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DE's cold one cavalry : probably overbuffed ?

ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
Hi everyone. After recent revelation of some stat changes for next patch I am worried about DE's Cold One cavalry. There was discussion before about DE faction overperfoming in some cases and several people mentioned that DE can be very cost-effective in cav-on-cav case. Even in current patch CoK can trade very well against other cav . And with announced buffs to them there is possibility that CoK will be too strong. I am especialy concerned about Demis because they rely primaly on combination of their insane armor and fast AP attacks to fight other cav and their base HP and MD stats are pretty mediocre. CoK with their solid AP can break through Demi's plates pretty well. I know that Charge Bonus of CoK was nerfed -> they are less effective at cycle charging now, but to be honest CoK were always about prolonged combat. I expect that classical AL shock cav ( GK,BK ) will remain more or less the same in this case because this unit deal major portion of their dmg on charge so they tend to crush most part of CoK unit before it can exploit advantage in grinding fight. But demis lack sheer shock potential of this units, they are specialized at brawling after charge so CoK could be problematic.
What do you think ?
P.S. Oh, almost forgot : TK's Necropolis Knight with halberds is also can be in troubles now.
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Comments

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    vs cav I expect their performance to be about the same since they got +8MA but -12 CB

    Vs monster yea their performance in a grind went up.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 584
    Where did you get those infos ?
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Green0 said:

    vs cav I expect their performance to be about the same since they got +8MA but -12 CB

    Vs monster yea their performance in a grind went up.

    And + 2 MD and buff for their WS as well.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477

    Green0 said:

    vs cav I expect their performance to be about the same since they got +8MA but -12 CB

    Vs monster yea their performance in a grind went up.

    And + 2 MD and buff for their WS as well.
    WS didn't get buffed.

    Don't worry though, Vamps will probably be fine, looks like they got buffed to insane tier of good. And the other factions don't matter as much :)
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    vs cav I expect their performance to be about the same since they got +8MA but -12 CB

    Vs monster yea their performance in a grind went up.

    And + 2 MD and buff for their WS as well.
    WS didn't get buffed.

    Don't worry though, Vamps will probably be fine, looks like they got buffed to insane tier of good. And the other factions don't matter as much :)
    Ehm, tell me where bad Dracula touched you yesterday ? We should call police right now.
    On serious note : I NEVER said that other factions should be nerfe to the ground. I defended GK, WW, Warlocks, DP and other units that can be problematic for VC. In this particular case I even mentioned that Empire and TK are main possible victims. If you have Twilight PTSD ( wich is pretty normal I guess ) you should cool down and think about multiple lores for top-caster factions ( idea wich I support in fact ). By the way : did I missed something and Curse of Aranheir is brokenly OP nowadays ?
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    edited October 2018
    it's about versatility mostly. Curse of Anraheir is a good spell but even better if you can bring that AND heals and not bring Lore of Beasts which has so many bad spells otherwise.

    But honestly it's not only that spell. VC got Tempest vortex for flyers. They got Purple Sun (a vortex that is slightly stronger because it sucks units in and in fact it's pretty decent vs stuff like GK for example) and Spirit Leech.

    And we didn't get to see what Lahmia and Strigoi Ghoul King/Strigoi Vampire have yet.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Green0 said:

    it's about versatility mostly. Curse of Anraheir is a good spell but even better if you can bring that AND heals and not bring Lore of Beasts which has so many bad spells otherwise.

    But honestly it's not only that spell. VC got Tempest vortex for flyers. They got Purple Sun (a vortex that is slightly stronger because it sucks units in and in fact it's pretty decent vs stuff like GK for example) and Spirit Leech.

    And we didn't get to see what Lahmia and Strigoi Ghoul King/Strigoi Vampire have yet.

    Purple Sun and Spirit leech ... I think that you dont know about good old Manny THE BALD and Vampiress with Death Lore, right ?
    I start to think that you just want to be salty. I mean you even complaine about VORTEX SPELL ( not WoM free and arealdy avaliable ). I can understand your concern about new bound ability, but that's all.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    edited October 2018

    Green0 said:

    it's about versatility mostly. Curse of Anraheir is a good spell but even better if you can bring that AND heals and not bring Lore of Beasts which has so many bad spells otherwise.

    But honestly it's not only that spell. VC got Tempest vortex for flyers. They got Purple Sun (a vortex that is slightly stronger because it sucks units in and in fact it's pretty decent vs stuff like GK for example) and Spirit Leech.

    And we didn't get to see what Lahmia and Strigoi Ghoul King/Strigoi Vampire have yet.

    Purple Sun and Spirit leech ... I think that you dont know about good old Manny THE BALD and Vampiress with Death Lore, right ?
    I start to think that you just want to be salty. I mean you even complaine about VORTEX SPELL ( not WoM free and arealdy avaliable ). I can understand your concern about new bound ability, but that's all.
    no, you don't understand, no, I'm not salty, you're just biased toward VC. And yes I know that Mannfred has Spirit Leech, but Necrarch could bring Spirit Leech AND Anraheir and a 6th spell I don't remember for example. He will probably also cost less and be fairly cheap on horse so he will likely have a niche.

    No point arguing with you man, you just can't see things from other people's perspective: it's like talking to a wall. You offend, you can't be open-minded about someone criticizing your favorite faction and you use ad hominem. Not gentlemanly behavior at all.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    it's about versatility mostly. Curse of Anraheir is a good spell but even better if you can bring that AND heals and not bring Lore of Beasts which has so many bad spells otherwise.

    But honestly it's not only that spell. VC got Tempest vortex for flyers. They got Purple Sun (a vortex that is slightly stronger because it sucks units in and in fact it's pretty decent vs stuff like GK for example) and Spirit Leech.

    And we didn't get to see what Lahmia and Strigoi Ghoul King/Strigoi Vampire have yet.

    Purple Sun and Spirit leech ... I think that you dont know about good old Manny THE BALD and Vampiress with Death Lore, right ?
    I start to think that you just want to be salty. I mean you even complaine about VORTEX SPELL ( not WoM free and arealdy avaliable ). I can understand your concern about new bound ability, but that's all.
    no, you don't understand, no, I'm not salty, you're just biased toward VC. And yes I know that Mannfred has Spirit Leech, but Necrarch could bring Spirit Leech AND Anraheir and a 6th spell I don't remember for example. He will probably also cost less and be fairly cheap on horse so he will likely have a niche.

    No point arguing with you man, you just can't see things from other people's perspective: it's like talking to a wall. You offend, you can't be open-minded about someone criticizing your favorite faction and you use ad hominem. Not gentlemanly behavior at all.
    Same words I can say to you. And I think you should know that compromise isnt meaned to be your complete victory in every discussion. If you think that my ideas/arguments/proposals/concerns are irrelevant and toxic - you are free to ignore them all. It is not like I have any special place on this forum - there are many other very interesting and different players here.
  • DeneleonDeneleon Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited October 2018
    Another thread full of fear. You gave me a good laugh.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    edited October 2018


    Ehm, tell me where bad Dracula touched you yesterday ? We should call police right now.


    If you have Twilight PTSD ( wich is pretty normal I guess ) you should cool down

    If you don't realize how these statements are toxic then probably nothing can be done to make you into a gentleman.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,052
    I like how we turned a thread about CoK into a thread about vampires.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Cukie251 said:

    I like how we turned a thread about CoK into a thread about vampires.

    I havent started this ... but I am responsible for missleading of theme as well. Sorry. Any thoughts about mentioned problem ? I think that can be interesting.
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,231
    edited October 2018
    For dark elf cold ones this is definitely a net buff, when everyone agreed they needed a nerf. Did they at least get a cost increase or something? What else did they do, buff malekith, morathi, and slaanesh's harvesters?

    For lizardmen cold ones this is an overall nerf imo due to the addition of rampage, and they probably still have worse stats than the dark elf ones even though they were previously paying for those low stats by not having rampage.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,738
    I hope they nerf Dark elves in other area....
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157
    It seems like a decent nerf than a buff actually. -12 CB is very big.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,378
    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,601
    Assuming their WS went up and their MA went up by +8, then this could most certainly be considered a buff. They aren't exactly a cav renowned for being used to cycle charge, so having more competitive sustained melee stats seems like a pretty solid way to go.
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157
    Wyvern2 said:

    Assuming their WS went up and their MA went up by +8, then this could most certainly be considered a buff. They aren't exactly a cav renowned for being used to cycle charge, so having more competitive sustained melee stats seems like a pretty solid way to go.

    I hope their WS did not go up by +8, coz yes that would be too good.
  • BlissBliss Registered Users Posts: 578
    yst said:

    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff

    Because for CoK, MA is a much more valuable stat than CB, because of rampage.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157
    Bliss said:

    yst said:

    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff

    Because for CoK, MA is a much more valuable stat than CB, because of rampage.
    Its not since CB gives MA and if you can cycle CB is better.
  • TheSaltySeagullsTheSaltySeagulls Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 184

    Bliss said:

    yst said:

    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff

    Because for CoK, MA is a much more valuable stat than CB, because of rampage.
    Its not since CB gives MA and if you can cycle CB is better.
    But the thing is that with rampage your ability to cycle charge at will is not guaranteed late game. So wouldn't raw melee stats that will be there regardless be better than stats that are contingent on you charging which you may not be able to do once the battle gets underway and rampage kicks in?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,157

    Bliss said:

    yst said:

    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff

    Because for CoK, MA is a much more valuable stat than CB, because of rampage.
    Its not since CB gives MA and if you can cycle CB is better.
    But the thing is that with rampage your ability to cycle charge at will is not guaranteed late game. So wouldn't raw melee stats that will be there regardless be better than stats that are contingent on you charging which you may not be able to do once the battle gets underway and rampage kicks in?
    Only if you cant avoid the rampage, problem with better stats on rampage is that they wont help u if your oppoennts walks in halberds anyway.

    I would rather the CB than those stats in 100% of match-ups.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    Bliss said:

    yst said:

    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff

    Because for CoK, MA is a much more valuable stat than CB, because of rampage.
    CB also gives a bonus to WS, let's not forget that. Also, they got +8 MA but -12 CB, to me this is a net nerf, they will perform worse vs cavalry by having a much weaker charge, a lot of HP in cav v cav is lost in the first 10-15s so having -12 to your WS is a pretty big deal.

    They will be slightly better in a grind vs monsters like Carnosaurs or Kholek.
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • TheSaltySeagullsTheSaltySeagulls Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 184
    edited October 2018

    Bliss said:

    yst said:

    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff

    Because for CoK, MA is a much more valuable stat than CB, because of rampage.
    Its not since CB gives MA and if you can cycle CB is better.
    But the thing is that with rampage your ability to cycle charge at will is not guaranteed late game. So wouldn't raw melee stats that will be there regardless be better than stats that are contingent on you charging which you may not be able to do once the battle gets underway and rampage kicks in?
    Only if you cant avoid the rampage, problem with better stats on rampage is that they wont help u if your oppoennts walks in halberds anyway.

    I would rather the CB than those stats in 100% of match-ups.
    But if your unit rampages and your opponent walks in halberds CB would do even less then flat MA in that case. I mean yeah your dead in both cases but the flat MA would be clearly better in that scenario. And in the cases where your opponent cant capitalize on the rampage and your cav is just in a melee slug out with random infantry then its definitely better.

    I am also not sure exactly how you avoid the rampage as DE aside from just not taking damage. You have limited healing to stave off the rampage and also lack the new cold blood to remove it so if your opponet focuses your cav with magic or any other ranged damage it seems very likely that the rampage goes off at some point.

    It just seems at face value on a unit you wont always be able to micro that just a flat increase to melee stats would provide more mileage than CB would. In a perfect scenario where you cav never takes enough damage to go into rampage and you are able to freely cycle charge then yes clearly the CB is better, but I am not sure that will happen often enough to be better overall then just having better melee stats so they perform better when the inevitable rampage comes.

    And just to clarify this is my laymen opinion as I do not play DE as much as I should so there is of course the possibility I am just not understanding the army and its playstyle.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,052
    It also hits their performance vs infantry. Their cycle charge will be weaker and thus they will be less effective vs more general targets.
  • DeneleonDeneleon Registered Users Posts: 17
    Green0 said:

    Bliss said:

    yst said:

    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff

    Because for CoK, MA is a much more valuable stat than CB, because of rampage.
    CB also gives a bonus to WS, let's not forget that. Also, they got +8 MA but -12 CB, to me this is a net nerf, they will perform worse vs cavalry by having a much weaker charge, a lot of HP in cav v cav is lost in the first 10-15s so having -12 to your WS is a pretty big deal.

    They will be slightly better in a grind vs monsters like Carnosaurs or Kholek.
    U don't throw CoK vs cavalry just like that. Learn to use DE roster.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,477
    edited October 2018
    Deneleon said:

    Green0 said:

    Bliss said:

    yst said:

    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff

    Because for CoK, MA is a much more valuable stat than CB, because of rampage.
    CB also gives a bonus to WS, let's not forget that. Also, they got +8 MA but -12 CB, to me this is a net nerf, they will perform worse vs cavalry by having a much weaker charge, a lot of HP in cav v cav is lost in the first 10-15s so having -12 to your WS is a pretty big deal.

    They will be slightly better in a grind vs monsters like Carnosaurs or Kholek.
    U don't throw CoK vs cavalry just like that. Learn to use DE roster.
    Enlighten me on how I should use them with your superior knowledge of DE roster then? They have AP and AL, in the current patch they have decent charge bonus. Isn't their ideal target an armored cavalry unit?
    mightygloin_fan_1
  • DeneleonDeneleon Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited October 2018
    Green0 said:

    Deneleon said:

    Green0 said:

    Bliss said:

    yst said:

    12 charge is massive, how could this even be regarded as a buff

    Because for CoK, MA is a much more valuable stat than CB, because of rampage.
    CB also gives a bonus to WS, let's not forget that. Also, they got +8 MA but -12 CB, to me this is a net nerf, they will perform worse vs cavalry by having a much weaker charge, a lot of HP in cav v cav is lost in the first 10-15s so having -12 to your WS is a pretty big deal.

    They will be slightly better in a grind vs monsters like Carnosaurs or Kholek.
    U don't throw CoK vs cavalry just like that. Learn to use DE roster.
    Enlighten me on how I should use them with your superior knowledge of DE roster then? They have AP and AL, in the current patch they have decent charge bonus. Isn't their ideal target an armored cavalry unit?
    First shoot with AP missiles enemy cavalry, once weakened then charge. Even better when they charged your melee troops. You keep your cavalry protected as DE. Have an escort of Xbows dark riders maybe. They are to finish off armoured troops not to tie them up.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,231
    So how is more MA and MD with less charge bonus considered a buff for lizardmen but a nerf for dark elves? Seems like the opposite to me since cold one spears got rampage as well.
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