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Buff Temple Guard?

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  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Registered Users Posts: 1,063
    Green0 said:


    2-6 MA/MD buff would be a huge buff that would make them too good for every purpose while I (and probably others) think that they shouls be good vs armored large and average-to-bad vs infantry.

    Why should they only be good versus armoured large? Why should they be bad vs infantry? What is that assertion based on?

    And what's the point of that anyway? It's not temple guards can actually catch armoured large and it's not like they have the mass to prevent such from simply running away. Carnosaurs and horned ones handle armoured large better anyway, which means you're effectively arguing that temple guards should be borderline useless, does it not?
    Green0 said:

    - GW and sword and shield variant is a bit ridiculous, might as well make Chaos Warriors (Spears) and Swordmasters (Sword and Shield). Goodbye asymmetrical balance and fun and every faction becomes a reskin of the other.

    Well, yes and no. There should not be a sword and shield variant of temple guards, they should simply come with halberds and shields. But they should have more regular MA and less BvL. In part because they're not clumsy halberd troops but essentially swordsmen that uses halberds as their swords. In part because they don't get the number of attacks in TW that they would in TT to make up for their "low" weapon skill.

    And this would not break the asymmetric balance. Temple guards with 36 base MA and only 12 BvL would still get killed by swordmasters and chosen but they'd look a bit less pathetic versus most infantry. At 40-42 MD they'd still lag behind even regular chaos warriors but they'd feel a lot more like the elite warriors they're supposed to be.

    As for chaos warriors with spears, why bother when you already have CW halberds? It would not be lore-unfriendly, but it would be utterly pointless. And Swordsmasters with one-handed weapons is specifically banned by TT rules. Same with phoenix guard, by the way.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,604

    Green0 said:


    2-6 MA/MD buff would be a huge buff that would make them too good for every purpose while I (and probably others) think that they shouls be good vs armored large and average-to-bad vs infantry.

    Why should they only be good versus armoured large? Why should they be bad vs infantry? What is that assertion based on?

    And what's the point of that anyway? It's not temple guards can actually catch armoured large and it's not like they have the mass to prevent such from simply running away. Carnosaurs and horned ones handle armoured large better anyway, which means you're effectively arguing that temple guards should be borderline useless, does it not?
    Green0 said:

    - GW and sword and shield variant is a bit ridiculous, might as well make Chaos Warriors (Spears) and Swordmasters (Sword and Shield). Goodbye asymmetrical balance and fun and every faction becomes a reskin of the other.

    Well, yes and no. There should not be a sword and shield variant of temple guards, they should simply come with halberds and shields. But they should have more regular MA and less BvL. In part because they're not clumsy halberd troops but essentially swordsmen that uses halberds as their swords. In part because they don't get the number of attacks in TW that they would in TT to make up for their "low" weapon skill.

    And this would not break the asymmetric balance. Temple guards with 36 base MA and only 12 BvL would still get killed by swordmasters and chosen but they'd look a bit less pathetic versus most infantry. At 40-42 MD they'd still lag behind even regular chaos warriors but they'd feel a lot more like the elite warriors they're supposed to be.

    As for chaos warriors with spears, why bother when you already have CW halberds? It would not be lore-unfriendly, but it would be utterly pointless. And Swordsmasters with one-handed weapons is specifically banned by TT rules. Same with phoenix guard, by the way.
    Temple guard are already decent vs infantry. They have the lowest attack interval of the high end halberd units at 4 seconds, as compared to chosen 4.3 and phoenix guard+black guards 4.9. For reference, they actually have better attack speed than swordmasters of hoeth, Chosen GW's and Har Ganeth executioners. That makes their overall damage output much better than one would expect.

    The argument about dealing with large is pointless. There isn't a single halberd unit in the game who can catch large/lock them down permanently(Even the non-halberd+heavy armor slayers and wardancers struggle to catch large). They serve as an anchor and zoning tool for your big monsters. It's much the same function as the halberd units of other factions in fact.
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  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,725
    Fraxinus said:


    - Maybe even add a Great Weapon variant, with even higher attack and more AP damage but no shield and lower defense

    People were asking for saurus with great weapons for years because, obviously, they would be amazing.

    I don't think this should happen because, just like in the tabletop, once you have saurus with great weapons, you never need to bring Kroxigar again. Now I realize that this game's current version of kroxigar isn't great, but that just means they need some buffs.
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    edited September 2018
    I am always baffled by how people ask for buffs to a faction in the wrong way.

    People only want to win ez and create the new OP unit that is anti-everything. All starts with a “small stats increase of 2-6”, nothing to be afraid of even though translated means that the unit does 2-6% more damage than before every attack interval and receives 2-6% less. Might as well put 6% physical resist then. Oh wait that’s too strong! But MD works like phys. resist in melee.

    Problem when comparing with Swordmasters is that like I said SM are squishy, expensive and die easily to spells. They also have a much tighter formation which makes them more vulnerable to wind spells and it is harder to heal them than heal TG against FoB because generally you NEED to cast a Regrowth which is an expensive spell (while Liz heals are free). Also, Swordmasters are more vulnerable to cav charges and I don’t mean because TG can brace, it’s just that SM have much lower mass which vs cav is actually a pretty big deal but this number doesn’t show in the stats does it? It’s the same reason why Black Orcs are so good and work decently vs cavalry too. Finally, from a cost per HP perspective, compared to Temple Guards it’s mostly low HP that make SM a risky pick in MP.

    Are Lizardmen in a bad spot? Yes, not terribly so but they could use a mini rework. But their DLC hasn’t dropped yet and thei have several underpowered units. Remember HE before DLC? You could just bring cav and armored monsters and it was literally free win, nothing the HE player could do. Now with Sisters the situation improved a bit although armored fast units remain one of HE’s weaknesses.

    Anyway why not ask for a buff to Horned Ones, flying Skins or if you’re so paranoid about Lizardmen not being able to kill infantry, buffs to Kroxigors? Or a buff to Slann, maybe give him a lore that deals with armored infantry against which Lizardmen struggle (although not massively so because of high mass of dinos like I said).

    These are all UP units and buffing them would actually improve the game instead of creating an auto-win unit. We had so many of those units already btw. Greatswords in TWW1. Frontlines of Bestigors because they were so good they dealt with everything better, from chaff to armored, making any other BM infantry useless. Sisters of Slaughter brought as an anti-everything frontline. And now it baffles me that people want to create a unit that will be spammed to oblivion in MP. If you’re bothered by SP then change the values manually and give them whichever stats you prefer, but in MP, TG is already an effective pick in 2-3 matchups and a flavor pick in 4-5 more, which means they aren’t UP at all.
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  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Registered Users Posts: 1,063
    Wyvern2 said:

    Green0 said:


    2-6 MA/MD buff would be a huge buff that would make them too good for every purpose while I (and probably others) think that they shouls be good vs armored large and average-to-bad vs infantry.

    Why should they only be good versus armoured large? Why should they be bad vs infantry? What is that assertion based on?

    And what's the point of that anyway? It's not temple guards can actually catch armoured large and it's not like they have the mass to prevent such from simply running away. Carnosaurs and horned ones handle armoured large better anyway, which means you're effectively arguing that temple guards should be borderline useless, does it not?
    Green0 said:

    - GW and sword and shield variant is a bit ridiculous, might as well make Chaos Warriors (Spears) and Swordmasters (Sword and Shield). Goodbye asymmetrical balance and fun and every faction becomes a reskin of the other.

    Well, yes and no. There should not be a sword and shield variant of temple guards, they should simply come with halberds and shields. But they should have more regular MA and less BvL. In part because they're not clumsy halberd troops but essentially swordsmen that uses halberds as their swords. In part because they don't get the number of attacks in TW that they would in TT to make up for their "low" weapon skill.

    And this would not break the asymmetric balance. Temple guards with 36 base MA and only 12 BvL would still get killed by swordmasters and chosen but they'd look a bit less pathetic versus most infantry. At 40-42 MD they'd still lag behind even regular chaos warriors but they'd feel a lot more like the elite warriors they're supposed to be.

    As for chaos warriors with spears, why bother when you already have CW halberds? It would not be lore-unfriendly, but it would be utterly pointless. And Swordsmasters with one-handed weapons is specifically banned by TT rules. Same with phoenix guard, by the way.
    Temple guard are already decent vs infantry. They have the lowest attack interval of the high end halberd units at 4 seconds, as compared to chosen 4.3 and phoenix guard+black guards 4.9. For reference, they actually have better attack speed than swordmasters of hoeth, Chosen GW's and Har Ganeth executioners. That makes their overall damage output much better than one would expect.

    The argument about dealing with large is pointless. There isn't a single halberd unit in the game who can catch large/lock them down permanently(Even the non-halberd+heavy armor slayers and wardancers struggle to catch large). They serve as an anchor and zoning tool for your big monsters. It's much the same function as the halberd units of other factions in fact.
    Having an attack interval advantage of 0.1 or 0.3 seconds is nice but but I am not sure we can directly translate that into attacks per minute. I suspect that it is a timer between attack animations, which means the full time per attack is attack interval + time to play the animation. And the TG attack animations, while very cool, are not exactly fast.

    Anyway, I did some lord mod testing with the TG 1v1 against various other units, with TG as defenders, just to get some data on how they do versus infantry.

    Black Guard 3-0
    Sisters of slaughter 0-3
    Executioners 0-3
    Chaos Warriors (all kinds) 3-0
    Chosen (all kinds) 0-3
    Hammerers 0-3
    Ironbreakers 1-2 (Ironbreakers probably do better defending)
    Greatswords 3-0
    Bestigors 3-0
    Black Orcs 3-0
    Swordmasters 0-3 (very brutal)
    Phoenix Guards 0-3
    White Lions 3-0
    Marauder Champs 2-1
    Marauder Champs GW 3-0
    Stormvermins (all) 3-0

    All things considered, results were pretty decent. I'd still take a few points into MA / MD to do the TT version some kind of justice, and I don't like how they're getting butchered by the SoS, but losing to executioners, chosen, phoenix guards, and swordmasters is fair. Losing to hammerers and ironbreakers, meh.

    Of course this is barely even scratching the surface in terms of analysis but it's the best I could do on short notice while watching TV. :smiley:

    Oh, and the argument about dealing with large is anything but pointless. Arguing that a particular unit should only be good against something it can't be good against for mechanical reasons and that it should suck against everything else is the equivalent of saying that a unit should plain suck.

    You can argue that you can still use the unit to control space, but reducing thousand year old genetically engineered killing machines to just being traffic cones seems a bit harsh.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,725
    Green0 said:

    I am always baffled by how people ask for buffs to a faction in the wrong way.



    Anyway why not ask for a buff to Horned Ones, flying Skins or if you’re so paranoid about Lizardmen not being able to kill infantry, buffs to Kroxigors? Or a buff to Slann, maybe give him a lore that deals with armored infantry against which Lizardmen struggle (although not massively so because of high mass of dinos like I said).

    I have asked for all those things.
    Green0 said:



    If you’re bothered by SP then change the values manually and give them whichever stats you prefer, but in MP, TG is already an effective pick in 2-3 matchups and a flavor pick in 4-5 more, which means they aren’t UP at all.

    I'm not sure they are UP, but they sure don't feel special or particularly exciting to use.
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  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Registered Users Posts: 1,063
    Green0 said:

    I am always baffled by how people ask for buffs to a faction in the wrong way.

    People only want to win ez and create the new OP unit that is anti-everything. All starts with a “small stats increase of 2-6”, nothing to be afraid of even though translated means that the unit does 2-6% more damage than before every attack interval and receives 2-6% less. Might as well put 6% physical resist then. Oh wait that’s too strong! But MD works like phys. resist in melee.

    I'm sure people will take you more seriously when you're having a freaking hissy-fit. :smile:

    That aside, throwing a few points into TG won't make them the next OP unit that is anti-everything, and you're overrating MD rather ridiculously. It does nothing against ranged, TG don't have that much armour, and flank/rear attacks disregard a large amount of MD. Exhausted state gives another 10% reduction. And they're only at 38 currently. It's not like they're impossible to hit.

    I get what you're saying, mind you. It would suck if TG end up with too much value and buffing anything LZD is always tricky because of the interaction with rev crystals. But we're not talking about huge additions, and we're talking about a unit with no exceptional qualities other than leadership and the highest health per model for a size 75 unit.
    Green0 said:

    Anyway why not ask for a buff to Horned Ones, flying Skins or if you’re so paranoid about Lizardmen not being able to kill infantry, buffs to Kroxigors?

    Horned Ones are pretty decent already, though making rampage easier to manage would be nice. Flying skinks are toxic so making them stronger would probably not be good. Better kroxies, why not? They probably should be a little better. They're high end monstrous infantry, they should be at least a little scary.

    But that's sort of besides the point.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,236
    As far as lizardmen go, i think kroxigors, regular slann, regular terradons, amd horned ones need buffs. Temple guard are ok though.

    Improving vortexes would also indirectly help lizardmen.

    Even more so, fixing fiery convocation would do wonders. It would give lizardmen access to a wind spell which is something they currently lack.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245
    edited September 2018
    Lzm need buffs or dlc but TG are not the unit that is in need of them. Dont forget they immune to psyhology also, high ld units that are anti large and ItP are amazing its why black guard are so good.

    Stand Corrected i was wrong.
    Post edited by Lotus_Moon on
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,604
    They dont have immunity to psychology. They're tough to terror rout, but not invincible to it.
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  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116

    Lzm need buffs or dlc but TG are not the unit that is in need of them. Dont forget they immune to psyhology also, high ld units that are anti large and ItP are amazing its why black guard are so good.

    You are bad with non-elven stats.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245
    edited September 2018
    Totally stand corrected, in that case they should, i think that would be a good buff to them.
    Or even give them unbreakable if you have a slann within 50m of them. That would be a fun synergy.
    Post edited by Lotus_Moon on
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 408
    I could see giving TG the guardian trait. It would be an indirect buff to Slann (and other characters) and give them some themematic worth.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,502
    Guards need other utility and support. The stats by itself generally r quite alright.

    As the ultimate bodyguards in the warhammer universe. It would be both loreful and useful in game if they have a character support ability.

    Could be in a weak guardian, or a reverse “hold the line” buff to characters only etc.

    And that immune to psy, just how r they not having it
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  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,166
    yst said:


    Could be in a weak guardian, or a reverse “hold the line” buff to characters only etc.

    No. Faction that can go with Kroq and Scar Veteran+caster on big dinno do not need "weak guardian".
  • TellTale_ScarTellTale_Scar Registered Users Posts: 411
    I do not believe Temple Guard are in need of buffs. They are very stalwart, and often die to the last lizard. They are not overly offensive in nature, except when taking on large units. Their large health pools, good armor, and dependable stats help them grind it out against infantry. The lizardmen have plenty of hammers to capitalize on such an excellent anvil (and even more once the DLC finally comes around).

    They have really good mass (as do all Saurus), which enables them to react much faster to a charge of cavalry or monsters by dishing the damage right on back.

    I understand many wishing them to be the prime killers they were in tabletop, but I don't think the roster as it is now needs an infantry blender unit. The roster features a lot of large size units that forms the killing power of the army (not just the monsters). I think Lizardmen cavalry and Kroxigors could use a bit of love to promote other styles of play rather than monster mash.

    Again, the DLC will greatly help in diversifying the Lizardmen's play book.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,725
    tank3487 said:

    yst said:


    Could be in a weak guardian, or a reverse “hold the line” buff to characters only etc.

    No. Faction that can go with Kroq and Scar Veteran+caster on big dinno do not need "weak guardian".
    Unmounted Slann could sure use it, which is what Temple Guard are designed to protect.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,502
    tank3487 said:

    yst said:


    Could be in a weak guardian, or a reverse “hold the line” buff to characters only etc.

    No. Faction that can go with Kroq and Scar Veteran+caster on big dinno do not need "weak guardian".
    Ill be extremely surprised if liz dont have guardian. Very common trait, nearly everyone has it, obviously all 3 elf have it, tombs, brets, chaos, beastman.

    Better off listing those who doesnt have it lol, empire, then they have luminark, orc, vamps and nosca.

    14 factions only 4 doesnt have it. Skaven excluded, likely get it on ror.

    Ill be super surprised if theres temple guard ror without guardian.
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  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467
    Fraxinus said:

    One of the few problems I have with the current Lizardmen roster is that Temple Guard feel very underwhelming for a high-tier unit. Saurus Warriors are amazing for a low-to-mid tier unit, but I often find myself passing up Temple Guard entirely and just keeping my Saurus Warriors / Spears into the late game.

    Let's compare their stats.

    Saurus Spears with shields cost 200 upkeep. Temple Guard cost a whopping 300 upkeep, a solid 50% increase. This buys you:
    - 3 points of health
    - 15 leadership
    - 8 melee attack
    - 4 melee defence
    - 4 charge bonus
    - damage swapped to armor-piercing (they do roughly the same damage, Temple Guard just get more of it as AP)
    - slightly higher armor

    The leadership isn't a big deal since Saurus already barely ever break. The 8 melee attack is a welcome addition. Everything else kinda feels like peanuts, and not worth the massive price jump.

    Let's put this into context by comparing the Temple Guard to another high-tier melee unit - Swordmasters.

    Swordmasters cost 325 upkeep, only 25 more than temple guard. They have:
    - 25 less health
    - 15 less leadership
    - 14(!!) higher melee attack
    - 6 higher charge bonus
    - 4 less AP damage
    - 14 Bonus v. Infantry

    That 14 bonus v. Infantry is especially insane, since in a fight with Temple Guard it would raise their melee attack advantage to 28, and (assuming the bonus damage is not AP) let them eke out a ~3 damage advantage on successful hits. And then on top of all this, at the start of the fight the Swordmasters of Hoeth get Martial Prowess, for another +2 Melee Attack and +12 melee defence.

    So taking into account martial prowess and their bonus vs. Infantry, you've got the Swordmasters chilling at 62 melee attack and 50 melee defence, which is absolutely absurd when compared to the Temple Guard's 32 melee attack and 38 melee defence. They're not even in the same class of unit at that point.

    High Elves, the supposedly "all-rounder" faction with great ranged power and versatility, have a high-tier melee unit that would win in an infantry duel against the high-tier infantry of the Lizardmen, a faction with only three strengths: heavy infantry, monsters, and magic. Does this seem wrong to anyone else?

    I think Temple Guard need higher melee attack and defense at the very least. Maybe also more health. What do you all think?

    YES FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE THAN ME THAT ADVOCATE FOR A BUFF TO MY FRIENDLY DEADLY TENPLE GUARDS ! AFTER 3 POST ABOUT THIS SOMEONE ELSE YHAN ME CREATED ONE YEAHHH


  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467
    Im gonna write something I wrote In my other threads about this.

    Temple Guards jf you look at them alone seem solid, but they simply dont Work well in the LM roster, LM as everyone states are Incredibly powerfull monster wise, they dominate the field when it comes to monster, with extremely fast and deadly Carnosaurs heroes and unit, they will win most of the Monster battles, when will you be stressed about enemy monsters in a LM game ?

    Pretty much never Temple Guards are There to Fight big Heavy monsters... but you never need that Function in game since other faster units take care of it. Lizardmen have enough Anti-large to dominate the field.

    Now sadly, LM infantry is at the moment dominated by Saurus warriors, since you have more units and They dish out a lot of damage and hold for long for their price, Temple Guards have no place as a frontline unit since they need to fight Monsters or they wont be cost effective. But even in a battle where there is monsters, they are so easy to avoid and they rarely get their pawns on a Monster for more than a couple of seconds, but sadly since they have low MA for a halberd and a BbL of 16 compared to any other high tier halberds that have 24. This is a substancial difference, its 8 more MA and 8 more damage they fighting monsters making Halberds like BG and PG much much more effevtive in a short timeframe.

    Temple Guards do have more health and a 35% missile block chance wich is nice, but is not so significant when BG have substancially more Armor, and Phoenix guards have more armor and a physical resistance of 20%. Plus all those benefits also applies in melee while Saurus bonus is only facing range.

    In theory the shield is quite nice, but With the lizardmen, the enemy armu will 90% of the time focus Your dinos with his missiles, so they rarely focus their shots on TG, making their shield uselsss in most games.

    Their lower armor is incredibly bad for them. They are more vulnerable to enemy lower tier infantry than other halberds, making it extremely easy to tarpit them with lower tier units while bejng extremely cost effective, their low MA, attack speed and weak WS for the price makes it so thag they cannot cut through fodder fast.

    A halberd value is place uppon its factor of being able to hold their own against infantry for then be able to target Monsters when the opportunity to fight a monster present itself. PG, BG are extremely effective against Infantry and dont have the same weakness against low tier infantry as TG. Halberds will inevitably fight Infantry most of the game since there is more infantry in every army than large. And Generally when it gets to the stage where Large dont have a choice to charge TG, they get terrorised... or dont have enough health to fight back.

    What I propose to Fix this problem is to lower TG MD by 2

    Higher MD by 4

    Switch 10 Bonus vs Large for 4 more AP damage, and 2 normal damage

    Lower HP by 400

    Higher armor by 10

    This would put them in a spot like Orc Big uns, effevtive against infantry units to a good level, and a bit of a speciallity against Large.

    Those stats can be tweaked for sure, but this would be a very interesting change and it would make that TG actually have a place in the LM roster.


  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467
    Btw to anyone saying That LMs weakness is elite infantry, its a Dumb assumption. Atm its a Default weakness since their only elite infantry is weak... LM on Table top had extremly good infantry, TG were comparable to Chosens and were probably the only infantry that could beat them. They were a solid piece of infantry.

    LM true weakness is extremely poor Missiles( they got decent skirmisher, but with short range) and artiellry( only the Lazerdon is decent, but its not AP. Plus They have extremely weak Cavalry, wich are 2 of the most crucial and pivotal point of any army.

    They have Strong Monsters and Magic atm, their infantry should be good too, since Monsters are generally easy to counter and magic is extremely situational.

    There is no single reason while LM elites should be Weak.

    In comparison

    HE weakness, No Fodder units and weak low to mid tier infantry and low HP pools for their units

    HE strenght, Powerfull top tier infantry; Strong and cost effective missiles, Powerfull flying creature, strong Magic.

    Skavens weakness, low stats for units, low leadership and weak Elites, lack of cav

    Skaven Strenght, Lots of cheap infantry, powerfull specialised infantry. Numerous army, Strong Magic and summons. Good mid tier infantry, good skidmishers and Extremely powerfull artillery.

    See where Im going, saying That a faction strenght is one single thing and saying other parts of the army should be weak because of assymetrical gameplay is dumb, there is so much difference between each factions thatmaking LM infantry will not make every faction play the same, all the faction have so much different strenght and weakness.

    Well thats its, TG needs a rework


  • BlissBliss Registered Users Posts: 579
    edited September 2018
    Sorry, but to me, you can't say that TG won't be cost effective vs Infantry while they trade tooth for tooth vs Black Orcs, for only 50g more. So, TG will perform pretty much as BO do in a front line, except that Monsters/Cavalry won't be effective vs them, unlike BO. Having AL Bonus doesn't always mean "suck vs infantry". Some units trade some MA to AL or AI Bonus. TG trade some armor for it.

    And, I can see a good use of their AL bonus, besides making your frontline much stronger vs large units : when you face someone with a lot of AL Cavalry / Monsters, you can send your dinos in your own TG to protect them.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,604
    You just typed out two huge posts to not really say why TG actually need to be buffed.
    1)On the monster topic, you need your temple guard to shield your monsters from enemy anti-large both in foot format and large format. Saurus spears and saurus warriors are not an adequate deterrent against top tier enemy antilarge monsters(like necrosphinx, shaggoth, terrorgheists or even dragons) or heavy cav, and they will buckle incredibly quickly to high end infantry. Temple guard are in fact a decent dual purpose unit for anchoring your monsters around.
    2)Temple guard attacks quite a bit faster than other halberd units, which should compensate, at least in part, for their inferior melee stats. Also, the only two halberd units with 24+ BvL are Black Guard and Chosen Halberds, so TG are in a pretty solid spot.
    3)Extra hp makes all the difference in the world. It's literally the only defensive stat in the game that has 0 counters outside of just grinding through it. Both Black Guard and Phoenix Guard are more expensive and have paltry hp pools in comparison. The shield can also be a great boon if your opponent has a lot of shooting. Black Guard and Phoenix Guard are far easier to melt with mortis engine effects, spells, shooting and even cavalry due to their piteous hp pool. Raw HP is actually one of the reasons chosen halberds are also such a stellar unit for holding where the two elf elites start struggling and buckling as a game progresses.
    4)I find it amusing that you compare them to other halberds based on their performance vs infantry, when black guard does worse vs most infantry and actually loses to temple guard in a straight up fight based on the testing above.

    In short, your claims are easily debunked, which raises a question of why TG needs any buff at all. They perform their job of bodyguard/escort for big units and perform more than adequately vs enemy infantry, especially when bunkered down in a defensive formation(you dont take TG to go wide and try to overrun your opponent with them). This is also ignoring the stellar synergy they have with kroxigors, but that's a whole different situation.

    As for your second post.

    Lizardmen are not an elite infantry faction, but their weakness is not elite infantry in general, it is elite halberds specifically, even more specifically elite halberds backed by monsters/high mass units that prevent your own big boys from running amok and cycle charging them to death. In short, the only faction that reliably meets those requisites is chaos.

    As for how they play out in game, they have passable skirmishers, artillery is an issue and shooting in general is their weakness, but their cav is actually very solid, just overshadowed by big dinos most of the time(both cold ones and horned ones are stellar units in their own right) and their infantry is decidedly mid tier. There's no need to have a whole in depth discussion of other factions. Dinos have their own strengths and weaknesses, and TG are not a problem unit.

    Real fails are units like terradons or vanilla skink skirmishers.
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  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467
    Wyvern2 said:

    You just typed out two huge posts to not really say why TG actually need to be buffed.
    1)On the monster topic, you need your temple guard to shield your monsters from enemy anti-large both in foot format and large format. Saurus spears and saurus warriors are not an adequate deterrent against top tier enemy antilarge monsters(like necrosphinx, shaggoth, terrorgheists or even dragons) or heavy cav, and they will buckle incredibly quickly to high end infantry. Temple guard are in fact a decent dual purpose unit for anchoring your monsters around.
    2)Temple guard attacks quite a bit faster than other halberd units, which should compensate, at least in part, for their inferior melee stats. Also, the only two halberd units with 24+ BvL are Black Guard and Chosen Halberds, so TG are in a pretty solid spot.
    3)Extra hp makes all the difference in the world. It's literally the only defensive stat in the game that has 0 counters outside of just grinding through it. Both Black Guard and Phoenix Guard are more expensive and have paltry hp pools in comparison. The shield can also be a great boon if your opponent has a lot of shooting. Black Guard and Phoenix Guard are far easier to melt with mortis engine effects, spells, shooting and even cavalry due to their piteous hp pool. Raw HP is actually one of the reasons chosen halberds are also such a stellar unit for holding where the two elf elites start struggling and buckling as a game progresses.
    4)I find it amusing that you compare them to other halberds based on their performance vs infantry, when black guard does worse vs most infantry and actually loses to temple guard in a straight up fight based on the testing above.

    In short, your claims are easily debunked, which raises a question of why TG needs any buff at all. They perform their job of bodyguard/escort for big units and perform more than adequately vs enemy infantry, especially when bunkered down in a defensive formation(you dont take TG to go wide and try to overrun your opponent with them). This is also ignoring the stellar synergy they have with kroxigors, but that's a whole different situation.

    As for your second post.

    Lizardmen are not an elite infantry faction, but their weakness is not elite infantry in general, it is elite halberds specifically, even more specifically elite halberds backed by monsters/high mass units that prevent your own big boys from running amok and cycle charging them to death. In short, the only faction that reliably meets those requisites is chaos.

    As for how they play out in game, they have passable skirmishers, artillery is an issue and shooting in general is their weakness, but their cav is actually very solid, just overshadowed by big dinos most of the time(both cold ones and horned ones are stellar units in their own right) and their infantry is decidedly mid tier. There's no need to have a whole in depth discussion of other factions. Dinos have their own strengths and weaknesses, and TG are not a problem unit.

    Real fails are units like terradons or vanilla skink skirmishers.

    Your quite funny, all your terms work barely in Theory, but stand a ground, but In practice its a whole other story, Play LM for over 500 games trying out each strategies and youll see for yourself kid, ive been a top tier MP player for a long time, been in top 50 easily and played multiple tournaments. LM dinos are agressive, LM having no missiles needs to generally rush the enemy. Making so that screening your dinos behind enemy lines with TG is impossible, if you play a purely defensive LM army with artillery and sort, 1 TG can be usefull a bit. But thats not how you play LM at a higher level. Temple Guards do Beat Black orcs in 1on 1 no abilities, BUT, because of their low damsge ouput they take a troumendous amount of time to do so, never will you ever see the opportnity for your TG to fight a 1 on 1 for sooo long. Plus Its sure there will be Whaaagh. The main problem with TG is their Killing speed. Their damage output is laughable for a 1200 gold unit, Units that Hold the line well like Ironbreakers are used in a missile heavy faction, since missiles is usefull only if it can spend its ammo. The role you described is the role of a traditional Halberd. But in the LM roster itself it doesnt have its place.

    TG is the only elite infantry of the LM, and you Never see them in competitive. They sjmply dont have a rôle, LM monsters if your good enough will beat any monsters of other factions.

    Lm playstyle at the moment is stuck in the same pattern with barely any army diversity its only monster mash. Wich is good, but having other viable options is really important for the fun of a faction.

    LM would be much better off with the changes I proposed, TG would see more use, so more army diversity and the possinilith to play something other than lots of dino and saurus spam.

    The LM roster is one dimensional.

    TG will fight for a while, I give you that, but any unit that cannot get rid of a lower tier enemy unit fast enough will be overwhelmed and anihilated, wich is when HP will be completely useless. If you TG are stuck for a while in a group of Plague monks, they cannot kill them fast enoigh before reinforcement come. Elite units are much more fragile than you seem to think, a huge HP pool can be drained extremely quickly. The only reason some elite are usefull is because they kill enemy fast and can then move to other targets.

    TG doesnt have this ability.

    Plus you said that to protect your monsters saurus spears are not enough ? Wait what? A Monster + Mid tier infantry will beat any other monster. The enemy wont fight a battle in any speat troops. And keeping a 1200 gold unit in your back is a ridiculous loss of gold.

    TG role of escort/ body guard in the LM roster is not worth nor good because of the way they work, what I propose is to make TG more diverse and not stuck to a simple useless playstyle.

    And sorey did you say LM cav is Strong ? ****... ok

    Oh and also, the bodyguard role is already assumed by the anti-large cav since it can manoruver around with your own dinos and tarpit enemy monsters. But against anyhting else, they are completely ****...


  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467
    Oh and btw when you say TG role is to shield from Infantry Anti-large, well, saurus warriors are so much more cosg effective at fighting infantry, while use your own Anti-large to shield from infantry ?


  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467
    Overall their role in the LM roster is limited to a very situational and not really usefull place, making LM armies feel redundant, changing their purpose by slightly changing their stats would make them more versatile and generally usefull as the only High tier LM infantry. Why dont you want a unit to see more play ?

    Btw in my previous posts I did, I made tons of analysis to prouve my point, go check them out if you want, dont have time to waste on writing all thag here


  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,725
    No need to take offence Kranox, people are allowed to have opinions even if they have much less experience than yourself.

    I think you type up a lot of great points about how the use of a slow anti-large armor piercing unit in the lizardmen roster doesn't see much use.

    After the nerf of grave guard, there was no real reason to take them for a really long time because crypt horrors existed and were just cheaper (this is back in WH1).
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  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467
    Kayosiv said:

    No need to take offence Kranox, people are allowed to have opinions even if they have much less experience than yourself.

    I think you type up a lot of great points about how the use of a slow anti-large armor piercing unit in the lizardmen roster doesn't see much use.

    After the nerf of grave guard, there was no real reason to take them for a really long time because crypt horrors existed and were just cheaper (this is back in WH1).

    Haha yeah sorry m8, just got offended a bit... you know **** happens after a rough day at work XD, Ive been like 95% positive on this forum, something I kind of lighly explode


  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,502
    edited September 2018
    Slight adjustment is enough tbh, immune to psy for sure maybe a bit on the stats or wep str.

    Not too much room to work on given their price and being a halberd.

    They should be a bit more than just upgraded saurus.
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  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,467
    yst said:

    Slight adjustment is enough tbh, immune to psy for sure maybe a bit on the stats or wep str.

    Not too much room to work on given their price and being a halberd.

    They should be a bit more than just upgraded saurus.

    That could be a good possibility too


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