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WAAGH Rework - Army Ability

ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 34,001
edited February 2019 in Balancing Discussions
So I'd be happy if they changed Waagh from a lord ability to an army ability, like Murderous Prowess and Realm of Souls. It should work like this:

1.You have a bar at the top of the screen. That bar has two thresholds, one at one third and one at full

2.You start every fight with the bar filled to one third, enabling a smaller Waagh which is weaker than the current Waagh right off the bat

3.Through fighting and winning or fighting and losing you can fill the bar up. It will fill faster if it's the former and slower if it's the latter.

4.The Waagh you can unleash when the bar is full is stronger than the current Waagh

5.You can unleash the full Waagh only once, after that the bar will stop at the lower threshold

6.If 75+% of your army are gone, you cannot use Waagh at all
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Comments

  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 2,364
    If you did it like that, I think it would be hard to balance. Units would have to be balanced round the bigger waagh which is something you may not a chance to use or only use once it’s too late

    At the moment people almost always get at least one waagh so units are balanced around that
  • UniverseBearUniverseBear Registered Users Posts: 123
    I think that would make it too much like merderous prowess. GS are basically the Gauls of Warhammer total war. They are all about the initial punch and if that doesn't work they start to fall apart. Not having waaagh available off the bat would be counter to the whole playstyle of GS.

    I like waaagh being a army ability instead of a lord one but that's really because hiding your general in the forest whenever facing any tax with arcane unforging gets old and is incredibly un-orky.

    Maybe have a waaagh available right off the bat and then have it recharge by kills your army makes. Not deaths either way. That way GS gets the punch they need early game to be viable but then have to be doing well to get a second or third one. It also differentiates it from murderous prowess more.
  • saellsaell Registered Users Posts: 481
    No make it work like the sword of chaos ability so when a unit gets in charge range their waaagh is activated. And then its recharging in melee like normal. So this way it may not be delayed by cd because it activates automatically
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 689
    saell said:

    No make it work like the sword of chaos ability so when a unit gets in charge range their waaagh is activated. And then its recharging in melee like normal. So this way it may not be delayed by cd because it activates automatically

    Sounds good on paper, but then all the enemy need is a light cav vanguard deployed and your waahgg is triggered in the wind.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?

  • saellsaell Registered Users Posts: 481
    Why if u just ignore them and dont click atack order. It should trigger via attack order and not if just an enemy is in range. So if the units starts its charging animation. So if u just ignore the light cav it wont trigger
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 681
    Maybe just add LD and big charge bonus?

    This way you have to plan when to use it and its somewhat wasted on units already engaged in combat.

    +10 LD and +20 Charge Bonus for 30 seconds.
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 689
    saell said:

    Why if u just ignore them and dont click atack order. It should trigger via attack order and not if just an enemy is in range. So if the units starts its charging animation. So if u just ignore the light cav it wont trigger

    Yeah here it work I guess, just precise it because the Swords of chaos ability activate by itself.

    To me the waahhgg could be rework like this.

    Put the ability like the ushabti summon (separate from anything especially the lord) so you get rid of the gimmiky counters and you don't encourage too much the opponent to snipe the lord.

    The ability itself is an AoE (40m or 55m ?) buff that can be cast everywhere on the map so. It could be one strong buff (maybe even stronger than the actual one tho hopefully not to a **** level) or it could come with a few charges(2?3?) and a short colldown.
    This way you give the ability to the player to choose which key fight he wants to help at any given time a bit like the old waahhg and not just throwing it away at the charge fo the infantry (tho its still a "key moment" in the end". The stats will probably need a rework (again) but it's something CA is way better at doing generally speaking.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    I think that would make it too much like merderous prowess. GS are basically the Gauls of Warhammer total war. They are all about the initial punch and if that doesn't work they start to fall apart. Not having waaagh available off the bat would be counter to the whole playstyle of GS.

    I like waaagh being a army ability instead of a lord one but that's really because hiding your general in the forest whenever facing any tax with arcane unforging gets old and is incredibly un-orky.

    Maybe have a waaagh available right off the bat and then have it recharge by kills your army makes. Not deaths either way. That way GS gets the punch they need early game to be viable but then have to be doing well to get a second or third one. It also differentiates it from murderous prowess more.

    You can choose when to pop the Waagh once you reached either threshold.
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264
    edited February 2019
    Make it a bar you start the battle with that constantly drains. You can slow down the drain by charging and fighting, making it last longer. Some units could also have an ability that when charging they fill the bar instead. This way they can keep momentum going and have their early punch but also can be deprived of it with proper blocking.

    Although I doubt they'll make it a combat bar regardless.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Frook said:

    Make it a bar you start the battle with that constantly drains. You can slow down the drain by charging and fighting, making it last longer. Some units could also have an ability that when charging they fill the bar instead. This way they can keep momentum going and have their early punch but also can be deprived of it with proper blocking.

    Although I doubt they'll make it a combat bar regardless.

    Nah, if it were that way people would deploy as far as possible from them and kite the army to cheese the Waagh away.
  • FrookFrook Registered Users Posts: 264
    Make it not drain until at least one unit is engaged in melee then, maybe even give them a large speed boost while they are at full bar.

    I had in mind you should be able to play around it by not letting the GS get a full engagement but I might be a bit biased.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Frook said:

    Make it not drain until at least one unit is engaged in melee then, maybe even give them a large speed boost while they are at full bar.

    I had in mind you should be able to play around it by not letting the GS get a full engagement but I might be a bit biased.

    With my mechanic, the tactic is to not let them have favorable engagements, which I think is better than just encouraging kiting.
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 515
    I don't get why not just make it a charge bonus?

    It makes the most sense, limits it's application to making the greenskins hit hard and if they miss the charge they miss their waaagh. At the moment you don't want to engage at all, but you should be able to of you get the advantage of the charge.

    It will make goblins less ridiculous, large battlelines less of a sledgehammer and give a smallish boost to damage for a short time.

    I could understand when it was +44ma (that's a lot of damage to add to an attack), but the current bonus is much more manageable and greenskins aren't exactly known for their ability to cycle charge apart from wolf riders (who could use a bit of a buff too).

    Why not make it a charge bonus?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    y4g3r said:

    I don't get why not just make it a charge bonus?

    It makes the most sense, limits it's application to making the greenskins hit hard and if they miss the charge they miss their waaagh. At the moment you don't want to engage at all, but you should be able to of you get the advantage of the charge.

    It will make goblins less ridiculous, large battlelines less of a sledgehammer and give a smallish boost to damage for a short time.

    I could understand when it was +44ma (that's a lot of damage to add to an attack), but the current bonus is much more manageable and greenskins aren't exactly known for their ability to cycle charge apart from wolf riders (who could use a bit of a buff too).

    Why not make it a charge bonus?

    Do you mean it should provide nothing but a charge bonus? No, that would make it too situational and too predictable. It should at the very least carry an increase in WS too. Greenskins under the Waagh should be swinging their weapons with all their might.
  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 515
    Why? I have no problem with it adding to ws, just not with an insane number like +44.

    It should just be a charge bonus. That's what Waaagh! is. It would stop ppl from avoiding engagements, because currently it doesn't matter if you engage well, you will still get punished.

    Make the duration of the buff last longer, but make it a charge bonus.
  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Registered Users Posts: 898
    How this would stop avoiding the waaagh? As long as GS have a mapwide buff to whatever stat,faction with faster infantry will always try to avoid that... CB alone would not change that. Speed + CB would Maybe,but CA doesen't Want to have big buff to speed because it's a problem for animation
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 6,959
    I support making it a buff to CB because it adds some counter-play. For example by netting or soaking the charge with chaff there are more options to mitigate the damage without having to kite it. IMHO it adds skill to it, from both sides. I also would like that CB to be relative instead of absolute, so rather +80% CB than +30 or whatever, just to avoid making defensive chaff units hit too hard on the charge.

    The CB also adds to WS, but lasts for a shorter time. Thanks to this natural decay of the CB effect though, one could actually afford to let the waagh last longer as an army wide buff, for example 45 seconds if deemed necessary.
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  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,298
    edited February 2019
    I personally like the mechanic better as it is because I think it is more unique this way.
    It makes more sense lorewise as well because in the lore if I am not mistaken a strong leader is required to trigger a waaagh. I don't think leaderless greenskin can unite in a waagh?

    Not to mention if you bring strong fighters you can get multiple waaghs off if you are tactical about what you have your lord engage and how you protect it.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 446
    edited February 2019
    It makes more sense how current Waagh works, though current Waagh needs some nerfs. Mapwide +20 MA buff for 30 seconds on the initial engagement is still too much.

    The best thing that could be done, from my point of view, is to increase all GS lords cost by 100 and make Waaagh a bound ability for them. That way it makes Waagh feel more like a faction trait. This would be a buff as they will have access to it since the start on campaign and the cost increase on lords would be cheaper than the current cost of the ability on MP. However, the MA buff should go down to just +10 and maybe the recharge could be reduced by 10 seconds.
  • PocmanPocman Registered Users Posts: 5,201
    I am the only one who thinks Murderous prowess in its current incarnation makes much more sense as the Waaagh for GS, while DEs should get something different?


  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Registered Users Posts: 898
    Pocman said:

    I am the only one who thinks Murderous prowess in its current incarnation makes much more sense as the Waaagh for GS, while DEs should get something different?


    Waaagh represent the brutality of the orcish fightiness in the firsts few moment of the battle. Having it pop at middle/late game is not how it should work i think. Waaagh should be brutal and focused in the first engagement,and tied to a Warlord...problem is that no matter how nerfed the MA is,but as long as they have a mapwide buff no One in his right mind would ever fight them in a squadre engagement while buffed when they can fight them weaker 30 seconds later. Kite will always be a problem i think. And buff to CB are not that impactfull (see Orion horn)
  • ImpartialHorseImpartialHorse Registered Users Posts: 602

    Pocman said:

    I am the only one who thinks Murderous prowess in its current incarnation makes much more sense as the Waaagh for GS, while DEs should get something different?


    Waaagh represent the brutality of the orcish fightiness in the firsts few moment of the battle. Having it pop at middle/late game is not how it should work i think. Waaagh should be brutal and focused in the first engagement,and tied to a Warlord...problem is that no matter how nerfed the MA is,but as long as they have a mapwide buff no One in his right mind would ever fight them in a squadre engagement while buffed when they can fight them weaker 30 seconds later. Kite will always be a problem i think. And buff to CB are not that impactfull (see Orion horn)
    This pretty much. Pure % CB also has the effect of boosting cav the most, so would take away from the infantry focussed game they have atm.

    If people are most bothered about it's effect on goblin units (despite the leadership issues), then if it was made a race ability it could be split to have different buff strengths on orc and goblin units, but this won't really solve the incentive to kite GS.

    The current incarnation of waagh can be fought in the frontline using your own buffs debuffs and elites, especially if you aim for at least a somewhat staggered engagement, but the incentive to kite will always be there.
  • HorseWithNoNameHorseWithNoName Registered Users Posts: 1,001
    I have suggested this before somewhere, but imo an additional requirement to Waaagh would be good. For example, if it only works on units winning combat or depending on leadership, it would introduce some counterplay for the opponent (flanking/numbers advantage in those cases). I think if the opponent should have a reasonable chance to interact with the mechanic. Otherwise, it cannot be impactful.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    I have suggested this before somewhere, but imo an additional requirement to Waaagh would be good. For example, if it only works on units winning combat or depending on leadership, it would introduce some counterplay for the opponent (flanking/numbers advantage in those cases). I think if the opponent should have a reasonable chance to interact with the mechanic. Otherwise, it cannot be impactful.

    Murderous Prowess and Realm Of Souls cannot really be manipulated, so why should Waagh have such a weakness? Why must GS always be stuck behind Elves and Undead?
  • griffithxigriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 1,298

    I have suggested this before somewhere, but imo an additional requirement to Waaagh would be good. For example, if it only works on units winning combat or depending on leadership, it would introduce some counterplay for the opponent (flanking/numbers advantage in those cases). I think if the opponent should have a reasonable chance to interact with the mechanic. Otherwise, it cannot be impactful.

    Murderous Prowess and Realm Of Souls cannot really be manipulated, so why should Waagh have such a weakness? Why must GS always be stuck behind Elves and Undead?
    I don't think that is true. Murderous prowess can be manipulated a bit from both sides by targeting the enemies that will get the strongest buffs and taking them out first before the chaff can trigger the ability.
    In the inverse it can be worth it for DE to bring more chaff and hide their strongest units or hold them back for a while to make sure they are strong during the MP proc.

    Realm of souls can be manipulated by focused damage. Whether you do it with range or the overpower technique of throwing a lot of strong units into one unit at a time while the rest of the army stalls. The opponent will get less heals if most of his army is undamaged and 1 or two units are very badly damaged for the first proc and then completely gone for the second and third proc.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001

    I have suggested this before somewhere, but imo an additional requirement to Waaagh would be good. For example, if it only works on units winning combat or depending on leadership, it would introduce some counterplay for the opponent (flanking/numbers advantage in those cases). I think if the opponent should have a reasonable chance to interact with the mechanic. Otherwise, it cannot be impactful.

    Murderous Prowess and Realm Of Souls cannot really be manipulated, so why should Waagh have such a weakness? Why must GS always be stuck behind Elves and Undead?
    I don't think that is true. Murderous prowess can be manipulated a bit from both sides by targeting the enemies that will get the strongest buffs and taking them out first before the chaff can trigger the ability.
    In the inverse it can be worth it for DE to bring more chaff and hide their strongest units or hold them back for a while to make sure they are strong during the MP proc.

    Realm of souls can be manipulated by focused damage. Whether you do it with range or the overpower technique of throwing a lot of strong units into one unit at a time while the rest of the army stalls. The opponent will get less heals if most of his army is undamaged and 1 or two units are very badly damaged for the first proc and then completely gone for the second and third proc.
    The only time you might successfully manipulate this is in SP thanks to the AI's various quirks. In MP, forget about it.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,608
    edited February 2019
    Eh, consciously or not, MP is not likely to go off for DE until their elite units are heavily damaged if not outright destroyed, and often times the most critical units like cavalry/elite infantry have long won/lost their engagements so the buff is moot. Realm of souls delivers a nice heal, but lets be honest, it doesnt affect almost any of the TK heavy hitters, its entirely possible the full cast wont be procced until TK elites are trash canned and the heal itself isnt the hugest thing ever. The summon is imo very poorly designed atm and should be a bound summon within 60m of the TK lord(even if this came with a slight discount), but otherwise the ability is pretty tame and isnt that domineering. Also, depending on what units you focus, your opponent might not even get good value out of it for the parts of their force that arent engaged/are lightly engaged.
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