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Fair Bretonnia, potential improvements

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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,502
    edited September 2018

    The blessed treb I see quite a lot, people pick it for the magic damage vs PG.

    Ppl tested the dif between the 2 yet?
    Post edited by yst on
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  • Elder_BasiliskElder_Basilisk Registered Users Posts: 407
    Green0 said:



    This 100 percent.

    one word: cavalry. Late-game cavalry holds immeasurable value, vanguard Gor Herds or Skink skirmishers with depleted ammo do not.
    I don't think anyone would argue that cav isn't good. However I don't see why that means it's broken for Brettonia to have multiple viable strategies when it is just fine for every other faction to have multiple viable strategies. Almost all the other matchups force people to counter multiple possible build styles. I don't see why Brettonia needs to be the special case where that is broken. Except against high elves who have the misfortune to have their only viable heavy cav hard countered by Grail knights, Brettonian cavalry is not more unstoppable than empire cav, vampire cav, or chaos cav (including monstrous cav).
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,753
    edited September 2018
    And its not like High elves and Empire don't have amazing Cav plus multiple strategies

    HE DP and FB are good
    and Ellyrian Reaver Archers are like the best late game cav., used well, they will be out of ammo, still good health with the martial prowess, Its the best skirmishing cav and remains useful even without ammo

    Demi are amazing in late game with that fear and terror can change the tide of battle of the final scraps against scraps, and great AP against large monsters

    Grail knights does have perfect vigour, but that i dont see how it is SOOO much better that bretonnia can't have another viable strategy
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,753
    yst said:

    The blessed treb I see quite a lot, people pick it for the magic damage vs PG.

    Ppl tested the dif between the 2 yet?
    i havent tested it but i prefer normal trebs
    I dont see much reason to take blessed

    the AP damage of normal treb is good enough to kill phoenix guards or most units in one shot anyways...
    And normal trebs has better splash AP damage......
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245

    And its not like High elves and Empire don't have amazing Cav plus multiple strategies

    HE DP and FB are good
    and Ellyrian Reaver Archers are like the best late game cav., used well, they will be out of ammo, still good health with the martial prowess, Its the best skirmishing cav and remains useful even without ammo

    Demi are amazing in late game with that fear and terror can change the tide of battle of the final scraps against scraps, and great AP against large monsters

    Grail knights does have perfect vigour, but that i dont see how it is SOOO much better that bretonnia can't have another viable strategy

    Many factions should have a range of viable strategies, but those viable strategies should be balanced. Just because bret is a cav focused faction it should not be a reason to have super OP cav.

    Look at knights of the realm they are amazing for their cost, compare them to silver helms of empire knights and its ridiculous now on top of this they get lance formation, how is this fair? now i think knights of the realm are well made for the bret roster so i'm not saying they OP or anything but when you have such a strong unit yet they almost never see play due to grails than that is something of a concern. Perfect vigour is plain OP. and lance is just too good now.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,502

    yst said:

    The blessed treb I see quite a lot, people pick it for the magic damage vs PG.

    Ppl tested the dif between the 2 yet?
    i havent tested it but i prefer normal trebs
    I dont see much reason to take blessed

    the AP damage of normal treb is good enough to kill phoenix guards or most units in one shot anyways...
    And normal trebs has better splash AP damage......
    Pretty much that really. THe magic dmg is absolutely pointless on a treb. ANything that gets hit by it dies so who cares about phy resist or not. Not like u can hit a dragon or monster with such pathetic accuracy.

    Extra $200 for something thats worse than the $700, great design tbh
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  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,753
    I actually use knights of the realm and Defenders of Fleur De Lys a lot, accompanying 1-2 Grail knights category
    Yes GK and GG are good, but i dont think they have completely made the other cavs in bretonnia roster useless. I watched other youtubers and tourneys, and all knights have a spot and use.

    i've rather moved away from using GG as often and used more questing and companions.

    Lance formation should lose the acceleration/decelleration buff. But i wouldnt overnerf it. Normal formation still has a lot of advantages over lance formation

    Perfect vigour isnt op. Is powerful all right, and it is bretonnia's advantage over other factions' which has their own advantages, free heal/summons, muderous crap, way better front line, skirmishers, artillery and so on.

    And nevertheless, buffing the air cav is going to compete for GK and GG's spot since they cost around the same, and does somewhat similar role. You are not going to see a line up of 3 GK like now + 3 RPK as meta. Is mostly likely going to be a mix; for example, 2 RPK+ 1 GK

    honestly, i find you and greenO being overdramatic that bretonnia with air cav is going to destroy everyone.... They are still going to have to land and fight, still weak to the same weapon you bring against bretonnia cav. Is not a radical departure of Bretonnia original strategies. And other factions will still have more viable strategies than bretonnia.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,502
    edited September 2018
    ^ meh those lance and perfect vigour r just utter garbage that overinflate the costs of grails.

    Gladly lose vigour and lance formation for -$300 which pretty much seems to be the consensus of elven fanbois, complaining about utter nonsense lol. Funny how they talk about lance all the time, something that no vet bret players ever use, only a fool would prefer to do less dmg.

    Grails should definitely lose lance and vigour for -$300 afterall they r godmode with it
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245
    edited September 2018
    yst said:

    ^ meh those lance and perfect vigour r just utter garbage that overinflate the costs of grails.

    Gladly lose vigour and lance formation for -$300 which pretty much seems to be the consensus of elven fanbois, complaining about utter nonsense lol. Funny how they talk about lance all the time, something that no vet bret players ever use, only a fool would prefer to do less dmg.

    Thing is without lance and vigour grail knight stats are still appropriate for their cost. Without those 2 they still be best cav in the game, just those 2 make them broken. People totally underestimate perfect vigour, the leadership from it is amazing mid game onward its like having +12 (or is it 8?) ld due to not suffering exhaustion plus on top the stats and speed they keep, its easily an ability worth about 150 on its own.
    Post edited by Lotus_Moon on
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245
    edited September 2018
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,583
    edited September 2018

    And its not like High elves and Empire don't have amazing Cav plus multiple strategies

    HE DP and FB are good
    and Ellyrian Reaver Archers are like the best late game cav., used well, they will be out of ammo, still good health with the martial prowess, Its the best skirmishing cav and remains useful even without ammo

    Demi are amazing in late game with that fear and terror can change the tide of battle of the final scraps against scraps, and great AP against large monsters

    Grail knights does have perfect vigour, but that i dont see how it is SOOO much better that bretonnia can't have another viable strategy

    Many factions should have a range of viable strategies, but those viable strategies should be balanced. Just because bret is a cav focused faction it should not be a reason to have super OP cav.

    Look at knights of the realm they are amazing for their cost, compare them to silver helms of empire knights and its ridiculous now on top of this they get lance formation, how is this fair? now i think knights of the realm are well made for the bret roster so i'm not saying they OP or anything but when you have such a strong unit yet they almost never see play due to grails than that is something of a concern. Perfect vigour is plain OP. and lance is just too good now.
    Sure give us AP ranged then, becasue empire has it He too. Then nerf the cav.

  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,604
    Id rather see GK go up in price than see them nerfed. If they lose perfect vigour id say they need a significant cost drop, since that's one of their huge selling points and defining features.
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,583
    edited September 2018
    Elven witch hunting on Bretonnia mode on.

    GKs are not broken, they are very strong for their cost like WW, who are also broken for their price, and would not be acceptable in non We roster. They maybe in deed the best cav for their cost, which is good so, becasue they should be, they are freaking GKs together with blood knights the best warriors in the old world.

    I think this is He problem that their DP and PG get countered by magic dmg, maybe something could be done to shift some of the power from PR into Hp or other stats to help them in this MU.



  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245
    Wyvern2 said:

    Id rather see GK go up in price than see them nerfed. If they lose perfect vigour id say they need a significant cost drop, since that's one of their huge selling points and defining features.

    They didn't have it in game 1, but i agree it needs to stay on them now. I just find them way too good for their cost when vigor loss comes into play. They great already compared to other cav but the longer the game goes the bigger their difference becomes. But you cant go cost up mid game....so it has to be at start so +50 gold seems appropriate which than would allow for buffs to brets in other areas.
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 512
    edited September 2018
    People moaned about nerfing Mortis Engine and how VC would no longer be viable. They are now one of the best factions in the game.

    Nerfing Grail Knights would allow other units to get a buff so I'm all for it.

    As mentioned previously in this thread Perfect vigor is very, very good on a elite cav unit in a faction with access to lore of life. Removing/nerfing this single ability would make them a lot more balanced. If this change is not enough then one could have a look on lance formation.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245
    The only thing i want done with lance is get rid of the charge speed and acceleration speed bonus. KEEP the extra charge bonus and keep the penetration.

    I will do some tests with grails vs fresh and exhausted units to show how much of a difference it makes plus don't forget the LD penalty for being exhausted not applying to grails.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    It's no witchhunt, it's just that these are two of the most broken matchups in the game currently. All broken matchups need to be discussed and that necessarily includes units on both sides...

    GKs are very cost efficient. If you compare to DPs, they both have somewhat comparable stats in cav vs cav. What sets them apart is that GKs after the buff has more MA, WS and significantly better AP-ratio (40% vs 27%) with the BvL. Then we have MP & PR on the one side and perfect vigor & lance formation on the other. There's a little bit give and take, but the really big difference is the AP. I think that makes GK a little more worth 1500 than DPs are 1450, but it's not absurdly different... it's within reason.

    The real problem is the magic/PR mismatch that almost makes GKs beat fireborn @ 1900. Not quite while fresh, but they trade rather even and would most likely win later in the battle when fatigue kicks in. Meanwhile GKs dumpster DPs.

    Moving some PR into HP would mitigate some of that, but it would also be an overall nerf due to resistance stacking being part of their performance now. Over all I think that's a direction to take though, the HE vs Bret matchup can never become balanced as long as GKs dumpster DPs. I don't think SoA will ever be a really viable tactic because of lance formation plus the fact that SoA don't have 360 move and shoot so they will never be enough online to counter cav efficiently. It's hard enough with WW that deal more damage and move and shoot. That doesn't leave much unfortunately.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,604
    edited September 2018
    I dont disagree with lance nerfs, I think those are needed. As far as removing immunity to vigour, I think it would be a horrible idea.

    Without immunity to vigour grails are quite frankly not very good. Compare their other stats to Blood Knights, DP's or Chaos Knights, and if they didn't have immunity to vigour grails would just be pretty garbage. I wouldn't even consider them a 1400 pt unit without it, probably closer to 1350 or something. I can see increasing price a tiny bit+nerfing lance formation to prevent the ridiculous ability to lay waste to backlines, but that's just about it. Brettonia doesnt need to see GK's nerfed a whole bunch just to have a reason to buff borderline worthless units like blessed trebs or PK's/RPK's

    On the topic of HE vs brets though, what if Allarielle was given a mapwide 10-15% magic resistance with shieldstone of isha in the same vein as the runelord, instead of the 12% physical resist. It would make her less annoying to deal with for factions that rely on physical damage and have few/no counters to PR, and at the same time help equalize the MU of brets vs HE.
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  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 512
    ^ New meta would be Alarielle blob with Loremaster + item for some nice magic resist stacking!
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,245

    I actually use knights of the realm and Defenders of Fleur De Lys a lot, accompanying 1-2 Grail knights category
    Yes GK and GG are good, but i dont think they have completely made the other cavs in bretonnia roster useless. I watched other youtubers and tourneys, and all knights have a spot and use.

    i've rather moved away from using GG as often and used more questing and companions.

    Lance formation should lose the acceleration/decelleration buff. But i wouldnt overnerf it. Normal formation still has a lot of advantages over lance formation

    Perfect vigour isnt op. Is powerful all right, and it is bretonnia's advantage over other factions' which has their own advantages, free heal/summons, muderous crap, way better front line, skirmishers, artillery and so on.

    And nevertheless, buffing the air cav is going to compete for GK and GG's spot since they cost around the same, and does somewhat similar role. You are not going to see a line up of 3 GK like now + 3 RPK as meta. Is mostly likely going to be a mix; for example, 2 RPK+ 1 GK

    honestly, i find you and greenO being overdramatic that bretonnia with air cav is going to destroy everyone.... They are still going to have to land and fight, still weak to the same weapon you bring against bretonnia cav. Is not a radical departure of Bretonnia original strategies. And other factions will still have more viable strategies than bretonnia.

    What you mean? Im not at allagainst buffs to bret air and i agreed with most of the ones you suggested and gave ideas myself how to buff bret air. You need to take some time and read my posts. I agree with you on on fey, bret air and it seems you agree on lance.

    Only thing we seem do diffet on is perfect vigour but the way you described other factions you missed the point that bret already has lance compared to other factions and more cost effective cav.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,604
    Well, the loremasters cloak could be given a nerf+cost decrease, drop it down to like 10-15% effect itself, allowing for a max stacked effect of like 25% between the two(basically comparable to having a unit camping next to a loremaster currently). Hell, loremaster needs some sort of looking at anyway as far as his stats are concerned.Even then, it's not like the loremaster can be everywhere at once, so the only situation where it would be exceptionally effective would be if you go with a mass of phoenix guard.

    Regardless, one of the core complaints about the GK is the HE matchup, so trying to give HE some more options in this specific instance seems more reasonable than nerfing the hell out of GK. In every other MU, they are generally far more manageable due to other factions not relying as much on physical resist+having proper counters to carry them.

    The WE matchup is a whole nother bundle of bricks, where im not even sure nerfing lance would help. WE are just really bad vs heavy cav, and bret cav is the perfect mix of heavy+cheap+quick with cheap support tools, so you can bring a few grails but mostly just stomp them with kotr's and have a bunch of men at arms+peasant bows supporting. Im not really sure what to say for it though.
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,583
    Yes WE have own problems against heavy cav, and no amount of nerfs will compensate it: Back in the days, when Brets were just absolute trash, tehy still had good chances vs WE.

    That is WE problem in dealing with heavy cav not BNrets being broken.

    But still i'm a bit tired of this topic being transformed into, HE vs Bret MU.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    It's nothing strange, if you ask for buffs for VC people will have concerns about VC vs WoC, if you ask for buffs for DWF people will have concerns about DWF vs EMP and SKV etc.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 609
    well, gonna repeat some stuff ... Please don't just ask for lance acceleration nerf without carefully considering all aspects. No one explains:

    -HOW nerfing the lance would affect other balanced match-ups,
    -WHY non-kiting builds like a treekin-speardancer combo doesn't work at high level vs brets,
    -HOW forest affects the bret-WE match-up
    -WHY it's only a bret issue instead of adding massive magic resistance (or damage) abilities to the elves.

    I don't have the answers but people should take more time to explain, the way it's going -just nerf lance- is frustrating :smile:

    about the lance acceleration:

    1. Disengaging: Allowing for super fast disengagement once in static melee is understandably unjustified, it would be fitting that the lance is punished if stopped and enveloped. (but maybe acceleration nerf could be applied to all heavy cav)

    2. pulling through a thin line, however, building on momentum like a chariot, is exactly its role, it gives all its flavor to the faction, so people should explain either why exactly it is a problem (instead of assuming it is just because other cav don't do chariot stuff). Or, if it's not a problem, how to keep the same forward utility while nerfing backwards disengagement.

    e.g: increase the charge range and penetration if acceleration bonus is removed.

    3. impact damage: Acceleration and speed, if I'm not wrong, contribute to the overall damage through greater impact. Removing these bonuses will nerf damage too, that is already lower than standard formation. Again, if the problem is too easy ping-ponging and not the damage, charge bonus should be buffed accordingly.

    additional thoughts:

    - Replacing phys resist. with ward save for PG instead of hp would keep them easier to heal, while sticking to the lore.

    - I don't see the hurt in giving PG more mass. I also wonder if MD shouldn't increase charge resistance like ranks do, it would allow high elf infantry to stick to the ground a bit more, but that's a much larger overhaul than these specific match-ups...

    - another larger overhaul that would help WE is to debuff the speed of all large units in forests; & the current impact of forests on the WE-bret match-up should be more thoroughly discussed.


  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,583
    That's the issue thou we are discussing changes to elves in a Bretonnian thread.

    We are forced to discuss Brets from only HE/WE point of view, which is a bit of manipulation if you'd ask me.

    This faction is mostly fine and has even more tough MU then easy ones, yet 75% of this discussion is about HE.

    I do think that HE just need some tweaks to respond to GKs better, but i get that weird impression, that DP (in eyes of He players) should beat GKs or at least trade very cost efficiently, and i would say why not but don't forget to give Brets other tools they are lacking like AP archers or good artillery if you wnat to nerf their cav to the point, where they will not really stand out.

    Empire has great cav and AP ranged, and great art, more magic options etc.
    HE great skirmishers, decent inf, gerat artillery, best air, and magic.

    Nerf brets cav? Sure but give us options other races have for it. Lore of light, better skirmishers and arti etc.



  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    What would be worse would be to balance things in isolation, not taking matchups into considerations. Brets two strongest matchups are WE and HE, so naturally when you ask to make these stronger for Bret, these factions will raise concerns. Anything else would be really strange.

    I am not saying nerf GK, I am just pointing out where the problem lies. If that requires changes in the HE or Bret roster I don't know, it's not obvious. Bret don't need nerfs, but at the same time HE don't really need buffs, so what to change? If we buff DPs, perhaps they become too good vs BKs, and HE do not need help vs VC.

    Therefore we need to first identify problems, then come up with clever suggestions that does not make the over all balance worse than it is now....

    GKs and DPs cost nearly the same so I think GKs should still win but they by as much as now. This creates downstream problems because if you can't contest the cav, then the only thing you can do is to box up and hope that spears and magic/PR impaired PGs will hold. That is countered by archers and trebs, which people want buffed. Also the bret infantry can deal rather well with spears, which is the only truly cost efficient unit vs cav. Even if they are super good now (though I think the archers are for the cost), they are good enough to punish the only option HE has. This makes the matchup rather one-sided and extremely boring to play.

    I think there is not 1 single change that will fix this alone, but several in conjunction are needed. I think there is room to nerf GKs a little, but only if Bret gets other tools to deal with monsters. If you buff Paladins, flying cav, Alby, then GK could be toned down a notch. RHK for example could surround monsters, while ordinary cav could surround RHK, so moving some of the anti-monster power to them would not hurt the cav game as much as GKs jacked up to deal with monsters do. On the HE side it would help if the PR-dependency was reduced a bit, but over all DPs certainly don't need buffs so there is less room for changes there imo.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,583
    Again you only analize Brets from He standpoint which is pretty pointless in this thread, becasue it's about bretonnia not Bretonnia vs HE. If you make DP trade too cost efficiently brets will lose the match This whole creats false impression as if Brets were stupendously broken.

    GK bvsL helps them in cav fight rather than monster hunting, so i don't know why changes to paladins should somehow affect their BvsL, this is a bit ridiculous. I mean sure take away their BvsL but for a prcie for ap ranged and nets, ok? Because with all He players proposals Brets will be trash tier again, but who cares as long as He players are happy.

    And do't sell me on this we want to help Bretonnia to be balanced, because all you want is to fix your MU regardless what will happen to my faction and it's fine as a Brets fanboy i can understand it, but don't predtend some noble goals ;)

    Again i'm not against to put Brets cav in line with other factions, but then Brets need more flexible tools (like lore of light, better ap ranged, etc tec), they will lose their flavour, but just to nerf their cav and pretend some mild buffs to air force will fi it is not true in my opinion.

    And it's already getting slightly annyoing that this tiopic was taken over by elves again, i'm fine to discus HE vs berets MU, but we have other factions to deal with too, you know.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,512
    what I think is happening here is subtle psychological manipulation, in style of “let’s not discuss the broken matchups for Bretonnia because this is a Bretonnia thread and not an x faction thread. Now let me go back to asking for buffs that will make a good faction even stronger while refusing to accept nerfs to balance out these buffs”. Bret has strong and weak matchups and people are gonna advocate for what they know best, which in the last posts happened by chance to be Bret-HE matchup. It's not like people didn't think about other matchups, they proposed Paladin buffs, buffs to flyers tailored specifically to Chaos matchup. Moral of the story everyone chooses what to read and it's only your fault for selectively reading the negatives while ignoring the rest.

    Also, may I point out that it seems pretty hypocritical to write this post if your true goal is to bring overall balance and not “buff your favorite faction” (like you claim yourself to be doing). One of my most played factions is HE; if I used your same logic, I would say that nerfing Alarielle is wrong, which I do not think because I try to be objective even when discussing a faction I happen to play more often than others. Instead, I think nerfs to her are warranted but at the same time I point out how she pulls a lot of weight at the moment and fills gaps in the HE roster. Probably a similar approach to Bret would encounter less resistance and would be met with more grace instead of "let me keep my GK because they OP but Bretonnia deserves this".

    Back to topic: buffs to flyers are no joke, in TWW1 Bret flyers were pretty dominant. I think pretty much everyone agrees here that fixing flight paths needs to be a priority, however Bret gooning shouldn’t return. Fixing flight paths will go a long way toward making Bret flyers more viable. What we need to care about is to not overbuff them so that they become an autopick.

    A guy in this thread said that “we will never see 3xGK +3x flyers after a buff”, to which I reply: why not? If a unit is good almost in a vacuum (like e.g. current GK), why wouldn’t you take the max amount allowed of it?

    Idk, I would be careful overall about buffing stats on flyers too much. Some people compare RPK to Moon Dragon and say that nothing can hurt since Dragon has MD of 48. Well, try to buff the MD of PK to 48 and you will hopefully see why this analogy must be limited. Size of model, ease to disengage as well as less attacks from the rear and less attacks in general on small models are all differences. So let’s be careful about buffing flyers (which do need buffs however). We’re talking about units that can pick best engagement conditions possible, often have AP or AL and are great vs other air targets on top of being able to grant easy bonuses like charge from rear, terror, break charge defense etc. at crucial moments in the battle.

    I’m all for a Bret buff/rework, only I wouldn’t want this faction to become even more boring to play against, currently it’s extremely boring in that it’s a big cav mash and whoever wins that wins the battle.
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,819
    No you don't get it.

    If you want to improve balance, you need to look into the matchups.

    If you want to buff a faction, which you do, you MUST consider the good matchups that will become better, not only the matchups you want to help.

    In this case it happens to be HE and WE, that's not my fault or anyone elses.

    If I would create a HE thread where I propose DPs get increased AP and BvL to help with the Bret matchup I am 100% sure that people would be all over it pointing out that VC would get shafted... and they should. Do you want a buff bret thread where only people who don't think critically are allowed to post? This is the balance forums, for balance you need counter-arguments. And I am not even opposed to Bret buffs, I am just suggesting to be clever about it.

    Also I did not suggest removing BvL, I said moving some of the anti-monster power from GKs to other units, that is not the same. One could play primarily with AP ratio. GKs need to keep the BvL, otherwise they become cheaper GGs... My point was that GKs were buffed to some extent to help Bret deal with single armored monsters, not because they needed a buff in the cav vs cav game. The result was that they are still not good enough vs monsters, but really good in cav vs cav. If some of that power was instead given to RHK with fewer models the spillover to anti-cav would be less because fewer models can get stick and surrounded by cav. Combine that with another buff to Paladins and Alberic and that could even out the Bret matchups. Helping vs Liz, Chaos etc and nerfing vs HE, and not affecting WE very much.
  • PokemonsdudePokemonsdude Registered Users Posts: 103
    edited September 2018
    One of the main selling point of nerfing grail knights seems to be "yeh but then other units would get buffs", and I think this is an horrible argument.

    what if I told you nobody cares about those other buffs

    what if bretonnia was supposed to be a very one-dimensional faction AND IT'S NOT A PROBLEM

    Personally, I have no problem with a lot of bretonnian units underperforming, and I absolutely don't care about any buffs to paladin, albert, the air force or BPs if this also means nerfing grail knights.

    For the WE and HE match up, again this should not be fixed by nerfing grail knights. Yes this unit is what makes it so hard for WE and HE, but first, nerfing lance formation would be enough of a nerf to Bretonnian knights by itself to atleast fix the HE match up a bit, and adding some buffs to the overpriced sisters/handmaidens of avelorn would already make the HE/Bret match up easier since lance won't just punch through any line.
    For the WE/Bret match up, I know it's just the easy answer but really I just think it's a lost cause. You can't just take the most cav-centric and the most range-centric factions in the game and expect the match up to be balanced. Grail knights aren't even that great in this case, and just spamming a clinic of knights of the realm/ knights errant is just as good or even better against WE. Nerfing grail knights won't fix this match up at all, and there's no way balance WE/bret effectively without either nerfing bret too much or buffing WE too hard.
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