Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Do the Greenskins have enough missing content to justify a dlc & flc combo

13»

Comments

  • Xenos7777Xenos7777 Registered Users Posts: 7,448
    Enforest said:

    Pretty unlikely to happen because the engine cannot handle this sort of model swap. That's why Spirit Essence of Chaos, which is supposed to transform one unit into another, just kills one unit and summons another in its place and other spells that should have transformative effects, like Transformation of Kadon and The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell just summon units. Ammo swaps do not require replacing a unit model, so they are not the same.

    It's not model swap, it's animation and equipment swap, like what archers do when they engaged in melee. With a little bit of work from CA, weapon switching should be possible without any problems.
    In Med II knights switched to swords from lances when in melee. I remember being quite surprised when I saw it had been cut.
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,339
    Can Grom the paunch start in Yvresse?
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,301
    One of the things about greenskins is not that they have wider array of capabilities than others because of their large roster, as @Draxynnic pointed out. They just have more grnular shades between the different roles, allowing a lot of finetuning compared to others who have more multi purpose oriented units. That's not neccesarily an advantage.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Registered Users Posts: 1,301


    But didn't @Enforest mention this exact behaviour for archers? They swap weapons and change their animation set in the process. I'm sure that can be repurposed.

    In TW all ranged units break out hand weapons when they are engaged in close combat, that's not specific to archers.

    Also, their stats don't change no matter what weapon they have in hand. If Black Orks were to have different characteristics depending on what weapon they are holding, the engine would count them as two different units since every unit can only have one ranged and one melee weapon.
    Well, it provides an example that visual wepon swapping is possible. Changing stats can easily done by applying buffs and debuffs as long as the corresponding ability is active. The elven boltthrowers actually provide an example of some stats changing through triggerable modes.
  • BlacksphemyBlacksphemy Registered Users Posts: 634
    Draxynnic said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    I think I agree with your larger point of avoiding sameness between races but, to me, full rosters does not mean that roster weaknesses have to be filled in. For example giving the orcs that big stikka unit where there are two orcs with one spear could give them a viable anti large against single entity units without giving them a great option to take on groups of cavalry. Alternately spear orcs could also be given a longer "range" so that they can attack over or around their frontline, without getting too high of an anti-large bonus. I like when a faction has a pronounced weakness because that gives me more incentive to be creative in my tactics and strategy, but larger rosters should always give you more variety and tools to confront that weakness (in this game at least). I love role playing in this game more than any other TW yet and I love that I can have 4-5 viable builds in most races and stay competitive.
    Each of the factions does have weaknesses that have been ported over from their tabletop lists, though

    Greenskins, for instance, while generally a fairly balanced faction, have a number of built-in weaknesses from their tabletop list. They have almost no flying, and their ranged options, while present, are mostly pretty basic.

    Being bad at dealing with cavalry and monsters is not a weakness that comes out of their tabletop list. In tabletop balance, for instance, Black Orcs using great weapons have Strength 6, which goes to Strength 7 in the first round of combat: that's plenty enough for punching through a knight's armour save or the Toughness of most monsters. In the TWW balance context, spears are what you want for anti-large, but the orcs have both regular spear units and the Big Stabbas which were specifically made for hunting large monsters. Lack of anti-large options should not be a greenskin weakness.
    Itharus said:

    Amonkhet said:

    As long as Ork spearz lose to Yeomen its ok.

    Ignorance.

    Orc Boyz are quite capable in melee and their spear usage is fine.

    There's a problem in WH 1 races that was resolved in WH2 races and has not yet been backwards ported, sadly.

    That problem is that most of the units in the game vary by loadout, not by skill, in a given army. For instance... An Orc Boy is the base unit. He becomes an Arrer Boy or Spear Boy or whatever based on his loadout. Orcs actually have decent stats, decent leadership, and toughness 4. They're not bad troops at all -- and they are cheaper and come in numbers. Goblins are also not bad, truth be told. The average goblin is (aside from poor leadership) on par with your average human. An orc boy has slightly less skill than the imperial swordsmen (who are state troop specialists, NOT base infantry!) but their toughness evens things out quite nicely.
    Well... goblins are more on par with Bretonnian peasant levies and Skinks. The average human soldier beats the average goblin, but the lower stats of Bretonnian infantry bring them down to goblin levels.
    But you are treating it as tho it is the table top being ported over and CA has made clear that it is not beholden to the TT or the lore and instead focus on adding their own twists like cav weakness
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    Enforest said:

    Pretty unlikely to happen because the engine cannot handle this sort of model swap. That's why Spirit Essence of Chaos, which is supposed to transform one unit into another, just kills one unit and summons another in its place and other spells that should have transformative effects, like Transformation of Kadon and The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell just summon units. Ammo swaps do not require replacing a unit model, so they are not the same.

    It's not model swap, it's animation and equipment swap, like what archers do when they engaged in melee. With a little bit of work from CA, weapon switching should be possible without any problems.
    The engine treats it as a different model, that's the problem. That's also why lords and heroes only always have the same weapon and armor, the engine doesn't allow the hot-swapping of model parts.
    But didn't @Enforest mention this exact behaviour for archers? They swap weapons and change their animation set in the process. I'm sure that can be repurposed.
    In TW all ranged units break out hand weapons when they are engaged in close combat, that's not specific to archers.

    Also, their stats don't change no matter what weapon they have in hand. If Black Orks were to have different characteristics depending on what weapon they are holding, the engine would count them as two different units since every unit can only have one ranged and one melee weapon.
    There's all kinds of abilities that change stats, just look at Foe-Seeker, Deadly Onslaught, or a couple dozen others. Just make it a toggle as opposed to a timed ability and you've got it. I don't see a reason why this shouldn't be possible.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,391
    Amonkhet said:

    Theo91 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Avadon said:

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...
    You also have to remember this is a game and that inter-faction balance is important. Like, Greenskins/Empire probably have the most units out of all the factions and if they get all, how are some factions going to compete against that?
    Disagree I’m afraid. Unit variety doesn’t equal lack of balance. As long as there is a trade off through price you can balance an army properly

    Too many anti large options and you’ll expose yourself to heavy infantry. Too many great weapons and you’re exposed to missiles etc
    How would Bretonnia cope against greenskins with decent spear units?
    Every other faction in the game has spear infantry (except dwarves which have slayers)

    Bretonnia would cope just fine against the Greenskins. Cav are awesome against low armour low leadership units... it’s pretty much what they are designed for
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Ol_Nessie said:

    Enforest said:

    Pretty unlikely to happen because the engine cannot handle this sort of model swap. That's why Spirit Essence of Chaos, which is supposed to transform one unit into another, just kills one unit and summons another in its place and other spells that should have transformative effects, like Transformation of Kadon and The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell just summon units. Ammo swaps do not require replacing a unit model, so they are not the same.

    It's not model swap, it's animation and equipment swap, like what archers do when they engaged in melee. With a little bit of work from CA, weapon switching should be possible without any problems.
    The engine treats it as a different model, that's the problem. That's also why lords and heroes only always have the same weapon and armor, the engine doesn't allow the hot-swapping of model parts.
    But didn't @Enforest mention this exact behaviour for archers? They swap weapons and change their animation set in the process. I'm sure that can be repurposed.
    In TW all ranged units break out hand weapons when they are engaged in close combat, that's not specific to archers.

    Also, their stats don't change no matter what weapon they have in hand. If Black Orks were to have different characteristics depending on what weapon they are holding, the engine would count them as two different units since every unit can only have one ranged and one melee weapon.
    There's all kinds of abilities that change stats, just look at Foe-Seeker, Deadly Onslaught, or a couple dozen others. Just make it a toggle as opposed to a timed ability and you've got it. I don't see a reason why this shouldn't be possible.
    No, they don't chage stats, they apply buffs or debuffs to those stats. That would then be more like the dances of the Wardancers and it still wouldn't come with a weapon change.


    But didn't @Enforest mention this exact behaviour for archers? They swap weapons and change their animation set in the process. I'm sure that can be repurposed.

    In TW all ranged units break out hand weapons when they are engaged in close combat, that's not specific to archers.

    Also, their stats don't change no matter what weapon they have in hand. If Black Orks were to have different characteristics depending on what weapon they are holding, the engine would count them as two different units since every unit can only have one ranged and one melee weapon.
    Well, it provides an example that visual wepon swapping is possible. Changing stats can easily done by applying buffs and debuffs as long as the corresponding ability is active. The elven boltthrowers actually provide an example of some stats changing through triggerable modes.
    Swapping ammo was already possible before and doesn't change the model.
    Xenos7 said:

    Enforest said:

    Pretty unlikely to happen because the engine cannot handle this sort of model swap. That's why Spirit Essence of Chaos, which is supposed to transform one unit into another, just kills one unit and summons another in its place and other spells that should have transformative effects, like Transformation of Kadon and The Dreaded Thirteenth Spell just summon units. Ammo swaps do not require replacing a unit model, so they are not the same.

    It's not model swap, it's animation and equipment swap, like what archers do when they engaged in melee. With a little bit of work from CA, weapon switching should be possible without any problems.
    In Med II knights switched to swords from lances when in melee. I remember being quite surprised when I saw it had been cut.
    Med also allowed units to have visible armor changes. It seems to simply not work with the TW3 engine.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,184
    Enforest said:

    Itharus said:

    Theo91 said:

    For me, one of the most fun parts to the GS faction is their variety.

    Yes their roster is large but it’s not filled with CA created units or superfluous units and there’s plenty that are missing.

    I can’t understand the logic for not including weapon varieties of different units like borcs with shields or orcs with spears

    Why only one troll variant? Seems crazy to me

    Technically BO should have all the weapons. They are "armed to da teef".

    What do you think would be better: adding more variants of BO (Shield, Dual Wield) or give BO unit an ability to switch on the fly (like Elven Bolt Throwers can change ammo)?
    Switch on the fly. Give it a short cool down or set up time though so you actually have to pay attention to when you use it. Cuz... well... can't be TOO easy, now, can it?
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,184
    edited February 2019
    Draxynnic said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Theo91 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Avadon said:

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...
    You also have to remember this is a game and that inter-faction balance is important. Like, Greenskins/Empire probably have the most units out of all the factions and if they get all, how are some factions going to compete against that?
    Disagree I’m afraid. Unit variety doesn’t equal lack of balance. As long as there is a trade off through price you can balance an army properly

    Too many anti large options and you’ll expose yourself to heavy infantry. Too many great weapons and you’re exposed to missiles etc
    How would Bretonnia cope against greenskins with decent spear units?
    How does Bretonnia cope against any race with decent anti-cavalry options?
    Honestly... it's been my experience that the higher end brettonian knights generally smash even the anti-cav hard enough to win. Granted, charge into a bracing group of elite halbers or something and yeah, it doesn't work too well... but that's why you get them on the move or from the sides or with 2 units simultaneously :)

    Basic spearmen jsut... get splattered*.

    *unless you get a surround on the horse
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    That's actually because infantry in general is pretty vulnerable to high mass charges in TWWH. Heck, even light cavalry sends soldiers flying and disrupts formations. I wish they would do something about it because it means infantry anti-large isn't as great a ward against large units as it could be.
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Registered Users Posts: 4,310
    edited February 2019

    No, they don't chage stats, they apply buffs or debuffs to those stats. That would then be more like the dances of the Wardancers and it still wouldn't come with a weapon change.

    Semantics. Ok, so toggling the ability will apply a buff or a debuff to the appropriate stats. The unit could use the great weapon as the base, using the shield would reduce AP damage and maybe even damage in general but provide a buff to MD and give a missile block while dual wielding would increase overall damage but would lower the AP ratio. The weapon change could just tie whatever trigger the missile units use when they go into melee to the ability.



  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Ol_Nessie said:

    No, they don't chage stats, they apply buffs or debuffs to those stats. That would then be more like the dances of the Wardancers and it still wouldn't come with a weapon change.

    Semantics. Ok, so toggling the ability will apply a buff or a debuff to the appropriate stats. The unit could use the great weapon as the base, using the shield would reduce AP damage and maybe even damage in general but provide a buff to MD and give a missile block while dual wielding would increase overall damage but would lower the AP ratio. The weapon change could just tie whatever trigger the missile units use when they go into melee to the ability.



    If it was that easy, modders would have already put it in.

    I mean, in older games pikemen switched melee weapons, but somehow it seems to not work with other weapon types.
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Registered Users Posts: 4,310

    Ol_Nessie said:

    No, they don't chage stats, they apply buffs or debuffs to those stats. That would then be more like the dances of the Wardancers and it still wouldn't come with a weapon change.

    Semantics. Ok, so toggling the ability will apply a buff or a debuff to the appropriate stats. The unit could use the great weapon as the base, using the shield would reduce AP damage and maybe even damage in general but provide a buff to MD and give a missile block while dual wielding would increase overall damage but would lower the AP ratio. The weapon change could just tie whatever trigger the missile units use when they go into melee to the ability.



    If it was that easy, modders would have already put it in.

    I mean, in older games pikemen switched melee weapons, but somehow it seems to not work with other weapon types.
    Point. I guess the coding is probably beyond the abilities of the average modder. It'd be a cool feature, but if it really is that involved they probably wouldn't do it for just one unit.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,184

    That's actually because infantry in general is pretty vulnerable to high mass charges in TWWH. Heck, even light cavalry sends soldiers flying and disrupts formations. I wish they would do something about it because it means infantry anti-large isn't as great a ward against large units as it could be.

    To be fair... anything short of pikes doesn't usually hold up that well to a charge by armored knights with lances. Lances, of course, being designed as a first strike weapon (they are longer than spears). Hell, in Poland, they were using 21' lances by the end there, along with pistols and hurlbats lol. They could shatter a line of spearmen on the charge. Spearmen were used en masse not because they automatically slapped down cavalry, but because any idiot could be lined up and told to hold one pointed at the enemy and stand or push.


    With that outta the way though, yes spears in game should certainly be more effective against light cavalry. A plate-barded and war-trained destrier will happily trample you, but an unarmored lesser horse is going to balk at charging into a mass of people with pointy bits, and penetrate less deeply into a formation.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 10,972

    One of the things about greenskins is not that they have wider array of capabilities than others because of their large roster, as @Draxynnic pointed out. They just have more grnular shades between the different roles, allowing a lot of finetuning compared to others who have more multi purpose oriented units. That's not neccesarily an advantage.

    Beyond that, to a certain degree, the large greenskin roster is a reflection of how disorganised the greenskins are. The greenskin roster is composed of about half a dozen different kinds of greenskin, many of which have their own way of doing essentially the same thing. For instance, apart from Black Orcs, each greenskin variety has its own form of cavalry, many of which perform much the same role - such as Spider Riders and Wolf Riders in the role of light cavalry, or Squig Hoppers and the various forms of boar riders for shock/melee cavalry.

    Conversely, more organised and united factions like the High Elves tend to only have a few units within a particular role, including equipment variations and elite versions. So to continue the cavalry example, the High Elves have a total of five cavalry units, including light pursuit cavalry, archers, and a few grades of shock cavalry, while the greenskins have nearly twice as many cavalry options, but I wouldn't be inclined to call the greenskins a better cavalry faction just because they have more options.

    Draxynnic said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    I think I agree with your larger point of avoiding sameness between races but, to me, full rosters does not mean that roster weaknesses have to be filled in. For example giving the orcs that big stikka unit where there are two orcs with one spear could give them a viable anti large against single entity units without giving them a great option to take on groups of cavalry. Alternately spear orcs could also be given a longer "range" so that they can attack over or around their frontline, without getting too high of an anti-large bonus. I like when a faction has a pronounced weakness because that gives me more incentive to be creative in my tactics and strategy, but larger rosters should always give you more variety and tools to confront that weakness (in this game at least). I love role playing in this game more than any other TW yet and I love that I can have 4-5 viable builds in most races and stay competitive.
    Each of the factions does have weaknesses that have been ported over from their tabletop lists, though

    Greenskins, for instance, while generally a fairly balanced faction, have a number of built-in weaknesses from their tabletop list. They have almost no flying, and their ranged options, while present, are mostly pretty basic.

    Being bad at dealing with cavalry and monsters is not a weakness that comes out of their tabletop list. In tabletop balance, for instance, Black Orcs using great weapons have Strength 6, which goes to Strength 7 in the first round of combat: that's plenty enough for punching through a knight's armour save or the Toughness of most monsters. In the TWW balance context, spears are what you want for anti-large, but the orcs have both regular spear units and the Big Stabbas which were specifically made for hunting large monsters. Lack of anti-large options should not be a greenskin weakness.
    Itharus said:

    Amonkhet said:

    As long as Ork spearz lose to Yeomen its ok.

    Ignorance.

    Orc Boyz are quite capable in melee and their spear usage is fine.

    There's a problem in WH 1 races that was resolved in WH2 races and has not yet been backwards ported, sadly.

    That problem is that most of the units in the game vary by loadout, not by skill, in a given army. For instance... An Orc Boy is the base unit. He becomes an Arrer Boy or Spear Boy or whatever based on his loadout. Orcs actually have decent stats, decent leadership, and toughness 4. They're not bad troops at all -- and they are cheaper and come in numbers. Goblins are also not bad, truth be told. The average goblin is (aside from poor leadership) on par with your average human. An orc boy has slightly less skill than the imperial swordsmen (who are state troop specialists, NOT base infantry!) but their toughness evens things out quite nicely.
    Well... goblins are more on par with Bretonnian peasant levies and Skinks. The average human soldier beats the average goblin, but the lower stats of Bretonnian infantry bring them down to goblin levels.
    But you are treating it as tho it is the table top being ported over and CA has made clear that it is not beholden to the TT or the lore and instead focus on adding their own twists like cav weakness
    Have CA said that it was a design choice on their part?

    Even if they have, though, I'd say that people's experiences have shown it was the wrong one. Sure, it's clearly not a direct port from the tabletop, but they should at least be trying to keep the feel of the race on the tabletop. Greenskins in the army book show a clear awareness that pointy sticks are good for fighting things that are bigger than they are, and the greenskins have enough weaknesses that are ported over from the tabletop that they don't need another one thrown in.
    Itharus said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Theo91 said:

    Amonkhet said:

    Avadon said:

    Greenskins have still a ton of stuff missing, a lot of which are very very easy "reskins" using ingame assets.
    Seeing what CA did with VC gives me a lot of hope that with the GS rework we'll get many new units such as:
    - Savage Orc Great Shaman
    - Savage Orc Warboss
    - Black Orc Warboss
    - Orc Big Boss
    - Black Orc Big Boss

    They coud also use very quick reassets such as, to name a few:
    - Orc Spearz
    - Night Goblin Spears
    - Black Orcs with Shields

    New stuff they'd need in a DLC include:
    - Spear Chukka
    - Stone Trolls
    - River Trolls
    - Colossal Squig
    - Snotling Pump Wagon (for the lulz)

    They also have still 2 very valid LP:
    - Grom vs Eltharion for a playable Grom Waagh and Yvresse
    - Gorfang vs Thorek (or Kazador, but Thorek is more unique) for a playable Red Fangs and Karak Azul.

    Not to mention the various weapon varieties or mounts for current standing units e.g. spears/shields for standard orcs or gigantic spider mounts for goblin war bosses (finally making them tanky and a proper threat upon the battlefield)...
    Amonkhet said:

    Be wary with adding full rosters of the larger races; they'll end up playing the same and being able to counter anything the other races bring.

    GunKing said:

    I've said it many times, but WH2 was released way too soon. There was so much more content to be mined out of WH1, the races of the Old World have so much lore and context behind them, it's a crying shame they got this surface level treatment.

    I want proper troll variety for Greenskins so much. And a Black Orc Warboss, and a Savage Orc Warboss! Man it would make so much more sense if Savage Orc army spawns were led by Savage Orc Warbosses!

    That wouldn't be very fair to fans of Vampire Coast, Dark Elves, High Elves, Tomb Kings, Lizardmen and Skaven.
    This a moot warning...if they have the units and weapon usages within the army book...

    They must have said aspects within the warhammer games...otherwise...a pathetically horrible interpretation of the faction established by CA will be ever present...always labelled as such...
    You also have to remember this is a game and that inter-faction balance is important. Like, Greenskins/Empire probably have the most units out of all the factions and if they get all, how are some factions going to compete against that?
    Disagree I’m afraid. Unit variety doesn’t equal lack of balance. As long as there is a trade off through price you can balance an army properly

    Too many anti large options and you’ll expose yourself to heavy infantry. Too many great weapons and you’re exposed to missiles etc
    How would Bretonnia cope against greenskins with decent spear units?
    How does Bretonnia cope against any race with decent anti-cavalry options?
    Honestly... it's been my experience that the higher end brettonian knights generally smash even the anti-cav hard enough to win. Granted, charge into a bracing group of elite halbers or something and yeah, it doesn't work too well... but that's why you get them on the move or from the sides or with 2 units simultaneously :)

    Basic spearmen jsut... get splattered*.

    *unless you get a surround on the horse
    It was a bit of a rhetorical question. As Theo91 points out, nearly every other race has spearmen, so whatever techniques Bretonnians have that work against those (and I can think of a few offhand, including just sucking it up and charging in because your knights are good enough to win despite the anti-large) would presumably work if greenskins had spears, unless there's something about greenskins that means that Bretonnia would be specifically boned by the combination of spears with the rest of the greenskin list (can't see how, but I don't have a huge amount of experience with either, so I guess it's not impossible?) or Bretonnians are just boned by anti-large in general (in which case, the balance problem lies with the Bretonnians needing to have better ways of dealing with anti-large, not with the greenskins becoming broken if they get better anti-large options).

    Or, to put it more simply: whatever answer you give to the question I asked, you could probably also give the same answer to the question Amonkhet asked.
Sign In or Register to comment.