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My 2 concerns with Vampire Coast

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  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,581
    Pocman said:

    That's like saying Handgunners should be cheaper because they have crap melee stats, it's simply not relevant.

    Handgunners have the melee stats they deserve at their cost. It is relevant. Bump their stats, and they would be more expensive (for example, thunderers, while dealing less ranged damage and having less hp due to lower model count, cost 100 more than handgunners because they have better melee stats -and a shield-, which makes them harder to remove from the field, which give you more time to support them before they are wiped).

    Yes, but thunderers are slow and they don't fly...
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,259
    why do they summon 120 armour crabs and zombies that can actually do damage...those crabs are impossible to break through or kill, how are they different to a net? they stop movement and last much much longer and can even be controlled, i really dislike their design, that summon is way too strong.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,520
    Thats just bull and everyone knows it. If thats true all missiles wouldve -$200 or significantly cheaper with 0 att 0 def 0 str just because they dont “use it”. And units like lothern seaguard would cease to exist. Before patch sisters barely just a starfire that costs almost double

    Of coz u pay for the stats, suggesting otherwise is pure nonsense. Whether u choose to use or not is a dif story.
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  • TlaxtlanSoothsayerTlaxtlanSoothsayer Registered Users Posts: 2,710
    edited November 2018
    The Denizens of the Deep spell is simply too cheap. It has a short cooldown, too.

    When you pick Cylostra and a Vampire Fleet captain, you can summon 2 monstrous infantry units, 1 cavalry unit and several Zombie Pirates within the first minutes of the engagement. Especially the summoned Rotting Prometheans are difficult to deal with for certain factions.


    For comparison:
    • Command of the Unliving summons Crypt Horror 800 gold unit for 16 WoM with a 57 cooldown
    • Transformation of Kadon summons a Mancticore 800 gold for 14 WoM with a 45 second cooldown.
    • Savage Dominion summona a 1600 unit for 26 WoM with a 48 seconds cooldown.
    • Drowned Dead summons a 300 gold Zombie for 5 WoM and has a 41 seconds cooldown.

    While Denizens of the Deep summons
    • a heavily armoured monstrous infantry unit for 1100 bucks, it costs 13 WoM and has a cooldown of only 39 seconds.

    Of course the Command of the Unliving might be a bit overpriced. Most likely it's sometimes better to summon several units of Zombies instead of 1 crab monstrous infantry. But in the end it's quite obvious that Denizens of the Deep outperforms other summoning spells.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,259
    edited November 2018
    From the above it seems like it should be about 20 or 21WOM and about 50s cooldown, it would be much more appropriate, i didn't even realise it was only 13WOM wow just wow.

    And going with the above you can basically take an all ranged army with few zombies to hold units while you actually summon quite decent units straight away.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,011

    From the above it seems like it should be about 20 or 21WOM and about 50s cooldown, it would be much more appropriate, i didn't even realise it was only 13WOM wow just wow.

    And going with the above you can basically take an all ranged army with few zombies to hold units while you actually summon quite decent units straight away.

    Ehhhh - Rotting Prometheans are great roadblocks but not actually all that fantastic at fighting things. Crypt Horrors do a bunch more damage and also have poison. 20 WOM would be too much - 16-18 sounds reasonable?

    More importantly, though, I'm not at all convinced that the VP are overpowered right now even with their current summons. If you want to use them all you've got to spend a *hell* of lot on spellcasters, and doing so prevents you from using any other magic - and, of course, the VP backline is incredibly squishy and needs a ton of blockers to function at all. Let's give it a couple weeks to shake out the meta before we start calling for significant changes.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 2,180
    edited November 2018

    Crypt Horrors do a bunch more damage and also have poison.

    You actually wrong. Crypt horrors deal less damage than Rotting Prometheans. Prometheans have higher WS, higher MA, higher MD. Most important difference are 120 armor
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,011
    tank3487 said:

    Crypt Horrors do a bunch more damage and also have poison.

    You actually wrong. Crypt horrors deal less damage than Rotting Prometheans. Prometheans have higher WS, higher MA, higher MD. Most important difference are 120 armor
    Rotting Prometheans have 3 fewer models, meaning they do less damage by virtue of getting fewer attacks. Same reason Stormvermin do a lot more damage than it looks like based on their stats, they get to gang up on the enemy 2 to 1 most of the time.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,435
    Anecdotal experience, from a fairly average players perspective, the Vcoast are fairly good. I main dark elves (did you guess) and have lost one game against them out of about 5. So, I'd hazard a guess they're not stronger than dark elves. My build imo is pretty good tho, spit might have something to do with my build than the power of the factions.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799

    The Denizens of the Deep spell is simply too cheap. It has a short cooldown, too.

    When you pick Cylostra and a Vampire Fleet captain, you can summon 2 monstrous infantry units, 1 cavalry unit and several Zombie Pirates within the first minutes of the engagement. Especially the summoned Rotting Prometheans are difficult to deal with for certain factions.


    For comparison:

    • Command of the Unliving summons Crypt Horror 800 gold unit for 16 WoM with a 57 cooldown
    • Transformation of Kadon summons a Mancticore 800 gold for 14 WoM with a 45 second cooldown.
    • Savage Dominion summona a 1600 unit for 26 WoM with a 48 seconds cooldown.
    • Drowned Dead summons a 300 gold Zombie for 5 WoM and has a 41 seconds cooldown.

    While Denizens of the Deep summons
    • a heavily armoured monstrous infantry unit for 1100 bucks, it costs 13 WoM and has a cooldown of only 39 seconds.

    Of course the Command of the Unliving might be a bit overpriced. Most likely it's sometimes better to summon several units of Zombies instead of 1 crab monstrous infantry. But in the end it's quite obvious that Denizens of the Deep outperforms other summoning spells.
    While I may agree that it may need 1-2 WoM or/and bigger cooldown (cooldowns, lol), I also want to point that such type of comparison has issues without testing degrading speed and without taking into account integration of this spell/lore need for this lore to present something for specific race.

    Crypt Ghouls/Crypt Horrors are ok for their price, because they have slow degrading speeds. Issues I see with this spell is that Counts need Zombie spam more, rather than damage dealers/sturdier support. Plus I think Strigoi/Crypt Horrors have issues on their own.

    Can't tell much about Manticore, since common spell and it has Rampage, but it's quite survivable and handy for most races I remember have it.

    Didn't test Dominion, since no Beastmen DLC.

    If to add more info:

    Raise Dead (pre-Coast):
    7 charges, 24 sec cooldown
    - Zombies 150g); 3 WoM; Living time 3:08 (188 sec); Degrading approximate speed ~ 40HP/sec
    - Skeleton Warriors (300g); 4 WoM; Living time 1:38 (98 sec); Das ~ 60HP/sec

    Command of the Unliving (current testing):
    2 charges, 57 sec cooldown
    - Crypt Horrors (800g); 16 WoM; Living time: 4:44 (284 sec), Das ~ 24HP/sec (not sure about Das)

    Transformation of Kadon (current testing):
    2 charges, 45 sec CD
    - Manticore (800g); 14 WoM; Living time: 5:17 (317 sec); Das ~12HP/sec (not sure about Das)

    Transformation of Kadon (Vampire Counts)
    2 charges; 45 sec CD
    - Varghulf (1400g); 21 WoM; Living time: 2:40 (160 sec); Das ~33HP/sec

    Drowned Dead:
    4 charges; 41 sec CD
    - Deckhands Mob (300g); 6 WoM; Living time - 3:42 (222 sec); Das ~36HP/sec
    - Gunnery Mob (300g); 8 WoM; Living time - 2:50 (170 sec); Das ~36HP/sec

    Denizens of the Deep:
    2 Charges; 39 sec CD
    - Rotten Prometheans (1100g); 13 WoM; Living time - 2:38 sec (158 sec); Das ~36HP/sec


    I lost pre-Coast info, so I did retest some stuff, unfortunately too tired already, so my bad - no Ghouls/GG/Wight King.

    So as we can see their average living time is quite bad (worse only for Varghulf/Skeleton Warriors) and if we take into account
    - that it's Unique Lore, so it should be good for Race that has it (and should have good synergy with this race)
    - that Coast still somehow binded to LoV, even though they have more HP on average, than even Counts;
    - that this unit is quite needed to deal with some issues
    Their price not that far from what it should be in this case.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,520
    ^ Well done! Good xtra info to decipher why they r what they are at the moment, definitely in line. Nothing impressive on a faction with mobility worse than dwf.
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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,259

    The Denizens of the Deep spell is simply too cheap. It has a short cooldown, too.

    When you pick Cylostra and a Vampire Fleet captain, you can summon 2 monstrous infantry units, 1 cavalry unit and several Zombie Pirates within the first minutes of the engagement. Especially the summoned Rotting Prometheans are difficult to deal with for certain factions.


    For comparison:

    • Command of the Unliving summons Crypt Horror 800 gold unit for 16 WoM with a 57 cooldown
    • Transformation of Kadon summons a Mancticore 800 gold for 14 WoM with a 45 second cooldown.
    • Savage Dominion summona a 1600 unit for 26 WoM with a 48 seconds cooldown.
    • Drowned Dead summons a 300 gold Zombie for 5 WoM and has a 41 seconds cooldown.

    While Denizens of the Deep summons
    • a heavily armoured monstrous infantry unit for 1100 bucks, it costs 13 WoM and has a cooldown of only 39 seconds.

    Of course the Command of the Unliving might be a bit overpriced. Most likely it's sometimes better to summon several units of Zombies instead of 1 crab monstrous infantry. But in the end it's quite obvious that Denizens of the Deep outperforms other summoning spells.
    While I may agree that it may need 1-2 WoM or/and bigger cooldown (cooldowns, lol), I also want to point that such type of comparison has issues without testing degrading speed and without taking into account integration of this spell/lore need for this lore to present something for specific race.

    Crypt Ghouls/Crypt Horrors are ok for their price, because they have slow degrading speeds. Issues I see with this spell is that Counts need Zombie spam more, rather than damage dealers/sturdier support. Plus I think Strigoi/Crypt Horrors have issues on their own.

    Can't tell much about Manticore, since common spell and it has Rampage, but it's quite survivable and handy for most races I remember have it.

    Didn't test Dominion, since no Beastmen DLC.

    If to add more info:

    Raise Dead (pre-Coast):
    7 charges, 24 sec cooldown
    - Zombies 150g); 3 WoM; Living time 3:08 (188 sec); Degrading approximate speed ~ 40HP/sec
    - Skeleton Warriors (300g); 4 WoM; Living time 1:38 (98 sec); Das ~ 60HP/sec

    Command of the Unliving (current testing):
    2 charges, 57 sec cooldown
    - Crypt Horrors (800g); 16 WoM; Living time: 4:44 (284 sec), Das ~ 24HP/sec (not sure about Das)

    Transformation of Kadon (current testing):
    2 charges, 45 sec CD
    - Manticore (800g); 14 WoM; Living time: 5:17 (317 sec); Das ~12HP/sec (not sure about Das)

    Transformation of Kadon (Vampire Counts)
    2 charges; 45 sec CD
    - Varghulf (1400g); 21 WoM; Living time: 2:40 (160 sec); Das ~33HP/sec

    Drowned Dead:
    4 charges; 41 sec CD
    - Deckhands Mob (300g); 6 WoM; Living time - 3:42 (222 sec); Das ~36HP/sec
    - Gunnery Mob (300g); 8 WoM; Living time - 2:50 (170 sec); Das ~36HP/sec

    Denizens of the Deep:
    2 Charges; 39 sec CD
    - Rotten Prometheans (1100g); 13 WoM; Living time - 2:38 sec (158 sec); Das ~36HP/sec


    I lost pre-Coast info, so I did retest some stuff, unfortunately too tired already, so my bad - no Ghouls/GG/Wight King.

    So as we can see their average living time is quite bad (worse only for Varghulf/Skeleton Warriors) and if we take into account
    - that it's Unique Lore, so it should be good for Race that has it (and should have good synergy with this race)
    - that Coast still somehow binded to LoV, even though they have more HP on average, than even Counts;
    - that this unit is quite needed to deal with some issues
    Their price not that far from what it should be in this case.
    Crypt Horror unit comes with regeneration hence it last longer its part of the unit trait.

    NO matter how you look at it its a 1100g unit it should cost much more WOM to summon than a 800g Unit, and i would argue that being tanky and taking less damage is far more important in VP roster than doing damage with the summon, because it allows your missile units to shoot at their targets longer, if they had no missile units i would argue in the opposite direction.

    I think 20WOM is very reasonable cost for that unit, there is no way it should cost less than horrors that doesn't make sense since you summon a unit that costs 300g more.

    Deckhand mob deregen being changed to same as skeletons would make them more balanced also.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 8,520
    Yes yes, lets ruin another faction. 20 mana lol despite solid numbers showing thats foolish.

    I dont mind deckhand being 98s with -3 mana costs, afterall ure only nerfing it by 60%
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  • DracoknightDracoknight Registered Users Posts: 281
    So tell me what is the average lifetime of the rotting prometeans in combat?
    Have you any clue how powerful a 100+ armor summon is? Damage is IRRELEVANT when it comes to a gun faction where you have a on-demand movement blocker that doesnt go away topped with cheap healing alternatives to boot.

    While we are at it could someone pull up the other summons spells across the entire board? I mean we still have the Skaven summons of Plague Monks, Clanrats and Stormvermin and you forget you also have the fat lady that summons knights in addition so its not like a gun faction such as ZP would need even more summons.

    So whats left is Empire that have to choose between healing or nets, and Dwarfs, and neither of these have the option to summon chaff that lasts longer than the net or slowing abilities allocated to them.
  • TlaxtlanSoothsayerTlaxtlanSoothsayer Registered Users Posts: 2,710
    edited November 2018
    @Elder_Moloch Yes, agreed, the damage over time is an important value to take into account, too. For example Skeleton Warrior summons always degraded quicker than Zombies, to balance the fact that they're dirt cheap (in terms of Winds of Magic cost). The Manticore summon got a buff and degrades slower than before. And so on and so forth.


    Back on the topic of the Denizens of the Deep:
    Even when you look at unbinding rate, this spell is considerably more cost efficient than most other spells. For 13 Winds of Magic the spell is a bargain.

    But Lore of the Deeps needs to compete with Lore of the Vampires, most of the time you will use both lores at the same time. If the summoned Rotting Prometheans become too expensive, then people are just going to use other spells instead.

    In my opinion a small cost increase might be a good idea though. As others have pointed out a 120 armour unit is nothing to sneeze at and you can summon Prometheans twice within a short time and also heal them with AoE spells.


    Edit:
    This guide is a bit oudated because it doesn't include the latest patch, but I guess most of the numbers are still correct. You can check the unbinding rates of summoned units on page 32:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-_Swyh0Ifo8cTI4ZUxoVGtmVVk/view
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 5,826
    I agree with the OP, summons are a bit over the top, and what is with zombie stickyness anyways?
  • glosskilosglosskilos Registered Users Posts: 1,237

    it doesn't matter, we're stuck with broken as hell vampire coast for 3 months until the next DLC comes out and in the meantime everyone is going to start picking them on ladder. Get ready for either Coast vs Counts or Coast mirror matches. Thats the meta for the forseeable future.

    Im actually not seeing too much power creep with VP.

    I understand you like norsca and they have a really bad time with VP, but im finding VP has just as bad of a time in other matchups. Im having a hard time winning with them against empire, all elves, chaos, and greenskins. Havent met dwarfs yet but im sure theyll be very difficult too.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799


    Crypt Horror unit comes with regeneration hence it last longer its part of the unit trait.

    NO matter how you look at it its a 1100g unit it should cost much more WOM to summon than a 800g Unit, and i would argue that being tanky and taking less damage is far more important in VP roster than doing damage with the summon, because it allows your missile units to shoot at their targets longer, if they had no missile units i would argue in the opposite direction.

    I think 20WOM is very reasonable cost for that unit, there is no way it should cost less than horrors that doesn't make sense since you summon a unit that costs 300g more.

    Deckhand mob deregen being changed to same as skeletons would make them more balanced also.

    Summoned Crypt Horrors don't have regen.
    Varghulf has and it's quite expensive with taking this into account with its overall lifespan.

    Why it doesn't matter? You have unit that lives 5 seconds and cost 5 WoM and unit that lives 10 minutes and cost 10 WoM, while both cost 500 gold. Wouldn't it matter?
    But yeah good point to make Strigoi summons slightly cheaper and have smaller cooldown, especially if Devs are binded to some standards of TT for Strigoi itself.

    Not reasonable at all.
    Original cost for unit is less relevant for summons, because they are not an actual unit and depend from Spell cost/WoM cost/Cooldown/Amount of charges/lifespan of summon.

    Tbh, I find your last suggestions quite dangerous and potentially destructive for balance of Counts/Coast (TG/ME/Summons for Counts and now for Coast).

    I don't argue for keeping Coast summons as they are, but nor do I actually agree with you, since it requires lots of testing and probably some time to make clear conclusion. Values you suggest for sure would destroy spells.
    For now I think about +1-2 WoM as experiment and/or bigger cooldown (around 50-60 seconds).
    Though, yeah I admit High armor may be issue for some races. But some races also issue for Coast.

    ______________________________

    @Dracoknight
    So tell me what is the average lifetime of the rotting prometeans in combat?
    Have you any clue how powerful a 100+ armor summon is?
    ...
    Damage is IRRELEVANT when it comes to a gun faction where you have a on-demand movement blocker that doesnt go away topped with cheap healing alternatives to boot.

    Depending from target.

    Gun faction with issues with movement and damage dealers and need for healing, not healing as a boost.
    All those tools cost gold and WoM as for everyone else, which other race could invest in other areas.

    While we are at it could someone pull up the other summons spells across the entire board? I mean we still have the Skaven summons of Plague Monks, Clanrats and Stormvermin and you forget you also have the fat lady that summons knights in addition so its not like a gun faction such as ZP would need even more summons.

    Don't gey how Skaven are related to ZP. Also Skaven unlike other summons, have issues with LD, so they are dependant from LD boosts/debuffs around and could have worse lifespan as result.
    Meanwhile, as far as I know, they could summon above 20 units limit (not sure, if fair for QB). So they are more tricky to predict.

    Gunfaction without strong damage dealers and good movement (like same Skaven) may need summons, but of course it's a bit speculative and I didn't test Cylostra summons.

    So whats left is Empire that have to choose between healing or nets, and Dwarfs, and neither of these have the option to summon chaff that lasts longer than the net or slowing abilities allocated to them.

    Empire could summon Manticore, which is quite cheap and could support air/ground and could be healed as well (dowside is Rampage as mentioned in my previous post above).
    Dwarfs strenghts lay in their roster and rune abilities (or better say design wise should be there). Tbh, for now I see Dwarfs bigger problem for Coast, than Coast for Dwarfs.

    ___________________________________________

    Yes, agreed, the damage over time is an important value to take into account, too. For example Skeleton Warrior summons always degraded quicker than Zombies, to balance the fact that they're dirt cheap (in terms of Winds of Magic cost). The Manticore summon got a buff and degrades slower than before. And so on and so forth.


    Back on the topic of the Denizens of the Deep:
    Even when you look at unbinding rate, this spell is considerably more cost efficient than most other spells. For 13 Winds of Magic the spell is a bargain.

    But Lore of the Deeps needs to compete with Lore of the Vampires, most of the time you will use both lores at the same time. If the summoned Rotting Prometheans become too expensive, then people are just going to use other spells instead.

    In my opinion a small cost increase might be a good idea though. As others have pointed out a 120 armour unit is nothing to sneeze at and you can summon Prometheans twice within a short time and also heal them with AoE spells.

    Tbh, Skeleton Warriors are not balanced and underperform, imo. Their lifespan +50% miscast chance is bad for Counts.
    Also not sure, if Manticore summon should be that good for common lore. I would prefer no Rampage on it, instead, but with less effective lifespan or cost - at least it would be more predictable for races with healing and without it. But I would leave balance of Manticore to races it belongs to.


    Yeah, that may be a thing. By far I didn't test that much (especially mass vs mass) and didn't see enough replays to make full conclusion, so as I say maybe 1-2 WoM and/or bigger cooldown could be needed (So maybe something like 14/15 WoM and/or 50-60 sec cooldown).
    Meanwhile, such summon for that lore may be needed as well to address faction issues.
    Anyway, I don't know, so maybe it could be done as an experiment

    Then, if you use both Lores (because that's how race is balanced, let's assume) you need to get benifits from both for more expensive investments and more concrete builds, I think (like -1 Slot for Hero section, stabile and bigger investments in Lord/Hero section etc).
    Issue I see - If spell would become too expensive to be taken, that means spell was kinda ruined, which doesn't sound balanced to me.

    As I said I may agree with small cost increase. It actually would help to see, if there is any serious need in it. It won't restrict non-Arcane builds too much, since you still would be able to summon 4.
    And yeah armor may be issue, though of course it could be countered with AP/Anti-Large and I also don't know could you potentially effectively bog down something with this summon (Lore of Deep summons, seems more tricky, than regular once with way summons appear and this unit is not that dense in terms of models).


    And while we talking about Summons and AoE healing, I already suggested possible solution in some previous threads related to it (AoE max unit restriction and Balefire debuff for WoM recharge for each Large affected with healing/each summon presented on battlefield).
    At least Coast could have this, since it seems less orientated on blobing and summon spam by its design compared to Counts. Would be even better and more interesting experiment, than regular cost/cooldown increase with possibly more fair treatment for units/tools in the future.
    The only issue I find is that AoE healing from IoN should not be affected by models, but work like other AoE (being binded to center of unit).
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,259
    That summon needs to be a minimum 18 WOM and it atill be broken likely, the zombie deck hands need to de regen faster also. Rite now VP summons are silly broken.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Registered Users Posts: 1,011
    The summons are good and all but they compete for WoM with Nehek and some excellent damage spells and debuffs. Using all of them in one battle takes a *long* time and prevents you from healing or using Vangheist/any buff spells at all, not to mention costs a minimum of 3000+ points in spellcasters who will be doing effectively nothing else. I've already played games where I summoned nothing at all as the VP - and the game I came closest to losing, I brought Noctilus and spammed out all 8 of his summons.

    Now of course I still only have 12 VP matches under my belt, but that's kind of my point; let's give the faction a couple of weeks to settle before we start either trying to buff or trying to nerf things, ok? There still isn't a meta around the VP at all.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,259
    i rather they nehek than summon, rite now its all summon summon, they are really broken at the moment.
  • RiccardoCorradiniRiccardoCorradini Registered Users Posts: 657
    For 3k + point is not true that they can't do anything else. You can have cylostra in foot with summon,knight summon and his songs and a captain in foot with summon spell and nehek for eo ugly 2500 point(so less than 3000) .

    With more gold you can have cylostra on a massive crab making them a fighter/tank and give the captain 'taunt'(that is super cheap...) to make him a bit of an anty hero

    And in te mean time they can summon 3k+ value on point in crabs,zombie and knight

    So it's a hell of a great investment in various MU
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 184
    edited November 2018
    You cannot compare summons in a vacuum like that. The whole of roster needs to be considered. Would it be broken for example elves to have so many summons? Absolutely they would dominate in melee with a combination of high quality units and tarpit.

    Vampire coast is lacklustre in melee and very slow with slower than average units and no cavalry, even their elite infantry and monsters aren't great in melee and work due being backed up by great gunpowder. Their summons are relatively expensive and operate within the frame of this weakness. Mobility especially is a hard thing to judge but extremely important, gutting vampire coast summons would make them lose a lot of presence.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,259
    Frook said:

    You cannot compare summons in a vacuum like that. The whole of roster needs to be considered. Would it be broken for example elves to have so many summons? Absolutely they would dominate in melee with a combination of high quality units and tarpit.

    Vampire coast is lacklustre in melee and very slow with slower than average units and no cavalry, even their elite infantry and monsters aren't great in melee and work due being backed up by great gunpowder. Their summons are relatively expensive and operate within the frame of this weakness. Mobility especially is a hard thing to judge but extremely important, gutting vampire coast summons would make them lose a lot of presence.

    Sure lets compare the whole roster.

    You have unbreakable units to hold units in place while your 9 missiles units shoot them.

    I say a roster like Vamp Pirates should not have summons to begin with yet alone 3 different summons.

    You have wolves and bats if you need mobility to shut down archers otherwise you have warmachines and guns to make people come to you.

    I think Vamp Pirates are quite OP at the moment and i'm just gald the people i'm playing against don't know how to use them well because if they did i'm not sure how to beat them with anything other than dwarfs.
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