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About Skaven summons

ReymReym Posts: 436Registered Users
edited September 2018 in Balancing Discussions
All summons in the game are actually unbreakable but slowly crumble as to compensate it.

Skaven summons being the exeption. They have both leadership and the crumbling effect.

As a result, exept maybe for the plague monk summon, they are pretty easy to counterand deal low damages or fail at disturbing an enemy unit well at the end.


I understand that it make sense to a skaven summon to stil have the leadership issues of all skavens. But combined with the crumbling effect the result is pretty bad as:

-Units lose leadership as they lose HP making them fleeing way faster.
-When retreating the unit continue of course to crumble so when they already rally, they wont be able to join the fight once again because they will finish to crumble on the way and also because the distance traveled while retreating is often pretty long because of the scurry away mechanic.


My though is maybe the crumbling aspect of those summons should go away.

If doing so maybe it would make them too strong but it's easy to balance it in my opinion as you can increase the WoM cost of those summons. Especially the plague monk one, the other not really as clan rats aren't that dangerous and the stormvermin one is already quite expensive because of its explosion.
You can also apply the same treatment done to menace below meaning that the summon unit count actually less models than the one you recruit (90 instead of 120 for the clan rat summon and the stormvermin one and 60 instead of 75 for the plague monk summon).


So what do you think of it ?

Post edited by Reym on

Comments

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,370Registered Users
    Personally I am not fond of the summoning mechanic at all for rats... it would be cool if the mechanic was completely different, something like reinforcement tunnel exits placed during the deployment phase anywhere on the map and "summons" would only target the exits. Something like that.

    I'd also like if Miners vanguard worked similarly. Placed anywhere on the map during deployment and receive perfect stalk until having moved once, then they would not have any stalk at all anymore.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 414Registered Users
    that would be too ambitious for game 2, but I hope in 3 we can pre-select the regiments that are originally in the list but that will act as surprise underground reinforcements: many skaven units, miners, night gobbos, tomb scorpions, all would be available in the UI like the ushabti one. And remove all skaven summons from spells, they shouldn't be considered as magic, unlike undead or demons summons.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,940Registered Users
    Getting permanent stormvermin and plague monks would be OP. Especially since you can spell stack.
  • ReymReym Posts: 436Registered Users

    Getting permanent stormvermin and plague monks would be OP. Especially since you can spell stack.


    Honestly if they increase the wom cost of plague monks spell stack is a non-issue, and the stormvermin summon cost 24 WoM good luck stacking that.

    They can also apply the same treatment done to menace below (NOT the map wide range) meaning that the summon unit count actually less models than the one you recruit so it mitigates the fact that those summons are permanent.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Posts: 2,940Registered Users
    Reym said:

    Getting permanent stormvermin and plague monks would be OP. Especially since you can spell stack.


    Honestly if they increase the wom cost of plague monks spell stack is a non-issue, and the stormvermin summon cost 24 WoM good luck stacking that.

    They can also apply the same treatment done to menace below (NOT the map wide range) meaning that the summon unit count actually less models than the one you recruit so it mitigates the fact that those summons are permanent.
    I forgot to mention clanrats. Those would be permanent too. That would definitely be OP.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,617Registered Users
    Either they remove the degradation or they remove morale from summoned Skaven units. Having both is stupid and unfair.

    Also, either Skaven get map-wide MfB summons or the TK get their broken map-wide Ushabti summon removed. Never has it been as blatant that CA is biased against the Skaven.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,370Registered Users

    that would be too ambitious for game 2, but I hope in 3 we can pre-select the regiments that are originally in the list but that will act as surprise underground reinforcements: many skaven units, miners, night gobbos, tomb scorpions, all would be available in the UI like the ushabti one. And remove all skaven summons from spells, they shouldn't be considered as magic, unlike undead or demons summons.

    I think it would be viable to get together with the 2019 Skaven DLC. What they'd need to do is just to create tunnel exits as an immobile "unit", then make summons target that "unit" only, still using WoM for now since everything is balanced around it. I think they could do it if they want to within this time frame.

    Of course the WoM cost could be reduced or some other buff would be warranted since fixed exit points would be a pretty significant nerf compared to placed summons.

    As for the moral/degen of summoned skaven I wouldn't mind a buff in that regard. There's also the thing that you can't exceed 20 unit cards so having lots of tattered summons late game may not only be a good thing, no?
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,250Registered Users

    Either they remove the degradation or they remove morale from summoned Skaven units. Having both is stupid and unfair.

    Also, either Skaven get map-wide MfB summons or the TK get their broken map-wide Ushabti summon removed. Never has it been as blatant that CA is biased against the Skaven.

    It has nothing to do with bias. MfB is entirely bound to to food and corruption, neither of which have any impact in MP. Similarly you dont get rite summons/spells/special defensive summons in MP. Ushabti summon is bound to realm of souls, which is a TK "perk"/faction trait. Murderous prowess is the closest analog to realm of souls in the way it operates(in fact, the only real analog) and it is still there for the DE.

    Skaven have plenty of problems, but derailing with bad equivalences does nothing to help the case for them getting a fix.
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  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 2,959Registered Users

    Either they remove the degradation or they remove morale from summoned Skaven units. Having both is stupid and unfair.

    Also, either Skaven get map-wide MfB summons or the TK get their broken map-wide Ushabti summon removed. Never has it been as blatant that CA is biased against the Skaven.

    Really? Can you imagine armies built for 12400 that can have additional 18 non degrading Clanrats?

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,617Registered Users
    edited September 2018

    Either they remove the degradation or they remove morale from summoned Skaven units. Having both is stupid and unfair.

    Also, either Skaven get map-wide MfB summons or the TK get their broken map-wide Ushabti summon removed. Never has it been as blatant that CA is biased against the Skaven.

    Really? Can you imagine armies built for 12400 that can have additional 18 non degrading Clanrats?

    Easy. In 40k 8th ed. all summons need to be bought beforehand. So you'd buy Clanrats at the start and mark them down as "MfB" which you could then summon in the battle proper.

    Would also fix Skaven being so slow and immobile on the battlefield (as in, have to rely on artillery a lot).

    TK should have to buy their summon as well.

  • y4g3ry4g3r Posts: 182Registered Users
    Why? Why should tomb kings pay for their one summon? This isn't a like trade. Tomb Kings have it as part of their faction ability.

    People are referring to the free summons that you get for *free*. They shouldn't be free if they don't break or suffer degeneration. If you want to pay for a unit of clanrats/plaugemonks with deepstrike, then you'll have to pay a premium on that ability, as being able to appear anywhere is ridiculously powerful.

    As they are, used well, you have a free cast of tying up ranged units, tying up artillery (maybe even to let you with that artillery duel), free rear charge to help break a key engagement, or even tie down a mobile unit. They don't last forever, but it's a more powerful ability than a lot of lords have and it gives amazing utility.

    If you don't utilise it well, it's not something that needs to be balanced.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,617Registered Users
    y4g3r said:

    Why? Why should tomb kings pay for their one summon? This isn't a like trade. Tomb Kings have it as part of their faction ability.

    MfB is also a faction ability, period.


  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 2,959Registered Users
    I wouldn't mind if Skaven payed for them. Still there would have to be a limit and/or cooldown. Having 10 units spawned in back line would be game breaking and unfun
  • RiccardoCorradiniRiccardoCorradini Posts: 657Registered Users

    y4g3r said:

    Why? Why should tomb kings pay for their one summon? This isn't a like trade. Tomb Kings have it as part of their faction ability.

    MfB is also a faction ability, period.

    It's a single player -campaign related-food and corruption related -army ability .period. In aniway is similar to realm of souls.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,617Registered Users

    y4g3r said:

    Why? Why should tomb kings pay for their one summon? This isn't a like trade. Tomb Kings have it as part of their faction ability.

    MfB is also a faction ability, period.

    It's a single player -campaign related-food and corruption related -army ability .period. In aniway is similar to realm of souls.
    This is not a valid objection. Tell me why Skaven shouldn't have summonable Clanrats if they paid for them beforehand?

  • RiccardoCorradiniRiccardoCorradini Posts: 657Registered Users
    You were sayng that mfb is a faction ability and comparing it to realm of souls...that is simply not true and i was responding only on that part.

    Also,because being able to spawn a permanent unit outtanowhere is unbelievebly strong and ,on top of that,would make vanguard deploy completely obsolete and useless
  • y4g3ry4g3r Posts: 182Registered Users

    y4g3r said:

    Why? Why should tomb kings pay for their one summon? This isn't a like trade. Tomb Kings have it as part of their faction ability.

    MfB is also a faction ability, period.

    Ah, your cherry-picked argument has won me over. /s

    MfB is already powerful. If you gave any army 8-15 free deepstrike permanent units it would make a mockery of any form of balancing.

    It currently provides you with an incredibly flexible ability to provide rear charges or ambush skirmishers and artillery. I've seen you complain elsewhere that it's unfair wlc are being outduelled by bolt throwers. Maybe use the tools you have to give you an advantage?

    If you want to talk about paying for a unit with this instead of vanguard, fine, but you'll pay extra. A lot extra. And you'll need to give it to dwarfs and a few other factions too. It isn't a skaven only trait.

    It stands however, that you're asking for free permanent deepstriking units, above the max 20 limit for an army. That's too powerful and shouldn't be changed.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,111Registered Users
    y4g3r said:

    y4g3r said:

    Why? Why should tomb kings pay for their one summon? This isn't a like trade. Tomb Kings have it as part of their faction ability.

    MfB is also a faction ability, period.

    Ah, your cherry-picked argument has won me over. /s

    MfB is already powerful. If you gave any army 8-15 free deepstrike permanent units it would make a mockery of any form of balancing.

    It currently provides you with an incredibly flexible ability to provide rear charges or ambush skirmishers and artillery. I've seen you complain elsewhere that it's unfair wlc are being outduelled by bolt throwers. Maybe use the tools you have to give you an advantage?

    If you want to talk about paying for a unit with this instead of vanguard, fine, but you'll pay extra. A lot extra. And you'll need to give it to dwarfs and a few other factions too. It isn't a skaven only trait.

    It stands however, that you're asking for free permanent deepstriking units, above the max 20 limit for an army. That's too powerful and shouldn't be changed.
    I dont think its a bad idea, but yes it would have to cost a lot more. Dwarfs would really benefit a lot from it also. It would also be great for beastmen as it could provide a way to implement their ambush rules from tabletop.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 4,608Registered Users
    summoning a unit anywhere on the battlefield, preventing charges and remedying bad positioning last minute, not to mention summoning it on top of archers, artillery etc. with little limitations is just bad design. The game needs less of these abilities, not see them enhanced
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,617Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    summoning a unit anywhere on the battlefield, preventing charges and remedying bad positioning last minute, not to mention summoning it on top of archers, artillery etc. with little limitations is just bad design. The game needs less of these abilities, not see them enhanced

    False, it needs these abilities in a balanced fashion. Skaven are known for fighting dirty and so they definitely should have a way to express this in game.
    TK meanwhile are not know for this and therefore should either lose it or have to pay for it. Just like Morghur should have to pay for the one "free" summon he has.

  • RiccardoCorradiniRiccardoCorradini Posts: 657Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    summoning a unit anywhere on the battlefield, preventing charges and remedying bad positioning last minute, not to mention summoning it on top of archers, artillery etc. with little limitations is just bad design. The game needs less of these abilities, not see them enhanced

    False, it needs these abilities in a balanced fashion. Skaven are known for fighting dirty and so they definitely should have a way to express this in game.
    TK meanwhile are not know for this and therefore should either lose it or have to pay for it. Just like Morghur should have to pay for the one "free" summon he has.
    having stalk and /or vanguard on half of their unit is not enough to count as "fighting sirty?"
    having a ton of poison attacker/missiles don't count too?
    having more models on the field than every other factions don't count too?
    being able to summon clanrats,plague monks and stormvermin don't count too?

    i think we have a different way of thinking "fighting dirty".

    i do think that skaven summon could see a revisit and maybe degenerate at less rate,or some other stuff..just because it's logic for them to don't degenerate and to not being umbreakable. but being able to add permanent unit is a uber overpower thing and being able to spam several units,even if degenerating and not unbrekable ,anywhere on the battlefield is maybe even worse.

    TK ARE ALREADY paying for their summon because their unit are balanced around realm of souls. the entire stats of the entire factions take into account the summon of ushabti and the regen of HP. they are balanced around it,just like DE are (badly ) balanced around murderous prowess...so it's not "free". it's a cost that you don't see in the screeen but that is added in all their infantry units , that infact sucks compared to other same cost units stats wise
  • BrynjarKBrynjarK Posts: 212Registered Users
    Plus a well placed skaven summon combined with the suicide explosion skill is just... well almost a cheat :D
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