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Humans & The Winds of Magic - Lore Question

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  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014
    The only lore of magic, as far as humans go, that I know about pretty well is the lore of fire.

    Bright Wizards are basically bad asses. They are not immune to their own magic. So when they summon fire, it burns them. At least at first. So they have to wear thick, protective clothing to not burn alive while trying to shoot fireballs and whatnot. Their skin eventually gets scarred to all hell on their hands and arms, then they start wearing less protective garb.

    So. If every lore is THAT impactful on a human, I can see them not ever wanting to attempt learning more than one lore. I'd rather not think about what the lore of death can do to you if you screw up, as Bright Wizards commonly do, wgen first getting started. (Inb4 "you die")
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,900
    edited July 2018

    Draxynnic said:


    In the tabletop, there's probably also a degree of "this is something they can do, but if they try to do it during a battle they'll be spending the entire battle casting that one spell".

    Wonder, if "Rites" is implementation form of this in TW.
    That's pretty much an argument I've made in the 'game 1 races should have rites' threads. While I'm not opposed to the idea per se, I can see why access to rites might be limited to races that are higher up on the magic scale: they represent the use of magic at a level which is lesser than Vortex rituals, but greater than battlefield magic. We'll see what happens when the campaign pack drops - my litmus test is that if DoW/Southern Realms drops (as most people are expecting it to be) and they have rites, then clearly the only distinction CA is looking at is whether the race is Game 1 or Game 2. If a Game 2 DLC race drops without rites, though, then that shows that CA is taking a deeper approach.
    Zergles said:

    The only lore of magic, as far as humans go, that I know about pretty well is the lore of fire.

    Bright Wizards are basically bad asses. They are not immune to their own magic. So when they summon fire, it burns them. At least at first. So they have to wear thick, protective clothing to not burn alive while trying to shoot fireballs and whatnot. Their skin eventually gets scarred to all hell on their hands and arms, then they start wearing less protective garb.

    So. If every lore is THAT impactful on a human, I can see them not ever wanting to attempt learning more than one lore. I'd rather not think about what the lore of death can do to you if you screw up, as Bright Wizards commonly do, wgen first getting started. (Inb4 "you die")

    They are. Other lores may not result in physical injuries of that nature (although some definitely do!) but human wizards definitely are changed by the lore they wield. Each wind embodies and is attracted to certain characteristics - apprentices are usually assigned to a college based on which wind they fit best (unless their talent is so weak they'll never become a Magister, in which case they get shunted to the Light College), but as the Magister channels the wind the characteristics that are in tune with the wind become enhanced over time - their personality shifts to be an increasingly stronger match with their wind, and there can even be physical transformations. This is possibly part of the reason why humans can become powerful faster than elves - elves try to avoid growing attuned to one lore at the expense of others, while humans embrace it.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 2,583

    Claiming Mazdamaundi can only use one lore because it's "too dangerous for him otherwise" is like claiming professional motorcyclists should all switch to childrens bikes with training wheels lest they rely upon knowing what they're doing to see them to safety. It's represented in game that he can willingly string together multiple lores. Morathis arguably strongest spell took multiple sorceresses to cast and was deflected by a single time stasis'd hedge wizard. Even when it was shot back with more force than it shot out with all it managed to do was lay a single region of Ulthuan to somewhat liveable waste. You know that region with Sildra Tor? The mountains around the province literally called Iron Peaks where Morathi starts? Yea those weren't there until Mazdamundi just decided he was tired of dealing with Dark Elves. So he rearranged the Geography on a whim. That was him not even trying. He could **** capsize Ulthuan if he was feeling particularly frisky about the Great Plan one day. Remember the Time of Woes for the dwarfs? That was a group of Slann who thought that the entire world needed a bit of rearrangement for the great plan. Who cares if it cost the lives of 75% of an entire race, those tectonic plates won't move themselves. Did more damage with overnight mental earthquakes than the Elves managed over the course of an entire war when they were at their apex.

    In the power structure of casters Slann sit apart. They're biologically engineered to be better than everyone else at it. There's no associated learning curve. Problem is waking them up to use any of it. It goes:

    Nagash and really any god who decides to directly assert their magical power in the realm. They're gods for **** sake and basically decide how magic even works. Well Nagash is only half way there. He also happens to be the most active.

    The Slann, starting with first generation like Kroak and working their way down. Mazdamundi being the current non-relic Slann to beat. But even a fifth generation Slann can change your astrological sign with his pinky pinger. Do toads have fingers? Are they fingers or just more toes?

    Greater Daemons of Chaos, ebbing depending entirely on Chaos influence in the area. Could be worthless. Could give Slann a run for their money. Most of the time in the Mortal realm their powers aren't so much as kneecapped as they are ripped away. Like if big daddy tzeentch took it home and filled a fairly overzealous restraining order. Catch them in the realm of Chaos and they get to literally write the rules as they go.

    Then the endlessly recycled and impossible to accurately determine debate about the mortal mages. Like Morathi, Teclis, Ariel etc. Mages with clear definied limitations and a measurable learning curve to their potential. Who weren't handed god mode at birth but have all their immortal life to try and play catch up.


    Ummm.....
    ....This great surge of magic proved to be too great for even the combined might of Malekith and his coven to overcome. As the wave of energy reached Nagarythe, the island buckled under the titanic stress. Across Ulthuan, earthquakes cast down cities and toppled mountains. A tidal wave a thousand feet high came crashing down on northern Ulthuan, submerging the provinces of Nagarythe and Tiranoc and killing thousands of Elves. The shock was felt as far away as the Worlds Edge Mountains and is recorded in the chronicles of the Dwarf Kings.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Registered Users Posts: 3,685

    Claiming Mazdamaundi can only use one lore because it's "too dangerous for him otherwise" is like claiming professional motorcyclists should all switch to childrens bikes with training wheels lest they rely upon knowing what they're doing to see them to safety. It's represented in game that he can willingly string together multiple lores. Morathis arguably strongest spell took multiple sorceresses to cast and was deflected by a single time stasis'd hedge wizard. Even when it was shot back with more force than it shot out with all it managed to do was lay a single region of Ulthuan to somewhat liveable waste. You know that region with Sildra Tor? The mountains around the province literally called Iron Peaks where Morathi starts? Yea those weren't there until Mazdamundi just decided he was tired of dealing with Dark Elves. So he rearranged the Geography on a whim. That was him not even trying. He could **** capsize Ulthuan if he was feeling particularly frisky about the Great Plan one day. Remember the Time of Woes for the dwarfs? That was a group of Slann who thought that the entire world needed a bit of rearrangement for the great plan. Who cares if it cost the lives of 75% of an entire race, those tectonic plates won't move themselves. Did more damage with overnight mental earthquakes than the Elves managed over the course of an entire war when they were at their apex.

    In the power structure of casters Slann sit apart. They're biologically engineered to be better than everyone else at it. There's no associated learning curve. Problem is waking them up to use any of it. It goes:

    Nagash and really any god who decides to directly assert their magical power in the realm. They're gods for **** sake and basically decide how magic even works. Well Nagash is only half way there. He also happens to be the most active.

    The Slann, starting with first generation like Kroak and working their way down. Mazdamundi being the current non-relic Slann to beat. But even a fifth generation Slann can change your astrological sign with his pinky pinger. Do toads have fingers? Are they fingers or just more toes?

    Greater Daemons of Chaos, ebbing depending entirely on Chaos influence in the area. Could be worthless. Could give Slann a run for their money. Most of the time in the Mortal realm their powers aren't so much as kneecapped as they are ripped away. Like if big daddy tzeentch took it home and filled a fairly overzealous restraining order. Catch them in the realm of Chaos and they get to literally write the rules as they go.

    Then the endlessly recycled and impossible to accurately determine debate about the mortal mages. Like Morathi, Teclis, Ariel etc. Mages with clear definied limitations and a measurable learning curve to their potential. Who weren't handed god mode at birth but have all their immortal life to try and play catch up.


    Ummm.....
    ....This great surge of magic proved to be too great for even the combined might of Malekith and his coven to overcome. As the wave of energy reached Nagarythe, the island buckled under the titanic stress. Across Ulthuan, earthquakes cast down cities and toppled mountains. A tidal wave a thousand feet high came crashing down on northern Ulthuan, submerging the provinces of Nagarythe and Tiranoc and killing thousands of Elves. The shock was felt as far away as the Worlds Edge Mountains and is recorded in the chronicles of the Dwarf Kings.
    As you can see by me calling Calador Dragontamer a hedge wizard, the post was 75% serious 25% sarcastic humor.

    If we are being serious. The redirected spell that flattened Nagarythe was spectacular. And definitely stands as the Dark Elves most devastating magical feat. But it took a cabal of them, led by some of the most powerful dark magic practitioners in existence. And they couldn't stop it once it came back around. Mazdamundi, on his own, built on a whim what that spell could only begin to destroy.

    The point, getting back on subject, is that you can not compare the limitations of the magical ability of some of the more spectacular races to that of humanity in the setting. That is (was) the point of the human factions. Surrounded on all sides by seemingly unstoppable forces. Still manage to struggle through even if only a desperate victory. The setting would lose that characteristic struggle if humanity was capable of every feat others are. Thus why we have demi-gods of magic and those who try to keep up.
  • VegetableVegetable Registered Users Posts: 17
    I know my reply is a little late, but thanks for all the answers! It's definitely more clear now. One thing I wonder about though, is necromancy; someone mentioned that it's a form for dark magic, but from what I've read it seems to be a corrupted and twisted version of Death magic, like how Wild magic is a corrupted and twisted version of the lore of beasts. So is it death magic, dark magic, or something inbetween? And how do vampires manage to (seemingly) not go crazy from using it?

    And on a slightly different topic, are there other corrupted forms for magic that deviate from the primary eight winds by twisting them into a dark reflections of themselves?
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,851
    Vegetable said:

    I know my reply is a little late, but thanks for all the answers! It's definitely more clear now. One thing I wonder about though, is Necromancy; someone mentioned that it's a form for Dark Magic, but from what I've read it seems to be a corrupted and twisted version of Death Magic, like how Wild Magic is a corrupted and twisted version of the Lore of Beasts. So is it Death Magic, Dark Magic, or something inbetween? And how do Vampires manage to (seemingly) not go crazy from using it?

    And on a slightly different topic, are there other corrupted forms for magic that deviate from the primary eight winds by twisting them into a dark reflections of themselves?

    Necromancy's Lore is complicated in Warhammer Setting, especially question if Necromancy is more like Dark Magic or more like Death Magic, anyway it's clear that even if Necromancy is using multiple Winds of Magic, it's still using the Winds of Death more than any other Wind. Also I am not sure if calling them "twisted versions" is exact, as "Magic" is fairly twisted in Warhammer Setting by default. The Order Mages are using something evil for good, and not the other way around. Vampires are Undead, Undead tend to have less Emotions than Humans, the Chaos Gods tend to be empowered by Emotions( mostly Negative Emotions), and so they don't tend to get empowered as much by the Dead, as from the Living. Nagash is the biggest threat to the Chaos Gods, as he want to make everyone into Undead. The Undead seems to be more Resistant to Corruption, so that's why it effects them less, in fact Humans are the most vulnerable sentient beings to Corruption in the Warhammer Setting. Also who said that Vampires don't risk their sanity by using Necromancy? the few 'Friendly Neighborhood Vampires' in the Warhammer Setting, like Geneviève Dieudonné, don't seems to be very into the Dark Art of Necromancy, also the most wicked Vampire Bloodline are the ones who focused the most on Magic.

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Necromancy

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TotalWarWarhammer
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,900
    edited July 2018
    Magic isn't evil, any more than the Realm of Chaos is evil (beings in it, yes, the location itself, no). The eight winds of magic represent creative and benign forces and concepts. It's when they get crushed together by Dark Magic (something that happens very easily, often spontaneously when the winds blow strongly enough) or co-opted by demonic energy that they become innately corruptive.

    Regarding necromancy and being Dark Magic or Death Magic: It's both. It's a form of Dark Magic, but it's a form of Dark Magic that is weighted heavily enough towards Shyish that it retains some of Shyish's character. Wild magic, as you note, is essentially a similar process except that it starts with Ghur. (On a similar note, the old Lore of Athel Loren that 6E Wood Elves had was probably a form of High Magic that came from mixing Ghur and Ghyran with little contribution from the other winds.)

    When it comes to vampires... it's questionable how sane vampires are to begin with. Using necromancy probably doesn't make much difference when you're a creature that is powered by necromancy and which is always at risk of degenerating into a wild beast if it doesn't drink the blood of the living.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 2,583
    Aint necromancy blend of dark magic and Mortuary Cults rituals which while deal with life after death are not connected to death magic?
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