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Warlock Engineer Oversight

ptavangarptavangar Registered Users Posts: 1,170
Oversight is being a bit generous tbh. But anyhow, I think the warlock engineer should have a warplock pistol. It is something that is very much needed because it is loreful and would make him more useful from a far. Also, it is a little frustrating that he has a voiceline that says "warplock loaded." Come on... that is just rubbing salt in the wound.

I would advise CA to at the very least give the arch warlock engineer (lord level warlock engineer) a warplock pistol, assuming they will give us a skryre lord instead of the verminlord (which is an actual army book lord and should be added first).
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Comments

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,639
    Good luck getting CA to do anything that would help the Skaven. They've been treated as the red-headed stepchild the entire time.

    Just noticed that the last patch also lowered base assassination chance for the Skaven Assassin to 15%.

    *golf clap*

    Keep up the shoddy work, CA!

  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014
    They will probably add warplock weaponry when they add Skryre. I personally don't care if he has one or not. I use Warlock Engineers as tanks anyway. And warp lightning is far more useful than a warplock pistol.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,639
    Zergles said:

    They will probably add warplock weaponry when they add Skryre. I personally don't care if he has one or not. I use Warlock Engineers as tanks anyway. And warp lightning is far more useful than a warplock pistol.

    For "tanks" Warlock Engineers have a abysmal starting armor and you need to invest two skill points to make them as armored as freakin' Globadiers.

  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014

    Zergles said:

    They will probably add warplock weaponry when they add Skryre. I personally don't care if he has one or not. I use Warlock Engineers as tanks anyway. And warp lightning is far more useful than a warplock pistol.

    For "tanks" Warlock Engineers have a abysmal starting armor and you need to invest two skill points to make them as armored as freakin' Globadiers.
    Ok.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,639
    Zergles said:

    Zergles said:

    They will probably add warplock weaponry when they add Skryre. I personally don't care if he has one or not. I use Warlock Engineers as tanks anyway. And warp lightning is far more useful than a warplock pistol.

    For "tanks" Warlock Engineers have a abysmal starting armor and you need to invest two skill points to make them as armored as freakin' Globadiers.
    Ok.
    So, no answer for why Warlock Engineers are pretty poor "tanks"? They have low combat stats on top and are actually better to just buff your artillery and do some magic.

  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014

    Zergles said:

    Zergles said:

    They will probably add warplock weaponry when they add Skryre. I personally don't care if he has one or not. I use Warlock Engineers as tanks anyway. And warp lightning is far more useful than a warplock pistol.

    For "tanks" Warlock Engineers have a abysmal starting armor and you need to invest two skill points to make them as armored as freakin' Globadiers.
    Ok.
    So, no answer for why Warlock Engineers are pretty poor "tanks"? They have low combat stats on top and are actually better to just buff your artillery and do some magic.
    They have decent stats across the board, starting. They have access to buffs and magic that buffs them. They are AP. They encourage units arpund them and can hide within another unit which give them a little cushion. They have missile resist and can soak up arrows.

    The warpstone armor they can get is also pretty good.

    Can we agree to disagree, or are you going to continue being a sperg?
  • SeetheSeethe Registered Users Posts: 188
    edited August 2018
    Sorry OP, CA's interest was to hype Skaven and meme them for months, not actually deliver a polished product. I don't even know why they bothered with the useless hidden settlements mechanic. I was also very disappointed to find out that they have no pistols, especially after playing Mordheim. They also suck in melee and at everything that doesn't involve being a mobile aura for arty, which is even more hilarious.
  • ptavangarptavangar Registered Users Posts: 1,170
    Agreed. And if you think about it, there is a very good reason why CA screwed the Skaven (and thus the players). It is because the more interested/beloved a race is, the less fleshed out it will be (unless it has a small or cheap roster to make). CA knows that most of us love the skaven and they took advantage of that. They figured that people will likely buy the game (and thus the skaven) even if many of the units are missing and will never be added. It is actually a smart business tactic but also kind of scumbaggish. But it makes sense. They do the bare minimum needed to sell games.


    Game 1 core races were much better off in a lot of ways compared to game 2 core races. Just look at all the cool unique monster mounts that the game 1 races got at launch. And those mounts didn't even pad the roster. They were simply created to be mounts. So we know that they are capable of giving us so much more but they don't. Why? Because by the time game 2 was released they knew they had a large player base so they didn't need to impress us to draw us in as much as they did with the first game.

    Game 3's races and gameplay area (darklands, mountains of mourn, chaos wastes) are not as favored by the fans so hopefully it will be more fleshed out roster wise. They may need to bite the bullet and spend more money to get people to buy game 3. But game 2 (although it didn't sell quite as well as game 1) was supported because people love the game 2 races and gameplay area.


    All four of the core races got screwed but in particular the lizardmen and skaven. Both (even after DLC/FLC) will be missing multiple cool units. It is a real shame. It is not even as if these units are super complex. They could be made fairly easily. I'd be willing to pay extra to get them all tbh. I just want the rosters in full. If this were game 1, they would never have left out the freaking white lion chariot.... I can guarantee you that. They were cheap and cut corners in game 1 but game 2 its on a whole new level.


    The warplock pistol would have been pretty easy to make and would have been cool. I doubt it will be included in the lord pack somehow but if they screw us yet again and don't give us the verminlord, they may decide to go with an arch warlock with (possibly) a warplock pistol.

    I too think that warlock engineers should have more armor at baseline at the very least. It is a little weird that they have less than half the armor of globadiers and yet visibly they seem like they have more armor.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,167
    ptavangar said:

    Agreed. And if you think about it, there is a very good reason why CA screwed the Skaven (and thus the players). It is because the more interested/beloved a race is, the less fleshed out it will be (unless it has a small or cheap roster to make). CA knows that most of us love the skaven and they took advantage of that. They figured that people will likely buy the game (and thus the skaven) even if many of the units are missing and will never be added. It is actually a smart business tactic but also kind of scumbaggish. But it makes sense. They do the bare minimum needed to sell games.


    Game 1 core races were much better off in a lot of ways compared to game 2 core races. Just look at all the cool unique monster mounts that the game 1 races got at launch. And those mounts didn't even pad the roster. They were simply created to be mounts. So we know that they are capable of giving us so much more but they don't. Why? Because by the time game 2 was released they knew they had a large player base so they didn't need to impress us to draw us in as much as they did with the first game.

    Game 3's races and gameplay area (darklands, mountains of mourn, chaos wastes) are not as favored by the fans so hopefully it will be more fleshed out roster wise. They may need to bite the bullet and spend more money to get people to buy game 3. But game 2 (although it didn't sell quite as well as game 1) was supported because people love the game 2 races and gameplay area.


    All four of the core races got screwed but in particular the lizardmen and skaven. Both (even after DLC/FLC) will be missing multiple cool units. It is a real shame. It is not even as if these units are super complex. They could be made fairly easily. I'd be willing to pay extra to get them all tbh. I just want the rosters in full. If this were game 1, they would never have left out the freaking white lion chariot.... I can guarantee you that. They were cheap and cut corners in game 1 but game 2 its on a whole new level.


    The warplock pistol would have been pretty easy to make and would have been cool. I doubt it will be included in the lord pack somehow but if they screw us yet again and don't give us the verminlord, they may decide to go with an arch warlock with (possibly) a warplock pistol.

    I too think that warlock engineers should have more armor at baseline at the very least. It is a little weird that they have less than half the armor of globadiers and yet visibly they seem like they have more armor.

    While I share your thoughts, I disagree completely with "Old World vs New World factions rosters". Game 1 factions (in particular Beastmen, WoC, Empire and GS both roster and mechanics-wise) are in a complete garbage state, not even comparable with Skaven or Lizardmen. Most of these don't even have a second starting locations to play in coop without using mods.

    All factions must be threated the in the same manner, with fully fleshed out 8 edition rosters and campaign/battle mechanics being really distinctive. That what we, as Warhammer fans, should be looking for.


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,900
    Lack of multiple starting positions is a completely different issue to roster holes.

    Empire and even Greenskins, even on release, were more complete than Skaven or Lizardmen. The Empire doesn't have a complete roster, but there's no area in which they should have a capability but don't. The missing units are more about optimisation than missing capabilities. Greenskins have some more substantial gaps (lack of anti-large infantry, lack of orc hero), but even that is more related to optimisation.

    Lizardmen and Skaven are missing entire capabilities. Both are missing their mobile, medium-range shooting specialists. Skaven are missing their light cavalry equivalent. Lizardmen are missing their air-to-air combatant.

    The Empire and Greenskins have other issues, but in roster completeness, they're much better off than the skaven and lizardmen. The Game 1 races were actually intended to have functionally complete rosters at release: the DLC units are an added bonus. The Game 2 races, on the other hand, very clearly had gaps that were deliberately left in order to slot in DLC.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,167
    Draxynnic said:

    Lack of multiple starting positions is a completely different issue to roster holes.

    Empire and even Greenskins, even on release, were more complete than Skaven or Lizardmen. The Empire doesn't have a complete roster, but there's no area in which they should have a capability but don't. The missing units are more about optimisation than missing capabilities. Greenskins have some more substantial gaps (lack of anti-large infantry, lack of orc hero), but even that is more related to optimisation.

    Lizardmen and Skaven are missing entire capabilities. Both are missing their mobile, medium-range shooting specialists. Skaven are missing their light cavalry equivalent. Lizardmen are missing their air-to-air combatant.

    The Empire and Greenskins have other issues, but in roster completeness, they're much better off than the skaven and lizardmen. The Game 1 races were actually intended to have functionally complete rosters at release: the DLC units are an added bonus. The Game 2 races, on the other hand, very clearly had gaps that were deliberately left in order to slot in DLC.

    True, but GS and VC in particular have recieved game-changing units: armies with and without Mortis Engines or Squig Hoppers are two diffirent power levels if refer to multiplayer.

    Out of all faction, GS have the most lacking one in my opinion. They miss:
    1) Tough frontline fighter hero, with the ability to train, replenish and attack garrisons in the campaign (Orc Big Boss);
    2) Proper anti-large counters lategame (Big Stabba, Spear Chukka (even though anti-large arty sucks in general));
    3) Terror bombs (Wyvern mount for non-existant Orc Big Boss);

    Out of those they have zero replacements, with the exception of Warboss on Wyvern... I find those gaps much more fundamental than lack of flamethrower for Lizardmen or giant rats for Skaven. While not denying the impact of missing units on new world factions gameplay, they at least have something to provide to cover up those holes. Greenskins have none.

    Also, a very crucial loss for Empire is lack of Master Engineer hero, mostly because non-monstrous artillery is in a very bad shape in the current meta and his calibrations with further buffs like extra ammo\damage\range\etc would help to at least keep it as a competetive choice.


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    Far from saying that CA doesn't do mistakes but when I read stuff "race X is in a garbage state" I'd like to remind people THEY have raised the bar on their own. Game 1 was quite welcomed and has actually no warhammer fantasy recent equivalent elsewhere. As far as adaptations go, it's not too shabby.

    But players have slowly but steadily swtiched their rethoric from "I wish there was more stuff" to "since the roster is not complete and the faction not yet updated they (CA) hate them and actually hate us, the players" Yeah I'm obviously paraphrasing, but I don't think it's an hyperbole, actually, when you consider the gist of some reactions.

    And about skavens, maybe the "scary truth" is they actually looked at the numbers and decided yes, a new faction would be more welcome than their LP. Because the level of fanboyism toward the rat-things is not equal to the proportion of actual players. That's maybe injust, and maybe caused by a lack of replay value (but hey they did get a 3rd LL and this becore the Q&C) and missing units (maybe) or the larger share of player don't really dig them, espcially since they don't go into the power fantasy of more elite factions. Or lack some capabilities. or they are not relatable nor as funny as the original material made them to be.

    Of course they could tell us the reasoning behind the scenes, but no dev would just say they don't prioritize something out of lack of popularity - be it skins for less loved heroes in MOBA, or a faction in a large RTS.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 24,639
    @uriak

    CA made the Skaven a complete chore to play as in campaign and on the battlefield with bafflingly bad design decisions and kept nerfhammering them in every patch (latest genius move? nerf Menace From Below Clanrats to degrade much faster, brilliant!), so saying now, "well, looks like people don't like them, so let's ignore them" is incredibly disingenious if that's the reasoning behind it.

    They took repeated dumps on the Hamburger and then decided that the fact few people want to eat it is a sign of something being wrong with Hamburgers in general and they should go for Hot Dogs instead. This is infuriating to the nth degree!




  • DebaucheeDebauchee Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,406
    @uriak
    As I see it, Skaven are objectively the most original and memorable part Warhammer Fantasy IP, even if I personally prefer Ogre Kingdoms. If an avaregae consumers prefers generic elves and edgy elves over Skaven, like you suppose, then I've lost faith in humanity.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,746
    edited August 2018
    uriak said:

    Far from saying that CA doesn't do mistakes but when I read stuff "race X is in a garbage state" I'd like to remind people THEY have raised the bar on their own. Game 1 was quite welcomed and has actually no warhammer fantasy recent equivalent elsewhere. As far as adaptations go, it's not too shabby.

    But players have slowly but steadily swtiched their rethoric from "I wish there was more stuff" to "since the roster is not complete and the faction not yet updated they (CA) hate them and actually hate us, the players" Yeah I'm obviously paraphrasing, but I don't think it's an hyperbole, actually, when you consider the gist of some reactions.

    And about skavens, maybe the "scary truth" is they actually looked at the numbers and decided yes, a new faction would be more welcome than their LP. Because the level of fanboyism toward the rat-things is not equal to the proportion of actual players. That's maybe injust, and maybe caused by a lack of replay value (but hey they did get a 3rd LL and this becore the Q&C) and missing units (maybe) or the larger share of player don't really dig them, espcially since they don't go into the power fantasy of more elite factions. Or lack some capabilities. or they are not relatable nor as funny as the original material made them to be.

    Of course they could tell us the reasoning behind the scenes, but no dev would just say they don't prioritize something out of lack of popularity - be it skins for less loved heroes in MOBA, or a faction in a large RTS.

    To be fair to the playerbase it's only a tiny minority that believe in these conspiracy theories.

    The simple reality is TWW fans simply don't like monster races, nor do they like destruction races. The fact is that Skaven are the least played of all the races. It's simply how it is. People can make excuses for this till the cows come home but it doesn't change that fact.

    Why CA have ordered as they have is really neither here nor there, none of us know. It could have been planned from the start, it could have been changed midway.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,167
    uriak said:

    . Game 1 was quite welcomed and has actually
    But players have slowly but steadily swtiched their rethoric from "I wish there was more stuff" to "since the roster is not complete and the faction not yet updated they (CA) hate them and actually hate us, the players" Yeah I'm obviously paraphrasing, but I don't think it's an hyperbole, actually, when you consider the gist of some reactions.

    And about skavens, maybe the "scary truth" is they actually looked at the numbers and decided yes, a new faction would be more welcome than their LP. Because the level of fanboyism toward the rat-things is not equal to the proportion of actual players. That's maybe injust, and maybe caused by a lack of replay value (but hey they did get a 3rd LL and this becore the Q&C) and missing units (maybe) or the larger share of player don't really dig them, espcially since they don't go into the power fantasy of more elite factions. Or lack some capabilities. or they are not relatable nor as funny as the original material made them to be.

    That would be true if Skaven weren't nerf hammered patch after patch just because some players are good at microing Doomwheels and Eshin troops in the multiplayer.


    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    edited August 2018

    @uriak

    CA made the Skaven a complete chore to play as in campaign and on the battlefield with bafflingly bad design decisions and kept nerfhammering them in every patch (latest genius move? nerf Menace From Below Clanrats to degrade much faster, brilliant!), so saying now, "well, looks like people don't like them, so let's ignore them" is incredibly disingenious if that's the reasoning behind it.

    They took repeated dumps on the Hamburger and then decided that the fact few people want to eat it is a sign of something being wrong with Hamburgers in general and they should go for Hot Dogs instead. This is infuriating to the nth degree!

    This is one of the rare instances where the theory that "MP ruins SP" may bear some truth. The campaign was difficult and stuff that is not unbalanced against AI was considered so in multiplayer.

    That said, how to tell if Skaven would have been popular otherwise? I feel as a player they suffer from 3 things that are difficult to avoid : they aren't human like, they haven't a complete combined arm model (ranged, infantry, heavy/light cav, arty, monsters) and visually their armies don't stand out as some of the "nice in numbers" do (Empires, elves) A skaven army is a kind of blurry mess of brown and green.

    Of course these liabilties are what makes them attrative for other people who enjoy their flaws, visuals and feeling. I tend to think rosters that covers all are ultimately kinda similar. But current skaven tactics are a bit limited, true.
    And there is the stuff we have debated a lot about : how factions relying on lower quality troops are punished economically for doing so. Many of the flaw of the Skaven campaigns can be traced to this design issue (true for GS, too)

    I can't be sure if they ignore them (for now) because of unpopularity of if more simply, in the case of very limited resources (there is one smallish additional content team) whatever they do will delay stuff for other factions for a while. A new campaign pack was maybe deemed to have a better replay value for most of the players for now. You could even see a silver lining in that introducing TEB would be an eventual Skavenblight start much more interesting.
  • DebaucheeDebauchee Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,406


    The simple reality is TWW fans simply don't like monster races, nor do they like destruction races. The fact is that Skaven are the least played of all the races. It's simply how it is. People can make excuses for this till the cows come home but it doesn't change that fact.

    So, Warhammer III is dead-on-arrival?


  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,907
    Looking at recent polls I'd say LM and HE are the most popular followed by Skaven and then DE although they are both similar. I think a saving grace for Skaven is people like them from playing the table top and this is over and above the mechanics. I think they play really well although you must accept that you can't just play them like any other race you must swarm and be aggressive.

    I think WH2 is a better game than WH1, partially because of the size of the race options in the ME campaign but overall it's generally better.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,907
    edited August 2018
    I think the death from below is a really powerful tool. Placing the marker on top of an enemy formation causes splash damage even before the clanrats attack.

    sigh.. leave this place for a few days and come back to everyone slagging off the Skaven.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,746
    Debauchee said:


    The simple reality is TWW fans simply don't like monster races, nor do they like destruction races. The fact is that Skaven are the least played of all the races. It's simply how it is. People can make excuses for this till the cows come home but it doesn't change that fact.

    So, Warhammer III is dead-on-arrival?
    Without an order race (or races) then pretty much. People make all this fuss about Demons, but if what we've seen in TWW1 and TWW2 holds true they'll be battling Ogres for the least played slot. Though this is really getting off topic now.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • DebaucheeDebauchee Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,406
    I hope you are wrong with your estimation of monster popularity. If filthy casuals can't handle Skaven, then who's gonna apreciate Ogre Kingdom master race?
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    Ogres will bring at the very least the power fantasy of absolute asskicking units in their category : infantry, ranged, cavalry. The campaign may show their limitations (they are just ogres afterall, not an empire)

    Skavens have been the most sketchy faction to represent, even if many people dislike horde gameplay, we can say that at the very least they fit the theme of both WoC and BM, moreso with their specificities (large and slow unstoppable WoC invaders, hit and run BM ) Currently they play mostly like another faction though in lore they are both superior and inferior to others because they settle where people can't reach them and can't really work together. Both things were hard to display in such a game (you don't partially occupy a place, and who likes an empire that is constantly rebelling? )

    Anyway, sorry for derailling this, OP. I think a pistol would be nice, even though ranged characters in this category aren't often really liked (since their value is in their spells anyway and if they are caught up the imortant are their melee stats) The fact that characters exhaust themselves by firing is part of the issue..

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,974
    Ogres are more "good" than norsca. And alot more human-like than beastmen or skaven.

    They have alot of cool stuff. They might be really popular.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    Like GS and skaven they should get their healthy share of "fun" elements it's important. I mean they are large guys that armor the only part of their body they value : the belly, you can't get too serious with such a premise.

    I do think game 3 needs order factions playable be it Kislev or simpley have Empire/dwarfs playable for who owns them in the stand alone campaign. If only because the chaos needs powerful opponents.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014
    Debauchee said:

    I hope you are wrong with your estimation of monster popularity. If filthy casuals can't handle Skaven, then who's gonna apreciate Ogre Kingdom master race?

    I think he is partially wrong. I say this every time. Most of the inhuman/inhuman looking/ monster factions (however you want to say it) are also the harder factions due to them actually having a hard to learn playstyle (TKs, Skaven.) Or being neglected by CA and being really "low energy" (Greenskins.)

    Lizardmen are both easy to play, and an order faction, and last I checked they were more popular than Dark Elves.

    The most popular factions tend to be human and stuff, yes. But they also tend to be easiest to learn and play. Empire was sold as the "most like a normal Total War faction." High Elves are the most normal TW faction of game 2. Lizardmen in close second since they have such beefy mid tier units AND Rome 2 style javelin tosser Skink Cohorts.
  • FrostPawFrostPaw Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    edited August 2018
    Zergles said:


    Lizardmen are both easy to play, and an order faction, and last I checked they were more popular than Dark Elves.


    Pretty sure Dark Elves win the popularity contest, there's a reason they made them a "good" faction in the Age Of Sigmar remake and distanced themselves from the heavy Slaanesh influence.

    Perhaps you mean in the Total War games though, to which I have no true bearing besides the times I watch twitch streams.
  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014
    FrostPaw said:

    Zergles said:


    Lizardmen are both easy to play, and an order faction, and last I checked they were more popular than Dark Elves.


    Pretty sure Dark Elves win the popularity contest, there's a reason they made them a "good" faction in the Age Of Sigmar remake and distanced themselves from the heavy Slaanesh influence.

    Perhaps you mean in the Total War games though, to which I have no true bearing besides the times I watch twitch streams.
    Meant in tw
  • ptavangarptavangar Registered Users Posts: 1,170
    Debauchee said:


    The simple reality is TWW fans simply don't like monster races, nor do they like destruction races. The fact is that Skaven are the least played of all the races. It's simply how it is. People can make excuses for this till the cows come home but it doesn't change that fact.

    So, Warhammer III is dead-on-arrival?


    Don't listen to him. People love monsters. He does not speak for the player base. It is common knowledge that players want more monsters and cool interesting units. It would be a very dry game if they left out monsters. Half the point of Warhammer FANTASY titles is the FANTASY element. What says fantasy more than big cool monsters tearing stuff up...
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,706
    Let's all stop the personal commentary. Everyone's opinion is permitted in a thread if it is posted within the framework of the Forum Terms & Conditions. That means basically on topic of discussion.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
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