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Fair Bretonnia, potential improvements

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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379
    edited September 2018

    This is if grails had those removed they still be beating the units they beating now, i'm fairly sure grails pay 0 for lane and immune to vigour.

    Right, same like drag pays 0 for 3x free aoe bjuna breath. Sisters thorn pay 0 for their free spells. Warlocks pays 0 for theirs.

    We all know vigour is crap stuffs that meant to overpriced units with them. Easily checked how much they r worth on dwf lords armor. Check how much that vigours worth. Things like it r meant to fill up the whatever overpriced costs on units such as tanks etc.

    On competitive units, does nothing but a parasitic overpricing.

    Unfortunate for grails to bear such $200-$300 unneeded baggage pricing. And that lance, lol who invented something that reduce ur damage so pointless.

    Well except for being a superb missile magnet lol. Plenty of knights to catch the first arrow that misses the first guy.

    Dunno why ppl lie to themselves over such a thing lol. Any option to turn the off for -$ not a single person would EVER bring those useless lance+vigour

    Who in the right mind would say those costs 0 so absurd
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379
    Actually ur right.

    If lance and vigour costs 0.

    Lets give it to ALL bret cavs. Pretty much the rest of them needs it
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157
    yst said:

    This is if grails had those removed they still be beating the units they beating now, i'm fairly sure grails pay 0 for lane and immune to vigour.

    Right, same like drag pays 0 for 3x free aoe bjuna breath. Sisters thorn pay 0 for their free spells. Warlocks pays 0 for theirs.

    We all know vigour is crap stuffs that meant to overpriced units with them. Easily checked how much they r worth on dwf lords armor. Check how much that vigours worth. Things like it r meant to fill up the whatever overpriced costs on units such as tanks etc.

    On competitive units, does nothing but a parasitic overpricing.

    Unfortunate for grails to bear such $200-$300 unneeded baggage pricing. And that lance, lol who invented something that reduce ur damage so pointless.

    Well except for being a superb missile magnet lol. Plenty of knights to catch the first arrow that misses the first guy.

    Dunno why ppl lie to themselves over such a thing lol. Any option to turn the off for -$ not a single person would EVER bring those useless lance+vigour

    Who in the right mind would say those costs 0 so absurd
    Dragon breaths do cost its why dragons went up in price compared to game 1.

    Not sure why you throw other irrelevant info into it, look at Grail Stats and performance while fresh this is when immune to vigour has no effect, their performance is great (and so it should) but you cannot ignore that immune to vigour is there and it has big impact mid to late game. If you think grails would be 200 or 300 cheaper without immune to vigours you're being plain idiotic do you think knights of the blazing sun and grails are same level, because grails at 1250 without immune to vigour would be absolutely idiotic for the game.

    You're wrong with the lance also there is nothing forcing you to run in the lance while approaching, you can turn it on just before you charge to get 0 penalties of long formation than you get all the benefits of lance.

    Mind you i dont actually think the immune to vigour can be removed from them but they too good for their cost now. And even if it was removed they do not deserve a cost decrease at all.

    Neither should lance formation it should remain just remove the acceleration bonus from it. So the units cannot bounce from 1 to another like its nothing.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157
    I got a good nerf to their immune to vigour; Make it remain until they are broken, if they're fled once its removed for rest of the game. They still be too good but at leas now late game they would suffer the LD penalty that comes with it.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379
    edited September 2018
    Doesnt really matter. Grails and all bret knights for that matter need the option to sell this trash formation for $100 ish

    Been plagued by this parasitic garbage formation too long, carrying the huge burden of being overpriced because of it.

    It would be nice too if we can sell the useless vigour for some $ too

    Afterall even vampires can sell their blood hunger lol!
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,755
    Point is that as anti cav cav, gk are not over priced without perfect vigor. They perform on cost vs fresh units. You can't sell what you didn't pay for. With that high shock cav cb they are not bad vs inf either. Gk are totally cost efficient.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157
    edited September 2018
    yst said:

    Doesnt really matter. Grails and all bret knights for that matter need the option to sell this trash formation for $100 ish

    Been plagued by this parasitic garbage formation too long, carrying the huge burden of being overpriced because of it.

    It would be nice too if we can sell the useless vigour for some $ too

    Afterall even vampires can sell their blood hunger lol!

    You saying bret cav is overpriced? What is wrong with you? Bret cav is the most cost effective cav in the game by a significant margin.

    Compare any of their knights to other knights in same price range of any roster and you will see how wrong your statement is.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157

    Point is that as anti cav cav, gk are not over priced without perfect vigor. They perform on cost vs fresh units. You can't sell what you didn't pay for. With that high shock cav cb they are not bad vs inf either. Gk are totally cost efficient.

    And get significantly better once other units get tired/exhausted.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580

    I got a good nerf to their immune to vigour; Make it remain until they are broken, if they're fled once its removed for rest of the game. They still be too good but at leas now late game they would suffer the LD penalty that comes with it.

    This would be stupid, and they don't deserve this change.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379
    edited September 2018
    Not really, all i see is ppl whine and qq about garbage lance and vigour.

    Pretty simple, sell them, coz bret players dont really want them anyway lol.

    If they r frikking free as mentioned why the frick we have fanbois still qqing about it this day.

    Its great u mention same price range. Why dont ppl test it out, fight a demi, fight a blood, fight a nec halberd and see the results. Its boring af, absolutely nothing impressive about grails, totally nada. Ud expect them to be the kings of cav and actually have a VERY VISIBLE edge, nope lol nothing. All those cost efficient talks, straight down the drain.

    All we have here r ppl extremely unhappy about a cav thats actually doing their job.

    Really its time to give a significant nerf to those move and shoot welf archers, dual ap bolt dark elf, and pretty much every single unit in the faction. Significant nerf to high elf archers, like duh $500 empire xbow vs $475 high elf archer not clear enough?

    Anything that performs cost efficient must be nerfed together with brets.
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    GK win against nec halberd ;)
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379
    edited September 2018

    GK win against nec halberd ;)

    Sure they do, nec hal is cheaper. Tho judging the the holy reverance and grail worship by elves we should be seeing a complete blood bath, not some pathetic phyric victory lol....

    Afterall it is said that they EXTREMELY cost efficient, pretty pathetic result if thats the case

    I want to see clear solid faction advantage, $475 high elf archer vs $500 xbows, crazy move and shoot welf archers, solid $650 longbeards. What brets got lol some cav that draws or take insane casualty against same class? the hell with that lol. No wonder pretty much 8/10 factions steamrolls them like hot knife thru butter.

    GK win against nec halberd ;)

    Thats just a consolation prize, after that u get a lose from tombs lulz.
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  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,738
    edited September 2018
    The thing i dont get why people are adamant against lance needs a price nerf. lance isnt a an ability like fire breath or so on

    Its a formation change that has pros and cons
    Its not a “free” stuff
    I dont mind accel nerf cause i dont think its going to change much

    And about gk being too cheap
    Test it against demi with halberd it barely wins. Probably would lose in some cases too
    And i rather have fear and terror than perfect vigour and lance
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Green0 said:

    what I think is happening here is subtle psychological manipulation, in style of “let’s not discuss the broken matchups for Bretonnia because this is a Bretonnia thread and not an x faction thread. Now let me go back to asking for buffs that will make a good faction even stronger while refusing to accept nerfs to balance out these buffs”. Bret has strong and weak matchups and people are gonna advocate for what they know best, which in the last posts happened by chance to be Bret-HE matchup. It's not like people didn't think about other matchups, they proposed Paladin buffs, buffs to flyers tailored specifically to Chaos matchup. Moral of the story everyone chooses what to read and it's only your fault for selectively reading the negatives while ignoring the rest.

    Also, may I point out that it seems pretty hypocritical to write this post if your true goal is to bring overall balance and not “buff your favorite faction” (like you claim yourself to be doing). One of my most played factions is HE; if I used your same logic, I would say that nerfing Alarielle is wrong, which I do not think because I try to be objective even when discussing a faction I happen to play more often than others. Instead, I think nerfs to her are warranted but at the same time I point out how she pulls a lot of weight at the moment and fills gaps in the HE roster. Probably a similar approach to Bret would encounter less resistance and would be met with more grace instead of "let me keep my GK because they OP but Bretonnia deserves this".

    Back to topic: buffs to flyers are no joke, in TWW1 Bret flyers were pretty dominant. I think pretty much everyone agrees here that fixing flight paths needs to be a priority, however Bret gooning shouldn’t return. Fixing flight paths will go a long way toward making Bret flyers more viable. What we need to care about is to not overbuff them so that they become an autopick.

    A guy in this thread said that “we will never see 3xGK +3x flyers after a buff”, to which I reply: why not? If a unit is good almost in a vacuum (like e.g. current GK), why wouldn’t you take the max amount allowed of it?

    Idk, I would be careful overall about buffing stats on flyers too much. Some people compare RPK to Moon Dragon and say that nothing can hurt since Dragon has MD of 48. Well, try to buff the MD of PK to 48 and you will hopefully see why this analogy must be limited. Size of model, ease to disengage as well as less attacks from the rear and less attacks in general on small models are all differences. So let’s be careful about buffing flyers (which do need buffs however). We’re talking about units that can pick best engagement conditions possible, often have AP or AL and are great vs other air targets on top of being able to grant easy bonuses like charge from rear, terror, break charge defense etc. at crucial moments in the battle.

    I’m all for a Bret buff/rework, only I wouldn’t want this faction to become even more boring to play against, currently it’s extremely boring in that it’s a big cav mash and whoever wins that wins the battle.

    I got a good nerf to their immune to vigour; Make it remain until they are broken, if they're fled once its removed for rest of the game. They still be too good but at leas now late game they would suffer the LD penalty that comes with it.

    This would be stupid, and they don't deserve this change.
    It is not even funny. Elven SJW wants to nerf every unit that can be dangerous for their factions. I mean, Grails are specificaly good against DP, in other cases they perfom as they should. It is easier to change HE than put Bret into trash can. Also, I remember that before this they cried about Grail Guardians blob and GK werent so broken. What has changed ?
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    edited September 2018
    it is hard to discuss balance when people who play one faction adamantly want to defend a unit that is too good for its cost and dismiss all attempts to reason about such units as “SJW” and “crying for nerfs”. Can we please keep ad hominem arguments out of the question in the future? They make discussions unnecessarily confrontational, emotionally heavy and overall unpleasant, especially when we remember that we’re talking about a videogame in the end.

    Sadly I’m in the middle of something, so doing tests isn’t easy, but in 1 month or so I hopefully will show why and how GK are broken. Lotus already has explained elsewhere how they are too cost effective and I agree 100% with his view: in short, very high AP ratio, high AL bonus that keeps them with a good WS (with high AP) and MA even in a grind vs everything but the sturdiest of anti-cav cav such as Demis and perfect vigor which is incredibly useful late-game. Go read that table of how big the penalties due to fatigue are to MA, MD, Armor, WS, CB and LD. In the bottom 2 stages, Very Tired and Exhausted, they are something like -25/30% on each of the above stats. Less speed too which makes it very difficult to reach the charge speed sometimes.

    Vs HE specifically: due to HE bringing very thin infantry lines, GK excel at piercing their infantry and cycle charging in very clustered space due to acceleration bonus from Lance. So vs HE specifically, Lance formation plays a role on top of everything I’ve listed.

    Currently Bret is basically like this:
    - infantry: mostly trash but serves as anvil so overall has uses, won’t get kills though
    - squires: good level, could use a +25 nerf, sometimes you see Squires frontlines. Not a huge problem, can stay as they are but I’m not a fan of Bret having effective AP infantry, would prefer them to bring cost-effective AP in the form of RHK/Paladin/Treb/QK/Lords
    - QK: good unit
    - KotR/KE: very good and good units respectively
    - GK: OP
    - Treb: trash, has a niche vs HE. Hard to justify buffs to Trebs alone without buffing all remaining catapults too though.

    so basically currently some of the lacks of Brets are made up for by GK being OP.

    Since everything can be changed in 1 patch at once, both OP and UP stuff, I don’t see why we should keep GK on OP level once Bretonnia receives other tools to deal with problematic units. CA has always been extremely fair in balancing nerfs and buffs where needed, I don’t see what people are afraid of. It’s not like anyone personally here will make these buffs/nerfs anyway or Brets will get screwed by receiving only nerf to GK but no buffs to compensate, it has never happened.

    Besides, people are unhappy about 1 unit (GK), and most people ask for love to 3-4 units (Paladin, RPK, PK, maybe Treb). So 1 nerf and 3-4 buffs to me sounds like the faction would improve overall. It’s just about getting rid of autopick, toxic units that have a reason to be picked in almost every matchup and GK fall into this category exactly.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,755
    If gk are fine or even over priced we have a whole lot of cav buffing to do to get the game in balance again. All ck -100, dp -50, etc etc.

    The thing i dont get why people are adamant against lance needs a price nerf. lance isnt a an ability like fire breath or so on

    Its a formation change that has pros and cons
    Its not a “free” stuff
    I dont mind accel nerf cause i dont think its going to change much

    And about gk being too cheap
    Test it against demi with halberd it barely wins. Probably would lose in some cases too
    And i rather have fear and terror than perfect vigour and lance

    Demis are halberds, and if you do actually compare you'll see that GKs do much much better than DPs or CKs lances.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379

    Demis are halberds, and if you do actually compare you'll see that GKs do much much better than DPs or CKs lances.

    Chaos knights r no less than grails.
    - They have +4 att +4 def and a whopping +8 dmg and +2 charge more than grails.
    - They also have 15% more hp to make up for the lack of 20% resist which btw can be lost if broken.
    - A huge +30 more armor
    - Most importantly, they have fear, pretty much what all cav wants, to break enemy even faster and routs them.
    - Funnily have -6 less ld.

    Drag prince, another great generalist shock cav
    - They have martial mastery of +8 att and +12 def
    - Big +20 more armor
    - An even higher phy resist at 25% which cannot be lost
    - Flame resist where the most popular form of magic imbue via flaming sword r render useless. Bit of a bonus trait, much like lance.
    - +9 more dmg trading for -3 ap

    Against anything non large, they easily outperforms grail without a doubt.
    Absolutely nothing less than grails, which r only better vs large.

    There is no faction str shown. Where it is a lot more visible in cases like $475 high elf archer vs $500 xbow with 20m more range
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    ^ Grails perform better late-game vs small infantry blobs due to perfect vigor. Not to mention that on a cav unit you almost always want anti-large capacity and not anti-infantry since cav is mostly useful to contest cav game, not to rotflstomp infantry in MP.

    Don’t Crossbowmen also have 1 AP more than HE Archers? I agree that HE are the more cost-effective archers of the two overall, then again what Empire loses in non-AP missiles, it gains with $600 Handgunners so all in all it’s even I’d say when HE have to pay $1100 for what essentially is Handgunner duty in the end (do more damage but can be dodged more easily also).
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,755
    It's actually a weakness that HE only has generalist cav so please don't quote that as something good. Only one unit of ROR DPs can fill that role.

    The way it plays is that if you win the mobility game you can cycle charge the rest. GK are shock cav with a great CB so when cycle charging stats doesn't really matter. With that CB you hit every time vs infantry on the charge so no high MA needed if you have already won the cav game. If you want to grind vs infantry you buy GG instead so that tool is available too.

    That's the problem with the Bret-HE matchup right there, since the mobility game can't be won, it's down to defensive geometries, and to make things worse there is some sort of general consensus that trebs and blessed trebs deserve buffs. That may actually be right, but what it does to this matchup is that it punishes the only thing HE can try to do even more....

    So I really hope @CA_Duck is clever about this and makes an effort to unbreak this matchup and don't make it worse. The key really lies in fixing the magic damage vs phys resist mismatch on GK vs DP and GG vs PG. One way or the other. I don't care how, but something is really needed if this MU is to be played at all.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    edited September 2018
    You guys are so rich with your constant freaking whining.

    I don't see overdramatic Bret Threads filled with salty tears over Chaos etc ;)

    But the amount of crying comming from HE is constant and amlost unbereable. Infesting every thread whith their buzzzing, lies, misinformation, demands and salt. .

    I hope nobody sane will listen to HE cryibabies and their concealed damands on removing magic dmg from brets or whatever they try to push here.

    But if they do i will be there HE whiners to kill you with Tilea, cheeers ;)
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,755
    ^ I argue, but I hear whining about whining.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157

    The thing i dont get why people are adamant against lance needs a price nerf. lance isnt a an ability like fire breath or so on

    Its a formation change that has pros and cons
    Its not a “free” stuff
    I dont mind accel nerf cause i dont think its going to change much

    And about gk being too cheap
    Test it against demi with halberd it barely wins. Probably would lose in some cases too
    And i rather have fear and terror than perfect vigour and lance

    Theres actually no downside to lance formation now, issue is it provides too much buffs at 0 offset (im ok by having no downside just i feel theres too much buffs). Not having a go but there is absolutly no cons at all. Deepwr formation from warmachines is only an issue if the bret player is too lazy to switch to lance just before charging.

    Demis dont have terror by the way unless you're talking about ROR ones? If you rather fear and even terror over ITP and ITV than you heavly underestimate their value.

    By the way demis are monstorous cav if grails can trade with monstourous cav that specialises at fighting cav and monsters while grails being an all round unit thats good vs everything it just shows how undercosted they are. Without ITV even comming into effect.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379

    Theres actually no downside to lance formation now, issue is it provides too much buffs at 0 offset (im ok by having no downside just i feel theres too much buffs). Not having a go but there is absolutly no cons at all. Deepwr formation from warmachines is only an issue if the bret player is too lazy to switch to lance just before charging.

    Why would u charge with lance and reduce ur dmg? Makes no sense
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157
    yst said:

    Theres actually no downside to lance formation now, issue is it provides too much buffs at 0 offset (im ok by having no downside just i feel theres too much buffs). Not having a go but there is absolutly no cons at all. Deepwr formation from warmachines is only an issue if the bret player is too lazy to switch to lance just before charging.

    Why would u charge with lance and reduce ur dmg? Makes no sense
    Because it actually does more damage with lance and you get more speed (to catch light cav) and pull put due to acceleration and higher penetration. Happy to test this with you if you like as well as effect on vigour in fights.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    There is a downside to lance, the amount of models hitting on the charge.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157

    There is a downside to lance, the amount of models hitting on the charge.

    When do you have time to test it? because from my experience and visually that is not correct.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379
    edited October 2018



    When do you have time to test it? because from my experience and visually that is not correct.

    No need, duck already explained it clearly.

    A wedge-shaped formation is inherently a debuff for the performance of cavalry in our game as charges are all about how many entities are actually attacking the enemy front line. The wedge reduces the impact area, but makes that impact area hit harder.

    Well, pre-patch Lance formation simply wasn't useful enough (according to player feedback and metrics). Buffing the charge damage even more to compensate seems risky as Grail Knights with Lance already have a ridiculous charge bonus and actual prolonged melee bonuses don't feel right for a formation all about charges. So it felt safer to remove the artificial drawbacks from the ability than to buff it up even further. Now Brets can feel the need, the need for speed.

    Only time u would go lance is like when charging a giant for example, even then u want them to surround which lance impedes that so, in short, a mechanic for campaign immersion with 0 practical use.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,379
    edited October 2018






    U can do a bunch of tests where lance wins etc etc. Doesnt really matter no need to go in depth why they r bad, waste of time



    Theres many reasons why bret players never touch trash formation to nerf their cav
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,755
    yst said:


    Theres many reasons why bret players never touch trash formation to nerf their cav

    I am pretty sure I have seen it lol.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157
    edited October 2018
    DId you just try prove lance formation in cav v cav fight?

    Funny how grails beat demis halberd ey.... and this is while both are fresh! imagine if demis were not fresh and immune to vigour had effect...

    The damage is exactly the same with and without lance, where lance shines is its ability to pull through and move from target to target and its initial impact dmg vs high MD units. Not to mention higher charge speed so faster cav cannot get away from it. with lance grail knight CB becomes 106 and charege speed nearly 100, they can catch light cav when they start their charge animation there is no running away. thats plenty of benefit already there is no need to have faster acceleration.

    and how are they balanced when they beat demis ahlberds at both being fresh? i dont get it.
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