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Why Were Skaven So Badly Designed?

ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 28,396
In light of the VCoast getting a mechanic that Skaven should have had from the beginning (subversion of settlements), I gotta' ask, why did CA design the Skaven so shoddily?


1.They alone have a mechanic that mostly limits their expansion and army creation, food. The spammiest, most wide-spread race in the Warhammer world is actively stopped from doing what it does. Elves, who SHOULD have such a limitation, are free to conquer the world and spam armies as much as they want. BS!

It's infuriating me that the subversion mechanic would have synergized perfectly to the food limitation, since instead of capturing settlements and paying food for their upkeep, you'd undermine them instead and so get an alternate way of expanding.

It's even more anger-inducing when you consider that Skaven make money by spreading wide since theirs is dependent on the amount of buildings they have, so they got even more limitations put on them


2.Skaven have the same supply lines penalty as everyone else, meaning they have to go tall and build all-elite armies and playing them like Skaven, with lots of chaff and meatshields, is punished by the game. BS!


3.Skaven replenish slower because of their large unit sizes. Again, if you play Skaven like Skaven, by feeding your meatshields into the grinder, you are punished by the game mechanics. Elves with their smaller unit sizes replenish lightning fast and can replenish after every battle too. THE HELL? Elves should feel the loss of every single member of their race. Instead they can spam better than the ratmen. BS!


4.Skaven have hideously complicated synergy requirements when it comes to recruitment. You are forced into certain building trees just to get your mediocre "elite" Stormvermin. This greatly limits army variety and settlement design. Elves have zero synergy requirements, they can build any unit as soon as they get its building. Why? If anyrthing Elves, with their intrigant societies should have more roadblocks to recruiting units

In conclusion, CA designed Skaven as the total opposite of how they should be, in fact, CA gave them mechanics that should have been on the Elf factions instead since they're the dying races in perpetuatl decline, NOT THE SKAVEN!

Fix it, CA!

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Comments

  • MooncakeMooncake Registered Users Posts: 607

    First of all I read all of that and I’d like to say you’re right on every point.

    That said, my biggest issue with the skaven is their high pitched and annoying speaking voices. This is cartoonish and needs to be fixed!

    Is this post serious? Or is this some kind of irony that I don't understand?
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,954
    Badly designed is to hyperbolic.

    But I agree with the points OP makes. And I think CA will tweak skaven. They and greenskins will get the new VCs free chaff solution perhaps.

    Also supply lines and all elite armies is an issue for the game as a whole. Empire armies should not be all demis and steamtanks. Some kind of limit option for both AI and player would be awesome.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,954
    Not only.for lore would limits be great but for gameplay.

    So many units are obselete 50 turns into a campaign (nothing in ME) which is such a shame both for how the battles play out and for all those cool units not being used
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • PrayPray Registered Users Posts: 1,475
    WHY WERE SKAVEN , EMPIRE , BEASTMEN , WOOD ELF , CHAOS SO BADLY DESIGNED
  • TotalWar78TotalWar78 Registered Users Posts: 377
    Two things are a must. Under empire mechanics and some sort of Council 13 mechanics as well. And if its possible, special units for each of great clans which can be sold to other clans for a good price.
  • DukeusDukeus Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 164
    Imo the new pirate Cove mechanic makes a lot of sense for a horde faction not so much for building up an empire.
  • GwydionGwydion Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,230
    I agree op!
    PLEASE CA!!! Chaos Warriors need a faction that is not horde only by the time the trilogy is finished! We beg of you!

    Just Realized this topic has been viewed more, the topic of " Limiting Race Expansion/ Colonization Expansion" alone than more than half of the stickied things at the top of the forum... I hope you are too CA and I mean that in a positive way from a huge fan!

    Please improve sieges! Add racial flavor and ACTUALLY make them "deeper rather than wide" copy and paste with different art needs to go!
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,929
    edited November 2018
    There was an enormous thread on supply lines punishing non-elite factions like Skaven, Vampire Counts, Greenskins etc more than elite races.

    Don't know why you're hating on food though. Food is great.

    Elves replenishing so fast is an elf problem not a skaven one.
  • JowenJowen Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 391
    edited November 2018
    These compulsory "Newly introduced faction got great game mechanic 'X'; old faction 'Y' should have it as well"-threads are getting predictable and boring.

    Naturally, CA ignores most of them.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    I agree on upkeep penalty, not on the rest. your post is more of a testament of how "badly" designed HE are, not the opposite. many factions have cross building requirement and mechanics that can hinder them (dwarfs & bretonnia) , while adding some lore taste. He (and DE) numbers should be a limitation, but their only real issue is the 0 influence bad traits on some units.

    Skaven require juggling your food (and when available it allows for neat stuff such as instant leveled cities), their public order through + and- skaven corruption buildings. HE only issue in the early game are the weird 4 tiered PO chain + some "orphan" buildings such as the embassy. This makes skaven certainly more difficult, though Skrolk campaign is kinda an easy mode compared to the 2 others. In general it's true TW2 build chains have been simplified, but I feel it was more a buff for the AI than anything. With the new slots in capitals, things have been even more simplified and you often build stuff in 2-3 examplars already.

    Maybe the coves will lead to something similar with skavens, but a counter measure better be added beforehand. I feel the thing was Skavens were not designed as an OW addition (in which case the under empire element would have been proeminent I guess) but as their own occupation force in southlands and lustria. It's true the warhammer lore doesn't make it easy to translate this in TW terms, the same way, Beastmen, Daemons are (armies that just appear and strike, without real territory)

  • WhatacruelchoiceWhatacruelchoice Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 26
    I don't understand why you'd get angry about this. Clearly they've developed a new mechanic for the vampirates which didn't exist when skaven were developed.

    I'd take issue with the interlocking building for high tier units though, skaven are a tech faction in a fantasy world. Gatling guns flame throwers and grenades should require a lot of infrastructure investment. Skaven have to build tall in the capital even if they are minimal investment elsewhere.
  • DracoknightDracoknight Registered Users Posts: 281
    Jowen said:

    These compulsory "Newly introduced faction got great game mechanic 'X'; old faction 'Y' should have it as well"-threads are getting predictable and boring.

    Naturally, CA ignores most of them.

    Well... they totally ignored giving dwarves a crafting system too havent they? I mean they would never go back and revise a previous faction like that on a whim no? ( Vampires and Bretonnia ), well we might aswell give up and stop suggesting what we want out of this game, i mean we would never have bloodlines or minor factions in this game as CA is too busy making other games for time periods nobody asked for.

    [Disclaimer: Dangerous amounts of sarcasm]
  • doclumbagodoclumbago Registered Users Posts: 1,784
    edited November 2018
    I have handled Campaigns with almost constant Negative Food.
    Build that dang tower, build those Walls, then you should be save.

    Also, get to the Old World ASAP, that´s where the Food Buildings are
    Max out all settlements to maximum income, then put them in food creation mode.


    Yes getting some kind of Skaven Cove for food or moneytary income would be good.
    Also getting rid of the supply lines mechanic and/or making Slaves zero upkeep could make the faction more swarmy
    there is always room for improvement.
    Post edited by Canuovea on
  • FabiFabi Registered Users Posts: 191
    edited November 2018

    I have handled Campaigns with almost constant Negative Food.
    Build that dang tower, build those Walls, then you should be save.

    Also, get to the Old World ASAP, that´s where the Food Buildings are
    Max out all settlements to maximum income, then put them in food creation mode.


    Yes getting some kind of Skaven Cove for food or moneytary income would be good.
    Also getting rid of the supply lines mechanic and/or making Slaves zero upkeep could make the faction more swarmy
    there is always room for improvement.

    You shouldnt have to play such a restricted campaign as the Skaven. Sure there is always a way to succeed but you have to ask yourself if it truly feels like a skaven campaign should.
    Post edited by Canuovea on
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,929
    Fabi said:

    I have handled Campaigns with almost constant Negative Food.
    Build that dang tower, build those Walls, then you should be save.

    Also, get your ass to the Old World ASAP, that´s where the Food Buildings are
    Max out all settlements to maximum income, then put them in food creation mode.


    Yes getting some kind of Skaven Cove for food or moneytary income would be good.
    Also getting rid of the supply lines mechanic and/or making Slaves zero upkeep could make the faction more swarmy
    there is always room for improvement.

    You shouldnt have to play such a restricted campaign as the Skaven. Sure there is always a way to succeed but you have to ask yourself if it truly feels like a skaven campaign should.
    Food feels good. I wish more races had mechanics like it.

    Supply lines is the problem that prevents it from feeling like a Skaven campaign should. Elite races should suffer the current penalties not non-elite races like Skaven and Vampire Counts.
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 6,021
    Jowen said:

    These compulsory "Newly introduced faction got great game mechanic 'X'; old faction 'Y' should have it as well"-threads are getting predictable and boring.

    Naturally, CA ignores most of them.

    It's almost like you don't want the game to improve.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 22,938
    Remember how you for months defended the food system? You loved it. It's a little funny to see you turn 180 and now attack it.

    As for the unit replenishment you said that a few months ago remember? Turns out you simply misunderstood how replenishment works. Replenishment is based on %, it's not a fixed number. Remember? This was all explained in that thread.

    As for 2 and 4, yeah, fair nuff yo.
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 9,439
    They do seem a little lacklustre. Hopefully there’ll be at least a fun new lord with some fresh takes on the race mechanics once the lord pack arrives.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • tyrannustyrannus Registered Users Posts: 1,084
    edited November 2018
    I guess because they just failed at designing them? They obviously really like skaven, and wanted to make great campaign experience, but the mechanics just didn't click in the end. Also i don't really get this DUH U AGAIN WANT CAMPAIGN MECHANICS FROM OTHER FACTION. Tell me, are vampire pirates famous for establishing secret bases all around the world? Nope? Yeah, that's because skaven do this, and this mechanic fits them much more than vampire coast. I also dislike those whiskers that they put on almost every unit.

    Believe in humanity!
  • John_KimbleJohn_Kimble Registered Users Posts: 786
    edited November 2018
    So i'm 250+ turns into a very fun ME Clan Mors campaign, and while I agree on some things, i mostly disagree with the rest.

    Honestly, i like Food. I've never had any shortage in the Old World, im currently drowning in food. It allows me to expand extremely fast. I'm getting instant lvl 5 and lvl 3 settlements all the time and i'm taking over the old world like crazy (thank you Chaos who's wrecking the Empire though...). Feels very Skaven-like i'll say.

    I see no problems in regards to building requirements for certain units. They make sense to me, both lorewise and gameplay wise. Basically every other race in the game has similar requirements. If they don't it's their design problem (HE's) not the rest. If we should whine about units requirements, then it' should be about the greenskins...

    Supply lines i can agree with. I think the problem is a combination between supply lines being way to restrictive to "swarm" factions and the fact that there are no unit caps at all, meaning that most of the low-mid tier units will be used exclusively for the first 50 turns max and will then be forgotten for ever.

    I wish CA added a rare/special unit cap, as i'll admit, it does get kind of old having to fight elite stacks with your same elite stack all the time. And it's also challenging with Skaven, since you have the same supply lines and Skaven elite stacks are simply weaker compared to the rest (you essentially depend on assaulting armies with heroes, ambushing and artillery).

    Either way, between your Plague priest and your Menace from Below, you can basically have an armies' worth of summons. It really feels like you're swarming the army you're fighting from every side.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    Thing is all tech units require other buildings, save for the HE, whose elite units are more a question of "caste". Empire, Bretonnia, dwarfs, Vampires, etc require smithy and stuff to unlock armored troops.

    I do agree that CA should once and for all split the upkeep system between "swarm" and "organised" factions. Swarms shouldn't have this penalty while not being as good economically. The system makes sense for real nations such as the Empire and HE. The only issue is lords spamming, but if lors without good army would work as intended (ahem, "loyalty") the whole thing would make a lot of sense : you can spam lords but beware...

  • TotalBorehammerTotalBorehammer Registered Users Posts: 941
    edited November 2018

    In light of the VCoast getting a mechanic that Skaven should have had from the beginning (subversion of settlements), I gotta' ask, why did CA design the Skaven so shoddily?


    1.They alone have a mechanic that mostly limits their expansion and army creation, food. The spammiest, most wide-spread race in the Warhammer world is actively stopped from doing what it does. Elves, who SHOULD have such a limitation, are free to conquer the world and spam armies as much as they want. BS!

    It's infuriating me that the subversion mechanic would have synergized perfectly to the food limitation, since instead of capturing settlements and paying food for their upkeep, you'd undermine them instead and so get an alternate way of expanding.

    It's even more anger-inducing when you consider that Skaven make money by spreading wide since theirs is dependent on the amount of buildings they have, so they got even more limitations put on them


    2.Skaven have the same supply lines penalty as everyone else, meaning they have to go tall and build all-elite armies and playing them like Skaven, with lots of chaff and meatshields, is punished by the game. BS!


    3.Skaven replenish slower because of their large unit sizes. Again, if you play Skaven like Skaven, by feeding your meatshields into the grinder, you are punished by the game mechanics. Elves with their smaller unit sizes replenish lightning fast and can replenish after every battle too. THE HELL? Elves should feel the loss of every single member of their race. Instead they can spam better than the ratmen. BS!


    4.Skaven have hideously complicated synergy requirements when it comes to recruitment. You are forced into certain building trees just to get your mediocre "elite" Stormvermin. This greatly limits army variety and settlement design. Elves have zero synergy requirements, they can build any unit as soon as they get its building. Why? If anyrthing Elves, with their intrigant societies should have more roadblocks to recruiting units

    In conclusion, CA designed Skaven as the total opposite of how they should be, in fact, CA gave them mechanics that should have been on the Elf factions instead since they're the dying races in perpetuatl decline, NOT THE SKAVEN!

    Fix it, CA!

    One of the truest posts I have ever read on the forum and I agree wholeheartedly.

    The disparity in balance between some races is nothing short of staggering... Elves are grossly overpowered in campaign when played by a person and Skaven play nothing like they should.

    CA messed up royally in this regard.
    CA have a Facebook page... use the comments section of their posts and express your thoughts on ME poor quality/delays etc https://www.facebook.com/CreativeAssembly/ :)
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 9,439
    Once you get the ball rolling I feel you can have plenty of Skaven armies. If I don’t remember incorrectly I had at least 21 high end armies at one point in my Queek campaign.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • Pr4vdaPr4vda Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,223
    The "cove" system would make a perfect system for the "under empire", for sure.

    But it should have some tweaks, and work differently. After all, Skaven are under cities not to take money, but :

    1/ to gather informations about the world above them
    2/ prepare potential invasions of such cities

    So, you could choose to create some buildings in order to "spy" and improve skaven influence, or buildings in order to help you to take control of an "above world" city. Like a garrison you could use when you attack the city with a standard army. And that garrison could come from inside the city. It would be awesome !
    Team Dawis

    Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Registered Users Posts: 3,477
    How would you balance sheer numbers factions like Skaven, Vampire Counts and such against lesser numbers factions within the total war system if this was to be corrected?
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,183
    edited November 2018
    Yes the Skaven can give the Wood Elves a run for their money in terms of 'Gameplay and Story Segregation', the Wood Elves a Lore-Wise most Isolationist Faction was turned into one of the most Expansionist Factions Gameplay-Wise, especially before the Updates that make them less Expansionists, the Skaven are the other way around, one of the most Expansionist Factions Lore-Wise, are pushed to be one of the less Expansionist Factions Gameplay-Wise, thanks to the Skaven Mechanics in Total War, but as for 'Supply Lines', it's a problematic Mechanic that limits most Factions in Total War, and push most Factions in Total War: Warhammer Trilogy to spam a Elite Only Armies.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TotalWarWarhammerTheWoodElves

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TotalWarWarhammerTheSkaven
  • PoorManatee6197PoorManatee6197 Registered Users Posts: 963
    Amonkhet said:

    How would you balance sheer numbers factions like Skaven, Vampire Counts and such against lesser numbers factions within the total war system if this was to be corrected?

    Increasing the stats of the low number factions, so one elven spearmen counts as 20 clan rats, for example.
    #MakeDwarfsGreatAgain Josef Bugman, Thorek Ironbrow, Alrik Ranulfsson, Grimm Burloksson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Byrrnoth Grundadrakk, Malakai Makaisson, Gotrek Gurnisson, Garagrim, Dragon slayer, Deamon slayer, Doomseekers, Brotherhood of Grimnir, Giant slayers, Thunderbarge, Shieldbearer mount, Master brewer, Goblin Hewer, Norse dwarf war mammoth, Tractator engine, Rune golem, Shard dragon, proper Anvil of Doom, Ulther's dragon company, Lond Drong's slayer pirates, Everguard, Karak Varn, Karag Agrilwutraz, Silver Pinacle, Karag Dum, Karak Vlag, Kraka Dorden, Kraka Ornsmotek, Kraka Ravnsvake, Karak Vrag, Karak Azorn, Karak Krakaten.


    All those missing things are grudges in the great book, is in your hand to settle them, CA. Khazukan kazakit-ha!
  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 6,021
    Amonkhet said:

    How would you balance sheer numbers factions like Skaven, Vampire Counts and such against lesser numbers factions within the total war system if this was to be corrected?

    Uhm... Persians against Spartans? It's not rocket science.
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