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Vampire Count Upkeep Disaster

HeatMakkerHeatMakker Posts: 23Registered Users
Hey all,

I love the new VC1 however I have a huge issue with the upkeep reductions in the research tree. Specifically, i am referring to the two techs which grant a 100% reduction in zombie upkeep and 100% for skeletons.

While Massive upkeep discounts for low tier VC1 units make a lot of sense for the theme and offset the terrible economy they make the faction soooo easy to exploit. I can always afford to recruit 3-4 stacks (or more) of chaff and basically start my steamroll in the early game.

It the mid-late game I end up with double the amount of stacks i would have in another campaign but almost all of my units are skeletons w/ some fast attck to support. Units like crypt ghouls have no place in my army comps because they cost way too much upkeep and are such a marginal improvement over skeletons. I occasionally throw 2-3 cairn wraiths or graveguard into an army for flavor. Blauugh

The worst part is that as min-max-y as this feels i know i am not even scratching the surface. The barrow legion faction has reduced upkeep for necromancer lords so that you could possibly afford 10 full stacks of just skeletons by turn 40. Unstoppable.

Solution: The upkeep reduction for skeletons and skeleton spearmen should be changed to 50% (or something around that). An upkeep reduction to zero makes too much of the roster obsolete and encourages unfun spamming. Also I think the economy needs just a little bit of a boost offset this. Currently, even with extremely cheap armies I find I have very little money to upgrade my infrastructure even though Im unstoppable on the battlefield.
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Comments

  • BaaltorBaaltor Posts: 68Registered Users
    I got some stuff to add, but I broadly agree. Broadly.

    1. I think ghouls should get some discount too, in response to your other points. Maybe not the full 100%, but some. The thing is they do have a place in the roster still, being so much faster, and damaging, and poisonous, but when they're competing with free soldiers, you gotta bring a lot more to the table than that.

    2. I was thinking about this earlier today, actually, and that's why I came to the forums just now, so I might as well say my idea. I was thinking about attaching an effect to the book of Arkhan tech tree where each technology you research lowers the upkeep of the units. You didn't mention it, but I feel that the effects come too late, but at the same time too quickly. I think it'd be neat if you got like 5% less upkeep for each tech, with a couple techs adding less cost. Kind of thematic too, scouring the tombs and mausolea for artefacts and knowledge, your forces crowding the streets!

    3. Or maybe instead of reducing the upkeep, the techs could reduce the recruitment, or raise dead cost, to more accurately mimic the 'raise dead' part of the necromancers. Rather than having a standing army like other factions.
  • SaborSabor Posts: 233Registered Users
    While I understand the perspective I whole heartedly disagree. While it seems really broken it all comes down to how you choose to play. Personally I like the faction flavor of having endless hoards of zombies thrown at a wall. Not effective, but very thematic and fun to watch.

    People can also choose to bring nothing but a stack of steam tanks and pave the entire map. It comes down to how YOU want to play. If you think 40 stacks is ridiculous (which it is) then don't make that many. Please do not encourage removing faction diversity though. If Skaven got the same upkeep reduction for slaves I would welcome the endless furry tide as well.
  • DSDSDSDDSDSDSD Posts: 58Registered Users
    Alright, I have to agree with Sabor on this one.
    The problem with skeleton spam in a campaign is that due to supply lines, upgrading to a real army when you have ten garbage-tier stacks, is insanely expensive. Sure, it is OP early game, but later on I found in my Count playthrough that when Chaos arrived, even twenty skeleton stacks will not save you.

    This is due to only being allowed to have 40 units on a battlefield at one time, or four armies from your side in a fight. Not to mention that any ai lord with lightning strike could wipe out your entire collection of skeletons in one turn.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 17,252Registered Users
    DSDSDSD said:

    Alright, I have to agree with Sabor on this one.
    The problem with skeleton spam in a campaign is that due to supply lines, upgrading to a real army when you have ten garbage-tier stacks, is insanely expensive. Sure, it is OP early game, but later on I found in my Count playthrough that when Chaos arrived, even twenty skeleton stacks will not save you.

    This is due to only being allowed to have 40 units on a battlefield at one time, or four armies from your side in a fight. Not to mention that any ai lord with lightning strike could wipe out your entire collection of skeletons in one turn.

    Ultimately this is right.

    Though ideally supply lines would get dropped. As is right now you're shooting yourself in the foot if you spam skeletons.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • HeatMakkerHeatMakker Posts: 23Registered Users
    Yeah, Skele armies are weak to Chaos Hordes but until the first or second horde comes they are extremely powerful when paired with a couple units to terror rout and run down fleeing troops.

    Yeah you can always play however you want but some factions are designed to best perform in certain ways. If nothing else the problem with the 100% upkeep reduction is that it makes zombies and crypt ghouls pointless except as a last resort raise dead. Other unit types get used less frequently also.

    Its an easy fix and I agree with Baaltor that there a multiple solutions. In particular there should be a reduced upkeep for other unit types so that part of the roster is not irrelevant.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,929Registered Users
    4 armies to a side is a HUGE hindrance to Greenskins players, too - especially skarsnik.

    Races like Dwarfs have ludicrous economies that allow them to maintain double digits worth of full elite stacks when armies such as Greenskins are rocking about 6 for the same cost and only a third (at best) the performance.

    So yeah, all those skeliestacks in the end will not save you if you're facing an elite faction, such as any of the Elves or the Dwarves, or even Chaos and Lizardmen.

    Thing is... a lot of this problem is *ON* the elite factions. Elite armies are supposed to be few in number, but the way this game works they tried to tie it into a tier system that just has you spamming mass elite stacks - which then heal quickly due to reduced unit sizes.

    That standard tier formula doesn't work for crap when you're using asymmetrically balanced forces that come from a game where the amount of elites in proportion to the main body of your troops is limited. None of that was ported into this game, though.

    I hate to say it, but what's needed here is unit caps. I know they were unpopular in Rome 2, but Rome 2 - as diverse as it was - has nothing on Warhammer for roster diversity. The caps are needed in this game :-/
  • endurendur Posts: 3,249Registered Users
    I disagree with the other poster, but I do think a minor modification would be a good idea.

    100% free zombies are essentially worthless. So I have no problem with free zombies.

    Free skeletons are iffy, and free skeleton spearmen are too good.

    The tech that gives free skeletons and free skeleton spearmen takes the same number of turns as free zombies.

    So I think the solution is to change the free skeleton/skeleton spearmen tech. Either just give free skeletons, and make skeleton spearmen be the normal price, or give a 50% discount for skeletons and skeleton spearmen. Either change could work, and would still make skeletons more effective but wouldn't be as powerful as it currently is.

    An alternative option would be to split the skeleton tech, and add a separate free skeleton spearmen tech, but I don't think that would solve the problem, it would just delay it a few turns.

    Also, Vampire Counts do not need a change to their economy. Their economy is one of the best in the game (other than the fact that nobody wants to trade with them).


  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 851Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    4 armies to a side is a HUGE hindrance to Greenskins players, too - especially skarsnik.

    Races like Dwarfs have ludicrous economies that allow them to maintain double digits worth of full elite stacks when armies such as Greenskins are rocking about 6 for the same cost and only a third (at best) the performance.

    So yeah, all those skeliestacks in the end will not save you if you're facing an elite faction, such as any of the Elves or the Dwarves, or even Chaos and Lizardmen.

    Thing is... a lot of this problem is *ON* the elite factions. Elite armies are supposed to be few in number, but the way this game works they tried to tie it into a tier system that just has you spamming mass elite stacks - which then heal quickly due to reduced unit sizes.

    That standard tier formula doesn't work for crap when you're using asymmetrically balanced forces that come from a game where the amount of elites in proportion to the main body of your troops is limited. None of that was ported into this game, though.

    I hate to say it, but what's needed here is unit caps. I know they were unpopular in Rome 2, but Rome 2 - as diverse as it was - has nothing on Warhammer for roster diversity. The caps are needed in this game :-/

    The sandbox element goes to hell if everything is burried under unit caps, and as far as I can tell the elite spam is only really a problem on VH. I've put a couple of thousand hours into ME on normal and hard and I don't see anything too crazy. It does happen but the upkeep reduction just isn't big enough to allow levels of spam.

    So what it boils down to, I guess, is that everybody should have less options and be forced to play more restricted armies just so your VH experience is more comfy. Is that about right?

    And for the love of Gork, try using a mod to do away with supply lines. It makes everything so much better.
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 851Registered Users
    endur said:

    I disagree with the other poster, but I do think a minor modification would be a good idea.

    100% free zombies are essentially worthless. So I have no problem with free zombies.

    Free skeletons are iffy, and free skeleton spearmen are too good.

    The tech that gives free skeletons and free skeleton spearmen takes the same number of turns as free zombies.

    So I think the solution is to change the free skeleton/skeleton spearmen tech. Either just give free skeletons, and make skeleton spearmen be the normal price, or give a 50% discount for skeletons and skeleton spearmen. Either change could work, and would still make skeletons more effective but wouldn't be as powerful as it currently is.

    An alternative option would be to split the skeleton tech, and add a separate free skeleton spearmen tech, but I don't think that would solve the problem, it would just delay it a few turns.

    Also, Vampire Counts do not need a change to their economy. Their economy is one of the best in the game (other than the fact that nobody wants to trade with them).


    VC economy is great once you get a bunch of high tier settlements going, but you have to build vertically and that takes time. And until that happens, the VC economy is a bit iffy.

    Free skellies is therefore awesome, but also a bit OP, particularly when also combined with Bloodlines. I reckon if it was just upkeep reduced by 50% then it would still be pretty good. It would make it fairly easy to buff up early game to resist foreign aggression, but it would not encourage battles of 38 skellies and two lords in a huge blob, invocating as needed while the AI is having a moment of nope.

    So if you ask me, just reduce it to 50% upkeep reduction. Still a very good tech, practically a must have, but not something that leads directly into a skellflation crash when the Chaos invasion happens.
  • BoombastekBoombastek Posts: 2,047Registered Users
    endur said:

    I disagree with the other poster, but I do think a minor modification would be a good idea.

    100% free zombies are essentially worthless. So I have no problem with free zombies.

    Free skeletons are iffy, and free skeleton spearmen are too good.

    The tech that gives free skeletons and free skeleton spearmen takes the same number of turns as free zombies.

    So I think the solution is to change the free skeleton/skeleton spearmen tech. Either just give free skeletons, and make skeleton spearmen be the normal price, or give a 50% discount for skeletons and skeleton spearmen. Either change could work, and would still make skeletons more effective but wouldn't be as powerful as it currently is.

    An alternative option would be to split the skeleton tech, and add a separate free skeleton spearmen tech, but I don't think that would solve the problem, it would just delay it a few turns.

    Also, Vampire Counts do not need a change to their economy. Their economy is one of the best in the game (other than the fact that nobody wants to trade with them).


    That solution was made to help VC early game expande and made strong economy.

    Check cost of all VC economy building and their pay back time. It more than any other faction.

    And if you gonna be at war with GS and WoC you can trade with High Elf and Dwarf easly. And ofc TK want to trade with anybody.
  • MagicspookMagicspook Posts: 217Registered Users
    endur said:

    I
    (other than the fact that nobody wants to trade with them).

    That has changed with the addition of the VP factions. In my Kemmler campaign, as soon as that event procced that lets you know all naval powers (age of discovery I think), I could get trade agreements with saltspite and noctilus for >1000 gold each.

    Also the wood elves love me because I stomped brettonia into the ground, but I don't think you can trade with AI wood elves.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,929Registered Users

    Itharus said:

    4 armies to a side is a HUGE hindrance to Greenskins players, too - especially skarsnik.

    Races like Dwarfs have ludicrous economies that allow them to maintain double digits worth of full elite stacks when armies such as Greenskins are rocking about 6 for the same cost and only a third (at best) the performance.

    So yeah, all those skeliestacks in the end will not save you if you're facing an elite faction, such as any of the Elves or the Dwarves, or even Chaos and Lizardmen.

    Thing is... a lot of this problem is *ON* the elite factions. Elite armies are supposed to be few in number, but the way this game works they tried to tie it into a tier system that just has you spamming mass elite stacks - which then heal quickly due to reduced unit sizes.

    That standard tier formula doesn't work for crap when you're using asymmetrically balanced forces that come from a game where the amount of elites in proportion to the main body of your troops is limited. None of that was ported into this game, though.

    I hate to say it, but what's needed here is unit caps. I know they were unpopular in Rome 2, but Rome 2 - as diverse as it was - has nothing on Warhammer for roster diversity. The caps are needed in this game :-/

    The sandbox element goes to hell if everything is burried under unit caps, and as far as I can tell the elite spam is only really a problem on VH. I've put a couple of thousand hours into ME on normal and hard and I don't see anything too crazy. It does happen but the upkeep reduction just isn't big enough to allow levels of spam.

    So what it boils down to, I guess, is that everybody should have less options and be forced to play more restricted armies just so your VH experience is more comfy. Is that about right?

    And for the love of Gork, try using a mod to do away with supply lines. It makes everything so much better.
    No, it's not right. Has nothing to do with making my "VH experience" more comfy. I mostly play on hard, VH only on certain races, btw. Trust me, if your games go long enough - you WILL see those armies.

    Also, how would caps make your sandbox go to hell? It'd be something simple like the system the Tomb Kings use -- you'd just have to make more military buildings of higher ranks to increase your cap. All it would mean is that you'd have to heavily invest/specialize to get your all elite armies. You'd only be limited by the number of settlements of the appropriate tier that you own.

    Regarding a mod to remove supply lines penalty from my Greenskins - I prefer not to mod, but I would like to see CA exempt them (and Skaven) from said penalty, as I think it would be fitting. Even if they did that though, the 4 armies to a side in any battle still DESPERATELY bottlenecks "swarm" factions (like GS, Skaven, Undead) in a totally unfair way. There should be nothing stopping you from calling in every last reinforcement within range.
  • 4uk4ata4uk4ata Posts: 897Registered Users
    I think making skeletons free was a bit much and took the TK's schtick. VC have a poor economy, sure, but they aren't nearly as bad. 100% zombies and 50% skeletons, maybe?

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  • HeatMakkerHeatMakker Posts: 23Registered Users
    Yeah, i am down for a 50% upkeep reduction for skeletons but then there needs to be something to offset the change as its important in the mid-late game.

    ie. 1. multiple late game technologies in different trees that each provide a 5% overall reduction

    2. Researchable crypt ghoul reduction/cairn wraith, say about 20%

    3. Increased economic productivity

    This isnt quite game breaking stuff, my biggest gripe is that it seems really poorly thought out . I’d make a mod but I don’t know how
  • ThomassiniThomassini Posts: 211Registered Users

    DSDSDSD said:

    Alright, I have to agree with Sabor on this one.
    The problem with skeleton spam in a campaign is that due to supply lines, upgrading to a real army when you have ten garbage-tier stacks, is insanely expensive. Sure, it is OP early game, but later on I found in my Count playthrough that when Chaos arrived, even twenty skeleton stacks will not save you.

    This is due to only being allowed to have 40 units on a battlefield at one time, or four armies from your side in a fight. Not to mention that any ai lord with lightning strike could wipe out your entire collection of skeletons in one turn.

    Ultimately this is right.

    Though ideally supply lines would get dropped. As is right now you're shooting yourself in the foot if you spam skeletons.
    No.

    It’s insane idea. If you drop supply lines for VC, then coupled with the -100% upkeep reduction tech, they will be able to spam tens, and later hundreds of stacks full of skeletons.

    Quick math:
    You have 2500 base income. Early game you can maybe get additional 1500 from one or two economically developed provinces. Note: if you play MvC or Ghorst, you have access to economically insane province (gold mine + main building granting huge bonuses to income), so that figure can easily rise to additional 3000-4000 just from Sylvania. And this is before counting in tier 4 and 5 income buildings.

    Even then, let’s take 5k income as the average early income:
    Assume 350 as the upkeep of necromancer lord. The rest of army are free skeletons. Then you can have: 14 full stacks of skeletons with Necromancer lord. It is insane, don’t you think? We are talking about turn 30-40. Supply lines are a must for all vamps, unless we want to enjoy even faster necrotide.
  • BoombastekBoombastek Posts: 2,047Registered Users

    DSDSDSD said:

    Alright, I have to agree with Sabor on this one.
    The problem with skeleton spam in a campaign is that due to supply lines, upgrading to a real army when you have ten garbage-tier stacks, is insanely expensive. Sure, it is OP early game, but later on I found in my Count playthrough that when Chaos arrived, even twenty skeleton stacks will not save you.

    This is due to only being allowed to have 40 units on a battlefield at one time, or four armies from your side in a fight. Not to mention that any ai lord with lightning strike could wipe out your entire collection of skeletons in one turn.

    Ultimately this is right.

    Though ideally supply lines would get dropped. As is right now you're shooting yourself in the foot if you spam skeletons.
    No.

    It’s insane idea. If you drop supply lines for VC, then coupled with the -100% upkeep reduction tech, they will be able to spam tens, and later hundreds of stacks full of skeletons.

    Quick math:
    You have 2500 base income. Early game you can maybe get additional 1500 from one or two economically developed provinces. Note: if you play MvC or Ghorst, you have access to economically insane province (gold mine + main building granting huge bonuses to income), so that figure can easily rise to additional 3000-4000 just from Sylvania. And this is before counting in tier 4 and 5 income buildings.

    Even then, let’s take 5k income as the average early income:
    Assume 350 as the upkeep of necromancer lord. The rest of army are free skeletons. Then you can have: 14 full stacks of skeletons with Necromancer lord. It is insane, don’t you think? We are talking about turn 30-40. Supply lines are a must for all vamps, unless we want to enjoy even faster necrotide.
    At first when you play Von carstein you are all time at 3 or 4 turn taking Drakengof.
    This tech on skeletons mainly for Kemmler. After VP update Alith anar handle by self with Morathi, and now Tyrion nothing to do. But on legendary AI all time must be in war with some. And here we go tasty Kemmler.
    With very high battles difficulties you cant handle with unlimited Lothern waves of angry High Elves. Only options is winds of Death + free skeletons.

    You cant change free skeletons without affect Kemmler campaign to unplayable on highest difficulties.
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Posts: 472Registered Users
    Baaltor said:

    I got some stuff to add, but I broadly agree. Broadly.

    1. I think ghouls should get some discount too, in response to your other points. Maybe not the full 100%, but some. The thing is they do have a place in the roster still, being so much faster, and damaging, and poisonous, but when they're competing with free soldiers, you gotta bring a lot more to the table than that.

    2. I was thinking about this earlier today, actually, and that's why I came to the forums just now, so I might as well say my idea. I was thinking about attaching an effect to the book of Arkhan tech tree where each technology you research lowers the upkeep of the units. You didn't mention it, but I feel that the effects come too late, but at the same time too quickly. I think it'd be neat if you got like 5% less upkeep for each tech, with a couple techs adding less cost. Kind of thematic too, scouring the tombs and mausolea for artefacts and knowledge, your forces crowding the streets!

    3. Or maybe instead of reducing the upkeep, the techs could reduce the recruitment, or raise dead cost, to more accurately mimic the 'raise dead' part of the necromancers. Rather than having a standing army like other factions.

    I agree too. Actually I'm in the 50% for skeleton camp started by @endur . Maybe make it -65% to satisfy @Boombastek . The point is giving them a huge reduction in upkeep instead of eliminating it completely.

    On point 1 I'd recommend tying that to the ghoul king or the strigoi bloodline. I don't feel that these creatures have the same central position for the general faction as zombies and skellies, making such a substantial buff through general technology a bit unjustified. For specialized playstyles the matter is a bit different though.
  • blacksphemyblacksphemy Posts: 173Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Itharus said:

    4 armies to a side is a HUGE hindrance to Greenskins players, too - especially skarsnik.

    Races like Dwarfs have ludicrous economies that allow them to maintain double digits worth of full elite stacks when armies such as Greenskins are rocking about 6 for the same cost and only a third (at best) the performance.

    So yeah, all those skeliestacks in the end will not save you if you're facing an elite faction, such as any of the Elves or the Dwarves, or even Chaos and Lizardmen.

    Thing is... a lot of this problem is *ON* the elite factions. Elite armies are supposed to be few in number, but the way this game works they tried to tie it into a tier system that just has you spamming mass elite stacks - which then heal quickly due to reduced unit sizes.

    That standard tier formula doesn't work for crap when you're using asymmetrically balanced forces that come from a game where the amount of elites in proportion to the main body of your troops is limited. None of that was ported into this game, though.

    I hate to say it, but what's needed here is unit caps. I know they were unpopular in Rome 2, but Rome 2 - as diverse as it was - has nothing on Warhammer for roster diversity. The caps are needed in this game :-/

    The sandbox element goes to hell if everything is burried under unit caps, and as far as I can tell the elite spam is only really a problem on VH. I've put a couple of thousand hours into ME on normal and hard and I don't see anything too crazy. It does happen but the upkeep reduction just isn't big enough to allow levels of spam.

    So what it boils down to, I guess, is that everybody should have less options and be forced to play more restricted armies just so your VH experience is more comfy. Is that about right?

    And for the love of Gork, try using a mod to do away with supply lines. It makes everything so much better.
    No, it's not right. Has nothing to do with making my "VH experience" more comfy. I mostly play on hard, VH only on certain races, btw. Trust me, if your games go long enough - you WILL see those armies.

    Also, how would caps make your sandbox go to hell? It'd be something simple like the system the Tomb Kings use -- you'd just have to make more military buildings of higher ranks to increase your cap. All it would mean is that you'd have to heavily invest/specialize to get your all elite armies. You'd only be limited by the number of settlements of the appropriate tier that you own.

    Regarding a mod to remove supply lines penalty from my Greenskins - I prefer not to mod, but I would like to see CA exempt them (and Skaven) from said penalty, as I think it would be fitting. Even if they did that though, the 4 armies to a side in any battle still DESPERATELY bottlenecks "swarm" factions (like GS, Skaven, Undead) in a totally unfair way. There should be nothing stopping you from calling in every last reinforcement within range.
    I think the community would benefit from a toggle that forced elite caps on whatever difficulty they wanted to play. How hard would that be for CA to implement? This would bring extra depth for the people who want it, but allow the sandbox for those of us who don't. More options means everyone wins, MAKE TOTAL WARHAMMER GREAT AGAIN
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Posts: 472Registered Users


    I think the community would benefit from a toggle that forced elite caps on whatever difficulty they wanted to play. How hard would that be for CA to implement? This would bring extra depth for the people who want it, but allow the sandbox for those of us who don't. More options means everyone wins, MAKE TOTAL WARHAMMER GREAT AGAIN

    OR implement a soft cap system as a compromise. Hard caps feel a bit artifically tagged on anyways. What about recruitment cost and upkeep increasing along with replenishment rate decreasing the more elite units (of a certain type?) the player currently has? This probably shouldn't reset immediatly once a unit gets destroyed but gradualy regenerate to the targeted value, making immediate re-recruitment less desirable/impossible.
  • Kambing1956Kambing1956 Posts: 183Registered Users
    Sounds like sfo ( now grimhsmmer)

    I personally like the current system...generates for me one scent stack with several cheap mainly zombie/skeleton armies. I often throw in some bats to take care of archers.

    My change would be to put the skeleton reduction well after (not parallel) to the zombie upgrade.

    I do like the concept of keeping zombies and skeletons in the mid to late game and without this reduction it never makes sense.

    As others have said, the supply line rule keeps you from abusing this mechanic.

    I have taken down Brittonian mid tier stacks with mainly zombies and magic but it was a LOT of zombies with a few bats skeletons and spear skeletons.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Posts: 2,631Registered Users
    Sabor said:

    While I understand the perspective I whole heartedly disagree. While it seems really broken it all comes down to how you choose to play. Personally I like the faction flavor of having endless hoards of zombies thrown at a wall. Not effective, but very thematic and fun to watch.

    People can also choose to bring nothing but a stack of steam tanks and pave the entire map. It comes down to how YOU want to play. If you think 40 stacks is ridiculous (which it is) then don't make that many. Please do not encourage removing faction diversity though. If Skaven got the same upkeep reduction for slaves I would welcome the endless furry tide as well.

    I disagree with your disagreement! (lol)

    I think the game shouldn't allow you to exploit it. The rules in place that make it a game, with a defined set of rules and challenges, should prevent the player from making itself effortless to win. If you "can choose" to have a stack of 19 steam tanks and the AI and game cannot actually do anything to stop you after that point... the game should either end and declare you the winner or just not let you do that.

    If you have to "self regulate" in order for the game to be interesting, it just means the game was balanced wrong.

    There's some argument to be made for it being a "sandbox" style game, but there's difficulty sliders and initial start difficulties. These are clearly trying to regulate the experience and if they can't do that because no matter the difficulty having 10 stacks of free skeletons makes you auto-win, then the game is failing to enforce it's own rules and needs to be changed.
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  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,929Registered Users
    I don't understand the whole VC have a poor economy thing.

    I'm not usually lacking for money even before free skellies.

    What are you guys doing, trying to fund more than 3 armies off the Sylvanias? Take some more land.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KPosts: 1,854Registered Users
    edited February 2019
    Free skeletons? How are they "free", you still pay upkeep for them, until you get them techs, and mid game they are useless against the tier two armies. I have never went for them and always chose the book of Lahmia route and to the end of that. Vampire economy is bad especially on legendary, which obsoletes them units pdq.

    @OP,

    I defeated Mousillon and Barrow Legion while on legendary, so, they are beatable, even with tier two legions.







    Even on legendary, they suck real bad, and in my opinion, need buffed(including tier2).




    My heart weeps for the poor vampires. Thats on turn 178 on legendary, and I'm not seeing the ai do any of this thats being suggested. Seriously, I don't see fourteen doomstacks of chaff units, anywhere, period! I'm up against largely tier two armies and thats what caused Bretonnia to fall, but even then, I'd destroyed both Kemmler and Red Duke by that time.
    Post edited by Lucifer on


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  • SaborSabor Posts: 233Registered Users
    edited February 2019
    Kayosiv said:

    Sabor said:

    While I understand the perspective I whole heartedly disagree. While it seems really broken it all comes down to how you choose to play. Personally I like the faction flavor of having endless hoards of zombies thrown at a wall. Not effective, but very thematic and fun to watch.

    People can also choose to bring nothing but a stack of steam tanks and pave the entire map. It comes down to how YOU want to play. If you think 40 stacks is ridiculous (which it is) then don't make that many. Please do not encourage removing faction diversity though. If Skaven got the same upkeep reduction for slaves I would welcome the endless furry tide as well.

    I disagree with your disagreement! (lol)

    I think the game shouldn't allow you to exploit it. The rules in place that make it a game, with a defined set of rules and challenges, should prevent the player from making itself effortless to win. If you "can choose" to have a stack of 19 steam tanks and the AI and game cannot actually do anything to stop you after that point... the game should either end and declare you the winner or just not let you do that.

    If you have to "self regulate" in order for the game to be interesting, it just means the game was balanced wrong.

    There's some argument to be made for it being a "sandbox" style game, but there's difficulty sliders and initial start difficulties. These are clearly trying to regulate the experience and if they can't do that because no matter the difficulty having 10 stacks of free skeletons makes you auto-win, then the game is failing to enforce it's own rules and needs to be changed.
    I sympathize with your point of view, but trying to hinder how someone plays is the wrong way to go about it. While I agree that the game SHOULD discourage you from building a stack of steam tanks, they can't really inhibit you in a way that seems like they are trying to control your sandbox experience.

    Additionally in no way does 10 stacks of skeletons make you auto win anything. Especially on harder difficulties you are hard pressed to take down any form of end game high elf stack unless you commit 5 armies to hopefully dwindle their numbers to a point your main army can easily wipe them off the map. The fact is if you want to send 10 stacks of skeletons to take down 15 dragon's, God speed you crazy mad man.

    In regards to your exploitation comment, it is not an exploit if the game company designed the mechanic to send stacks of weak chaff units to soften up an army. There also comes a point in everyone's campaign when it is not a challenge anymore, you literally pump out elite doom stacks like they are candy because of how much money you rake in. At that point it becomes a clean up of the map and nothing will be able to really challenge the player unless a faction controls half the map. Even then, it is more of a slugfest as opposed to a challenge.

    So if a player wants to spend the time and energy making stacks and stacks of expendable units to wittle down elite armies the same way water eventually wears down a rock in a river, let them. Ultimately it is a single player experience and no one's experience is ruined by anyone else's choices.
  • BaaltorBaaltor Posts: 68Registered Users



    I agree too. Actually I'm in the 50% for skeleton camp started by @endur . Maybe make it -65% to satisfy @Boombastek .

    Yeah I like that idea too. I was thinking that maybe both zombies and skeletons should be 50% off, but then I realised that the zombies are almost free at that point anyways, so it doesn't really matter.
  • sadatosadato Junior Member Posts: 16Registered Users
    The problem is that the tech does not work as intended. It turns the upkeep to 0 instead of -100% so it is not affected by supply lines.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KPosts: 1,854Registered Users
    edited February 2019
    Time to put this to the test on legendary. I'll be using the von Carsteins for this and we'll see how it does. I'll also compare them to the Empire equivilant soldiers and Bretonnias. This is basically a non-issue being made into an issue.

    Legendary von Carstein and things have been not so good. Anyway, turn 20, and I'm under siege having fought for Drakenhof, and I now have -100% upkeep for zombies, but, due to the bad economy on legendary its hard to branch out at first, since you start in the minus perhaps -700 after raising the dead and having your own army you start with at turn 1. Thats of course with recruiting Isabella, which you should since you get the bonus.

    So, in this test, I have the -100% upkeep.




    Already under siege and the sieging army has tier two reinforcements at rank 5 as I get hmm good zombies... The Empire and Bretonnia equivilant are cheaper upkeep solders and spearmen, and they also have better leadership and armour. Not to mention I just wasted the first 20 turns to make zombies that can't even compare in attack or defence... My Skeletal spearmen and infantry, have worse defence by a lot, and are at the start more expensive. It will be another 20 turns before I have soldiers that can somewhat compare, by which time they'll be using tier 2 or better ranked.

    So, I have them. It stil costs me 158 dark magic to recruit a unit that will be annhilated by basic swordsmen of the Empire or Bretonnia, but I have a lot right? Yes, and no, it still costs a lot to recruit them and you'll perhaps get three or four per turn while others are getting better ranked tier two at the same time. Also, if you're trying hard to get tier two units and buildings to counter the enemy attacks, then your dark magic will run out real quick. This might be a great idea for easy level to say normal, but beyond that, it iwll start to get difficult fast. The Empire soldiers although more expensive to recruit, have a much easier economy and trade agreements.

    Compared to Bretonnias peasants, yes, peasants. The peasents start at turn 1, better in defence and attack then it took for you to get free upkeep but still worse attack and defence zombies at turn 20, and the peasants upkeep isn't that much and you can lower this more. Bretonnia, like the Empire, start with good economies and trade.

    At turn 20 onwards, it will cost around 4,000 to make a zombie army and on legendary, nobody is going to do this.

    But, you know what, lets try and see how it goes. I'll go for the zombie armies. It will take me around five turns to get one army, if I can raise the dead also. Thats assuming the enemies I'm at war with, let me.

    Fort Oberstyre:



    As I thought it'd be.




    And again.... the campaign never recovered after that, I lost before turn 30.To prove it: I couldn't even recruit at my two besieged cities.



    But, you know what, maybe I did something wrong, maybe I have to only play a certain way to make it work. Lets try it again, this time as Heinrich Kemmler.
    Post edited by Lucifer on


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein

    My steam workshop Warhammer II mods
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KPosts: 1,854Registered Users
    edited February 2019
    Playing as Heinrich Kemmler, going for the same zombie/skeleton build. I take Gisoreaux, and siege Castle Artois. My legions are zombie heavy, and I have Krell as a summon for the attack. I am also backed by a zombie army, of which stats won't improve much by turn 20.






    I actually think I can win this, even if the auto-resolve says otherwise. I'll play it, and see how it goes. I've already started to go in to the upkeep negative.

    Ok, the enemy has sallied forth! Let the fight begin.




    So, it didn't go as well as I'd hoped, and the enemy armies archers smashed my armies, while their infantry and cav held mine. Two armies down, Gisoreux sacked, and buildings damaged. Not a good start.

    After a few small set backs, I'm again on the offensive. Two legions of the above build, and we retake Gisoreux, this time from Paravon. Artois immediately counterattacks and wipes both my legions out with their better troops. Its time to start considering graveguard infantry, as this build just does not hold on legendary. Good for mass graves or public order issues, I suppose.





    Post edited by Lucifer on


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein

    My steam workshop Warhammer II mods
  • LennoxPoodleLennoxPoodle Posts: 472Registered Users
    Baaltor said:



    I agree too. Actually I'm in the 50% for skeleton camp started by @endur . Maybe make it -65% to satisfy @Boombastek .

    Yeah I like that idea too. I was thinking that maybe both zombies and skeletons should be 50% off, but then I realised that the zombies are almost free at that point anyways, so it doesn't really matter.
    Yeah, I was really just refering to skeletons. Zombies without upkeep are fine IMHO. But even then, it should be more than 50% reduction to the skellies. The problem with 100% is that it makes supply lines irrelevant.
  • BoombastekBoombastek Posts: 2,047Registered Users

    Baaltor said:



    I agree too. Actually I'm in the 50% for skeleton camp started by @endur . Maybe make it -65% to satisfy @Boombastek .

    Yeah I like that idea too. I was thinking that maybe both zombies and skeletons should be 50% off, but then I realised that the zombies are almost free at that point anyways, so it doesn't really matter.
    Yeah, I was really just refering to skeletons. Zombies without upkeep are fine IMHO. But even then, it should be more than 50% reduction to the skellies. The problem with 100% is that it makes supply lines irrelevant.
    You are playing on VH battles? If not, try this legendary and VH, without free skeletons you are gonna expande slower than other race. All VC economy building that at t3+ tier had their pay back is 40 turn. Most of other race had 20-30.

    And try Kemmler legendary. When to you coming endless wave of high elf, try not to use tech on free skeletons, i curious how long you stand.
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