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The best way to make TWW3 sell poorly is 4 core Demon races

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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 17,375Registered Users
    Fossoway said:

    Since when are any of the races "good" in warhammer?

    GW themselves have categorized them into good, neutral, evil. Yes, they're all shades of grey and grimdark grrr woof woof. Anyway, the races categorized as good; High Elves, Empire, the Dwarfs, etc all have significantly more playtime than their evil counterparts.

    The simple reality is that were Chaos to make up the 4 cores then there's no good guys to play, and what's worse is that without that good/bad dynamic it's bad vs bad and those matchups are always a poor option.
    It's more "Order vs Chaos" with only Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms being neutral. Problem is, all the "Order" factions are done. Kislev is the only one left, and them being a discontinuated faction by Games Workshop. So whatever happens, game 3 will be in a serious lack of "good guys".
    This is true. One or more of these will need to be included in some fashion.

    Furthermore if we look at the good / evil races the latter currently outnumber the former. Even more reason against multiple Demon races.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,654Registered Users

    Since when are any of the races "good" in warhammer?

    GW themselves have categorized them into good, neutral, evil. Yes, they're all shades of grey and grimdark grrr woof woof. Anyway, the races categorized as good; High Elves, Empire, the Dwarfs, etc all have significantly more playtime than their evil counterparts.

    Games Workshop categorized them into ORDER, neutral and DESTRUCTION not Good, neutral and Evil

    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • Surge_2Surge_2 Posts: 1,622Registered Users
    Fossoway said:

    Surge_2 said:

    Look, this isn't about 'anti chaos'.

    You could sell me on

    Updated Chaos Warriors
    Updated Chaos Beastmen
    Chaos Dwarves
    Chaos Daemons
    Ogres

    That could be Game 3.

    Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh Daemons as separate lists?

    Never. There is no precedent.

    Look at your 8th Edition Daemons of Chaos. That's what we will get.

    I think you confuse 2 different things:
    - Daemons of Chaos as the official 8th edition race
    - Chaos Divided as 4 separate factions/races, unofficial but exists in the lore

    Example:
    - Daemons of Nurgle are a Daemons of Chaos subfaction with only daemons
    - Nurgle is a nurgle-themed faction with a mixture of chaos warriors, beastmen, and daemons (including Plaguelords, Bile Trolls, Beasts of Nurgle, Pestigors, etc). Unofficial, but CA already made Norsca from scrap, and Chaos has the most vast lore in the whole warhammer universe. CA can pull it off easily.
    It can totally fit the fluff. I get that, and if you go back (or to End Times...) it's correct to have mixed armies dedicated to 1 God.

    If they do that...which is what 6th? I'm OK with that.

    I'd still like an 'undivided' daemons list / army / faction that is 8th Edition...but that's just the completionist in me.
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,671Registered Users

    Fossoway said:

    Since when are any of the races "good" in warhammer?

    GW themselves have categorized them into good, neutral, evil. Yes, they're all shades of grey and grimdark grrr woof woof. Anyway, the races categorized as good; High Elves, Empire, the Dwarfs, etc all have significantly more playtime than their evil counterparts.

    The simple reality is that were Chaos to make up the 4 cores then there's no good guys to play, and what's worse is that without that good/bad dynamic it's bad vs bad and those matchups are always a poor option.
    It's more "Order vs Chaos" with only Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms being neutral. Problem is, all the "Order" factions are done. Kislev is the only one left, and them being a discontinuated faction by Games Workshop. So whatever happens, game 3 will be in a serious lack of "good guys".
    This is true. One or more of these will need to be included in some fashion.

    Furthermore if we look at the good / evil races the latter currently outnumber the former. Even more reason against multiple Demon races.
    The lack of true alternatives for part 3 is a reason against Independent Daemons Armies?
  • LolTHELolLolTHELol Posts: 781Registered Users
    edited July 2018
    Firstly, game 3 will either cost less compared to other 2 or must have a big overhaul for game 1 races to justify charging 60 dollars, possibly with new game mechanics, especially for Chaos, Beastmen and Empire.

    Secondly CA can do Chaos Demons as 4 races, but game cannot launch with Demons only. It could easily be Kieslev the pre-order bonus, Nurgle and BigBirds, Ogres and Chaos Dwarfs.

    The thing is if they do not have 4 different Chaos races well they pretty much have nothing for race DLCs. They might end up making ton of additional units and Lords for earlier races and Possibly Nagash Faction but I have no idea what else can CA do in terms of race DLC with Demons being one faction.
  • WyvaxWyvax Posts: 2,145Registered Users
    Each game has to be able to stand on their own and have the potential to attract as many new customers as possible, not merely rely on the fanbase of the previous installments to carry it financially. It has to stand out and draw more people in in order to be worthwhile for the company.

    Take me for example. I'm a Total War fan who started with Rome, loved Medieval 2 but was soured on the series by Rome 2, never even bothering with Attila. I like fantasy a lot but my perception of Warhammer was yet another generic LotR knock-off and dull DnD tropes, those combined with the poor reviews at the time (mostly negative reaction to Chaos Warriors DLC, I found out later, not actual game critique) and my stubborn belief that TW should be about history exclusively; I took a hard pass on Total War: Warhammer for over a year. Then I saw the TW:W2 trailer as an add on YouTube and the Lizardmen completely changed my mind; dinosaurs, the only thing better than the middle ages! That caused me to get into the first game and more importantly the lore, which I found to be more unique and interesting than I had assumed. Warhammer was actually cool, and the factions from the first game that didn't interest me in the slightest (VC for example) are now among my favorites.

    The point here is that a single unique race got me hooked on the entire franchise. If Warhammer 2 was just elves, I never would have bothered. A game that's nothing but demons will attract less people than a game that's equal parts demonic hordes, evil, industrialist, Mesopotamian dwarfs, hulking, fat, hungry Neanderthals and fantasy Russians on bears will. Heck if Kislev is in on launch, you can bet some people will buy the game purely for the bear cavalry meme.

    Four shades of demons is a poor financial and marketing move.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed

    It's T. rex, not T-Rex, you filthy casuals.
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,671Registered Users
    Surge_2 said:

    Fossoway said:

    Surge_2 said:

    Look, this isn't about 'anti chaos'.

    You could sell me on

    Updated Chaos Warriors
    Updated Chaos Beastmen
    Chaos Dwarves
    Chaos Daemons
    Ogres

    That could be Game 3.

    Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh Daemons as separate lists?

    Never. There is no precedent.

    Look at your 8th Edition Daemons of Chaos. That's what we will get.

    I think you confuse 2 different things:
    - Daemons of Chaos as the official 8th edition race
    - Chaos Divided as 4 separate factions/races, unofficial but exists in the lore

    Example:
    - Daemons of Nurgle are a Daemons of Chaos subfaction with only Daemons
    - Nurgle is a nurgle-themed faction with a mixture of Chaos Warriors, Beastmen, and Daemons (including Plaguelords, Bile Trolls, Beasts of Nurgle, Pestigors, etc). Unofficial, but CA already made Norsca from scrap, and Chaos has the most vast lore in the whole Warhammer Universe. CA can pull it off easily.
    It can totally fit the fluff. I get that, and if you go back (or to End Times...) it's correct to have mixed armies dedicated to 1 God.

    If they do that...which is what 6th? I'm OK with that.

    I'd still like an 'Undivided' Daemons list / army / faction that is 8th Edition...but that's just the completionist in me.
    Well Lore-Wise the Everchosen is much better expression of Chaos Undivided than any Daemon.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Everchosen
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 17,375Registered Users
    @Arthasmenethril "Order" and "Destruction" are the same as "Good" and "Evil", that there's some grimdark grr woof woof bow wow in there doesn't change that. I'm unsure why an issue is being made out of something so clear.
    Tayvar said:

    Fossoway said:

    Since when are any of the races "good" in warhammer?

    GW themselves have categorized them into good, neutral, evil. Yes, they're all shades of grey and grimdark grrr woof woof. Anyway, the races categorized as good; High Elves, Empire, the Dwarfs, etc all have significantly more playtime than their evil counterparts.

    The simple reality is that were Chaos to make up the 4 cores then there's no good guys to play, and what's worse is that without that good/bad dynamic it's bad vs bad and those matchups are always a poor option.
    It's more "Order vs Chaos" with only Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms being neutral. Problem is, all the "Order" factions are done. Kislev is the only one left, and them being a discontinuated faction by Games Workshop. So whatever happens, game 3 will be in a serious lack of "good guys".
    This is true. One or more of these will need to be included in some fashion.

    Furthermore if we look at the good / evil races the latter currently outnumber the former. Even more reason against multiple Demon races.
    The lack of true alternatives for part 3 is a reason against Independent Daemons Armies?
    The oversaturation of evil armies is a reason against a game with nothing but evil armies. The lack of good armies is a reason for good armies.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Posts: 1,676Registered Users
    edited July 2018
    Order and Destruction doesn't mean good and evil. They're different words for a reason.

    Lizardmen don't give a crap about kindness and would gladly murder the entire human race if their ancient stone tablets told them the Old Ones wanted them to. They're mostly ferocious, remorseless killers who mindlessly follow orders. You cannot reasonably call them 'good'.

    They're still Order.
    "grimdark grr woof woof bow wow"
    I know this will sound like a personal attack, but that makes you sound like you're an 18 year old trying too hard to be mature and grown up.
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,671Registered Users

    Tayvar said:

    Fossoway said:

    Since when are any of the races "good" in warhammer?

    GW themselves have categorized them into good, neutral, evil. Yes, they're all shades of grey and grimdark grrr woof woof. Anyway, the races categorized as good; High Elves, Empire, the Dwarfs, etc all have significantly more playtime than their evil counterparts.

    The simple reality is that were Chaos to make up the 4 cores then there's no good guys to play, and what's worse is that without that good/bad dynamic it's bad vs bad and those matchups are always a poor option.
    It's more "Order vs Chaos" with only Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms being neutral. Problem is, all the "Order" factions are done. Kislev is the only one left, and them being a discontinuated faction by Games Workshop. So whatever happens, game 3 will be in a serious lack of "good guys".
    This is true. One or more of these will need to be included in some fashion.

    Furthermore if we look at the good / evil races the latter currently outnumber the former. Even more reason against multiple Demon races.
    The lack of true alternatives for part 3 is a reason against Independent Daemons Armies?
    The oversaturation of evil armies is a reason against a game with nothing but evil armies. The lack of good armies is a reason for good armies.
    Kislev is part of the Old World's Map, and Cathay is not more likely than Independent Daemon Armies.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Posts: 1,676Registered Users

    @Arthasmenethril "Order" and "Destruction" are the same as "Good" and "Evil", that there's doesn't change that. I'm unsure why an issue is being made out of something so clear.

    Order and Destruction aren't Good and Evil. They're different words for a reason.

    Lizardmen don't care about kindness or mercy. They'd gladly murder the entire human race if their ancient stone tablets told them the Old Ones wanted them to. They're mostly ferocious killers who mindlessly follow orders. You can hardly call them 'Good'.

    But they're still an Order faction.

    Also

    "some grimdark grr woof woof bow wow in there"
    "shades of grey and grimdark grrr woof woof"

    No offence, but you sound like an 18-year old trying too hard to show everyone how mature and grown up you are. I doubt anyone here is interested in how you're too grown up for grimdark. If you want to simplify everything into tropes go ahead but you don't have to be a **** about it.

  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,671Registered Users
    Nitros14 said:

    @Arthasmenethril "Order" and "Destruction" are the same as "Good" and "Evil", that there's doesn't change that. I'm unsure why an issue is being made out of something so clear.

    Order and Destruction aren't Good and Evil. They're different words for a reason.

    Lizardmen don't care about kindness or mercy. They'd gladly murder the entire Human race if their ancient stone tablets told them the Old Ones wanted them to. They're mostly ferocious killers who mindlessly follow orders. You can hardly call them 'Good'.

    But they're still an Order faction.
    Yes but with emphasis on "if", the Lizardmen main job is to Defend the world from Chaos Invasion.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Catastrophe
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Posts: 1,676Registered Users
    edited July 2018
    Tayvar said:

    Nitros14 said:

    @Arthasmenethril "Order" and "Destruction" are the same as "Good" and "Evil", that there's doesn't change that. I'm unsure why an issue is being made out of something so clear.

    Order and Destruction aren't Good and Evil. They're different words for a reason.

    Lizardmen don't care about kindness or mercy. They'd gladly murder the entire Human race if their ancient stone tablets told them the Old Ones wanted them to. They're mostly ferocious killers who mindlessly follow orders. You can hardly call them 'Good'.

    But they're still an Order faction.
    Yes but with emphasis on "if", the Lizardmen main job is to Defend the world from Chaos Invasion.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Catastrophe
    Sure, thus they're an order faction. Good is something different and implies caring about the fate of others. Mindless robots aren't Good.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 17,375Registered Users
    Nitros14 said:

    @Arthasmenethril "Order" and "Destruction" are the same as "Good" and "Evil", that there's doesn't change that. I'm unsure why an issue is being made out of something so clear.

    Order and Destruction aren't Good and Evil. They're different words for a reason.

    Lizardmen don't care about kindness or mercy. They'd gladly murder the entire human race if their ancient stone tablets told them the Old Ones wanted them to. They're mostly ferocious killers who mindlessly follow orders. You can hardly call them 'Good'.

    But they're still an Order faction.
    No offense, but I'm not engaging with personal commentary :).

    They're different words because when you delve into Warhammer they're more appropriate. The reason I keep using "good" and "evil" is because they're more appropriate for what I'm talking about. On the surface a faction is either on the good side or the bad side, and I'd wager a dollar to a dime that, that first impression is what drives plays more than whatever grimdarkwhatever is going on behind that.

    Note that Lizardmen -like other monster races- aren't as played as the human like good races.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,850Registered Users
    I do wonder, when people trot out the 'there are no good guys in warhammer' line, how much fantasy written for adults people have read. It is extremely rare to have entire cultures dedicated to goodness in any fantasy setting not aimed at children. Usually, the good guys come out of cultures that have philosophies that aspire to high ideals, but in practice have flaws that usually prevent them from achieving them in practice.

    The Empire and even grimdarked Bretonnia are actually pretty typical in that respect. And the High Elves and Lizardmen - being cultures that are pretty much dedicated to saving the world, even if they're arrogant and ruthless about it and are doing it more for their own benefit than anyone else's - are probably actually closer to being the good guys at a whole-culture level than you'll find in most fantasy settings.

    Try to find a 'pure good' culture in Middle-Earth, for instance. There are some that might appear to be on the surface, but when you go deeper...

    Warhammer Fantasy is nothing special in this regard. You have races that at least have the potential to be the good guys, and races that are clearly villains (using the TWW definition of 'race' here).

    (And yes, one could make the argument that Slaanesh is actually the good guy because he just wants to make everybody love each other and be happy. Good luck persuading most people that a race with actual demons is a good guy, though...)
    Goatforce said:

    As above, 4 DoC factions makes no sense - simply not enough units - but with Chaos God factions this is not necessarily the case - and allows for a plethora of LLs, where a single DoC faction limits chaos severely in the finished series; barring an almost miraculously scaled overhaul to WoC. And whilst these would contain a lot of similarities we already see this in a lot of the more mundane parts of existing factions (Elves, for example; Dreadspears vs spearmen, Black Guard vs Phoenix guard etc), and certainly some of the differing specialties of god aligned Chaos Warriors (fast AP Slaaneshi, slow but supremely tanky Nurgle etc) could give it enough difference to carry it.

    The elven comparison is one I've acknowledged before, but separate god armies would be splitting this four ways, plus the ways Chaos has already been split (they'd also be expected to share a lot of their roster with WoC, for instance).

    I think you might also be exaggerating the similarities. Base spearmen-with-shields are fairly similar among multiple factions (the Empire spearmen-with-shields, for instance, are not far off stat-wise from Elven spearmen. Nor are swordsmen that far off from Bleakswords, for that matter), while the Black Guard and Phoenix Guard are... quite a bit more different than you imply. Both are elite AP+AL infantry, but one focuses on outlasting all comers, the other is a lot more offensively potent (and this distinction is reduced in TWW2 compared to the tabletop). Arguably you could have the same distinction between a Khorne or Slaanesh warrior versus a Nurgle or Tzeentch one, but I don't think it would be as great.

    To expand the comparison, let's look at the two core Elven armies:

    Similarities:
    * Both have spearmen and shooters as their basic units.
    * Both have dragons, and a variety of flying units in general.
    * Both have fairly 'balanced' armies, with a mix of infantry, archers, cavalry, chariots, flyers, and light infantry.
    * Both have dual-purpose infantry, capable of acting both as melee infantry or shooters.

    Differences:
    * Dark Elves have a wide variety of mid-tier melee infantry. High Elves do not (and lack any melee infantry optimised for fighting lightly-armoured infantry).
    * High Elf heavy cavalry does not rampage.
    * Dark Elves have large ground monsters (Hydra, Kharibdyss), High Elves do not (unless Avelorn).
    * Dark Elves have mostly AP shooters, while High Elves have mostly armour-affected shooting.
    * The High Elf air force has a bomber (the Flamespyre) while the Dark Elves have swarming flyers (Harpies).
    * Lothern Seaguard, the primary High Elf dual-use infantry, is an antilarge defensive unit. Dark Elf multipurpose infantry is more offensively-oriented and usually anti-infantry.

    I'm broad-strokesing over quite a few differences and similarities here, since I'm not really interested in going over subtle differences between units that do much the same thing, instead focusing on the differences that might have a significant effect on tactics used with the army as a whole. (Eg. Despite the observation about Black Guard and Phoenix Guard made earlier, I don't consider that important enough to include in this list, because in practice the two will likely still be used in a similar way - the Dark Elves don't have anything that can Phoenix Guard better than the Black Guard, so that's what they'll use for the same role, despite the differences between the two. However, because the Dark Elves have a wider range of infantry options available, there are likely situations where the High Elves are forced to fall back on the Phoenix Guard as their least-bad option where the Dark Elves can draw on a more efficient option, such as Sisters of Slaughter against AP infantry. Therefore, the greater range of infantry options available to the Dark Elves is strategically important, the difference between Black Guard and Phoenix Guard probably is not.)

    Now, if we look at the likely lists of separate god lists in the same way (and the same lack of care when it comes to units that would be used the same way), we pretty much get the following:

    Differences:
    * The different demons - a categorisation that I understand covers a lot, but is still only about half a dozen units per god.
    * Khorne would have no wizards, and possibly magic resistance to compensate.
    * Khornate units might be subject to rampage.

    Similarities:
    * Pretty much everything else, since 75% of each list is probably coming from the same source.

    On the whole, while there certainly are unmistakable similarities between the Elves, I think CA will have their work cut out for them to avoid god armies making High and Dark Elves look like apples and oranges.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Posts: 1,676Registered Users
    More than good and evil, humans like to play as humans. Generally in any fantasy game the most played race is the most human-like race.
  • JollyRogeroJollyRogero Member Posts: 668Registered Users
    This makes no sense. Chaos is the 2nd most popular faction in the Warhammer setting across its various tabletop and PC game iterations and while less popular than the Skaven they are still extremely popular and easily tower over their the other races in overall popularity (except Skaven). OP greatly underestimates how valuable and favored Chaos is to the longtime Warhammer fans who predate CA's games. These people will come out in droves to prop up the Chaos factions and ultimately sell the game very well.

    If game 2 didn't have the very popular Skaven in it I would expect a Chaos focused game 3 to outsell it by quite a large margin. The other game 2 races were some of the least popular factions in the the warhammer setting which explains why they were tacked into a title which serves as the bridge between 1 and 3.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 17,375Registered Users
    Nitros14 said:

    More than good and evil, humans like to play as humans. Generally in any fantasy game the most played race is the most human-like race.

    True.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • TayvarTayvar Posts: 10,671Registered Users
    Nitros14 said:

    More than good and evil, humans like to play as humans. Generally in any fantasy game the most played race is the most human-like race.

    And non of the main races/factions for part 3 is humans, and if daemons can be considered human-like in appearance is ambiguous, but ya, the "most writers are human" trope is a thing.
  • perpetualdarknessperpetualdarkness Chicago, IllinoisPosts: 164Registered Users
    I personally think that they'll include OK, CD, and 1 'LL for each Chaos God at launch, 1 Lord pack between the non-demons, and 2 between the 4. This way 8 'LL are ensured at launch with some faction variety that could truly flesh out chaos as it was meant to be.
    Team Lizardmen
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Posts: 1,295Registered Users
    edited July 2018
    Nitros14 said:

    Tayvar said:

    Nitros14 said:

    @Arthasmenethril "Order" and "Destruction" are the same as "Good" and "Evil", that there's doesn't change that. I'm unsure why an issue is being made out of something so clear.

    Order and Destruction aren't Good and Evil. They're different words for a reason.

    Lizardmen don't care about kindness or mercy. They'd gladly murder the entire Human race if their ancient stone tablets told them the Old Ones wanted them to. They're mostly ferocious killers who mindlessly follow orders. You can hardly call them 'Good'.

    But they're still an Order faction.
    Yes but with emphasis on "if", the Lizardmen main job is to Defend the world from Chaos Invasion.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Catastrophe
    Sure, thus they're an order faction. Good is something different and implies caring about the fate of others. Mindless robots aren't Good.
    But Mindless robots aren't Bad either.

    Anyways, i don't think the slanns and skinks and even saurus and kroxigors should be considered as mindless robots.

    Sure, lizardmens follows orders, but everyone, not just the lizardmens, follows some orders.
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Posts: 1,295Registered Users
    edited July 2018


    If game 2 didn't have the very popular Skaven in it I would expect a Chaos focused game 3 to outsell it by quite a large margin. The other game 2 races were some of the least popular factions in the the warhammer setting which explains why they were tacked into a title which serves as the bridge between 1 and 3.

    Have you an actual proof of that, because i absolutely disagree :grimace:
    Since when High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmens were unpopular ?
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 5,753Registered Users
    I'm still expecting game 3 to be Total Chaos one way or the other.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • DainDain Posts: 58Registered Users
    Where there is will there is a way





    +





    +




    +






    +Slaneesh


    +Old concepts.

    I do not know but if people pay 30 euros for each codex plus 80-100 euro for mono plastic figurines there could be the demand for single races either at launch or after with DLCs
  • HarconnHarconn Posts: 845Registered Users
    Best way to make game 3 sell poorly is to patch all three games poorly together (so happened with ME).
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________

    My German Youtube-Channel - Let's Plays (Strategy, RPG, Indie,...): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChwblqvwr8XxKP0GzCcUb8Q
  • dodge33cymrudodge33cymru Posts: 1,864Registered Users
    4 Daemon races, nah

    4 combined Chaos races, yes please

    The only way I would like to see Ogres and Chaos Dwarves included in the base is with a Tamurkhan-esque campaign focus where Chaos is still divided, but a couple of them come with the base game and the other gods' forces come as DLC. By all means start with Nurgle and Slaanesh (all the N'Kari references) and add Khorne and Tzeentch as DLC.
  • GodWillTellGodWillTell Posts: 697Registered Users
    Strongly disagree with the OP. :/

    4 Chaos God's armies is the reason why i will buy TWW3, plus WoC and Beastmen updated.
    In fact TWW3 is my most wanted game of the trilogy due to Chaos and also Ogres.....but firstly Chaos.

    #FORGHORGON
  • RiddlebickRiddlebick Posts: 238Registered Users
    Hey,
    Just some thoughts:

    1.:
    What if game 3 starts with more than 4 core races/factions?
    4xDemons + anything remotely good and human
    Guess that would be the best to get most buyers.

    2.:
    What if we will face more different kind of demons/warriors of chaos?
    Like Demons of Nurgle, Chaos undivided and Nurgle itself. All can recruit different aspects of Nurgle.
    - Demons of Nurgle might be a Horde with only Demons. (Similar to Rogue armies)
    - Chaos undivided gets updated and receives some Nurgle specific warriors and smaller demons.
    - Nurgle gets all the Nurgle fluff: Demons, Warriors and Leaders all pledged to Nurgle.

    3.:
    What if main selling point is an overhaul of the old? +Demons
    The Map will be comprised but show most of the old world including araby/southlands (the part where setra is)
    Map extended north and extended east. (Just a little bit)
    Overhaul of Chaos undivided and introducing Demons.
    -> Then you will have loads of good guys. (if you own wh1+2 maybe playable)
    -> Kislev, Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs all could be DLC or one might be there at start

    4.:
    What if we start with a combined map already?
    No smaller map ala Vortex.
    Extended North and East.
    All good guys playable right of the bat if you own tw:wh1/2

    I personally kinda hope for Number2+3 but my guts tell me it's quite unlikely. :(

    In the end I hope we wont get 4 demon races that will have a small roster, undivided remains ignored and demons battling east against each other for dominance without an incentive to go to the old world.
    (Please no)
    I really hope they use game 3 as an icing. No combined map where all 3 games are just tucked on each other and a second wave of more evil chaos aka demons appears round 200, but a combined map where interaction with chaos is omnipresent.
    So many interesting ways to approach this, please CA, do your best. ;)

    Cheers.
    :#
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,850Registered Users
    edited July 2018
    Wargol5 said:


    If game 2 didn't have the very popular Skaven in it I would expect a Chaos focused game 3 to outsell it by quite a large margin. The other game 2 races were some of the least popular factions in the the warhammer setting which explains why they were tacked into a title which serves as the bridge between 1 and 3.

    Have you an actual proof of that, because i absolutely disagree :grimace:
    Since when High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmens were unpopular ?
    I highly doubt it. The one survey I know of placed High Elves at close to WoC in popularity, and all of the Game 2 races outstrip DoC in popularity, let alone Beastmen.



    Chaos players like to exaggerate how popular Chaos actually was. Based on the data above, even the most generous reading gives a Chaos-only game 3 significantly less traction than Game 2 in terms of races. (Admittedly, adding Ogre Kingdoms and "Other" doesn't change that much according to the survey numbers, but "Other" was always intrinsically handicapped by having little or no official support. What was unpopular due to lack of official support on the tabletop might attract more attention if made available in the game.)
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 17,375Registered Users

    Strongly disagree with the OP. :/

    4 Chaos God's armies is the reason why i will buy TWW3, plus WoC and Beastmen updated.
    In fact TWW3 is my most wanted game of the trilogy due to Chaos and also Ogres.....but firstly Chaos.

    Would you buy it if it was 8th ed Demons? I'm going to guess the answer is yes. That's the crux of it; 4 core monogod armies attracts very few extra people while turning away many.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
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