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Vindictive glare far too cost effective?

CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
Is it just me or is vindictive glare too effective for its cost?

Every time i play vs GS nowadays i face 2 goblin shamans which can one shot a medium armored lord, and it seems its fairly accurate as well. Might just be me though.
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  • ystyst Posts: 6,061Registered Users
    edited January 7
    Glad its working as intended, afterall anyone who brings air can dodge 95% of their arrows and abuse the zog out of this faction. Well deserved working spell for orks, good to see them on the field. Def moved up to tier 2 thats for sure, perhaps even higher on a great players
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  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    edited January 7
    How is it working as intended?

    The tooltip says "weak against armor", yet it does massive dmg against medium armor, even the not overcasted version. Also its stated it does "moderate dmg". Furthermore it does more dmg than comparable spells.

    Should a lord be sniped from full HP to shattered in 2 spells?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,425Registered Users
    Sure you could change the tooltip.

    But this was the magical option they gave to greenskins to help them deal with large monsters. I'm fine with it.

    I'd rather they gave greenskins a simple goblin bolt thrower, but this is good for balance. And greenskin magic is very good in other areas too, so if they're going heavy in this direction you just adjust your own play and builds accordingly.
  • y4g3ry4g3r Posts: 182Registered Users
    Fine with it. It's good to see the gaze spells for all races buffed to usefulness, it's just taking the other races some time to get onto the bandwagon.

    Vindictive glare just has a cost-effective overcast. It's range is terrible, and not improved by overcasting. Their penetration is also abysmal, so put some chaff in between your lord and the caster.

    If your lord on foot is being oneshotted you need better positioning. Your mounted lord should be doing things elsewhere on the battlefield until the caster is dead.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,082Registered Users
    y4g3r said:

    Fine with it. It's good to see the gaze spells for all races buffed to usefulness, it's just taking the other races some time to get onto the bandwagon.

    Vindictive glare just has a cost-effective overcast. It's range is terrible, and not improved by overcasting. Their penetration is also abysmal, so put some chaff in between your lord and the caster.

    If your lord on foot is being oneshotted you need better positioning. Your mounted lord should be doing things elsewhere on the battlefield until the caster is dead.

    Well, only GS missiles are seen on the field but I think it is alright - GS need this tool to make threat against mobile casters/ low&middle armored large targets. Their air is weak and their arty/bow options are average. Totaly fine by me.
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    I'm fine with it being strong and i see the point that GS needs a tool to deal with fliers, However, because of the mana cost it can be spammed to a degree that you can't bring flying lords against GS if your not ready to babysit the lord the entire game. If you don't micro your flying lord, it will be dead in 2 sec, even at the opening stage of the game.

    Also it can be super effective against lords on horseback as well, which i doubt that GS have troubles against.

  • ExarchExarch Posts: 575Registered Users
    I play a lot of greenskins, and the spells performs a vital role, especially in the anti air department. It needs to remain powerful enough to punish a dragon, or flying archer or caster lords from simply being able to sit over the GS army dodging foot archers.

    However, I've definitely come across edge cases where it is definitely OP:


    -I've swung a close battle by taking 50-60% off hellebron with a single gaze of mork (low armour and PR not helping vs magic). OC gaze of Mork has a very long range (400m iirc, maybe 300m), so can't easily be avoided on open maps.

    - Taken 2/3 damge of alarrielle with one OC vindictive gaze + one gaze of mork from wurzag when she tried to do an arcane unfroging solo flyby. She is a perfect target (armour 30), but that is far too powerful.

    -Chunked over 2000 damage off a forest dragon with armour debuffed to 20 by the rusty arrers with OC vindictive glare.

    -Seen mounted mages near one shotted by OC vindictive glare


    The problem is that the raw damage output of OC vindictive glare is huge, probably around 2000hp vs large targets, and it is pretty accurate, as well as being spammable by multiple casters.

    My solution would be to increase the AP ratio of the missiles, but reduce the total damage, so that they do the same amount of damage to an 80 armour star dragon as they do currently, but do not have such a high damage spike against low armoured targets. I would also tone down or remove OC vindictive glare, as it is the OC version that is OP when spammed at the moment.

    One or two casters with the none OC version would not be able to achieve the same damage spikes and so there is more opportunity for counterplay, but at the same time they should be able to do enough damage to punish fliers and low-medium armored monsters. The tradeoff is that they will be able to slowly chunk large armoured units down.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,732Registered Users
    its very broken at the moment, but people seem to be fine with broken spells for GS because waghhh is UP and need buffs to waghh first or buffs to their AP on missiles, not liky they dont have a net..ohh wait, maybe WOM reduction will do its good.

    Being serious for me the biggest issue with it is that its near impossible to dodge and more often than not the visual bugs out so you cannot even so it being cast. The spell is very broken damage wise also but whatever let people abuse it bit more.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,425Registered Users
    Cirdan said:

    I'm fine with it being strong and i see the point that GS needs a tool to deal with fliers, However, because of the mana cost it can be spammed to a degree that you can't bring flying lords against GS if your not ready to babysit the lord the entire game. If you don't micro your flying lord, it will be dead in 2 sec, even at the opening stage of the game.

    Also it can be super effective against lords on horseback as well, which i doubt that GS have troubles against.

    that was a low armor sorcerer lord who wasn't moving while on horseback in close (and casting) range of the gobbo. All the shots hit.

    i've tested the spell and its results are variable. As for flying lords -- wow you mean you have to actually protect them against something in the GS roster? Poor things.




  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,167Registered Users
    yst said:

    Glad its working as intended, afterall anyone who brings air can dodge 95% of their arrows and abuse the zog out of this faction. Well deserved working spell for orks, good to see them on the field. Def moved up to tier 2 thats for sure, perhaps even higher on a great players

    yes sure working as intended if you wanna cheese your way into a win and deny your opponent usage of his lord/mage before the fight even starts.

    I'm ok with it doing 15% HP as a tool against flyers for GS but currently 1 cast does 30% HP at least and I think you can hide the shamans with that GS spell so that you don't know where they are/how many they have?
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 575Registered Users
    I mad a longish post that vanished:

    TLDR: As a GS player, I think it's OP vs low armoured mounted lords/heros, especially OC, but it is needed as a way to fend off flyers and dragons. I would rebalance AP ratio so damage vs 80 armour star dragon is similar, and maybe removing the OC so damage spikes are reduced.

    Other option would be to lose accuracy so hits less vs small targets, but is potentially troublesome vs hellsteeds.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    A bit over the top in general and a lot over the top per won cost...
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,425Registered Users
    Exarch said:

    I mad a longish post that vanished:

    TLDR: As a GS player, I think it's OP vs low armoured mounted lords/heros, especially OC, but it is needed as a way to fend off flyers and dragons. I would rebalance AP ratio so damage vs 80 armour star dragon is similar, and maybe removing the OC so damage spikes are reduced.

    Other option would be to lose accuracy so hits less vs small targets, but is potentially troublesome vs hellsteeds.

    this is a good point. The greenskins don't have a problem with low armour so they should reduce damage but improve AP ratio.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,626Registered Users
    Working as intended, punishes people for autopicking flying mounts.

    Now give this tool to all other factions in the game too.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    Because Skaven can't fly? :tongue:
  • ystyst Posts: 6,061Registered Users
    edited January 7
    The stronger the better lol, the replies i see here, looks like ppl got upset because they cant dodge abuse it like they did to arrows.

    If they wanna tweak the spell, simply reduce dmg to non armor and increase ap on it. Likely not the intention of the spell that way, its mean to rekt low armors
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  • ElectorOfWurttembergElectorOfWurttemberg Posts: 1,929Registered Users
    edited January 7

    but people seem to be fine with broken spells for GS because waghhh is UP and need buffs to waghh first or buffs to their AP on missiles,

    Boy oh boy, that is very delusional and lacks any form of self awareness haha

    and I agree Vindictive Glare is over tuned for the record
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  • ReymReym Posts: 478Registered Users
    edited January 7
    Talking about Vindictive Glare being too cost effective ?

    What about fireball then XD
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • ystyst Posts: 6,061Registered Users
    Reym said:

    Talking about Vindictive Glare being too cost effective ?

    What about fireball then XD

    Whats the point of these spells if they do nothing lol.

    Plenty of totalwar with no magic and monster tbh. No need to play warhammer
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited January 7
    The problem is that with their current design, if magic missiles don't perform well vs single models, they basically don't perform well at all. Currently there's really only like 3 truly viable MM's. Fireball, Vindictive Glare and Amber Spear. The first two just mulch enemy lords/single models and the latter can annihilate an entire unit with a good cast. The rest of the MM's are just trash. Like, seriously, who uses shems burning gaze? Or Soul Quench? Or any of the others? The damage might be a bit overtuned on Fireball/VG, but the alternative atm seems to be uselessness.
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  • BialyBialy Posts: 62Registered Users
    Greenskins are bad any way as a faction.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,061Registered Users
    edited January 7
    Souls just expensive. If its 4-5 oh hell u gonna see them all the time. Its a special missile that dmg the entire unit. Every model takes a small dmg in addition to those in the path. 4/5 mana itll be a great spell.

    Same with shem and others. They r not used because they r pure trash at current state.

    Fireballs debatable really, ill say its a somewhat good spell. I mean easily dodge abuse if u want to so that makes it a unit hitter only. Likely thats what they meant to do anyway.

    Spear would be perfect with -1 cost imo. Great now without a doubt

    Def no change with gaze, frikking took them 3 yrs just to make it working
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    I think it has a lot to do with hitboxes too... vs Morathi it's no big deal, but vs eagle mounted lords/heroes two simultaneously cast spells does this for an investment of 900 gold (you can cut it down to 500ish if you don't take any items for two shamans).



    Now if this is working as intended we need to bring back a whole lot of old broken ganking tools.
  • ReymReym Posts: 478Registered Users
    edited January 7
    yst said:

    Reym said:

    Talking about Vindictive Glare being too cost effective ?

    What about fireball then XD

    Whats the point of these spells if they do nothing lol.

    Plenty of totalwar with no magic and monster tbh. No need to play warhammer
    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginnings it's perfectly fine.
    Post edited by Reym on
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • ystyst Posts: 6,061Registered Users
    edited January 7
    Why not lol, better than seeing it fly thru $3000 worth of ork archers and take 0 dmg.
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  • ystyst Posts: 6,061Registered Users
    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,425Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    The problem is that with their current design, if magic missiles don't perform well vs single models, they basically don't perform well at all. Currently there's really only like 3 truly viable MM's. Fireball, Vindictive Glare and Amber Spear. The first two just mulch enemy lords/single models and the latter can annihilate an entire unit with a good cast. The rest of the MM's are just trash. Like, seriously, who uses shems burning gaze? Or Soul Quench? Or any of the others? The damage might be a bit overtuned on Fireball/VG, but the alternative atm seems to be uselessness.

    Fireball can wreck tight units as well.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,699Registered Users
    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,425Registered Users

    yst said:

    Reym said:


    In fact I wanted to point out that vindictive glare is ok when you compare it to other magic missiles. Especially fireball who is a good old way to deal with Mr.Wuurzag.

    Vindictive glare allows greenskin to counter that than the countrary. As long as we don't get back this magic missile+goon squad fest from wh1 beginning it's perfectly fine.

    Yep I completely agree with what ure saying. Its fine in context of orks. Not to mention it’s specifically design to counter large target.

    No its never ever OK to invest 450 gold and 16 wom and instakill a general from 200 meters and stalk. If no spell duplicates were allowed in qb it would have been OK, but double glare, just no.
    I think you mean 900 gold?

    I’m ok with less damage more AP.

    But how undodgeable is this? Perfect tracking?
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,167Registered Users
    yst said:

    The stronger the better lol, the replies i see here, looks like ppl got upset because they cant dodge abuse it like they did to arrows.

    If they wanna tweak the spell, simply reduce dmg to non armor and increase ap on it. Likely not the intention of the spell that way, its mean to rekt low armors

    yea you're right, better abuse a spell that auto wins a game before it even starts by sniping the enemy magic/general, doesn't sound abusive at all :)
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