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A case for Chaos Divided, how it could be done

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  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,327Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Crossil said:


    What ton of TT stuff? Daemons and Ogres are two TT 8th ed armies left. Chaos Dwarfs are ancient and Kislev wasn't an army list. You can get those 2 but there isn't "ton" of TT stuff left aside from races that are already in. I could also say why add Norsca when there is content for WoC that still needs implementing.

    You said 75% is WoC so I wanted to show there are different units to find. Chaos Cults I mention because they are technically dedicated to individual Chaos gods so it makes sense to include them in god races.

    Exactly, races that are already in. TWW 3 is the perfect time to start dropping stuff like "old world lord pack". Besides DoC have a decent number of armybook units as well as WoC missing a large portion of their armybook, which should be implemented. There's no good reason to invent new units for Chaos when they already have a ton in official TT, they are not Bretonnia. Norsca was added becasue CA decided they want a race as a preorder bonus for WH2 and no new race could be added in WH1, except Skaven which were already planned for WH2. Besides they always felt like a placeholder on campaign map.

    Yes, you can make it 66% or 50% WoC if you make a ton of really obscure or homebrew units, that still makes in mostly WoC. There's really no good reason to not make it a WoC subfaction and there's no need for bloating it with non TT units. If anything, aesthetically the rosters would feel better as mostly aligned WoC + DoC and less like a mix of random units.
    Crossil said:


    Well Druchii Annointed for Slaanesh? Convenient to ignore right?

    So yeah, you could add a random DE unit to Slaaneshi roster as well. That doesn't really help anyone, apart from it feeling lonely and out of place.
    Crossil said:


    Well, you pretty much gave a reason why Slaanesh Warriors wouldn't wear armor with enjoying it comment.

    I mean, there might be a reason, but both on TT and in the lore they wear chaos armor on the battlefield. Unless you want CA to create a non lore friendly unit there's no good reason for them not to. Besides, I think even most WoC fans think of heavily armored dudes, perhaps in fancier armor, when thinking of chosen of Slaanesh. Having them in light/no armor would be just weird.
    Post edited by MadDemiurg on

    Team Skaven

    Team O&G

  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 3,030Registered Users
    edited August 2018

    Crossil said:


    What ton of TT stuff? Daemons and Ogres are two TT 8th ed armies left. Chaos Dwarfs are ancient and Kislev wasn't an army list. You can get those 2 but there isn't "ton" of TT stuff left aside from races that are already in. I could also say why add Norsca when there is content for WoC that still needs implementing.

    You said 75% is WoC so I wanted to show there are different units to find. Chaos Cults I mention because they are technically dedicated to individual Chaos gods so it makes sense to include them in god races.

    Exactly, races that are already in. TWW 3 is the perfect time to start dropping stuff like "old world lord pack". Besides DoC have a decent number of armybook units as well as WoC missing a large portion of their armybook, which should be implemented. There's no good reason to invent new units for Chaos when they already have a ton in official TT, they are not Bretonnia.

    Yes, you can make it 66% or 50% WoC if you make a ton of really obscure or homebrew units, that still makes in mostly WoC. There's really no good reason to not make it a WoC subfaction and there's no need for bloating it with non TT units.

    You are pretty delusional if you think they'll drop Old World LPs in game 3. As for WoC missing stuff god specific additions can be made in god specific races and then ported over to WoC.

    Cults and Druchii Annointed aren't any specific type of unit they can be a way for CA to implement units which fill different roles. Due to Slaanesh worshiping Cult of Pleasure some Dark Elf units can appear. You might have a case for WoC being similar but these are open-ended.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,327Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:


    What ton of TT stuff? Daemons and Ogres are two TT 8th ed armies left. Chaos Dwarfs are ancient and Kislev wasn't an army list. You can get those 2 but there isn't "ton" of TT stuff left aside from races that are already in. I could also say why add Norsca when there is content for WoC that still needs implementing.

    You said 75% is WoC so I wanted to show there are different units to find. Chaos Cults I mention because they are technically dedicated to individual Chaos gods so it makes sense to include them in god races.

    Exactly, races that are already in. TWW 3 is the perfect time to start dropping stuff like "old world lord pack". Besides DoC have a decent number of armybook units as well as WoC missing a large portion of their armybook, which should be implemented. There's no good reason to invent new units for Chaos when they already have a ton in official TT, they are not Bretonnia.

    Yes, you can make it 66% or 50% WoC if you make a ton of really obscure or homebrew units, that still makes in mostly WoC. There's really no good reason to not make it a WoC subfaction and there's no need for bloating it with non TT units.

    You are pretty delusional if you think they'll drop Old World LPs in game 3. As for WoC missing stuff god specific additions can be made in god specific races and then ported over to WoC.

    Cults and Druchii Annointed aren't any specific type of unit they can be a way for CA to implement units which fill different roles. Due to Slaanesh worshiping Cult of Pleasure some Dark Elf units can appear. You might have a case for WoC being similar but these are open-ended.

    I don't see a reason why not. The vast majority of fanbase is in the first two games, I think these are going to sell better than "another WoC" faction.

    Yes, if you go into complete homebrew territory and add dark elf archers and chaos amazons to Slaanesh and vile puke mortar to Nurgle these can probably be made more distinct, but at this point I want Cathay and fish elves. And the monogod subfactions start feeling more like a random band of wagabonds. To me, monogods feel perfect as 75% WoC and 25% DoC and being implemented as WoC subfactions and really the only reason some people don't want it that way is likely because they want an obscene number of WoC lords. Which as I said, I don't see a reason to have 3 times as many as any other race or want them over DoC in the base game (even though DoC are more interesting by far, at least in my opinion).

    Speaking of 4 starting races (if there indeed needs to be 4, cause there's no written rule for it), it might as well be DoC, CD, Ogres and... WoC.

    It does create some issues as WoC are a dlc already but there are ways around it and people will get **** no matter what. It's not any worse than 2 monogods at start that reuse a ton of WoC assets anyway.

    New WoC are going to be god aligned subfactions starting with 2 lords just like all TWW1 and 2 factions. DoC will start with 2 subfactions of their own.

    Team Skaven

    Team O&G

  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 3,030Registered Users

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:


    What ton of TT stuff? Daemons and Ogres are two TT 8th ed armies left. Chaos Dwarfs are ancient and Kislev wasn't an army list. You can get those 2 but there isn't "ton" of TT stuff left aside from races that are already in. I could also say why add Norsca when there is content for WoC that still needs implementing.

    You said 75% is WoC so I wanted to show there are different units to find. Chaos Cults I mention because they are technically dedicated to individual Chaos gods so it makes sense to include them in god races.

    Exactly, races that are already in. TWW 3 is the perfect time to start dropping stuff like "old world lord pack". Besides DoC have a decent number of armybook units as well as WoC missing a large portion of their armybook, which should be implemented. There's no good reason to invent new units for Chaos when they already have a ton in official TT, they are not Bretonnia.

    Yes, you can make it 66% or 50% WoC if you make a ton of really obscure or homebrew units, that still makes in mostly WoC. There's really no good reason to not make it a WoC subfaction and there's no need for bloating it with non TT units.

    You are pretty delusional if you think they'll drop Old World LPs in game 3. As for WoC missing stuff god specific additions can be made in god specific races and then ported over to WoC.

    Cults and Druchii Annointed aren't any specific type of unit they can be a way for CA to implement units which fill different roles. Due to Slaanesh worshiping Cult of Pleasure some Dark Elf units can appear. You might have a case for WoC being similar but these are open-ended.

    I don't see a reason why not. The vast majority of fanbase is in the first two games, I think these are going to sell better than "another WoC" faction.

    Yes, if you go into complete homebrew territory and add dark elf archers and chaos amazons to Slaanesh and vile puke mortar to Nurgle these can probably be made more distinct, but at this point I want Cathay and fish elves. And the monogod subfactions start feeling more like a random band of wagabonds.
    First is a completely senseless comment because they can't even be in game 3.

    Second is trying to change partial "homebrew" of one race with entire one of another. Because if some things I counted are homebrew then Cathay and fish elves are entirely.

    Then again I'd say you're pretty much telling me **** off aren't you?
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • GingerRoeBroGingerRoeBro Senior Member Posts: 2,729Registered Users

    @Ludbone Now onto what little content there is in your commentary. Those polls are simply irrelevant for reasons that are so obvious I wont explain them.

    The fact is that order races are by far the most played races in TWW1 and TWW2. The fact is destruction races are the least played races of TWW1 and TWW2. These are undisputed facts.

    Now, as to the logic behind an undivided Demon race only resulting in less players I can't be bothered because again, it's obvious, but I will copy paste @Draxynnic "However, your claim essentially came across as there being two groups of people: people who are interested in playing Chaos multiple times, and people who only play good and pretty races.

    That is, very much, not the case. There's a third category: people who are interested in evil and/or monster races, but aren't interested in Chaos specifically (at least not enough to play WoC over and over again). One could even postulate a fourth group: people who are interested specifically in demons, and don't want to dilute their demons with a bunch of pathetic mortal wannabes.

    A Chaos-only game would only cater to group 1. The "compromise position" of two monogod races, OK, and CD caters to groups 1 (as long as their favourite god isn't one of the ones skipped over...) and 3. Undivided DoC, OK, and CD caters to groups 1, 3, and 4. Undivided DoC, OK, CD, and a human civilisation caters to all four."

    The reason you don't explain is because you have no explanation.

    Try to lay off the "feels" and start using some facts :wink:
    Bigger Budget for game 3?

    They're gonna need it for all of the monogod glory.
    Which will be the "4 distinct gods representing the different aspects of Chaos such as Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle." :blush: ^CA quote

    Thank you CA for seeing them as what they truly are.
    Let the Games Begin!
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/The_Great_Game
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,327Registered Users
    Crossil said:



    First is a completely senseless comment because they can't even be in game 3.

    Second is trying to change partial "homebrew" of one race with entire one of another. Because if some things I counted are homebrew then Cathay and fish elves are entirely.

    Then again I'd say you're pretty much telling me **** off aren't you?

    I mean, in the recent AMA CA more or less acknowledged the possibility of DLCs for older game races and cross game DLCs. Game 1 and 2 races likely won't be in game 3 campaign, but they will be on combined campaign map, which a lot of players see as "main" campaign anyway. So I don't see anything that prevents it from happening.

    And no, I'm not telling you to **** off, I'm a polite person most of the time.

    Team Skaven

    Team O&G

  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 3,030Registered Users

    Crossil said:



    First is a completely senseless comment because they can't even be in game 3.

    Second is trying to change partial "homebrew" of one race with entire one of another. Because if some things I counted are homebrew then Cathay and fish elves are entirely.

    Then again I'd say you're pretty much telling me **** off aren't you?

    I mean, in the recent AMA CA more or less acknowledged the possibility of DLCs for older game races and cross game DLCs. Game 1 and 2 races likely won't be in game 3 campaign, but they will be on combined campaign map, which a lot of players see as "main" campaign anyway. So I don't see anything that prevents it from happening.

    And no, I'm not telling you to **** off, I'm a polite person most of the time.
    Players see it as such, what makes you think CA does too? Them acknowledging crossover DLC doesn't mean that's main type of DLC rather than one instance or two. Specifically Eltharion and Grom. I don't think these LPs are going to be in any way main DLC for game 3 as CA has pretty much been planning at making each game self contained and having content for other games rather than its own is ridiculous in this way.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 550Registered Users
    If monogod DoC is to be a thing then each god's race has to be an independent roster that actually feels complete. How many untis does that take? Skaven are at 40 right now, I believe, and they're not complete. Even assuming just 30 units per monogod race, we're still talking about 120 DoC units overall. And then we'd have DoC rosters with no depth.

    Consider also that this will have to play in with other factions in the game. Can't really release WH3 with 30 unit DoC races and then 50-60 unit OK and CD. The difference would be jarring. But they also can't really release WH3 with monogod DoC races that have 30 units each and then cut down OK and CDs to 30-40 units for the sake of consistency, because then people would complain rather loudly that they're releasing half-rostered races.

    And they can't release the game with two monogod DoC races that have 50+ units each along with CD and OK at a similar number, because then they'll eventually also have to caugh up another two monogod DoC races that have just as many units, and 200 units for DoC overall is potentially a whole lot of Charlemagnes.

    Also, how do you actually reach just 30-40 units for DoC? The most obvious way is to borrow heavily from WoC and Beastmen, isn't it? If we end up with lords, heroes, maybe 5-6 actually unique monogod units, and then monogod versions of chaos warriors, chosen, gors then all four monogod DoC factions will feel rather alike. And we'd have red gors versus blue gors, red chaos warriors versus blue chaos warriors. That's not a good outcome, is it? Even if CA were to come through with comestic differences, we're still talking about polished up gors, chaos warriors, et cetera.

    Alternatively, if the roster size isn't going to come from borrowed untis from WoC and Beastmen then where is it going to come from? What's it going to consist of? I've seen the occasional "impressive list" thrown around from different people, but that list is only impressive for a single race. We essentially need 120 different and unique units, with 40 attributable to each god, and we need them scattered all over the quality spectrum to make game progression work. No list I've seen comes anywhere close to delivering that.

    And a follow-up problem, if you decide that borrowing stuff from WoC and the Goatpeople is perfectly fine, just pad the numbers that way, then that leads to the next problem: What's left for them if their stuff is also available from vanilla WH3 races?

    All in all, I really don't like the idea of monogod DoC races. It's just not something that I can see ending up working out. I want a DoC super-faction that really blows me away, with as much DoC-specific stuff that CA can possibly manage and as little overlap with WoC or BST or anyone else as possible. What I don't want are hollowed out husks that overlap each other and other factions quite a lot.

    Or to put it differently, I want just one slice of bread with entirely too much butter, rather than too little butter spread over too many slices of bread. I want one Ferrari, not four miserable Fiats. I want the whole chocolate bar now rather than a little bite now and maybe another one tomorrow. I want a single case of glorious excess rather than a moderately good effort repeated four times. I want quality over quantity.

    In short, give me just one DoC race and then invest what it costs to make it glorious. That, to me, sounds like a much better idea than four separate DoC races that will almost certainly be starved for resources.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 4,884Registered Users

    Draxynnic said:

    Suggestions like the fast, lightly armoured, AP Slaaneshi Chosen versus plodding, tanky, relatively low-damage Nurgle Chosen are creating differences which, while flavourful, never existed in the tabletop (whereas the Elves have had differences flattened out).

    Not even that. Slaaneshi chosen aren't that different, even in the lore. So it's not a flavorful thing, it's just fan fiction. They aren't noise marines, sorry. Pretty much all chaos warriors wear chaos armor. It would be weird for them to have significantly different armor values. It's not like Chaos Dwarfs make crappier armor depending on your god of choice. I mean, Slaaneshi warriors might want to leave some... convenience openings in the armor which could be exploited, especially by short races like Skaven and Dwarfs, but that doesn't warrant a huge armor value difference. Ultimately both Slaaneshi and Nurgle chosen are tough bastards and while Nurgle followers might not feel pain Slaanesh followers probably enjoy it.
    Honestly, I've always felt that Games Workshop missed an opportunity with how samey the mortal followers of the various gods were. Now, I can easily see the reasons for it: Chaos already had one of the lists in the tabletop with the most options (particularly before they got divided up in 7E), and multiplying them out would have made it ridiculous both from a balance perspective and a production perspective.

    But it always irked me that, despite how different the Chaos Gods were presented as being, the Warriors of Chaos pretty much all fought like Khornates. Okay, they don't all frenzy, and the marks do create some minor modifications to their behaviour, but ultimately, they're all about big armoured (or shirtless) dudes with big axes. Where are the Tzeentch cultists? The Nurgle plague zombies? Slaaneshi who treat war as an art form and wear unencumbering armour and wield exotic weapons rather than just using a bunch of axes? For that matter, why does any Slaaneshi view being sealed within armour that can never be removed as a reward?

    There's a degree to which Clan Pestilens make better plague-worshippers than mortal Nurgle-followers. Clan Pestilens has weaponised plague in so many ways - censor bearers spreading airborne pathogens in a cruel parody of the incense censors used in medieval medicine, catapults launching payloads of stuff that is better not mentioned. What do Nurgle warriors have? A cloud of flies, a bad smell, and a resistance to dying from disease. And a special lore based around disease, but Clan Pestilens has that too.

    Which is why I like what's been done with Chaos in AoS - they're actually drawing out these differences.

    CA does have the opportunity here to actually make them feel genuinely different. It's risky, though, as I've stated elsewhere: doing so would essentially be creating new minor races rather than simply copying out things that existed in the tabletop, and people who do just want four different flavours of WoC with assorted demon allies might be upset because CA didn't do that. But there is potential for creativity there, as long as it doesn't come in lieu of united demons, which ARE a valid 8E list.

    All that aside, though: This thread isn't supposed to be yet another "should we get monogod as core Game 3 races". I don't think anyone here is presently objecting to monogod lists as DLC, which is implicit acceptance of them coming at some stage. What form could they take? What mechanics can they have on the strategic map that distinguish them from each other?
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users
    @Ludbone Now onto what little content there is in your commentary. Those polls are simply irrelevant for reasons that are so obvious I wont explain them.

    The fact is that order races are by far the most played races in TWW1 and TWW2. The fact is destruction races are the least played races of TWW1 and TWW2. These are undisputed facts.

    Now, as to the logic behind an undivided Demon race only resulting in less players I'll copy paste @Draxynnic "However, your claim essentially came across as there being two groups of people: people who are interested in playing Chaos multiple times, and people who only play good and pretty races.

    That is, very much, not the case. There's a third category: people who are interested in evil and/or monster races, but aren't interested in Chaos specifically (at least not enough to play WoC over and over again). One could even postulate a fourth group: people who are interested specifically in demons, and don't want to dilute their demons with a bunch of pathetic mortal wannabes.

    A Chaos-only game would only cater to group 1. The "compromise position" of two monogod races, OK, and CD caters to groups 1 (as long as their favourite god isn't one of the ones skipped over...) and 3. Undivided DoC, OK, and CD caters to groups 1, 3, and 4. Undivided DoC, OK, CD, and a human civilisation caters to all four."

    @Ludbone Now onto what little content there is in your commentary. Those polls are simply irrelevant for reasons that are so obvious I wont explain them.

    The fact is that order races are by far the most played races in TWW1 and TWW2. The fact is destruction races are the least played races of TWW1 and TWW2. These are undisputed facts.

    Now, as to the logic behind an undivided Demon race only resulting in less players I can't be bothered because again, it's obvious, but I will copy paste @Draxynnic "However, your claim essentially came across as there being two groups of people: people who are interested in playing Chaos multiple times, and people who only play good and pretty races.

    That is, very much, not the case. There's a third category: people who are interested in evil and/or monster races, but aren't interested in Chaos specifically (at least not enough to play WoC over and over again). One could even postulate a fourth group: people who are interested specifically in demons, and don't want to dilute their demons with a bunch of pathetic mortal wannabes.

    A Chaos-only game would only cater to group 1. The "compromise position" of two monogod races, OK, and CD caters to groups 1 (as long as their favourite god isn't one of the ones skipped over...) and 3. Undivided DoC, OK, and CD caters to groups 1, 3, and 4. Undivided DoC, OK, CD, and a human civilisation caters to all four."

    The reason you don't explain is because you have no explanation.

    Try to lay off the "feels" and start using some facts :wink:
    Did you wink at me? Ew. No.

    Fine, since you asked so nicely. Not representative or indicative of customer base, or number of buys. Done, you're welcome. Shall I explain why 2+2 = 4 next?
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users
    Crossil said:

    @Ludbone Now onto what little content there is in your commentary. Those polls are simply irrelevant for reasons that are so obvious I wont explain them.

    The fact is that order races are by far the most played races in TWW1 and TWW2. The fact is destruction races are the least played races of TWW1 and TWW2. These are undisputed facts.

    Now, as to the logic behind an undivided Demon race only resulting in less players I can't be bothered because again, it's obvious, but I will copy paste @Draxynnic "However, your claim essentially came across as there being two groups of people: people who are interested in playing Chaos multiple times, and people who only play good and pretty races.

    That is, very much, not the case. There's a third category: people who are interested in evil and/or monster races, but aren't interested in Chaos specifically (at least not enough to play WoC over and over again). One could even postulate a fourth group: people who are interested specifically in demons, and don't want to dilute their demons with a bunch of pathetic mortal wannabes.

    A Chaos-only game would only cater to group 1. The "compromise position" of two monogod races, OK, and CD caters to groups 1 (as long as their favourite god isn't one of the ones skipped over...) and 3. Undivided DoC, OK, and CD caters to groups 1, 3, and 4. Undivided DoC, OK, CD, and a human civilisation caters to all four."

    I don't think most-least played indicates buying desire at all. Even if it's just to have more of Warhammer people might want it. I can also make comments about these hard-lined fans that are mentioned being not indicative of any large groups and mostly as relevant as polls you dismiss.
    This is easy.

    If you think divided Demons implemented in any fashion will gather more sales than Demons, plus Ogres, plus Chaos Dwarfs, plus an order race then present your logic.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • GingerRoeBroGingerRoeBro Senior Member Posts: 2,729Registered Users

    Crossil said:

    @Ludbone Now onto what little content there is in your commentary. Those polls are simply irrelevant for reasons that are so obvious I wont explain them.

    The fact is that order races are by far the most played races in TWW1 and TWW2. The fact is destruction races are the least played races of TWW1 and TWW2. These are undisputed facts.

    Now, as to the logic behind an undivided Demon race only resulting in less players I can't be bothered because again, it's obvious, but I will copy paste @Draxynnic "However, your claim essentially came across as there being two groups of people: people who are interested in playing Chaos multiple times, and people who only play good and pretty races.

    That is, very much, not the case. There's a third category: people who are interested in evil and/or monster races, but aren't interested in Chaos specifically (at least not enough to play WoC over and over again). One could even postulate a fourth group: people who are interested specifically in demons, and don't want to dilute their demons with a bunch of pathetic mortal wannabes.

    A Chaos-only game would only cater to group 1. The "compromise position" of two monogod races, OK, and CD caters to groups 1 (as long as their favourite god isn't one of the ones skipped over...) and 3. Undivided DoC, OK, and CD caters to groups 1, 3, and 4. Undivided DoC, OK, CD, and a human civilisation caters to all four."

    I don't think most-least played indicates buying desire at all. Even if it's just to have more of Warhammer people might want it. I can also make comments about these hard-lined fans that are mentioned being not indicative of any large groups and mostly as relevant as polls you dismiss.
    This is easy.

    If you think divided Demons implemented in any fashion will gather more sales than Demons, plus Ogres, plus Chaos Dwarfs, plus an order race then present your logic.
    They already have multiple times over. Your biased nature keeps you from reading them.
    Plus, you have stated no logic. You consistently lie as pointed out by other people.

    Just face it, you will eventually have to use facts over feels.
    Bigger Budget for game 3?

    They're gonna need it for all of the monogod glory.
    Which will be the "4 distinct gods representing the different aspects of Chaos such as Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle." :blush: ^CA quote

    Thank you CA for seeing them as what they truly are.
    Let the Games Begin!
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/The_Great_Game
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,327Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:



    First is a completely senseless comment because they can't even be in game 3.

    Second is trying to change partial "homebrew" of one race with entire one of another. Because if some things I counted are homebrew then Cathay and fish elves are entirely.

    Then again I'd say you're pretty much telling me **** off aren't you?

    I mean, in the recent AMA CA more or less acknowledged the possibility of DLCs for older game races and cross game DLCs. Game 1 and 2 races likely won't be in game 3 campaign, but they will be on combined campaign map, which a lot of players see as "main" campaign anyway. So I don't see anything that prevents it from happening.

    And no, I'm not telling you to **** off, I'm a polite person most of the time.
    Players see it as such, what makes you think CA does too? Them acknowledging crossover DLC doesn't mean that's main type of DLC rather than one instance or two. Specifically Eltharion and Grom. I don't think these LPs are going to be in any way main DLC for game 3 as CA has pretty much been planning at making each game self contained and having content for other games rather than its own is ridiculous in this way.
    There are plenty of possibilities even on game map 3 like Hell Pit and Nagashizzar likely being there. And what makes you think to the contrary? The trilogy would be complete and could be regarded as a whole product the moment game 3 is out, so it's not "content for other games". Both your and my ideas are just speculations about how CA is going to handle it, but there's nothing preventing them handling it the way I said and it's likely to reach a broader audience and boost sales of both old and new content. It's also likely that game 1 content > game 2 content > game 3 content in quantity so I wouldn't expect a big number of new races for 3 post release, or any. Anyways, this is getting off topic.
    Draxynnic said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Suggestions like the fast, lightly armoured, AP Slaaneshi Chosen versus plodding, tanky, relatively low-damage Nurgle Chosen are creating differences which, while flavourful, never existed in the tabletop (whereas the Elves have had differences flattened out).

    Not even that. Slaaneshi chosen aren't that different, even in the lore. So it's not a flavorful thing, it's just fan fiction. They aren't noise marines, sorry. Pretty much all chaos warriors wear chaos armor. It would be weird for them to have significantly different armor values. It's not like Chaos Dwarfs make crappier armor depending on your god of choice. I mean, Slaaneshi warriors might want to leave some... convenience openings in the armor which could be exploited, especially by short races like Skaven and Dwarfs, but that doesn't warrant a huge armor value difference. Ultimately both Slaaneshi and Nurgle chosen are tough bastards and while Nurgle followers might not feel pain Slaanesh followers probably enjoy it.
    Honestly, I've always felt that Games Workshop missed an opportunity with how samey the mortal followers of the various gods were. Now, I can easily see the reasons for it: Chaos already had one of the lists in the tabletop with the most options (particularly before they got divided up in 7E), and multiplying them out would have made it ridiculous both from a balance perspective and a production perspective.

    But it always irked me that, despite how different the Chaos Gods were presented as being, the Warriors of Chaos pretty much all fought like Khornates. Okay, they don't all frenzy, and the marks do create some minor modifications to their behaviour, but ultimately, they're all about big armoured (or shirtless) dudes with big axes. Where are the Tzeentch cultists? The Nurgle plague zombies? Slaaneshi who treat war as an art form and wear unencumbering armour and wield exotic weapons rather than just using a bunch of axes? For that matter, why does any Slaaneshi view being sealed within armour that can never be removed as a reward?

    There's a degree to which Clan Pestilens make better plague-worshippers than mortal Nurgle-followers. Clan Pestilens has weaponised plague in so many ways - censor bearers spreading airborne pathogens in a cruel parody of the incense censors used in medieval medicine, catapults launching payloads of stuff that is better not mentioned. What do Nurgle warriors have? A cloud of flies, a bad smell, and a resistance to dying from disease. And a special lore based around disease, but Clan Pestilens has that too.

    Which is why I like what's been done with Chaos in AoS - they're actually drawing out these differences.

    CA does have the opportunity here to actually make them feel genuinely different. It's risky, though, as I've stated elsewhere: doing so would essentially be creating new minor races rather than simply copying out things that existed in the tabletop, and people who do just want four different flavours of WoC with assorted demon allies might be upset because CA didn't do that. But there is potential for creativity there, as long as it doesn't come in lieu of united demons, which ARE a valid 8E list.

    All that aside, though: This thread isn't supposed to be yet another "should we get monogod as core Game 3 races". I don't think anyone here is presently objecting to monogod lists as DLC, which is implicit acceptance of them coming at some stage. What form could they take? What mechanics can they have on the strategic map that distinguish them from each other?
    Same can be said about almost any other race, like GW could've done Vampire bloodlines in much greater detail but they didn't. Doing them as whole races rather than subfactions would be a complete overkill though, we don't need 10 Vampire races and neither do we need 10 WoC races.

    Speaking of how monogod rosters should be done, I'll reiterate what I've said with some new stuff:

    -They should be implemented as WoC subfactions led by god aligned WoC lords. First level of importance DoC lords should be left to DoC, but less important ones that wouln't be in the game otherwise could show up in a mixed roster potentially (or not)
    -They can show up as DLC later on or be a part of the 4th "reworked WoC" core faction, which would start with 2 lords
    -They should be pretty much 75% WoC and 25% DoC with maybe an odd unit or two here and there. This also means they'll have a similar playstyle, but that's ok cause they're the same race.

    Subfactions:

    Khorne:

    Khorne warriors should have frenzy (meaning higher MA), no access to magic and armywide magic resist similar to dwarfs. I would replace shielded chosen and warrior variants with dual wielding ones to further empathize their offensive nature.

    Khorne Chosen could be replaced by Skullreapers if CA finds enough charlemagnes for a unique model. Wrathmongers could be a higher tier Aspiring Champions like unit with a few strong models that buffs and supports surrounding allies. They should also have access to Slaughterbrute and Skullcrushers (Bloodcrushers would be DoC exclusive so that we can have both, as having both in one roster is redundant) and Khorne part of the DoC roster, but lose marauder cavalry and dragon ogres.

    Unique campaign mechanics should be somewhat similar to Hellebron and Bretonnia where you need to be constantly fighting battles to keep bonuses and avoid retreating from combat, unless you want to suffer global penalties.

    Nurgle:

    Nurgle warriors would have more HP and/or MD. A fun visual tweak would be to give scythes to the GW variants. They could have a poison variant of the Chaos spawn, poison hounds and generally whatever poison unit you can find in WoC or Nurgle DoC roster.

    For campaign mechanics I would imagine they would benefit from corruption more than other subfactions, getting upkeep reduction and combat bonuses when it is high, and would be able to cause more severe attrition through corruption.

    You can replace Nurgle chosen with Blight Knights if enough charlemagnes. They should also miss marauder cav and DOs.

    Their most interesting/different unit is Blight Drones as a flying monstrous cav.

    Slaanesh:

    Slaanesh warriors would be immune to psy and move at light infantry speed. You could give them swords instead of axes as a more elegant weapon (visual thing). With access to Hellstriders, Slaaneshi roster would have better light cav than other WoC and should have marauder cav but I would remove DO, giants and hellcannons from them so that they have no artillery or big monsters and are forced to fight offensively.

    There isn't many unique Slaaneshi units unfortunately and a random DE unit would feed weird and out of place.

    Campaign mechanics should include unspeakable post combat actions with battle captives having boosted experience gain for lords and heroes and maybe having a "deviance" meter that needs to be maintained by certain actions, but not necessarily combat. In fact, repetitive actions should get diminishing returns and having a Slaaneshi lord slacking off could boost deviance as well.

    Tzeentch:

    I already wrote about Tzeentch, Tzeentch warriors could have physical resistance from their magic wards and are much more likely to be blessed with mutations. Tzeentch roster is the most tactically different one, having strong flyer and ranged options in horrors, screamers and flamers. This can warrant havings some gaps in the warrior lineup, specifically missing the GW variant (but not necessarily). Other unique stuff includes Mutalith Vortex Beast. Again, I would remove DO and marauder cav from this roster. I wouldn't mind if they homebrew a flying unit of chosen on disks cause disks are cool.

    Campaign mechanics could include getting random mutations with lords and/or units, boosted winds of magic reserves, and improved agent action/ambush detection/generally anything that deals with random chances.
    Post edited by MadDemiurg on

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  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users

    Crossil said:

    @Ludbone Now onto what little content there is in your commentary. Those polls are simply irrelevant for reasons that are so obvious I wont explain them.

    The fact is that order races are by far the most played races in TWW1 and TWW2. The fact is destruction races are the least played races of TWW1 and TWW2. These are undisputed facts.

    Now, as to the logic behind an undivided Demon race only resulting in less players I can't be bothered because again, it's obvious, but I will copy paste @Draxynnic "However, your claim essentially came across as there being two groups of people: people who are interested in playing Chaos multiple times, and people who only play good and pretty races.

    That is, very much, not the case. There's a third category: people who are interested in evil and/or monster races, but aren't interested in Chaos specifically (at least not enough to play WoC over and over again). One could even postulate a fourth group: people who are interested specifically in demons, and don't want to dilute their demons with a bunch of pathetic mortal wannabes.

    A Chaos-only game would only cater to group 1. The "compromise position" of two monogod races, OK, and CD caters to groups 1 (as long as their favourite god isn't one of the ones skipped over...) and 3. Undivided DoC, OK, and CD caters to groups 1, 3, and 4. Undivided DoC, OK, CD, and a human civilisation caters to all four."

    I don't think most-least played indicates buying desire at all. Even if it's just to have more of Warhammer people might want it. I can also make comments about these hard-lined fans that are mentioned being not indicative of any large groups and mostly as relevant as polls you dismiss.
    This is easy.

    If you think divided Demons implemented in any fashion will gather more sales than Demons, plus Ogres, plus Chaos Dwarfs, plus an order race then present your logic.
    They already have multiple times over. Your biased nature keeps you from reading them.
    Plus, you have stated no logic. You consistently lie as pointed out by other people.

    Just face it, you will eventually have to use facts over feels.
    Is that a thing now? Are people going to say I lie until they all convince themselves it's true? How boring. If you're going to do that pick something fun. Convince yourselves I'm a cat that taught itself to use the internet instead. That's as likely as me lying.

    As to my logic?

    The fact is that order races are by far the most played races in TWW1 and TWW2. The fact is destruction races are the least played races of TWW1 and TWW2. These are undisputed facts.

    Now, as to the logic behind an undivided Demon race only resulting in less players I can't be bothered because again, it's obvious, but I will copy paste @Draxynnic "However, your claim essentially came across as there being two groups of people: people who are interested in playing Chaos multiple times, and people who only play good and pretty races.

    That is, very much, not the case. There's a third category: people who are interested in evil and/or monster races, but aren't interested in Chaos specifically (at least not enough to play WoC over and over again). One could even postulate a fourth group: people who are interested specifically in demons, and don't want to dilute their demons with a bunch of pathetic mortal wannabes.

    A Chaos-only game would only cater to group 1. The "compromise position" of two monogod races, OK, and CD caters to groups 1 (as long as their favourite god isn't one of the ones skipped over...) and 3. Undivided DoC, OK, and CD caters to groups 1, 3, and 4. Undivided DoC, OK, CD, and a human civilisation caters to all four."
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,327Registered Users
    edited August 2018


    The reason you don't explain is because you have no explanation.:

    I don't agree with everything Gorilla says, but the explanations here are really obvious.

    Most of the people who take parts in these polls (and in this thread) are people who care about Chaos at all, for one reason or another. The vast majority likely doesn't doesn't give a ****. These forums (or reddit) are also not representative of the playerbase population and mostly include hardcore Warhammer or Total War fans, which most of the playerbase are not.

    To get actual unbiased stats, CA could've already used properly balanced focus groups that give good representation of the playerbase, but we don't know if they did or the results, so it's pointless to speculate anyway. Most or the undivided/divided forum polls ended pretty close in favor one or the other option, but again these are opinions of hardcore fans interested in the topic in the first place.

    If you want actual facts:
    -WoC and Beastmen were some of the least popular races in the game so far
    -The most popular (by far) are Empire and HE
    -By the look of it, game 2 will have less DLCs than game 1
    -It's reasonable to predict game 3 will have less, not more content, and overall game 1 sales are likely > game 2 > game 3 no matter what you do
    -CA has already said they're treating DoC as a separate armybook, and recent AMA confirmed that armybook races are the priority (monogods are not armybook races but DoC are)

    This is not to say "screw chaos", I still want DoC with all units, missing WoC units and marks, but the expectations of CA creating 4 new homebrew races for Chaos are just unreasonable (well, about as unreasonable as wanting a separate race for each Vampire bloodline or a separate forest goblin race).

    As a side note, as somewhat of a DoC fan (they're probably in top 5 of my favorite races) it also **** me off to have major DoC lords taken by what basically is a WoC roster (or a random homebrew roster, which isn't any better). It's like Empire fans wanting Louen Leoncoeur for themselves because he's also human. No he's not your lord. Go away.
    Post edited by MadDemiurg on

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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 4,884Registered Users


    -By the look of it, game 2 will have less DLCs than game 1

    Technically... only if you count preorder bonuses (Norsca, at least, came from the TWW2 marketing budget rather than the DLC budget).

    In terms of DLC that can't be acquired as a preorder bonus, TWW2 is going to have at least as much DLC as TWW1. Two campaign packs and two lord packs matches TWW1. If they manage to squeeze anything else in, they might even pull ahead.

    As a side note, as somewhat of a DoC fan (it's probably in top 5 of my favorite races) it also **** me off to have major DoC lords taken by what basically is a WoC roster. It's like Empire fans wanting Louen Leoncoeur for themselves because he's also human. No he's not your lord. Go away.

    Particularly since I'm pretty sure none of the special characters in the DoC book existed before the split.

    If you're going back to earlier editions when mixed monogod armies were a thing, might as well use the special characters that were around in those editions: that's where you find the mortal special characters who do have demons in their armies.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Posts: 2,327Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Draxynnic said:



    In terms of DLC that can't be acquired as a preorder bonus, TWW2 is going to have at least as much DLC as TWW1. Two campaign packs and two lord packs matches TWW1. If they manage to squeeze anything else in, they might even pull ahead.

    Game 1 had 5 extra races (WoC, Beastmen, WE, Bretonnia, Norsca). You could count Norsca as WH2 but it's the same for potential WH3 preorder then.

    Game 2 is TK + *unknown announced campaign pack* + *maybe WH3 preorder race*. They would need 2 more races to match.

    Lord pack wise, yes we're in the same boat so far. I actually expect game 2 might pull ahead in this regard with some cross game lord packs, but it will almost certainly be behind on races. It's likely game 3 will have even more lord packs (which are a much smaller DLC scope wise) and even less extra races (potentially 0) in my opinion.
    Post edited by MadDemiurg on

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  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,831Registered Users
    Regardless of the opinions on preferring divided or undivided I doubt CA deviates that much from the DoC army book. Also is CA even going to launch a third game with only four chaos factions? Or choose one and make people wait almost a year to get the other three?
  • DavidtheDukeDavidtheDuke Senior Member Posts: 2,156Registered Users
    If CA doesn't make Chaos where you start out as a monogod faction and work to unify chaos to become Everchosen they aren't doing Chaos right in the game where supposedly chaos will be the central theme. Anything less and the campaign would be boring anyway. There, bam, you have both monogod armies in the custom battle selection and the option to stay monogod in campaign. Going only one direction in either route would make the campaign dull and with no sense of accomplishment (uniting chaos and/or besting other gods to prove yo god can beat up their dad god).
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,583Registered Users
    edited August 2018

    If CA doesn't make Chaos where you start out as a monogod faction and work to unify chaos to become Everchosen they aren't doing Chaos right in the game where supposedly chaos will be the central theme. Anything less and the campaign would be boring anyway. There, bam, you have both monogod armies in the custom battle selection and the option to stay monogod in campaign. Going only one direction in either route would make the campaign dull and with no sense of accomplishment (uniting chaos and/or besting other gods to prove yo god can beat up their dad god).

    Exactly. Have been saying this from the beginning. You start with few units and as you conquer your divine rivals, you expand your roster. What's so hard about this to grasp? No splitting of rosters is needed.

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 13,404Registered Users

    If CA doesn't make Chaos where you start out as a monogod faction and work to unify chaos to become Everchosen they aren't doing Chaos right in the game where supposedly chaos will be the central theme. Anything less and the campaign would be boring anyway. There, bam, you have both monogod armies in the custom battle selection and the option to stay monogod in campaign. Going only one direction in either route would make the campaign dull and with no sense of accomplishment (uniting chaos and/or besting other gods to prove yo god can beat up their dad god).

    Exactly. Have been saying this from the beginning. You start with few units and as you conquer your divine rivals, you expand your roster. What's so hard about this to grasp? No splitting of rosters is needed.
    We agree.

    Whenever we agree on something I go from being 99.99&% sure I'm right to 100%. Thank you.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Cortes31Cortes31 Posts: 486Registered Users

    If CA doesn't make Chaos where you start out as a monogod faction and work to unify chaos to become Everchosen they aren't doing Chaos right in the game where supposedly chaos will be the central theme. Anything less and the campaign would be boring anyway. There, bam, you have both monogod armies in the custom battle selection and the option to stay monogod in campaign. Going only one direction in either route would make the campaign dull and with no sense of accomplishment (uniting chaos and/or besting other gods to prove yo god can beat up their dad god).

    Exactly. Have been saying this from the beginning. You start with few units and as you conquer your divine rivals, you expand your roster. What's so hard about this to grasp? No splitting of rosters is needed.
    And how would you conquer them without splitting them? That is the question for me.
    The only way I see this working for now would be special quest-battles.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,583Registered Users
    Cortes31 said:

    If CA doesn't make Chaos where you start out as a monogod faction and work to unify chaos to become Everchosen they aren't doing Chaos right in the game where supposedly chaos will be the central theme. Anything less and the campaign would be boring anyway. There, bam, you have both monogod armies in the custom battle selection and the option to stay monogod in campaign. Going only one direction in either route would make the campaign dull and with no sense of accomplishment (uniting chaos and/or besting other gods to prove yo god can beat up their dad god).

    Exactly. Have been saying this from the beginning. You start with few units and as you conquer your divine rivals, you expand your roster. What's so hard about this to grasp? No splitting of rosters is needed.
    And how would you conquer them without splitting them? That is the question for me.
    The only way I see this working for now would be special quest-battles.
    Eh, how? The Chaos Wastes are going to be the battleground with various gods holding various regions with Daemons, WoC and BM dedicated to them thriving there. You'd conquer them like you'd conquer any other faction.

  • Cortes31Cortes31 Posts: 486Registered Users

    Cortes31 said:

    If CA doesn't make Chaos where you start out as a monogod faction and work to unify chaos to become Everchosen they aren't doing Chaos right in the game where supposedly chaos will be the central theme. Anything less and the campaign would be boring anyway. There, bam, you have both monogod armies in the custom battle selection and the option to stay monogod in campaign. Going only one direction in either route would make the campaign dull and with no sense of accomplishment (uniting chaos and/or besting other gods to prove yo god can beat up their dad god).

    Exactly. Have been saying this from the beginning. You start with few units and as you conquer your divine rivals, you expand your roster. What's so hard about this to grasp? No splitting of rosters is needed.
    And how would you conquer them without splitting them? That is the question for me.
    The only way I see this working for now would be special quest-battles.
    Eh, how? The Chaos Wastes are going to be the battleground with various gods holding various regions with Daemons, WoC and BM dedicated to them thriving there. You'd conquer them like you'd conquer any other faction.
    Chaos Wastes?
    I don't think so. No factions besides WoC, DoC and BM? Conquering would have to work on the normal campaign map or not at all I say.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,583Registered Users
    edited August 2018
    Cortes31 said:

    Cortes31 said:

    If CA doesn't make Chaos where you start out as a monogod faction and work to unify chaos to become Everchosen they aren't doing Chaos right in the game where supposedly chaos will be the central theme. Anything less and the campaign would be boring anyway. There, bam, you have both monogod armies in the custom battle selection and the option to stay monogod in campaign. Going only one direction in either route would make the campaign dull and with no sense of accomplishment (uniting chaos and/or besting other gods to prove yo god can beat up their dad god).

    Exactly. Have been saying this from the beginning. You start with few units and as you conquer your divine rivals, you expand your roster. What's so hard about this to grasp? No splitting of rosters is needed.
    And how would you conquer them without splitting them? That is the question for me.
    The only way I see this working for now would be special quest-battles.
    Eh, how? The Chaos Wastes are going to be the battleground with various gods holding various regions with Daemons, WoC and BM dedicated to them thriving there. You'd conquer them like you'd conquer any other faction.
    Chaos Wastes?
    I don't think so. No factions besides WoC, DoC and BM? Conquering would have to work on the normal campaign map or not at all I say.
    What made you think Chaos Wastes would be the whole of the map?

  • Cortes31Cortes31 Posts: 486Registered Users

    Cortes31 said:



    Chaos Wastes?
    I don't think so. No factions besides WoC, DoC and BM? Conquering would have to work on the normal campaign map or not at all I say.

    What made you think Chaos Wastes would be the whole of the map?
    Because of all the LL who would start there. How many would that be? Four for DoC, WoC and BM so each god has one of each race? If not big enough, it is gonna be pretty crowded in that part of the map and conquering your rivals would be done within a few rounds.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 17,583Registered Users
    Cortes31 said:

    Cortes31 said:



    Chaos Wastes?
    I don't think so. No factions besides WoC, DoC and BM? Conquering would have to work on the normal campaign map or not at all I say.

    What made you think Chaos Wastes would be the whole of the map?
    Because of all the LL who would start there. How many would that be? Four for DoC, WoC and BM so each god has one of each race? If not big enough, it is gonna be pretty crowded in that part of the map and conquering your rivals would be done within a few rounds.
    Ever played Call of Warhammer? Because it's an example of what the WH3 map could be like.

  • DavidtheDukeDavidtheDuke Senior Member Posts: 2,156Registered Users

    Cortes31 said:

    Cortes31 said:



    Chaos Wastes?
    I don't think so. No factions besides WoC, DoC and BM? Conquering would have to work on the normal campaign map or not at all I say.

    What made you think Chaos Wastes would be the whole of the map?
    Because of all the LL who would start there. How many would that be? Four for DoC, WoC and BM so each god has one of each race? If not big enough, it is gonna be pretty crowded in that part of the map and conquering your rivals would be done within a few rounds.
    Ever played Call of Warhammer? Because it's an example of what the WH3 map could be like.
    Kind of.. I mean that's one of the odd things to me. One of the big themes about Chaos, WoC or DoC, is that they're usually invading some manner of Good Guys. Is the WH3 map going to include the Old World, but you can't play those factions without owning WH1 and whatever accompanying DLC? We'll have to see.

    It seems so natural to me that at first you'll be fighting other chaos factions while you either unite or just destroy everyone else and maybe run into chaos dwarfs etc. Then you head south to destroy southerners of your choice, and then the world.
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  • Cortes31Cortes31 Posts: 486Registered Users

    Cortes31 said:



    Because of all the LL who would start there. How many would that be? Four for DoC, WoC and BM so each god has one of each race? If not big enough, it is gonna be pretty crowded in that part of the map and conquering your rivals would be done within a few rounds.

    Ever played Call of Warhammer? Because it's an example of what the WH3 map could be like.
    No but I found a map preview on YouTube and I kinda like what they did with this part of the map.
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