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Another great mod was released

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  • DethonDethon Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 56
    sieah said:



    Don't be naive.


    CA have to prevent catastrophic failures that can occur with such a implementation such as crashes, freezes, and lock ups. The solution to the modders is a clever one that I'm sure CA looked into, but it's not exactly a secure and bug free implementation either which the modder is not responsible for whereas CA is. So your sarcasm is unnecessary.
    .

    So, they cant fix catastrophic bugs either, they also cant implement simple solutions, so actually what CAN they do?
    Dethon said:



    I'm a paid, professional developer and I would NOT implement this kind of solution (unless the situation is extremely dire, which this isn't).

    As for the reasons; it's bad design, bug prone and introduces maintenance overhead. That alone screams "don't touch me with a 10 foot pole".

    Well if youre a pro isnt it your job to implement it without bugs?


    It doesn't work like that, If you are a pro your job is to engineer effective solutions, and that "effective" includes easily maintainable and resilient. The cloning solution seems to be neither of those.

    Implementing this kind of band-aids in a large project quickly adds up and ends up becoming a mess where only the original coder knows how to maintain it (and sometimes, after some time, not even him).
    That's not acceptable in a context where lots of different people work on the same project and where people can come and leave constantly.

    I'm not saying they shouldn't solve the legendary lord confederation thing, just explaining why they probably want to engineer a proper solution to do so.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,070
    I don't see why people who are pointing out reasonable concerns are getting flagged here. The mod author has said there will be issues from time to time with this kind of solution. CA have to consider stability, If they added in something for a fairly minor issue (and it is minor, even if it's annoying) that caused the game to crash then they'd get way more blow-back than just leaving the annoyance in place.

    A mod can be really good and still not belong in the vanilla game.
  • sieahsieah Registered Users Posts: 1,051
    edited May 2018
    The solution is neither resilient or effective- Norsca, tons of annoying bugs in both SP and MP.
    So its basically a swiss cheese and youre telling me they cant implement something as simple as a reset skill event- yep., we are dealing with programming pros.
    Either youre on ca payroll or just being bored.
  • DethonDethon Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 56
    sieah said:

    The solution is neither resilient or effective- Norsca, tons of annoying bugs in both SP and MP.
    So its basically a swiss cheese and youre telling me they cant implement something as simple as a reset skill event- yep., we are dealing with programming pros.
    Either youre on ca payroll or just being bored.

    Yeah, I seem to be bored, just explaining it for those who care about the reasons why things happen. These insinuations, however, don't help with motivation :/

    You can believe what you want, but developers are human and therefore they make mistakes, even when striving for good solutions. Imagine if they didn't even try and just implemented whatever seemed easier.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    @Dethon why is the solution bad? It seems logical to me as a not coder.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 3,429
    edited May 2018
    Excuses , excuses it is their job to find a way to implement basic features that should have been there in the first place

    She had fought beside Aenarion in the days of her youth, killing daemons, slaughtering the enemies of her people with wild abandon. She had cast spells and brewed poisons and worked out battle strategies for his armies. She had used her gift of visions to grant the elves victories innumerable.

    The so-called high elves had forgotten that now, preferring to cast her as the villain in the simple-minded morality plays they so enjoyed since her son had sundered the realm. They had no idea what it had cost to win those battles back when all thought the world was ending, or the price she had paid for victory.
  • makar55makar55 Registered Users Posts: 2,955

    Excuses , excuses it is their job to find a way to implement basic features that should have been there in the first place

    I think we don't have it in the game due how the game is working. Like some games they are sensetive to changes. You put this small thing here and boom, you can't recruit troops any longer. For such things beeing implemented in next releases devs need to rework something.
  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,901
    edited May 2018
    When a major selling point is Legendary Lords, you can see why the community was fed when finding out halfway into the trilogy we'd lose out on getting most of them due to questionable decisions.

    CA implemented immortality (which I was not against) but did not tell anyone the consequences of such until backlash over these issues occurred. Had we known, I'd have agreed that they keep Immortality out of the game and look for other ways to reduce Assassination **** (Fu Skarsnik in particular...)
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,643
    Dethon said:

    sieah said:

    Zilong said:


    There is a thread on reddit where the creator of the mod basically says that CA was, in fact, not lying about the impossibility of skill resets and confederating. Essentially, they said that the mod effectively just bypasses everything by creating a clone of the legendary lord, rather than actually transferring the actual lord from the current campaign.

    That explains everything, cloning is apparently only possible for the modders, paid professional cant help you here, sir.
    Thanks man, are you a genius or something cause u smart man.
    I'm a paid, professional developer and I would NOT implement this kind of solution (unless the situation is extremely dire, which this isn't).

    As for the reasons; it's bad design, bug prone and introduces maintenance overhead. That alone screams "don't touch me with a 10 foot pole".
    What have you developed?
  • DethonDethon Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 56
    MrJade said:

    @Dethon why is the solution bad? It seems logical to me as a not coder.

    I'll be making some assumptions based on the mod's script (thank you to the author for publishing it by the way). I can't know what methods CA has at its disposal to do this.

    The problem isn't the cloning itself (even if it's not ideal) in my opinion. It can bring some problems if you want to transfer the character's state too (items, skills, traits...) as you'd have to replicate them too, but it could be a sensible approach given the right circumstances.

    The main problem I see is that the game doesn't seem to be able to distinguish between legendary lords and ordinary characters, forcing the mod to maintain a list of importable characters for each faction and sub-faction. This is bad because every time a change is made to a sub-faction or legendary lord there is a chance this seemingly unrelated piece of code will break.

    This may seem innocuous but bear in mind that there are likely multiple teams messing with game design/balance elements at any given point in time. That makes this list a highly volatile piece of code, which in turn increases the likeability of bugs.

    Another reason is that this approach is not straightforward at all as it takes character data and brings it to a completely different, unrelated place. This forces you to rely on documentation to tell current and future developers how they should maintain the game, and, news break, documentation breaks way more often than any other part of a program.
    It might not be that much of an issue right now with the current team but two years down the road, with new blood coming in and old blood leaving it'll become a problem.

    Another thing to bear in mind is the incompatibility of any custom faction/character mod with the feature. Even if that list is editable via a mod, only one would be able to change it at a time, causing more incompatibility problems, this time between mods.

    All in all, it's adding technical debt to your project. Moreso, it's adding technical debt for something completely nonurgent. Let's not pretend developers always have time to search for and implement the bests solutions, that's certainly not the case, but if you don't even strive for it when it's possible you'll definitely end up with a complete mess.
  • DethonDethon Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 56
    Itharus said:

    Dethon said:

    sieah said:

    Zilong said:


    There is a thread on reddit where the creator of the mod basically says that CA was, in fact, not lying about the impossibility of skill resets and confederating. Essentially, they said that the mod effectively just bypasses everything by creating a clone of the legendary lord, rather than actually transferring the actual lord from the current campaign.

    That explains everything, cloning is apparently only possible for the modders, paid professional cant help you here, sir.
    Thanks man, are you a genius or something cause u smart man.
    I'm a paid, professional developer and I would NOT implement this kind of solution (unless the situation is extremely dire, which this isn't).

    As for the reasons; it's bad design, bug prone and introduces maintenance overhead. That alone screams "don't touch me with a 10 foot pole".
    What have you developed?
    Game related? Nothing professionally. Just a toy level engine back in the day and a renderer to refresh my mathematical background (you tend to forget those things if you don't keep them fresh enough) Apart from that I'm just keeping up to date with DX features (pending DX12)

    Professionally I work on tools and services to automate old workflows within my workplace.
  • NeverBackDownNeverBackDown Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,870
    sieah said:

    The solution is neither resilient or effective- Norsca, tons of annoying bugs in both SP and MP.
    So its basically a swiss cheese and youre telling me they cant implement something as simple as a reset skill event- yep., we are dealing with programming pros.
    Either youre on ca payroll or just being bored.

    Can you please go learn some computer science before mocking professionals? It'll give you an idea how everything works. You'll probably retract that statement.

    As has been mentioned already it's not that they can't fix it. It's that the amount of effort it will take to fix it is the issue. They could address this or address 3 other issues in the game. Which would you rather have? Most would say the 3. So the 3 gets priority and this reset function gets put on the back burner.

    It's a simple logistical problem really. They will eventually fix it, the current game design however just wasn't made with a reset in mind and after 2 years of development going back to add it makes it difficult as everything has evolved together and trying to squeeze it in is the problem here.
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 4,171
    Also, keep in mind that there are two issues here. The respect issue and the confederating wounded LLs. Confederating wounded LLs is probably a lot easier than respecing skills, especially since confederating wounded LLs worked in TW1 after it was eventually added in.

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