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Next DLCs - Where’s the love?

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  • ErathilErathil Registered Users Posts: 812
    There are lots of DLC options after the next Lord Pack.
    • Revamp of naval warfare, with Dark Ark battlegrounds and dedicated naval production, if only on the Medieval II auto-resolve level of complexity.
    • More lord packs. Eltharion the Grim vs. Grom the Paunch gets tossed around a lot, and it would be an excellent way to add more depth and choices to both the high elves and the greenskins.
    • Monster packs, with special elite monsters recruited from the Monstrous Arcana or Storm of Magic book (like the Merwyrm, Arcane Phoenix, Dread Saurian, and Exalted Verminlord, to name a few).
    • A DLC that expands upon the magic system, maybe with more caster Lord choices and depth, possibly giving access to some uniquely powerful spells from the Storm of Magic to differentiate them from hero choices.
    As for a race pack... I think Araby is the most likely option. I'd give it at least 50-50 chances of being released before Total War Warhammer III (War for the Hammer).
    • The other top contenders are Kislev and the Southern Realms/Dogs of War/Tilea/Estalia/Badlands, and both of those options are based in the Old World, which make them better candidates for the third game.
    • Neither Albion or the Amazons (Almaxons?) make sense as a full faction because they're so small, out of the way, undeveloped in the lore, and have little interest in the outside world (although I could see mercenary units coming from these two later on).
    • Araby is currently occupied by Bretonnian filler-factions. It's notable that there's no technology for playable Bretonnian factions to confederate these crusader kingdoms, which implies that they aren't supposed to be around long enough for the option to be attractive in Mortal Empires.
    • Araby occupies an otherwise unremarkable corner of the map.
    • They're surrounded by a variety of races and have the possibility to create an engaging campaign.
    • Warmasters has given CA a baseline of what their army should look like (fast cavalry, elephants, camel cavalry, and lightly armed footsoldiers augmented by djinn, sorcerers, and elementals). Indeed, they're very reminiscent of Mideast/North-African armies CA has created for other games.
    • CA has shown they can create endearing factions outside of the core army books, ala Norsca.
    Really, there's a big Araby-shaped hole in the Vortex and Mortal Empires map that could be perfectly built upon with one new faction.

  • ErathilErathil Registered Users Posts: 812
    Goatforce said:


    But a theory of mine is that, if we are getting gods rather than unified DoC army, we may get Slaanesh this game. N'Kari has been teased pretty hard after all. Before I get jumped on I know we are probs getting DoC unified, just a musing of mine :tongue:. Would be cool to see N'Kari this game though, I guess if he/she isn't we know who the main antagonist of game 3 is likely to be.

    Huh, that's actually a good point.

    N'kari has been foreshadowed in the Vortex campaign endings. And the more I think about Daemons of Chaos, the less plausible they seem as their own, discrete army.

    But a Host of Slaanesh, with mortal warriors and daemons, led by Sigvald and/or N'kari, could work. As the least of the big four, they'd make the most sense as a preorder DLC. And since the fourth game will have to focus on the far east end of the map, while all of the tasty elf souls are in west, it would make sense to add them earlier while they can play havoc with the Vortex factions.
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,376
    To those who say that Araby doesn't have a full army list's worth of units:

    Araby has way more units in canon sources than just the Warmaster stuff. All of these units either exist or would be reasonable additions:

    Lords:
    -Sultan
    -Grand Vizier
    -Sorcerer/Magician
    -Caliph

    Heroes:
    -Emir
    -Sheik
    -Sorcerer/Magician
    -Assassin
    -Thief

    Mounts:
    -Arabyan Horse
    -Barded Arabyan Horse
    -Camel
    -Radiant Pegasus
    -Magic Carpet
    -Elephant
    -Djinn (spellcaster only)

    Infantry:
    -Spearmen
    -Swordsmen
    -Bowmen
    -Guards
    -Dervishes
    -Eunochs
    -Assassins
    -Corsairs
    -Handgunners*

    Cavalry:
    -Knights
    -Desert Riders
    -Urban/City Cavalry
    -Camels
    -Magic Carpets
    -Tuareg Bandits/Scouts (could also be infantry)

    Monsters:
    -Elephants
    -Djinn (5 types):
    -Sea-nymph
    -Tempest Djinn
    -Desert Spirit
    -Fire Efreet
    -Royal Djinn

    Artillery:
    -Bombards or some other type of early cannon*

    Legendary Lords:
    -The Great Sultan of Al Haikk
    -The Sultan of Lashiek/Copher/Martek
    -Sultan Jaffar
    -Al Muktar
    -The Golden Magus
    -Tazadis of Araby
    -The Wizard Caliph

    Mind you, this isn't an army list so much as a list of units that CA could pull from the lore. Still, with this much stuff, making an Arabyan roster shouldn't be too hard.

    A lot of these entries have a decent amount of lore about them, and some have even been portrayed in models and art, so there's not actually that much CA and GW would have to invent to make Araby's roster.

    *Though I haven't found any statted Arabyan gunpowder units, Araby is confirmed in the lore to use gunpowder weapons and have units that use them, but they're rarer and less developed than Old Worlder ones. These entries are my suggestions, but there are several ways that Arabyan gunpowder weapons could be represented. (I've heard talk of jezail-totting camel gunners in Warmaster, but I've found no evidence for them or even the source that they're supposedly from, so I'm skeptical that they exist.)
  • Aman3712Aman3712 Registered Users Posts: 514
    For possible game 2 race packs, I can honestly see Araby and Dogs of War being the best contenders in terms of being made. Seeing a race pack for Zombie Pirates would be a dream come true despite them being a faction, and although I would love to see Albion make it in, too, the chances of that happening is pretty unlikely.

    In terms of Kislev, depending on the direction CA ends up taking, I can either see them as being a pre-order bonus for like Norsca, or one of the four starting factions for game 3.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    Erathil said:

    Monster packs, with special elite monsters recruited from the Monstrous Arcana or Storm of Magic book (like the Merwyrm, Arcane Phoenix, Dread Saurian, and Exalted Verminlord, to name a few).
    Honestly, I could live without the Arcane Phoenix. It was basically the prototype rules for the Flamespyre, with a few additional options.

    (I'd also note that IIRC, a technology for confederating with the crusader factions was added with the Bretonnian technology revamp earlier this year.)

    To those who say that Araby doesn't have a full army list's worth of units:

    Araby has way more units in canon sources than just the Warmaster stuff. All of these units either exist or would be reasonable additions:
    {snipped for brevity}

    There's also the "Dread Daughters of Tariq from the Land of Assassins" mentioned in the Araby Warmaster list as an example of one of the more exotic counterparts to the "Guard" battalions.
  • NeoYasNeoYas Registered Users Posts: 665

    To those who say that Araby doesn't have a full army list's worth of units:

    Araby has way more units in canon sources than just the Warmaster stuff. All of these units either exist or would be reasonable additions:

    You didn't mention Fatandira, isn't she loreful?



  • FinCthulhuFinCthulhu Registered Users Posts: 138
    Draxynnic said:

    There's also the "Dread Daughters of Tariq from the Land of Assassins" mentioned in the Araby Warmaster list as an example of one of the more exotic counterparts to the "Guard" battalions.

    Easy RoR for Arabyan Guard. Heavy armour, dual scimitars with bonus vs. infantry?

    +++ HOPE IS THE FIRST STEP ON THE ROAD TO DISAPPOINTMENT +++
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,797
    Don't worry, we'll be getting another race DLC.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • chrissher7chrissher7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,038
    edited May 2018

    To those who say that Araby doesn't have a full army list's worth of units:

    Araby has way more units in canon sources than just the Warmaster stuff. All of these units either exist or would be reasonable additions:

    Lords:
    -Sultan
    -Grand Vizier
    -Sorcerer/Magician
    -Caliph

    Heroes:
    -Emir
    -Sheik
    -Sorcerer/Magician
    -Assassin
    -Thief

    Mounts:
    -Arabyan Horse
    -Barded Arabyan Horse
    -Camel
    -Radiant Pegasus
    -Magic Carpet
    -Elephant
    -Djinn (spellcaster only)

    Infantry:
    -Spearmen
    -Swordsmen
    -Bowmen
    -Guards
    -Dervishes
    -Eunochs
    -Assassins
    -Corsairs
    -Handgunners*

    Cavalry:
    -Knights
    -Desert Riders
    -Urban/City Cavalry
    -Camels
    -Magic Carpets
    -Tuareg Bandits/Scouts (could also be infantry)

    Monsters:
    -Elephants
    -Djinn (5 types):
    -Sea-nymph
    -Tempest Djinn
    -Desert Spirit
    -Fire Efreet
    -Royal Djinn

    Artillery:
    -Bombards or some other type of early cannon*

    Legendary Lords:
    -The Great Sultan of Al Haikk
    -The Sultan of Lashiek/Copher/Martek
    -Sultan Jaffar
    -Al Muktar
    -The Golden Magus
    -Tazadis of Araby
    -The Wizard Caliph

    Mind you, this isn't an army list so much as a list of units that CA could pull from the lore. Still, with this much stuff, making an Arabyan roster shouldn't be too hard.

    A lot of these entries have a decent amount of lore about them, and some have even been portrayed in models and art, so there's not actually that much CA and GW would have to invent to make Araby's roster.

    *Though I haven't found any statted Arabyan gunpowder units, Araby is confirmed in the lore to use gunpowder weapons and have units that use them, but they're rarer and less developed than Old Worlder ones. These entries are my suggestions, but there are several ways that Arabyan gunpowder weapons could be represented. (I've heard talk of jezail-totting camel gunners in Warmaster, but I've found no evidence for them or even the source that they're supposedly from, so I'm skeptical that they exist.)

    Yeah it is very possible to do araby. Would prefer them to dogs of war honestly as well because they would bring more new to the table.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901

    Draxynnic said:

    There's also the "Dread Daughters of Tariq from the Land of Assassins" mentioned in the Araby Warmaster list as an example of one of the more exotic counterparts to the "Guard" battalions.

    Easy RoR for Arabyan Guard. Heavy armour, dual scimitars with bonus vs. infantry?

    Could be RoR, could be a regular (but elite) unit. Warmaster did abstract out most elite units, after all.
  • HarkovastHarkovast Registered Users Posts: 1,872
    Chaos Dwarves are known for the patience.
    There is no need to rush to their inevitable victory...
    For The Lady, for Manann, for Bordeleaux!
  • LudboneLudbone Registered Users Posts: 1,191
    Southern Realms or DoW, please.
    Beastmen: where is the love?


  • AngmirAngmir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,253

    CA has already confirmed that there will be more races without army books similar to Norsca will be added to the game.

    The factions that have enough information to work with that still have a place on the WH2 vortex map are likely Dogs of War, Araby, and the Vampire Coast.

    Why FFS people keep mentioning Vampire Cost as a DLC. Vampire Cost is not a new race ! They are no more special than Karak Zorn Dwarfs ....

    At very best they could be FLC or a minor part of a DLC - there is after all nothing special about them other than new starting possition ...
    If they would EVER deserve any special unique units end such - those would be naval units, and they ARENT in game at all !

    If we ever need another Vampire Counts LL (becouse they clearly have so few of them) it would be Neferata, then Nagash (who would be justrified as separate "race")

    But theese wont happen at all or at least in WH2 development cycle.


    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Only real "faction" DLCs that can come to WH2 are

    Araby
    Southern Realms (with many DoW units in their roster)

    And thats it.

    Very improbable and fringe options would be:

    Amazons
    Cult of Slanesh (DE Slanesh)


    Araby and Southern Realms I would LOVE to see, game IMHO will not be compleate with Tilea and Estalia having generic Empire roosters.
    It breaks the immersion of the game, and I realy hope that in the end it will be fixed, with minor countries having some sort of individuality to them.

    Current ME map needs.

    Araby 1 or 2 playable factions - A MUST
    Tilea 1 faction - A MUST
    Estalia 1 faction - A MUST
    Akendorf 1 faction - Optional
    New World Colonist DOW faction - Optional
    Middenheim 1 faction - A MUST
    Mousilon 1 faction (with unique Undead Bretonnian units) - Optional
    Kislev with 1 starting position but 2 LL - A MUST
    Cult of Slanesh DE faction - Optional


    More LL

    1 more Wood Elf LL (sisters preferably) - NEEDED
    1 more Empire LL with new starting position(besides Boris) - NEEDED
    1 more Greenskins faction - Optional
    Thorek Ironbrow and playable Karak Azul - VERY NEEDED
    Skavenblight Faction (Tranquol) - VERY NEEDED
    Hell Pit (Clan Moulder)- NEEDED
    Clan Eshin - Optional
    Caledor with Imrik the Dragon Prince. - NEEDED (Caledor ftw - DLC with Dragon Mages and Dragon Princes on Drakes unit)
    Malus Darkblade DE Faction - NEEDED
    Itza with Lord Kroak - VERY NEEDED almost certain
    Cult of Sotek Faction (Tehenhuain) - NEEDED


    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Later if we realy gonna get expansion to the east with Mountains of Mourn we will need

    Factions
    4 Chaos God Factions (not Deamons as separate faction but instead factions divided by Gods)
    Chaos Dwarfs 1-2 Factions
    Hob Gobbla Khan 1 Faction
    Ogre Kingdoms 2 Factions
    Nagash 1 Faction
    Possibly a new Greenskin faction from the Dark Lands (or moving existing Lords there)

    Chaos Will be totaly reworked. It will no longer be a hord, but a new system with 5 Huge Central Strongholds in the Chaos Wastes each controled by 1 faction, and a System of defiling Cities simmilar to that of Norscans - builing Shrines to Chaos in conquered Landmarks and Fortresses in few key provinces etc.

    Each of 5 Chaos Factions would be Ruled by Diffrent LL. Player when choosing LL will be also choosing afiliation with particular God or choose to stay Undivided. Other Chaos LLs Player didnt choose will take their own Gods diffrent than a player.
    By razing and Conquering he will gein favour in other gods he didnt choose , and once getting enough - he will be able to challenge a Champion of that God and therefore Consolidate that Faction with your own, untill you are oficialy the Champion of All Gods and truely Chaos Undivided.

    Choosing a starting God will ofc affect your units, buildings, bonuses or even mechanics.
  • 4uk4ata4uk4ata Registered Users Posts: 897
    edited May 2018
    @Angmir - Honestly, as much as I love Estalia... they don't have anyone who could be a legendary lord. They have next to no named characters at all, frankly. Tilea has 3 easy choices - Borgio, Lucrecia, Lorenzo Lupo - and even the Border Princedoms have Lietpold the Black, but is just nothing for Estalia unless CA digs very deep. Putting a Tilean character in charge of an Estalian faction would feel wrong.

    Land is Kislev, Kislev is Land! We are Kislev!

    Proud Elspeth von Draken partisan
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799
    Red_Dox said:



    "But ma Vampire Coast"... is a VC faction. And a faction can't be a own race DLC by default.
    "But my Nagash..." is a pipe dream. First Nagashizzar is again not covered on Vortex and then the whole Tomb King agenda really crushed any hopes for Nagash himself.
    - Vampire Coast could be a race, if CA implements it as a race pack. That is simple as that. There's litterally no restiction for that, except maybe small Coast official roster, but same could be said about Araby. Vamps are not resticted as Empire provinces or even Human races and Vampire Coast has different approach to most of Vampire Counts basic elements.
    - Tomb Kings agenda didn't crush nothing for Game 3. But I think Nagash should be FLC for Game 3 not like DLC race pack, since no that much to add.
    - Agree about Sartosa and Kislev, though.
    - DoW is most likely. Araby has chances, if DoW won't be released, but if DoW would be released Araby would have less priority, than Vampire Coast.
    Overall setting priority for expanding world is for magic races/factions, imo, rather than for humans in magic world. Human races, I assume would be added, when needed at least (aka in Game 3), We have 1 optional slot for Game 2 for human race, but second human race for Game 2 would be rudimental for setting, especially if something else won't be added (Hob-goblins as a race, Vampire Coast as a race any other magical faction as a race).

    @Tyrionpeep
    Will we be getting a race at all for DLC for Game 2? Not counting any that comes as a preorder bonus thing for Game 3. I doubt it.

    Nothing is 100% guaranteed at this point. Tehnically with Game 1+Game 2 content, CA doesn't need anything else, but Devs may add something as an optional stuff to expand world, like it was with Norsca or with Bretonnia.

    Most likely for Game 2:
    - DoW (as mixed faction)
    - Vampire Coast (race pack or expansion for Counts)
    - Araby (especially, if DoW won't be realeased, might be higher, than Coast, alternatively could be part of Human Colonies DLC)
    - DoW (as Empire-like faction, even if we count that they have official TT edition, since in that case they would have lesser value for setting even, than Araby)
    - ...??? That's basically it.

    I think a lot of stuff depends from how CA Devs would implement Game 3 and how far they want to expand world. Also it matters, would they go for community demands or for accessible factions, which have playable versions in TT (Old versions of TT, Warmaster, White Dwarf) or for all possible options (including lore one).

    If Game 3 default pack would be:
    - Kislev or Cathay
    - Ogre Kingdoms
    - Chaos Dwarfs
    - Daemons of Chaos

    Then it might be DoW/Araby and Vampire Coast or even DoW (mixed race pack), Vampire Coast (race pack) and Araby (race pack).

    If it would be something like this for Game 3 default pack:
    -Daemons of Chaos 4 race packs
    -Kislev pre-order

    Then we might not get any race packs at all for Game 2, except for Kislev, (but Kislev binded to OW map part and 4 Daemons races for base game doesn't sound reasonable, so I would stick with 1 version).
    There could be Ogres or Chaos Dwarfs as pre-order...but here I can't say that much. Those two would be most likely to be impelented, so they out of any rat race competition and would probably be in Game as part of Game 3 base pack or as Game 2/3 DLC.

    Game 3 possible race packs:
    - Hob-goblins (race pack, either would be sub-faction; could present missing GS content too)
    - Nagash (probably FLC, either would be FLC lord for Tomb Kings in worst case cenario)

    Very unlikely as own race packs in Game 2 or Game 3:
    - Middleland (probably could be sub-faction or even race pack, but it's way more unlikely as race pack, than Vampire Coast race pack, since Middleland is part of Empire "realms" and binded to it in lore way more, than any vampire to Von Carstein from TT)
    - Vampire Bloodlines (while I want them to be separate races - objectively speaking, there isn't much hope for that and not because it's too much resticted with lore, but just because not enough core units in official sources to justify fodder variation elements brought from Von Carstein TT, so probably would be sub-factions, if would be added)
    - Mousillon (not that much content, at best would be sub-faction of Counts, if there won't be some additional stuff from Wiki/RPG stuff added - only in that case with CA devs involvement into creating some variations - could become separate race)
    - Amazons (Could be part of Colonies DLC to expand other rosters)
    - Tilea, Estalia (would probably be part of DoW or would be fullfilled with DoW units)
    - Ind, Nippon etc. (not that much actual units almost all content hidden in lore, if presented - at best would be part of Colonies DLC)
    - Halflings and some others (could be part of some DLC/FLC, which expands magic creatures)

    Also, I think that Araby/Cathay vs Kislev/DoW would be defined with what CA devs would prefer: to expand further European-like races with different flavor, or start to integrate other cultures with their own flavor.
    They all could be added, but that:
    - would bloat setting with human races (6 Human races+a lot of Human-like elements in magical races), but people could argue that there would be 5 Chaos races as well
    - would require big differentiation between those...problematic in general (would require more mechanics based on culture aspects)
    - and would require a lot of stuff to make Empire look like a core Human race, not just one of them for setting (could be ignored or again refered to same 5 Chaos races and DoW as part of them)

    So tehnically there are a lot of options, but not even one 100% sure for Game 2, except for LM/Skaven DLC and few FLC.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,255

    Likely Factions for game 2:

    - Southern Realms --> Tilea/Estalia/Border Princes combined with Dogs of War, have been heavily hinted at, Sartosa and new World colonies are in nexus map (both southern realms factions)

    The hints for southern realms are extreme so far ...going from unique building icons stating the faction, traits of "nobles" stating it as well as norsca and wood elve techs

    - Araby --> Likely to be pre-order bonus faction similar to Norsca (both had warmaster armies, stuff in the magazins but aren`t major factions)

    Factions for Game 3:

    - Daemons of Chaos
    - Ogre Kingdoms
    - Chaos Dwarves
    - I would expect Kislev as the 4th... as only "good" faction", if they

    Other factions:

    God-Specific Chaos Factions --> Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch

    There's also the unwashed Gnoblar Hordes (for OK), Hobgobbo Khanate (for CD), Kurgans (WoC/Norsca hybrid leftovers) and Be'lakor's faction of Daemons I guess if he's not core. Not exactly amazing prospects but there ya go.
    Well Bel`akor would be daemons of chaos

    I doubt that hobgobbo khanate or kurgans will be playable.

    Norsca happened because they were able to put some really cool stuff and outright iconic things in there like the mammoth, werekin etc.

    But what would Kurgan get NEW!?

    Southern Realms has the dogs of war. Araby has elephants, djinns, flying carpets and camels. Kislev has Bear Cav, War Wagons, Icewitches and overall Kossack style etc.

    but what would kurgans get?

    Even vampire coast and albion has better chances because of stuff such as the zoans, giant craps, undead pirates etc. being a bit more exciting.
  • BardicInquisitionBardicInquisition Registered Users Posts: 1,138

    Likely Factions for game 2:

    - Southern Realms --> Tilea/Estalia/Border Princes combined with Dogs of War, have been heavily hinted at, Sartosa and new World colonies are in nexus map (both southern realms factions)

    The hints for southern realms are extreme so far ...going from unique building icons stating the faction, traits of "nobles" stating it as well as norsca and wood elve techs

    - Araby --> Likely to be pre-order bonus faction similar to Norsca (both had warmaster armies, stuff in the magazins but aren`t major factions)

    Factions for Game 3:

    - Daemons of Chaos
    - Ogre Kingdoms
    - Chaos Dwarves
    - I would expect Kislev as the 4th... as only "good" faction", if they

    Other factions:

    God-Specific Chaos Factions --> Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch

    There's also the unwashed Gnoblar Hordes (for OK), Hobgobbo Khanate (for CD), Kurgans (WoC/Norsca hybrid leftovers) and Be'lakor's faction of Daemons I guess if he's not core. Not exactly amazing prospects but there ya go.
    Well Bel`akor would be daemons of chaos

    I doubt that hobgobbo khanate or kurgans will be playable.

    Norsca happened because they were able to put some really cool stuff and outright iconic things in there like the mammoth, werekin etc.

    But what would Kurgan get NEW!?

    Southern Realms has the dogs of war. Araby has elephants, djinns, flying carpets and camels. Kislev has Bear Cav, War Wagons, Icewitches and overall Kossack style etc.

    but what would kurgans get?

    Even vampire coast and albion has better chances because of stuff such as the zoans, giant craps, undead pirates etc. being a bit more exciting.
    Yes, obviously shadow lord of shadowy daemons' loin-shadow would be some sort of DoC extension.

    Hobgobbo Khanate will be a gimped CD roster using only its Hobgoblin units with maybe a unique generic Lord type of Hobgoblin chieftain, like pre-Norsca DLC Norsca using Chaos leftovers. But you try telling that one Hobgoblin fan around here that they won't be playable!

    Norsca cannibalized WoC and Forge World material, tbh the Kurgans could share many of the units that the Norscans received but I don't really care either way and calling the bloody Werekin 'iconic' is just lulzy. Mammoth sure, I'll agree to an extent, but not the werewolves of Chaos.

    Kurgans get horses and horse archery! Yes, it's very amazing. Like an evil Rohan mixed with Conan the Barbarian. I don't see why they can't get the War Mammoth though, the Dolgans were the ones fielding them (nearly identical to the ones Norsca field in TWW) in the Tamurkhan supplement and those had rules.

    Exciting giant craps?



    And Albion would be best consigned to the obsolete bin.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,255
    If kurgans borrow all whats cool about them from other race packs... then why should they be a race thats playable themselves?

    That doesn`t make sense.


    look, Araby has Elephants, Camels and Djinns as "cool stuff"

    Norsca has Mammoths, Werekin and Fimir

    Warriors of Chaos have Dragonogres and ehm.... ehm....well.... no Skullcrushers, no Chaos Warshrine, no Striders....ehm....... chaos spawn before beastmen got them too?^^ ..Manticores?.....

    If Kurgans are a race pack... and they consisted mostly of cool stuff from other factions, then there is no point to buy it... Wulfrik and Throgg are way more famous than any kurgan dude you could give them.
  • SephlockSephlock Registered Users Posts: 2,382
    Actually come to think of it... after seeing what happened with the Skaven (No Jezzails or Ratling guns for quite a while), can we all agree to revolt if the Ogres come out without Leadbelchers?
    #JusticeForUshoran #RuneGolems #RuneGuardians #ShardDragons #Thunderbarges #Stormfiends #BigMonsters #MoreDakka
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    Angmir said:

    CA has already confirmed that there will be more races without army books similar to Norsca will be added to the game.

    The factions that have enough information to work with that still have a place on the WH2 vortex map are likely Dogs of War, Araby, and the Vampire Coast.

    Why FFS people keep mentioning Vampire Cost as a DLC. Vampire Cost is not a new race ! They are no more special than Karak Zorn Dwarfs ....

    At very best they could be FLC or a minor part of a DLC - there is after all nothing special about them other than new starting possition ...
    If they would EVER deserve any special unique units end such - those would be naval units, and they ARENT in game at all !

    If we ever need another Vampire Counts LL (becouse they clearly have so few of them) it would be Neferata, then Nagash (who would be justrified as separate "race")
    Because the Vampire Coast did actually have a separate list on the tabletop (from a White Dwarf article). Do a search on "vampire coast army list", and you'll get a free PDF download as the first hit.

    Said list, while having a lot in common with the regular Vampire Counts, is thematically distinct, particularly with the presence of ranged units (albeit ones that are about as likely to hurt themselves with misfires as the enemy).

    This is in contrast to the 'bloodline' lists, which pretty much draw straight from the regular list with at most a couple of unique units added on (something we're seeing being done now with the High Elves, with both Alarielle and Alith Anar receiving unique units).

    Now, the Vampire Coast list could also be done simply by granting the Vampire Coast a few special units and bonuses to zombies, but having a separate list on the tabletop (in addition to Luther Harkon being crazy and paranoid enough that one could argue that he wouldn't confederate with other vampires) does give reason to think that they might work as a separate list.
  • BardicInquisitionBardicInquisition Registered Users Posts: 1,138

    If kurgans borrow all whats cool about them from other race packs... then why should they be a race thats playable themselves?

    That doesn`t make sense.


    look, Araby has Elephants, Camels and Djinns as "cool stuff"

    Norsca has Mammoths, Werekin and Fimir

    Warriors of Chaos have Dragonogres and ehm.... ehm....well.... no Skullcrushers, no Chaos Warshrine, no Striders....ehm....... chaos spawn before beastmen got them too?^^ ..Manticores?.....

    If Kurgans are a race pack... and they consisted mostly of cool stuff from other factions, then there is no point to buy it... Wulfrik and Throgg are way more famous than any kurgan dude you could give them.

    Dude normal elephants aren't cool anymore with their bigger cousins around, camels only spit and stink, and genies are cool for fans of the late Robin Williams I suppose.

    Chaos Warriors have Sigvald, his glowing Slaaneshi-asschaps are cooler than everything else in that 'race' combined.

    And borrowing between playable factions is totally cool, CA's been doing it with faction mechanics and so far it's been working like a charm.

    As for the LLs, the Kurgan have the utterly cool Sayl the Faithless:



    Look at this smooth criminal.

    And of course, the macho badass himself VARDEK CROM THE CONQUEROR



    Norsca's 2 troglodyte WoC political party hoppers wish they were CROM!

    Finally, who said the Kurgan would be paid DLC? NO, they would be funded by China.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,360
    Draxynnic said:

    Angmir said:

    CA has already confirmed that there will be more races without army books similar to Norsca will be added to the game.

    The factions that have enough information to work with that still have a place on the WH2 vortex map are likely Dogs of War, Araby, and the Vampire Coast.

    Why FFS people keep mentioning Vampire Cost as a DLC. Vampire Cost is not a new race ! They are no more special than Karak Zorn Dwarfs ....

    At very best they could be FLC or a minor part of a DLC - there is after all nothing special about them other than new starting possition ...
    If they would EVER deserve any special unique units end such - those would be naval units, and they ARENT in game at all !

    If we ever need another Vampire Counts LL (becouse they clearly have so few of them) it would be Neferata, then Nagash (who would be justrified as separate "race")
    Because the Vampire Coast did actually have a separate list on the tabletop (from a White Dwarf article). Do a search on "vampire coast army list", and you'll get a free PDF download as the first hit.
    We had also lists for Middenland or Hellpit. Middenland is still a faction of The Empire and Hellpit is a faction of Skaven. Neither of them are "a own race" and nobody should expect a race DLC concerning with them. Ever.

    ------Red Dox
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,797
    Kurgans seem as interesting as no thanks. They're just Norsca with even less lore.
    Sephlock said:

    Actually come to think of it... after seeing what happened with the Skaven (No Jezzails or Ratling guns for quite a while), can we all agree to revolt if the Ogres come out without Leadbelchers?

    If they're missing leadbelchers I'll riot.

    Most likely for DLC units are Yhetees and Gorgers / Maneaters depending which LL is the DLC. Given the small roster I'm hopeful they'll get everything and then extras like Rhinox Riders as DLC.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,255
    edited May 2018

    If kurgans borrow all whats cool about them from other race packs... then why should they be a race thats playable themselves?

    That doesn`t make sense.


    look, Araby has Elephants, Camels and Djinns as "cool stuff"

    Norsca has Mammoths, Werekin and Fimir

    Warriors of Chaos have Dragonogres and ehm.... ehm....well.... no Skullcrushers, no Chaos Warshrine, no Striders....ehm....... chaos spawn before beastmen got them too?^^ ..Manticores?.....

    If Kurgans are a race pack... and they consisted mostly of cool stuff from other factions, then there is no point to buy it... Wulfrik and Throgg are way more famous than any kurgan dude you could give them.

    Dude normal elephants aren't cool anymore with their bigger cousins around, camels only spit and stink, and genies are cool for fans of the late Robin Williams I suppose.

    Chaos Warriors have Sigvald, his glowing Slaaneshi-asschaps are cooler than everything else in that 'race' combined.

    And borrowing between playable factions is totally cool, CA's been doing it with faction mechanics and so far it's been working like a charm.

    Disagree on elephants. Yes they are smaller, hence higher numbers PLUS since araby has access to gunpowder, potential canon-elephants, armored war elephants etc. there are options to MAKE them cool.

    What you said is kinda like "lol how can werekin be cool if there are already dragonogres"... they are cool in their own right.

    And Camels.... armored Camels. I would go light to medium horse-riders and then medium to heavy camels as grinder-cav.

    Loved the camels in attilla.
  • BardicInquisitionBardicInquisition Registered Users Posts: 1,138

    If kurgans borrow all whats cool about them from other race packs... then why should they be a race thats playable themselves?

    That doesn`t make sense.


    look, Araby has Elephants, Camels and Djinns as "cool stuff"

    Norsca has Mammoths, Werekin and Fimir

    Warriors of Chaos have Dragonogres and ehm.... ehm....well.... no Skullcrushers, no Chaos Warshrine, no Striders....ehm....... chaos spawn before beastmen got them too?^^ ..Manticores?.....

    If Kurgans are a race pack... and they consisted mostly of cool stuff from other factions, then there is no point to buy it... Wulfrik and Throgg are way more famous than any kurgan dude you could give them.

    Dude normal elephants aren't cool anymore with their bigger cousins around, camels only spit and stink, and genies are cool for fans of the late Robin Williams I suppose.

    Chaos Warriors have Sigvald, his glowing Slaaneshi-asschaps are cooler than everything else in that 'race' combined.

    And borrowing between playable factions is totally cool, CA's been doing it with faction mechanics and so far it's been working like a charm.

    Disagree on elephants. Yes they are smaller, hence higher numbers PLUS since araby has access to gunpowder, potential canon-elephants, armored war elephants etc.

    And Camels.... armored Camels. I would go light to medium horse-riders and then medium to heavy camels as grinder-cav.

    Loved the camels in attilla.
    No....not the Timurids again!

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    Red_Dox said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Angmir said:

    CA has already confirmed that there will be more races without army books similar to Norsca will be added to the game.

    The factions that have enough information to work with that still have a place on the WH2 vortex map are likely Dogs of War, Araby, and the Vampire Coast.

    Why FFS people keep mentioning Vampire Cost as a DLC. Vampire Cost is not a new race ! They are no more special than Karak Zorn Dwarfs ....

    At very best they could be FLC or a minor part of a DLC - there is after all nothing special about them other than new starting possition ...
    If they would EVER deserve any special unique units end such - those would be naval units, and they ARENT in game at all !

    If we ever need another Vampire Counts LL (becouse they clearly have so few of them) it would be Neferata, then Nagash (who would be justrified as separate "race")
    Because the Vampire Coast did actually have a separate list on the tabletop (from a White Dwarf article). Do a search on "vampire coast army list", and you'll get a free PDF download as the first hit.
    We had also lists for Middenland or Hellpit. Middenland is still a faction of The Empire and Hellpit is a faction of Skaven. Neither of them are "a own race" and nobody should expect a race DLC concerning with them. Ever.

    ------Red Dox
    The Middenland and Hellpit lists (there's also a Pestilens list, incidentally) are essentially "more of the same"-type lists. There's nothing in any of those that wouldn't fit mixed into a standard Empire or Skaven list.

    Vampire Coast having ranged attacks and artillery, on the other hand, is making them very different from regular Vampire Counts, where lack of shooting is a distinctive weakness. Removing that weakness, from a balance perspective, does seem to be something that justifies giving up some of the other advantages and units that Vampires have, potentially calling for them to be a separate list rather than being an add-on to an existing one.

    The Vampire Coast is also clearly a separate polity which is largely isolated from the other Vampire factions, as opposed to Middenland (part of the Empire) and Clan Moulder (part of the Under-Empire, for all that's worth, and having trade agreements with other skaven).

    Now, I don't have an iron in the fire either way, but I can see it being a possibility.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,360
    Draxynnic said:

    Red_Dox said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Angmir said:

    CA has already confirmed that there will be more races without army books similar to Norsca will be added to the game.

    The factions that have enough information to work with that still have a place on the WH2 vortex map are likely Dogs of War, Araby, and the Vampire Coast.

    Why FFS people keep mentioning Vampire Cost as a DLC. Vampire Cost is not a new race ! They are no more special than Karak Zorn Dwarfs ....

    At very best they could be FLC or a minor part of a DLC - there is after all nothing special about them other than new starting possition ...
    If they would EVER deserve any special unique units end such - those would be naval units, and they ARENT in game at all !

    If we ever need another Vampire Counts LL (becouse they clearly have so few of them) it would be Neferata, then Nagash (who would be justrified as separate "race")
    Because the Vampire Coast did actually have a separate list on the tabletop (from a White Dwarf article). Do a search on "vampire coast army list", and you'll get a free PDF download as the first hit.
    We had also lists for Middenland or Hellpit. Middenland is still a faction of The Empire and Hellpit is a faction of Skaven. Neither of them are "a own race" and nobody should expect a race DLC concerning with them. Ever.

    ------Red Dox
    The Middenland and Hellpit lists (there's also a Pestilens list, incidentally) are essentially "more of the same"-type lists. There's nothing in any of those that wouldn't fit mixed into a standard Empire or Skaven list.

    Vampire Coast having ranged attacks and artillery, on the other hand, is making them very different from regular Vampire Counts, where lack of shooting is a distinctive weakness. Removing that weakness, from a balance perspective, does seem to be something that justifies giving up some of the other advantages and units that Vampires have, potentially calling for them to be a separate list rather than being an add-on to an existing one.

    The Vampire Coast is also clearly a separate polity which is largely isolated from the other Vampire factions, as opposed to Middenland (part of the Empire) and Clan Moulder (part of the Under-Empire, for all that's worth, and having trade agreements with other skaven).

    Now, I don't have an iron in the fire either way, but I can see it being a possibility.
    I would agree that a Luthor Harkon Zombie Pirate list plays different then a generic VC list. But so does a Hellpit List against a generic Skaven list or a Goblin list against against a generic O&G army. And it changes nothing for the fact that Vampire Coast Undead are NOT a own race. Same as Middenland is not a own race, same as Hellpit Skaven are not a own race, same as The Moot would not be a own race. They all are factions. There is not one faction so far having a race dlc with 2-4 LLs, their own whatever gameplay mechanics and a full & complete different roster. Norsca was and is a race and got a race treatment before anyone screams blood murder. Every other race dlc covers an armybook aka a own race. As long as CA will not change their current dlc policy, it will not happen that a faction gets a race dlc.

    And when people discuss race DLCs it is still annoying if we always go back to "but ma faction is da best and deserves race treatment because...reasons!". Even CA did it right the scond time and made the race/faction differentiation obvious which *should* make this whole conversation obsolete.

    But still, here we are.

    ------Red Dox

  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014
    @Angmir

    Vampire Coast is to Vampire Counts, as Empire is to Bretonia.

    They are the same "race" but are two different factions with unique units, lords, and potential mechanics.
  • MrJadeMrJade Senior Member Lansing, MIRegistered Users Posts: 7,165
    @Zergles no it isn't. Vampire Coast is a subfaction of the Counts. It was presented in the White Dwarf in that manner.
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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    Red_Dox said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Red_Dox said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Angmir said:

    CA has already confirmed that there will be more races without army books similar to Norsca will be added to the game.

    The factions that have enough information to work with that still have a place on the WH2 vortex map are likely Dogs of War, Araby, and the Vampire Coast.

    Why FFS people keep mentioning Vampire Cost as a DLC. Vampire Cost is not a new race ! They are no more special than Karak Zorn Dwarfs ....

    At very best they could be FLC or a minor part of a DLC - there is after all nothing special about them other than new starting possition ...
    If they would EVER deserve any special unique units end such - those would be naval units, and they ARENT in game at all !

    If we ever need another Vampire Counts LL (becouse they clearly have so few of them) it would be Neferata, then Nagash (who would be justrified as separate "race")
    Because the Vampire Coast did actually have a separate list on the tabletop (from a White Dwarf article). Do a search on "vampire coast army list", and you'll get a free PDF download as the first hit.
    We had also lists for Middenland or Hellpit. Middenland is still a faction of The Empire and Hellpit is a faction of Skaven. Neither of them are "a own race" and nobody should expect a race DLC concerning with them. Ever.

    ------Red Dox
    The Middenland and Hellpit lists (there's also a Pestilens list, incidentally) are essentially "more of the same"-type lists. There's nothing in any of those that wouldn't fit mixed into a standard Empire or Skaven list.

    Vampire Coast having ranged attacks and artillery, on the other hand, is making them very different from regular Vampire Counts, where lack of shooting is a distinctive weakness. Removing that weakness, from a balance perspective, does seem to be something that justifies giving up some of the other advantages and units that Vampires have, potentially calling for them to be a separate list rather than being an add-on to an existing one.

    The Vampire Coast is also clearly a separate polity which is largely isolated from the other Vampire factions, as opposed to Middenland (part of the Empire) and Clan Moulder (part of the Under-Empire, for all that's worth, and having trade agreements with other skaven).

    Now, I don't have an iron in the fire either way, but I can see it being a possibility.
    I would agree that a Luthor Harkon Zombie Pirate list plays different then a generic VC list. But so does a Hellpit List against a generic Skaven list or a Goblin list against against a generic O&G army. And it changes nothing for the fact that Vampire Coast Undead are NOT a own race. Same as Middenland is not a own race, same as Hellpit Skaven are not a own race, same as The Moot would not be a own race. They all are factions. There is not one faction so far having a race dlc with 2-4 LLs, their own whatever gameplay mechanics and a full & complete different roster. Norsca was and is a race and got a race treatment before anyone screams blood murder. Every other race dlc covers an armybook aka a own race. As long as CA will not change their current dlc policy, it will not happen that a faction gets a race dlc.

    And when people discuss race DLCs it is still annoying if we always go back to "but ma faction is da best and deserves race treatment because...reasons!". Even CA did it right the scond time and made the race/faction differentiation obvious which *should* make this whole conversation obsolete.

    But still, here we are.

    ------Red Dox

    Except that the majority of the difference with the examples you give is that certain elements have been removed. The all-Goblin list you cite, for instance, is just a subset of the O&G list. It's no different to running a Nagarythe list for High Elves by only using Spearmen, Archers, Silver Helms, and Shadow Warriors.

    The Middenheim and Hell Pit lists do go a bit further in introducing new units that aren't in the respective lists of the core races, but the units are broadly behaving the same way as the units of the core list do.

    Considering Middenland, Priests of Ulric are about as different from Warrior Priests as a Celestial Wizard is from a Light Wizard. Teutogen Guard are slightly better Greatswords with a weapon swap. Warriors of Ulric are just buffed State Troops with different weapon options, and Wolf-Kin are just another step up from Warriors of Ulric with Skirmish (and I'm not sure how TWW will distinguish melee skirmishers from regular melee troops). There's nothing in any of those that really breaks ground that the regular Empire list hasn't already tread. The most radical unit there is the Hunting Hounds, providing a cheap dedicated melee light cavalry equivalent. However, cavalry in general is already an Empire strength, so having what is essentially chaff cavalry is not a huge change. None of the fundamental Empire weaknesses are being covered by the new units in the Middenland list.

    Similarly, the Hell Pit list's monsters pretty much cover area that the basic Skaven list (particularly the 7E one) already covers. You've got some faster Giant Rats, some mutated beasts which are essentially infantry substitutes, assorted Rat Ogre variants, Trolls (which you'd essentially use as regenerating Rat Ogres), Aberrations (which you'd essentially use as unbreakable Rat Ogres), the Burrowing Behemoth (essentially a smaller Hell Pit Abomination with Regeneration instead of tunneling) and the Chimaerat (a smaller Hell Pit Abomination with a breath weapon instead of Regeneration). There's a lot of variations on things the Skaven already do, but honestly, the biggest distinction is the presence of unbreakable units. Although, come to think on it, tabletop skaven had the rat swarms...

    In neither case do the new units address one of the core weaknesses of the base race. For instance, one of the weaknesses of both Empire and Skaven lists is that they lack flyers (Empire only has them on characters, and Skaven can't bring them at all), and neither variant list adds flyers into the mix. Middenheim doesn't grant non-character monsters to the Empire, and Hell Pit adds a lot of war beasts and monstrous infantry, but no true cavalry.

    Treating both as an expansion of the original race, a la Alarielle, Alith Anar, or Arkhan the Black, is fitting.

    The Vampire Coast, however, does go outside the normal range of Vampires. The big defining weakness of vampires is that they don't have shooting... at all. The Vampire Coast list adds zombie handgunners, zombie-wielded ersatz jezzails, and cannon. They may be highly inaccurate, but their very presence - if you'll excuse the expression - blows the "vampire armies have no shooting" concept out of the water. Where the Middenland and Hell Pit lists simply expand on what was already there, the Vampire Coast adds something that the Vampire Counts list is balanced according to the assumption that they don't have. It stands to reason, then, that the inclusion of these units should be balanced by the removal of something else that the vampires are used to having, such as their undead knights (notably absent among zombie pirates, for reasons that are probably obvious). Once you're both adding things and chopping out large chunks, then you're moving into "separate list" territory.

    All that said, though, I can see it being done by taking the Arkhan approach. However, I think it would be a more significant addition than any of the other units added to a race using the Arkhan approach. Giving handgunners (even inaccurate ones) and cannons to Vampires would be a bigger deal than giving forest spirits to High Elves from a balance perspective, and there are already people complaining about that. Making them a separate list avoids this issue by allowing the separate list to have its own weaknesses that balances the filling of the primary vampire weakness.

    But if they can do it as part of the core race without being OP? That also works, and is arguably more elegant from a 'vampires can still confederate' perspective.

    On the "but ma faction is the best" thing...

    Like I said in my last post: I don't have an iron in the fire here.

    From my own, personal, parochial perspective, I really don't care.

    Vampire Coast is not my faction. Vampires generally are not my faction. If a Vampire Coast race pack was to be introduced, there's a good chance I wouldn't bother buying it. If introduced as FLC, there's a good chance I'd never get around to playing it. Heck, I haven't even got around to playing regular vampires yet, and can't guarantee that I ever will.

    So on that basis, I think I can claim to be fairly objective here, since I'm advocating for something that I will probably never use myself.
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