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Time to ask about testing

uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
It's often good advice to wait because the game should get better as bugs are fixed and content added. But this is not longer always the case. Enough has been said about the slow patching rate, even with the official explanation from CA. The big issue is we perfectly know that new bugs are introduced or reintroduced, some of them of course being the kind hard to catch, other looking like big oversights. Not checking if a new character even have their dedicated skills? But the thing is this makes the game at times buggier than it was and we have no idea of when the situation will get better.

For recent examples, loyalty dilemma have been inactivated since the TK update and there is no news about them. Some ME character quest chains have been bugged since months and still are. Both are hard/impossible issues to fix by modding. I don't want to blame anyone, since we can highly suspect there is simply not enough people tasked to do what I would call the "follow-up" work. The new content team is working intensely but there is clearly an issue with how resources are stretched thin when it comes to this kind of maintenance work.

The question is, what can we do about it? Is there a way to make the topic important enough for CA or sega to start worrying about this? The whole trilogy goals are ambitious, but as this kind of oversights go on, they give a amateurish wibe on the whole endeavour. Can we expect to have to play campaign asap because some features may be broken in the future? There is quite a lot of talk about features/units for older factions, but it's only half the story. If they don't expend the time to fix even basic stuff that has been duly identified by players, even some times with fixes indication, what can we expect more.

Of course this is money that is not spent for shiny new stuff that can be sold, we get it. But it should matters in the long run. The game can't be straightened by mods alone.
What could happen with game 3? Can we expect most of the TW1 and 2 content to "maybe" work correctly in this game?
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  • TotalBorehammerTotalBorehammer Registered Users Posts: 1,126
    edited June 2018
    Use CA's Facebook page to raise awareness, companies generally can't ignore their social media and see it even if they don't respond to it. Hell, every employee probably "likes" the page so will see when people post stuff. https://www.facebook.com/CreativeAssembly/
    CA have a Facebook page... use the comments section of their posts and express your thoughts on ME poor quality/delays etc https://www.facebook.com/CreativeAssembly/ :)
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 32,288
    Was TWW1's patching better?

    I'm thinking Norsca and the delays in content we're seeing might play a role.
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  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 11,283
    How was Rich deserving of a flag there?

    Not got much of any suggestions. I’ve generally not experienced too many things over the course of 1300 hours played where I thought it needed a fix but since the Queen and the Crone I’ve had some problems with both graphical bugs and crashes which I never experienced before.

    Personally I wouldn’t mind a compilation of reported issues to see the full scope of things. No one goes to the section about bugs and reads about what is wrong with the game, people only go there, I assume, to write when they’ve experienced something. And even then if they are like me they don’t even do that because who can be arsed.
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  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
    @Vanilla_Gorilla : it's difficult for me to say. I was discovering game 1 and it's my contact with celtik and devling into modding that made apparent how many things were askew.
    With game 2 came something completely new : old content reintroduced, but bugged. I've postponed my game 2 campaigns until they would fix the big things like AR but now I've started to play I can't help to wonder about stuff that has been described as no longer working.

    Celtik just told me "just disband your lords when they loyalty reaches 0" WTF is there a system for this, then? They did create all the events and just let them lay dormant because they can't find someone to check why the triggering conditions don't work anymore? I know, it's a minor thing, but it's one among others.

    @RikRiorik : there are compilations. PlayersModders even have provided CA with lists of stuff they noticed. Some of them are fixed, but not all. Just check a mod like this one

    But that doesn't include things like old scripts being seldomly reworked. Usually events that include spawning armies won't get new units, for instance. The chaos invastion has been a mess for a while. They do update it, but at the glacial pace of content updates.
  • DerpyRoxasDerpyRoxas Registered Users Posts: 3,348
    Total War Warhammer 1 was patched way better.
    I think that the shifting of plans from moving to a "Expansion Trilogy" to a "Full Game" trilogy was poorly planned with consequences on cumulating work on patches.
    When a bug is reintroduced is because this was not seen in the precedent build of the game when testing started, so things are going to cumulate more and more the time goes on. I hope that CA use summer to fully dedicate to WH2 patching cycle and fix bugs and errors. Idk what is going on with community managing, but this is the first time in years that CA has gone fully silent for two weeks since the "Meh" siege patch of Rome 2 (I think it was the Seleucid one).

    Priorites from the community manager should be:

    1- Updated and complete FLC array. We know a bit of the content in the purple mist, it's purpose has been completely lost in the mean time, unless you want to hide something very big.
    2- Stop the teasing. Two Weeks for a unit, even if spectacular and beautiful, without daily news is a bit over stretching. This is not at CA fault, more on the community itself, which is, sorry, but it's just my opinion, more childish and bickering than ever.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
    The CM can show us only what is approved, but they can hopefully bring up the growing anguish about the patching situation.

    I agree that the trilogy model is certainly messing things up. The only redemtive qualities I find to this model is they can encourage steps forwards in the game (like the many QoL changes in TWW2) that may be skipped with only expansions. And they offer some neat campaign opportunities.

    But for the debugging/coherence of the whole thing and cross game content (DLC for DLC? Should we pay for previous race extensions in a future game, etc) it's a mess.
  • SantobubuSantobubu Member Registered Users Posts: 441
    edited June 2018
    The truth behing testing is altogether different and let me tell you my story of working for Sega Europe Limited as a localisation tester for Napoleon Total War in 2009.

    First of all, who are the testers and how are they organised ?

    The testing for all Sega titles is done in-House in London. Inside the office there is a division between localisation testers and functionnal testers.
    Please see for yourself the job spec here : //http://www.toplanguagejobs.co.uk/job/7132432/French-Localisation-QA-Tester?_orig=sea//

    They are pretty low indeed, it is an entry level job, meaning no experience is not a bad thing, it actually enabled me to get a foot through the door back then. The same applies for functional testing.
    So they do not employ highly skilled or automation Testers, there is often a need for training and for people to get used to the job.

    Why one might ask ?

    Well because your work conditions are just dreadful. You are on a zero hour contracts. Which means that Sega can write you off and send you to the job centre anytime. And the pay is around £9.50 an hour (I am not 100% sure, this was last year's figure), quite laughable for London. The work environment is one similar to factory, you have your badge ans need to key in your start time and your end time, shifts monitors ensure that your time record is umpeccable, understand that anytime you are late they give you **** and if you are off sick your sick leave pay is subject to a harsh return to work interview.
    Needless to say that the turnover is huge and that the system feeds off unqualified staff. The only ones brave enough to stay becomes Senior Testers or Test Leads and are made permanent staff.

    Now the atmosphere is amazing, it's 90% super kind geeks who love what they do and will go the extra mile to make the game better, except they are not empowered or trained to do so effciently. Countless bugs that I raised for Napoleon were not fixed as deemed lower priority although ulcerating for me as a TW fan given the chance to work on the product.

    So these lovely people are being exploited by Sega and worked to death with extreme overtime during peak time (pressure of the 0 hours contract) then kicked out to the job centre in downtime period. (My case and yes I am still bitter about it).

    You will usually work on a title e.g. a Total War one for a Build or a version of the product until its submission. Once the process is underway your work will be on another title. Then TW might fail and come back to testing, but not necessarely to your team, it might be another shift hoping on the project, showing a lack of consistency and regards for the people involved in the testing. Test leads that build Tests cases are usually swarmed with different games to tend to and therefore the documentation is very minimal.

    Comminucation between Production Team e.g. CA and the Test Team is usually pretty poor and done via a bug tracking software. A lot of information get lost there sometimes like how to replicate a bug or it was fixed 2 builds ago but now is back...

    So that's how the testing used to look like in 2009 and I suspect not much has evolved since then. I did notice however that CA was recruiting for in-House QA Engineers in Horsham to try to correct things but 1 or 2 people won't resolve this institutionalised poor practices.

    In short, CA is paying the price of SEGA's terrible testing standards.
    I hope that this shed some light on your worries in regards to the Testing for TW titles.

    Best regards
  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Registered Users Posts: 1,420
    https://www.creative-assembly.com/careers/view/all

    Here you can apply to help them. The game should get bug free in no time when a professional shows them how to do things correctly, I'm looking forward to see it. :joy:
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
    @Santobubu : thanks for the info. I should maybe retitle the topic. There are some issues with recent bugs that raise question about testing, but the meat of my complaint was about the resources put to fix the known bugs. Many of them aren't caused by arcane code interactions, but are akin to typos in the database.

    I don't want to speculate on how things are actually handled between CA and SEGA. We have only the end result to make ourselves an opinion.
    All considered this is an ambitious game but that doesn't deter creative assembly to work on several projets at once. It leaves the impression the teams are stretched thin at times.

    @GettoGecko : if you're satisfied with the polishing of the game, just say it.
  • 42konyo42konyo Registered Users Posts: 783
    Santobubu said:

    The truth behing testing is altogether different and let me tell you my story of working for Sega Europe Limited as a localisation tester for Napoleon Total War in 2009.

    First of all, who are the testers and how are they organised ?

    The testing for all Sega titles is done in-House in London. Inside the office there is a division between localisation testers and functionnal testers.
    Please see for yourself the job spec here : //http://www.toplanguagejobs.co.uk/job/7132432/French-Localisation-QA-Tester?_orig=sea//

    They are pretty low indeed, it is an entry level job, meaning no experience is not a bad thing, it actually enabled me to get a foot through the door back then. The same applies for functional testing.
    So they do not employ highly skilled or automation Testers, there is often a need for training and for people to get used to the job.

    Why one might ask ?

    Well because your work conditions are just dreadful. You are on a zero hour contracts. Which means that Sega can write you off and send you to the job centre anytime. And the pay is around £9.50 an hour (I am not 100% sure, this was last year's figure), quite laughable for London. The work environment is one similar to factory, you have your badge ans need to key in your start time and your end time, shifts monitors ensure that your time record is umpeccable, understand that anytime you are late they give you **** and if you are off sick your sick leave pay is subject to a harsh return to work interview.
    Needless to say that the turnover is huge and that the system feeds off unqualified staff. The only ones brave enough to stay becomes Senior Testers or Test Leads and are made permanent staff.

    Now the atmosphere is amazing, it's 90% super kind geeks who love what they do and will go the extra mile to make the game better, except they are not empowered or trained to do so effciently. Countless bugs that I raised for Napoleon were not fixed as deemed lower priority although ulcerating for me as a TW fan given the chance to work on the product.

    So these lovely people are being exploited by Sega and worked to death with extreme overtime during peak time (pressure of the 0 hours contract) then kicked out to the job centre in downtime period. (My case and yes I am still bitter about it).

    You will usually work on a title e.g. a Total War one for a Build or a version of the product until its submission. Once the process is underway your work will be on another title. Then TW might fail and come back to testing, but not necessarely to your team, it might be another shift hoping on the project, showing a lack of consistency and regards for the people involved in the testing. Test leads that build Tests cases are usually swarmed with different games to tend to and therefore the documentation is very minimal.

    Comminucation between Production Team e.g. CA and the Test Team is usually pretty poor and done via a bug tracking software. A lot of information get lost there sometimes like how to replicate a bug or it was fixed 2 builds ago but now is back...

    So that's how the testing used to look like in 2009 and I suspect not much has evolved since then. I did notice however that CA was recruiting for in-House QA Engineers in Horsham to try to correct things but 1 or 2 people won't resolve this institutionalised poor practices.

    In short, CA is paying the price of SEGA's terrible testing standards.
    I hope that this shed some light on your worries in regards to the Testing for TW titles.

    Best regards

    Thanks A LOT, this explains so much about everything related to TW tites and especially why all the older titles still have gamebreaking bugs to this day ( I can't even repair forts in Empire TW ****)
    I've always suspected something was horribly wrong with how the games where tested and the whole "but it's a sandbox you can't find all problems during testing" argument was rather weak considering you'd easily find a few bugs within the first couple of hours into a campaign, it's a shame they run QA like your random Telco runs it call center.

    Not sure if you can answer this but can you explain what the deal is with the automated QA they set up, afaik back during launch they said something along the lines of all QA testing is automated so they can run multiple simulations at once to be more efficient, is this something CA does in house before sending it to Sega QA or is it something entirely different?
  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Registered Users Posts: 1,420
    @Uriak I'm satisfied with their approach to give their best. Can they improve, sure they can. You know talk is cheap and it's fine that you aren't tired of repeating yourself claiming they could do better if they are only willing to, but it won't change anything. They do what they can and as long as they are keeping that up I'm fine with it, it doesn't matter that there are people unwillig to accept that developing is process with ups and downs.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
    edited June 2018
    Okay, let me repeat : I don't blame whoever does the testing and debugging. I understand it's not easy, I'm a dev myself.

    That said, two things have made me react lately :

    I've waited for months for things to settle in TWW2, in order to enjoy the campaigns at their best. I haven't complained about Norsca. But as my interest for the game is coming back, there is the reality that new bugs have been introduced or features broken and we have no idea if they'll be back. And I'm afraid this will only worsen.

    Some people who mod the game and spend lots of time on it have told me they were tired of catching frivolous errors. Of course there is no reason to force anyone to do this free work, but it's concerning.

    Maybe there is not way to raise SEGA attention about this at all. After all there is no other product like this one.
  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,897

    @Uriak I'm satisfied with their approach to give their best. Can they improve, sure they can. You know talk is cheap and it's fine that you aren't tired of repeating yourself claiming they could do better if they are only willing to, but it won't change anything. They do what they can and as long as they are keeping that up I'm fine with it, it doesn't matter that there are people unwillig to accept that developing is process with ups and downs.

    There are things that CA said were working, but are not... Do CA still believe they work since they have made no response on it? That is quite worrying for the long term for this trilogy.

    CA can be hard to predict since they've made it clear this whole process is as much learning for them as it is for anyone else. But this assumption that "They know best!" is counterproductive. If CA are looking to improve they need more from us than just blind faith that all will work out.
  • InquisitornInquisitorn Registered Users Posts: 98
    @uriak I don't know what what you have been developing, but it is probably something infinitely simpler than TW because I'm a dev too and I know from experience that big applications will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER be bugfree. Even if you work on it for an infinite amount of time with infinite resources. That's why issues have priorities and are addressed in order if importance and there are very few game breaking bugs in TW games and repairing forts is not a big issue, it's a nuisance. And being a sensible company CA will allocate resources to the game breaking issues and the new features that everybody is whining about being long overdue.

    Look, can you with your vast dev experience and insight just point to any comparable game (scale, diverse options) released in the past 5 years that has zero issues?
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 5,292

    @uriak I don't know what what you have been developing, but it is probably something infinitely simpler than TW because I'm a dev too and I know from experience that big applications will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER be bugfree. Even if you work on it for an infinite amount of time with infinite resources. That's why issues have priorities and are addressed in order if importance and there are very few game breaking bugs in TW games and repairing forts is not a big issue, it's a nuisance. And being a sensible company CA will allocate resources to the game breaking issues and the new features that everybody is whining about being long overdue.

    Look, can you with your vast dev experience and insight just point to any comparable game (scale, diverse options) released in the past 5 years that has zero issues?

    Its the same issues since launch though. The gate bug, the artillery bug and the reinforcement bug have been around for a while.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 11,341
    uriak said:

    It's often good advice to wait because the game should get better as bugs are fixed and content added. But this is not longer always the case. Enough has been said about the slow patching rate, even with the official explanation from CA. The big issue is we perfectly know that new bugs are introduced or reintroduced, some of them of course being the kind hard to catch, other looking like big oversights. Not checking if a new character even have their dedicated skills? But the thing is this makes the game at times buggier than it was and we have no idea of when the situation will get better.

    For recent examples, loyalty dilemma have been inactivated since the TK update and there is no news about them. Some ME character quest chains have been bugged since months and still are. Both are hard/impossible issues to fix by modding. I don't want to blame anyone, since we can highly suspect there is simply not enough people tasked to do what I would call the "follow-up" work. The new content team is working intensely but there is clearly an issue with how resources are stretched thin when it comes to this kind of maintenance work.

    The question is, what can we do about it? Is there a way to make the topic important enough for CA or sega to start worrying about this? The whole trilogy goals are ambitious, but as this kind of oversights go on, they give a amateurish wibe on the whole endeavour. Can we expect to have to play campaign asap because some features may be broken in the future? There is quite a lot of talk about features/units for older factions, but it's only half the story. If they don't expend the time to fix even basic stuff that has been duly identified by players, even some times with fixes indication, what can we expect more.

    Of course this is money that is not spent for shiny new stuff that can be sold, we get it. But it should matters in the long run. The game can't be straightened by mods alone.
    What could happen with game 3? Can we expect most of the TW1 and 2 content to "maybe" work correctly in this game?

    What a great post. Well said!


    I would gladly pay for dlc etc as the price doesnt matter to me.

    But i havent bought TKs or the queen dlc. Because frankly im not playing much because of what you sum up.

    Once the game gets in shape i will probably buy all the dlcs at once.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • InquisitornInquisitorn Registered Users Posts: 98
    edited June 2018

    @uriak I don't know what what you have been developing, but it is probably something infinitely simpler than TW because I'm a dev too and I know from experience that big applications will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER be bugfree. Even if you work on it for an infinite amount of time with infinite resources. That's why issues have priorities and are addressed in order if importance and there are very few game breaking bugs in TW games and repairing forts is not a big issue, it's a nuisance. And being a sensible company CA will allocate resources to the game breaking issues and the new features that everybody is whining about being long overdue.

    Look, can you with your vast dev experience and insight just point to any comparable game (scale, diverse options) released in the past 5 years that has zero issues?

    Its the same issues since launch though. The gate bug, the artillery bug and the reinforcement bug have been around for a while.
    And your point is? Just consider what have been fixed, changed and added since launch. I think it would be better to discuss priorities than testing. Maybe CA should consider a voting feature or similar, so that we get more insight as well as an understanding that the issues that some consider high priority are considered not so important by the majority. I bet a vote for issues fixed vs Ghorgon implementation would be an eye opener to the minority so concerned about a few issues. Some may have a fixation and can't play the game if there's a spelling mistake, but most have the ability to ignore a few things and just enjoy and play the game with it's relatively minor flaws. :smile:
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
    edited June 2018

    @uriak I don't know what what you have been developing, but it is probably something infinitely simpler than TW because I'm a dev too and I know from experience that big applications will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER be bugfree. Even if you work on it for an infinite amount of time with infinite resources. That's why issues have priorities and are addressed in order if importance and there are very few game breaking bugs in TW games and repairing forts is not a big issue, it's a nuisance. And being a sensible company CA will allocate resources to the game breaking issues and the new features that everybody is whining about being long overdue.

    Look, can you with your vast dev experience and insight just point to any comparable game (scale, diverse options) released in the past 5 years that has zero issues?

    TL;DR : bugs are bound to happen with a big project. They are streching thin their resources and hoping for the best and this may worsen the state of the game in the future.

    The snarkiness is unwarranted. I'm not screaming bloody murder because there are bugs. I'm just stating something that has been obvious from quite a time. CA/SEGA is leaving only a very minimal crew to maintain and update released content. (yes they go hand in hand). I don't question their ability to avoid the unavoidable, but how the effort is deliberately spread. In both games after the initial launch and fixes, allmost all resources are put for new sellable content.

    And exactly BECAUSE the game is such a big project, this shouldn't happen. And even if most bugs are certainly not game breaking, it's worrying to say the least that they deem this acceptable, because if things are bit shaky now, just wait until game 3 is released. Who knows, maybe the chaos spreading from Morathi will hurt her in game 3, or the skavenfood balance will be broken.... or many existing character quests will not work. (something that is curently happening with the White Dwarf) Or simply, has past months has shown us, things will work as intended, but the whole campaign balance will be random. Remember the WE release : they would just conquer half the world. Testing certainly has shown that the campaign worked, but nobody stopped to say "maybe we should ensure things are normally balanced

    I'm all for supporting the game, but I feel the implicit contract is not "I'm paying for this DLC content" but rather "I'm paying for this DLC and for future content addition AND for maintaining this game"

    Okay so have a screen, freshly taken from the BETA.



    The new DE sorceress has magical skills of the lord variety, not agents. (I checked by comparing to skink priests and other sorceress types) Okay that's not HUGE oversight. But it does affect freshly added content.
    What is important is this is not a cryptic bug, just opening the skill tree of a new agents shows an issue. There are other things that sometimes may trigger the thought of "are they even playing their own releases once ? " Again I don't want to blame anyone in particular, but there is a gap between the game ambition and the allocated resources. This actively damages the standing of this studio.

    Perhaps they won't get any more resources in the short/middle term in which case, for us customers it will be a choice between new content and a more maintained game.

    Okay, I'm sorry for the text wall, I didn''t want to sound petulant or too passionate. Just a thought : asking for old faction updates raises exactly the same question : how many people are they going to put into working for released content vs people working on new content or other games.
  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,897
    edited June 2018

    @uriak I don't know what what you have been developing, but it is probably something infinitely simpler than TW because I'm a dev too and I know from experience that big applications will never, ever, ever, ever, EVER be bugfree. Even if you work on it for an infinite amount of time with infinite resources. That's why issues have priorities and are addressed in order if importance and there are very few game breaking bugs in TW games and repairing forts is not a big issue, it's a nuisance. And being a sensible company CA will allocate resources to the game breaking issues and the new features that everybody is whining about being long overdue.

    Look, can you with your vast dev experience and insight just point to any comparable game (scale, diverse options) released in the past 5 years that has zero issues?

    Its the same issues since launch though. The gate bug, the artillery bug and the reinforcement bug have been around for a while.
    And your point is? Just consider what have been fixed, changed and added since launch. I think it would be better to discuss priorities than testing. Maybe CA should consider a voting feature or similar, so that we get more insight as well as an understanding that the issues that some consider high priority are considered not so important by the majority. I bet a vote for issues fixed vs Ghorgon implementation would be an eye opener to the minority so concerned about a few issues. Some may have a fixation and can't play the game if there's a spelling mistake, but most have the ability to ignore a few things and just enjoy and play the game with it's relatively minor flaws. :smile:
    Your post highlights a problem with CA when it comes to matters of bugs: the lack of communication over it. We don't know what CA consider to be priority beyond content not appearing. For them to even consider a voting system they'd have to actually communicate a great deal more than they are now.

    As for general issues: Game breaking can be such a misnomer. Different systems have different issues when it comes to CTD's, but there is also the case of Chaos Invasion at ME's start being 'game breaking' enough that CA intervened, even though it didn't prevent you playing per se. It did however cause many campaigns to be abruptly ended in frustration.

    Relative is important for CA to consider, you might make examples to spelling mistakes causing someone to end the game, but that is being quite unfair. The reinforcement bug is beyond stupid and actively removes strategy in a title dedicated to... strategy. I'd consider that in need of a priority fix. Others such as the gate bug, which can cause you to lose units because the gate opens randomly, are frustrating in a siege.

    No one here is expecting perfection, for striving for that is met only with failure. What we would like is a different approach than the current one to dealing with them.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • InquisitornInquisitorn Registered Users Posts: 98
    Some may say that the reinforcement bug is by design and a feature. In other words: It works as it should and the behavior is intended. Your example just highlights my point that there is no evidence that what some consider major issues is considered worth prioritizing by the majority of players.

    Another example would be the gate issue, which is clearly a design issue. But it is still something you can workaround (use ladders to take the gate section, keep a strong force at the gate to discourage AI moving out) and thus it would end up way down on a prioritized list of issues, new features and changes to existing factions, LL etc.
  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,897

    Some may say that the reinforcement bug is by design and a feature. In other words: It works as it should and the behavior is intended. Your example just highlights my point that there is no evidence that what some consider major issues is considered worth prioritizing by the majority of players.

    Another example would be the gate issue, which is clearly a design issue. But it is still something you can workaround (use ladders to take the gate section, keep a strong force at the gate to discourage AI moving out) and thus it would end up way down on a prioritized list of issues, new features and changes to existing factions, LL etc.

    The reinforcement bug was fixed by CA in Game 1. I'm not sure how you can pretend otherwise at this point. The gate issue is also a bug due to path finding which can trap an entire unit from doing anything. I'm pretty sure unresponsive units are not intended.

    You seem to be arguing for the sake of it at this point.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 4,437
    I know it's a technical and arid topic, but the lack of traction makes me believe we're not gonna get any more focus on this array of issues anytime soon.

    Better wait for the secret I suppose, too bad if bad for the reinforcement bug and others if they are forgotten in the meamtime. Maybe we'll be nicely surprised.

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