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[lore question] bloodlines?

TombThingsTombThings Registered Users Posts: 103
Why are there more than one bloodline? I thought all vamps in WH originated from a single vampire? Was it an evolution within their families or something?

Comments

  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    There were 5 original vampires that have their strenght in some ways.
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Registered Users Posts: 1,306
    Well, technically they're all lahmians.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,898
    edited October 2018
    Neferata was the first vampire, but she didn't turn the others by giving them the Blood Kiss, she gave them the same elixir that she took. So the bloodlines come from those individuals who took the elixir and, apparently, there were at least seven of them. Problem is that we only know about five of them and the other two (at least) are unknown. So no, they are not technically all Lahmian vampires, just mostly from Lahmia (though I don't think all were, some were not necessarily born there and might have basically been visiting).

    Probably GW's way to allow people to create their own headcanon. Its what I've done with the oceangoing vamps and depth guard in this DLC. I think that they're from one of the unknown bloodlines.

    Edit: I'm actually not sure who every founder of the Bloodlines we know was. Neferata was, obviously, the Lahmian. W'Soran was the one who started the Necrarchs; he was apparently a prince of Rasetra who ended up as Lahmia's high priest and convinced Neferata to get on with it, even helping make the elixir. One named Vashanesh is the progenitor of the Von Carsteins; he was married to Neferata and may actually be Vlad Von Carstein (confirmed in the End Times, but some folks don't consider that canon). Abhorash was something like the master at arms in Lahmia and became the founder of the Blood Dragon bloodline. Ushoran is the one responsible for the Strigoi, though they only became beastly because the Empire they founded was destroyed by Orcs (and this may be thanks to Neferata being mean).
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  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    Canuovea said:

    Neferata was the first vampire, but she didn't turn the others by giving them the Blood Kiss, she gave them the same elixir that she took. So the bloodlines come from those individuals who took the elixir and, apparently, there were at least seven of them. Problem is that we only know about five of them and the other two (at least) are unknown.

    Probably GW's way to allow people to create their own headcanon. Its what I've done with the oceangoing vamps and depth guard in this DLC. I think that they're from one of the unknown bloodlines.

    Idk about depth guard, Luthor is blood dragon, maybe they were created by him
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,898

    Canuovea said:

    Neferata was the first vampire, but she didn't turn the others by giving them the Blood Kiss, she gave them the same elixir that she took. So the bloodlines come from those individuals who took the elixir and, apparently, there were at least seven of them. Problem is that we only know about five of them and the other two (at least) are unknown.

    Probably GW's way to allow people to create their own headcanon. Its what I've done with the oceangoing vamps and depth guard in this DLC. I think that they're from one of the unknown bloodlines.

    Idk about depth guard, Luthor is blood dragon, maybe they were created by him
    Could be, certainly. But I like my headcanon. I mean, Depth Guard might not even be the same type of vampire as the Captains and Admirals either, from the look of it.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -The "Spam" flag is not a "disagree" flag. Have a care.
    -...No, no the "Abuse" flag isn't a "disagree" flag either!
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • Nyanko73Nyanko73 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,351

    Canuovea said:

    Neferata was the first vampire, but she didn't turn the others by giving them the Blood Kiss, she gave them the same elixir that she took. So the bloodlines come from those individuals who took the elixir and, apparently, there were at least seven of them. Problem is that we only know about five of them and the other two (at least) are unknown.

    Probably GW's way to allow people to create their own headcanon. Its what I've done with the oceangoing vamps and depth guard in this DLC. I think that they're from one of the unknown bloodlines.

    Idk about depth guard, Luthor is blood dragon, maybe they were created by him
    He didn't have to create them though. Maybe they joined freely and were former blooddragons. He might even have had a retinue with him before turning pirate.

    Team Yennefer

    "A blinding flash materialised into a transparent sphere, and inside it loomed a shape, assuming contours and shapes at frightening speed. Dandelion recognised it at once. He knew those wild, black curls and the obsidian star on a velvet ribbon. What he didn’t know and had never seen before was the face. It was a face of rage and fury, the face of the goddess of vengeance, destruction and death." - Time of contempt
  • Boombastek91Boombastek91 Registered Users Posts: 787
    Nyanko73 said:

    Canuovea said:

    Neferata was the first vampire, but she didn't turn the others by giving them the Blood Kiss, she gave them the same elixir that she took. So the bloodlines come from those individuals who took the elixir and, apparently, there were at least seven of them. Problem is that we only know about five of them and the other two (at least) are unknown.

    Probably GW's way to allow people to create their own headcanon. Its what I've done with the oceangoing vamps and depth guard in this DLC. I think that they're from one of the unknown bloodlines.

    Idk about depth guard, Luthor is blood dragon, maybe they were created by him
    He didn't have to create them though. Maybe they joined freely and were former blooddragons. He might even have had a retinue with him before turning pirate.
    As i know there were no undead pirates and more like vampire pirate till Luthor turn norska pirate ship into undead.
    Correct me if I wrong
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,844
    edited October 2018
    Neferata turned herself into a Vampire then made others: The original master Vampires.

    Eight survived the sacking of Lahmia by the Priest Kings of Nehekhera.

    Each of these eight surviving Master Vampires founded a Bloodline that over time developed distinct traits.

    Five fled to the Old World near the Empire.

    Neferata went into hiding and founded the Lahmian Bloodline.

    Abhorash slew a Dragon in single combat and freed himself from the need for Blood, then founded the Blood Dragons and commanded his offspring to perform deeds of martial excellence to prove they were ready to do the same.

    W'soran went into hiding to study the winds of magic and perfect his sorcery and created offspring, the Necrarchs, that learned the same.

    Vashanesh disappeared into the forests that would become the Empire and thousands of years later founded the von Carstein dynasty.

    Ushoran founded a kingdom in the Badlands that was destroyed by an Orc Waaagh! His surviving offspring are the Strigoi.

    Of the other three Master Vampires one disappeared into the Chaos Wastes and two others disappeared into the Far East, possibly Cathay.
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Registered Users Posts: 1,531
    Nitros14 said:

    Neferata turned herself into a Vampire then made others: The original master Vampires.

    Eight survived the sacking of Lahmia by the Priest Kings of Nehekhera.

    Each of these eight surviving Master Vampires founded a Bloodline that over time developed distinct traits.

    Five fled to the Old World near the Empire.

    Neferata went into hiding and founded the Lahmian Bloodline.

    Abhorash slew a Dragon in single combat and freed himself from the need for Blood, then founded the Blood Dragons and commanded his offspring to perform deeds of martial excellence to prove they were ready to do the same.

    W'soran went into hiding to study the winds of magic and perfect his sorcery and created offspring, the Necrarchs, that learned the same.

    Vashanesh disappeared into the forests that would become the Empire and thousands of years later founded the von Carstein dynasty.

    Ushoran founded a kingdom in the Badlands that was destroyed by an Orc Waaagh! His surviving offspring are the Strigoi.

    Of the other three Master Vampires one disappeared into the Chaos Wastes and two others disappeared into the Far East, possibly Cathay.

    More or less this. Basically when Lahmia was sacked many master vampires were killed, as back then those vampires lacked centuries worth of magic and combat experience and so were quickly taken out.

    To create a new blood line all GW had to say was, "oh yeah this other master vampire survived the attack on Lamia too". Heck you could say that High queen Khalida was a very shoe-horned in character that squeezed into Neferata's established lore.

    There was ideally supposed to a vampire representation in Cathay, representing the stereotype Chinese vampires (or jiangshi), but it didn't get any attention since Cathay was not really give a proper lore and faction treatment.

    There was also another weird retconned vampire bloodline involving a cross between vampires and insects/mosquitoes, but I think that was more or less removed from the lore.
  • Lord_KamionLord_Kamion Registered Users Posts: 959
    Nitros14 said:

    Neferata turned herself into a Vampire then made others: The original master Vampires.

    Eight survived the sacking of Lahmia by the Priest Kings of Nehekhera.

    Each of these eight surviving Master Vampires founded a Bloodline that over time developed distinct traits.

    Five fled to the Old World near the Empire.

    Neferata went into hiding and founded the Lahmian Bloodline.

    Abhorash slew a Dragon in single combat and freed himself from the need for Blood, then founded the Blood Dragons and commanded his offspring to perform deeds of martial excellence to prove they were ready to do the same.

    W'soran went into hiding to study the winds of magic and perfect his sorcery and created offspring, the Necrarchs, that learned the same.

    Vashanesh disappeared into the forests that would become the Empire and thousands of years later founded the von Carstein dynasty.

    Ushoran founded a kingdom in the Badlands that was destroyed by an Orc Waaagh! His surviving offspring are the Strigoi.

    Of the other three Master Vampires one disappeared into the Chaos Wastes and two others disappeared into the Far East, possibly Cathay.

    Cathay vampire faction for game 3 confirmed
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Registered Users Posts: 2,817
    edited October 2018
    The original bloodlines are all unique, in that they weren't turned by another Vampire, but rather the primogenitor of each line became a Vampire, by drinking the Elixir of Life.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,866
    While Neferata is Technically the First Vampire of the Warhammer Setting, all the Bloodlines Founders are a First Generation Vampires, it's also explains why Abhorash is stronger than Neferata.
  • crimsonsuncrimsonsun Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 390

    The original bloodlines are all unique, in that they weren't turned by another Vampire, but rather the primogenitor of each line became a Vampire, by drinking the Elixir of Life.

    This is correct, the Blood Lines are the original vampires who drank a potion instead of being bitten that potion effected them all differently and there personalities were passed on in the Blood Lines

    Also the Vampire weaknesses apart from Blood Lust which was a side effect of the potion were curses placed by Nagash for Vampires betraying him, that's why they all have different weaknesses.
    "This land" "Is my home, my birthright! The wind and rain are my allies. The trees and stones are my foot soldiers. The very earth will rise up against you, should you try to take it from me. And my people will feast on your bones!"
    - Mannfred Von Carstein
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,974
    Canuovea said:

    Neferata was the first vampire, but she didn't turn the others by giving them the Blood Kiss, she gave them the same elixir that she took. So the bloodlines come from those individuals who took the elixir and, apparently, there were at least seven of them. Problem is that we only know about five of them and the other two (at least) are unknown. So no, they are not technically all Lahmian vampires, just mostly from Lahmia (though I don't think all were, some were not necessarily born there and might have basically been visiting).

    Probably GW's way to allow people to create their own headcanon. Its what I've done with the oceangoing vamps and depth guard in this DLC. I think that they're from one of the unknown bloodlines.

    Edit: I'm actually not sure who every founder of the Bloodlines we know was. Neferata was, obviously, the Lahmian. W'Soran was the one who started the Necrarchs; he was apparently a prince of Rasetra who ended up as Lahmia's high priest and convinced Neferata to get on with it, even helping make the elixir. One named Vashanesh is the progenitor of the Von Carsteins; he was married to Neferata and may actually be Vlad Von Carstein (confirmed in the End Times, but some folks don't consider that canon). Abhorash was something like the master at arms in Lahmia and became the founder of the Blood Dragon bloodline. Ushoran is the one responsible for the Strigoi, though they only became beastly because the Empire they founded was destroyed by Orcs (and this may be thanks to Neferata being mean).

    Agree with all this. But to clarify it is strongly hinted/proved that Vlad is the first von carstein. His whole background etc shows it.

    Compare for example red duke and vlad. Red duke turned by aborash etc.

    But vlad is dracula. The original etc in his whole lore.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,974
    And i def dont think end times is canon for warhammer fantasy battles. It is its own setting (both lore and tabletop)
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • crimsonsuncrimsonsun Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 390
    That Vlad was Vashanesh was also in Nights Dark Masters for Warhammer Roleplay, which was canon and was never superceded by a retcon.
    "This land" "Is my home, my birthright! The wind and rain are my allies. The trees and stones are my foot soldiers. The very earth will rise up against you, should you try to take it from me. And my people will feast on your bones!"
    - Mannfred Von Carstein
  • vintagepurplevintagepurple Registered Users Posts: 800

    The original bloodlines are all unique, in that they weren't turned by another Vampire, but rather the primogenitor of each line became a Vampire, by drinking the Elixir of Life.

    This is correct, the Blood Lines are the original vampires who drank a potion instead of being bitten that potion effected them all differently and there personalities were passed on in the Blood Lines

    Also the Vampire weaknesses apart from Blood Lust which was a side effect of the potion were curses placed by Nagash for Vampires betraying him, that's why they all have different weaknesses.
    One thing though, getting bitten doesn't turn you into a vampire. Usually it just turns you dead (but doesn't have to, which is why the Von Carsteins have mortal subjects that are just fine with things. A blood donation now and again seems a fair trade from never having to pay taxes and rarely doing any military service.)

    But the Blood Kiss, while never fully described, takes more effort, and involves the vampire-to-be drinking their vampiric parent's own cursed blood.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,974

    That Vlad was Vashanesh was also in Nights Dark Masters for Warhammer Roleplay, which was canon and was never superceded by a retcon.

    Yeah you are right!
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Registered Users Posts: 2,288
    I seem to remember somewhere a possibly pseudo-canonical mention of Arabian vampires too. They might be the mosquito-like vamps someone mentioned above, or they might be mixed in with Arabian assassin cults.
  • crimsonsuncrimsonsun Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 390

    The original bloodlines are all unique, in that they weren't turned by another Vampire, but rather the primogenitor of each line became a Vampire, by drinking the Elixir of Life.

    This is correct, the Blood Lines are the original vampires who drank a potion instead of being bitten that potion effected them all differently and there personalities were passed on in the Blood Lines

    Also the Vampire weaknesses apart from Blood Lust which was a side effect of the potion were curses placed by Nagash for Vampires betraying him, that's why they all have different weaknesses.
    One thing though, getting bitten doesn't turn you into a vampire. Usually it just turns you dead (but doesn't have to, which is why the Von Carsteins have mortal subjects that are just fine with things. A blood donation now and again seems a fair trade from never having to pay taxes and rarely doing any military service.)

    But the Blood Kiss, while never fully described, takes more effort, and involves the vampire-to-be drinking their vampiric parent's own cursed blood.
    The blood kiss is described in detail for each Bloodline in Nights Dark Masters, but yeah theres more to it than drinking blood off someone it has to be something the vampire chooses to do though the specifics do vary bloodline to bloodline.
    "This land" "Is my home, my birthright! The wind and rain are my allies. The trees and stones are my foot soldiers. The very earth will rise up against you, should you try to take it from me. And my people will feast on your bones!"
    - Mannfred Von Carstein
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,376
    Another thing to note about the bloodlines is that as much as vampire lore, especially in the army books, focuses on them, they are not more important than the individual personalities of the vampires themselves. This requires some explanation to unpack.

    WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD

    (Also, please correct any mistakes I make since a lot of you are more up on vampire lore than me.)

    The main reason for why bloodlines aren't everything is that a vampire's personality isn't predetermined by their bloodline.

    For all the waffling in the army books about vampires being beasts and having a drive to dominate mortals and other edgy stuff, the novels and ancillary sources show that as long as they don't go mad during the transformation from mortal to undead, vampires retain the bulk of their mortal personalities. Warhammer vampires are ultimately people as much as humans are, and like humans they can do what they wish with their lives; they're not bound by fate to follow their peers or progenitor's example.

    Take Hans, the happy the baker of Lumberg. If a powerful Von Carstein vampire gives him the Blood Kiss, he won't transform into Dracula automatically. He'll still be Hans the baker of Lumberg, just with magical powers and a need to drink blood. As long as he can stay fed, control his predatory urges (which is hard but doable for young vampires and gets a lot easier with age), and avoid attracting unwanted attention, there's nothing actually forcing Hans to add "von Carstein" to his name, head to Sylvania, adopt a Romanian accent, and start abducting peasant girls.

    This rule isn't just for young vampires, either. Older ones tend to be very set in their ways, but they can still choose how to live their lives. Using the Hans example, if his Von Carstein sire really wanted to, she could sell her castle, move in with him, and become his assistant and later his bride. She'd probably be taking some serious risks doing that, especially if her fellow Von Carsteins have anything to say about it, but there's nothing magically stopping her from making that life-changing choice if she wants to. If you want an example of this from the lore, look at the relationship between the ancient Vlad/Vashanesh and the young Isabella and how it went from a marriage of convenience to a deep, genuine, and mutual love.

    Because of their free will and varying personalities, vampires can vary a great deal in their behavior and nature, regardless of their bloodline. The stereotypical Von Carstain vampire is an aristocratic Dracula, but he could also be a beastly Nosferatu like a stereotypical Strigoi vampire, a decrepit wizard like a stereotypical Nechrarch vampire, or a martial warrior like a stereotypical Blood Dragon vampire. And this applies to members of all the bloodlines: A Nechrarch who cares about his appearance could be a Dracula. The same goes for a Strigoi who avoids being driven underground by members of other bloodlines. This can be true because, again, Vampires are just as much individuals as humans are: They're not bound to follow the example of the majority of their kind, nor are they magically compelled to work for the good of their bloodline any more than humans are to serve their countries.

    To be sure, there are some peculiarities and traits that come with each bloodline. The Nechrarchs tend to have stronger casting abilities, the Von Carsteins tend to be more charismatic, the Strigoi more easily succumb to beasthood, etc. But these are merely common trends among vampires in a bloodline rather than hard and fast rules. Just because most Blood Dragons are magically weak doesn't mean a Blood Dragon can't have decent magical abilities; it's just less likely than for vampires from other bloodlines.

    In addition, some bloodlines are a lot more controlling of their members than others. Blood Dragons, for instance, don't really give a toss about what other Blood Dragons do and don't maintain any connections with each other save by choice. By contrast, the Lahmians are extremely controlling and will try to hunt down any Lahmians who decide not to obey to Neferata's every whim. The Von Carsteins are all over the place: Some loyally await the return of their masters so they can serve them again, some go solo and try to become powerful themselves, and some just don't care about any of that bloodline or ambition nonsense and do their own thing.

    All this isn't to say that the bloodlines aren't important and don't deserve their prominence, because they totally do. They're the largest and most powerful groups among vampirekind, so they're far more likely to raise armies, wage war, and affect the broader setting than lone vampires are. Since Warhammer is very focused on big events and especially large-scale warfare, the Bloodlines get the vast majority of the attention. They also give players and fans a great foundation for understanding the different ways vampires affect the Warhammer world and making their own armies and stories with the universe.

    However, we shouldn't let bloodlines' dominance of the lore fool us into assuming that every vampire is following their bloodline's lead because many vampires don't. They just usually keep their heads down for any number of reasons (the contempt or even hatred directed at them by vampires loyal to their bloodlines being one of the biggest).

    Finally, to prove that I'm not making things up, here's an example of what I'm talking about: The Vampire Coast's Arch Grand Commodore, Luthor Harkon.

    Harkon was one of the very first Blood Dragons, turned by either Walach Harkon (who has no relation to Luthor despite their identical last names) or Abhorash himself. After being a typical Blood Dragon in his early centuries, Harkon pretty much cast his past and decided to do something else with his life; something that had absolutely nothing to do with his bloodline or progenitor.

    So Harkon put his coffin on a ship, got stolen by Norscans, wound up in Lustria, became a full-on pirate, and created the longest-lasting, most successful vampire realm the world has ever seen.* But he didn't stop there. Rather than accept his bloodline-induced magical handicap and focus on martial prowess, Harkon uses stolen Old One magic to boost his power and fights with pistols. He also got really creative with his undead troops, giving his zombies guns and using cannons and sea creatures in his armies.

    Now, Harkon's work would not be viewed favorably by most bloodline loyalists. While the Blood Dragons are the least cohesive bloodline, all the bloodlines tend to be focused on either following their progenitor's example (Nechrarchs and Blood Dragons), a glorious past when they reigned supreme (Lahmians and Strigoi), or a mixture of both. Unless it's deepening studies started by their progenitor like the Nechrarchs studying necromancy, most vampires active in bloodline affairs (keyword being most) look at new things like guns with the testy dismissiveness of entitled old people who firmly believe life was better when they were young and love to preach about "the good old days" to everyone they meet. Harkon's radically different approach to being a vampire lord coupled with his independence would grate on the nerves of most bloodlines, including his own.

    But do you think Harkon cares what other vampires, Blood Dragons, or even Abhorash would think of his life choices?



    I don't think so either. And the same is true of many vampires who aren't represented by the VCs we know and love.

    TL:DR - As important as the bloodlines are, not every vampire is beholden to them or their common traits. They're like national stereotypes in that they're handy for neatly categorizing people who share an allegiance, but with the caveat that not every Lahmian is spying for Neferata, not every Strigoi looks like ****, and not every Blood Dragon is a murderhobo.

    *Seriously. Luthor Harkon landed in Lustria in 876 IC, meaning the Vampire Coast has been around for over 1,600 years!

    For comparison, Neferata ruled Lahmia for 350 years (-1520 to -1170 IC). The Von Carsteins officially ruled Sylvania for 348 years (1797 to 2145 IC). Even Ushoran's mighty Kingdom of Strigos, the second longest-lasting vampire realm, only lasted roughly 820 years (-1020 to c.-200 IC). That's only half as long as the Vampire Coast! And all these vampire realms existed in arguably more favorable conditions than the Vampire Coast, too.

    Clearly, GW thinks medieval undead are inferior to pirate undead.
    ;)
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