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Why is CA wasting time on flops like britania and 3K?

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  • dchip1dchip1 Posts: 460Registered Users
    LOL.

    A few things:

    1. Three Kingdoms fits Total War like Peanut Butter and Chocolate...its a great match so get out of here with "ITS ALL ABOUT THE CHINESE MARKET" crap. I don't remember the giant Influx of Italian, Turkish, Russian money/players or whoever is going around saying they're the "true" decedents of the Roman Empire when Rome was released. Likewise it wasn't like everyone in the West shat a brick and refused to buy Shogun or Shogun II because it wasn't based on their history (well I guess they had that expansion for 2). The fact is Three Kingdoms is a great fit for total war with the different factions, massive battles, and crazy amount of named generals and heroes. Plus its been proven a hit in the West I mean **** Koei keeps releasing Dynasty Warrior Games and Romance of the Three Kingdom (VG series) has been around since the NES and is on 13 with a PS4 release date. Saying this is all based on the lucrative Chinese Market is stupid. If you can tap that market great and I bet CA is trying to rn by aggressive marketing and such but honestly its not like the game won't be a hit in the West if it doesn't launch like Rome 2 or Empire. Like China may have a giant population, a growing powerful consumer class, and seem like a good bet but there's a lot to do in that market from an IP standpoint, Piracy, and just the sheer amount of work to be done for localization due to naming conventions that don't line up well in the West.

    2. Profit is Profit. If you break even....that means ALL OF YOUR EXPENSES WERE PAID INCLUDING EVERYONE'S SALARY. So the talk about IP Licensing somehow being a turn off is dumb. Profits may decline but if they're making millions in profit you can bet your ass they don't mind paying a royalty to GW. Sure history may be free, but I bet they're paying a variety of software licensing fees regardless, the IP licencing for Warhammer is a factor they have to calculate when making estimates but damn its past game 2 and they're making money, definitely not going to stop because of a percentage when they have millions in profit. Now what will hurt them is say 3K tanking, could disrupt the **** out of their studio.

    3. Yeah ToB didn't make sense to me either, but 3K is like the next bread and butter Historical title even if it has a fantasy element. Like this is what made CA , historical titles, so I don't think its a waste or anything. ToB was a different case though, it was using old tech at a budget price for a small but interesting bit of British history. The problem was it wasn't really that cheap but it wasn't really a full TW game. It was sort of this weird case of not enough for the money plus it was on the heels of the Norsca issue which **** everyone off as it siphoned news updates away it seemed at the time.

    4. I probably won't buy 3k at launch but that's because I love TWW2. Seriously its my favorite strategy game of all time and I can confidently say it. I'd actually normally be psyched for 3k but idk if I can go back to a battlefield without dragons, Vampires, Giants. Cannons, Knights, Dinos, Rat guy Doomwheels, etc. Though I am really really interested in the game's non-batttle features as I think it may be the start of a new age of TW diplomacy and I'm psyched. But also I will whine if the next news update isn't TWW2 focused.
  • steph74steph74 Junior Member Posts: 781Registered Users
    3K doing well = money for CA = resources to develop game = good for WTW. That's very simple.


  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,083Registered Users
    Why is a certain unnamed condiment manufacturer wasting time on other condiments when certain people only like ketchup?

    Fact of the matter is that some people don't like ketchup and even those that do might like some variety. They may even grow bored of ketchup entirely for a while. There is a market for other condiments, so it is usually a sound business decision.

    Now, replace ketchup with TW:Warhammer and condiments with Total War titles... you should pretty much have your answer.
  • KronusXKronusX Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    steph74 said:

    3K doing well = money for CA = resources to develop game = good for WTW. That's very simple.



    Or

    3K doing well = money for CA = resources to develop game = WTW team gets even smaller and more members assigned to 3K, resulting in more 3K DLC and even less WH DLC
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 12,659Registered Users, Moderators
    This is pretty clearly a business discussion. Moving it to Off Topic.
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  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Posts: 1,942Registered Users

    from all the documentarys I have seen about china there was never anyone playing video games or anything gaming related.

    standard workers in china have like 2-3 hours free time per day.

    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-07-05-chinese-games-market-is-the-worlds-biggest-at-USD25-6bn

    Don't let facts get in the way of making a statement. My hope is you were being sarcastic.
    mobile and free to play games.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 14,596Registered Users
    Well that's a completely baseless statement. We simply don't know how well 3k has done. It's not even out yet.

    Historial is CA's bread and butter, them doing historical games should not be a surprise.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,625Registered Users

    from all the documentarys I have seen about china there was never anyone playing video games or anything gaming related.

    standard workers in china have like 2-3 hours free time per day.

    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-07-05-chinese-games-market-is-the-worlds-biggest-at-USD25-6bn

    Don't let facts get in the way of making a statement. My hope is you were being sarcastic.
    mobile and free to play games.
    Not really, the PC market is worth 6 billion, that on its own is the largest PC game market.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 2,790Registered Users
    I completely disagree that 3k wont be successful. There are still plenty of historical title guys floating around that will buy it upfront or at some point. I've been playing Total War titles, I didn't come here for Warhammer. I did, however, get involved for Warhammer.

    Shogun was a success, anyone here not playing it cause it was foreign? Or really any single European titles full of titles and people I have no relation to? I've wanted an ancient China total war for sometime. They had interest politics, unique armies and devices, and some wonderful war torn periods. Heck, I hope the next major title they make is the Mongolian Hordes. I'd love to conquer from China over to eastern europe and mesopotamia for the largest land empire that has now or ever existed. There might be some aim to break into the Chinese market, it's kinda dumb to say there isn't. They are advertising such. They are putting chinese below the english announcements but did they drop other languages for the rest? Nah.

    So are they appealing to China? Yes. Did they expect the american and euro audiences to ignore it? No more than we ignored Shogun. It's just a bad point.

    Warhammer is still by and large profitable, it still earned the company a heft sum of pure cash with a title that was a near guarunteed success where as any may or may not be.. But did people expect them to ignore historical titles for 3 warhammer titles? We already knew 3k was coming when Warhmmer was coming. It was a big giant duh that at some point a major not Warhammer title was going to land. And I for one don't mind that historical fans are still getting a game. Nor is it not like I'm going to get my trilogy finish.
  • psychoakpsychoak Posts: 2,128Registered Users
    People really need to stop comparing the low cost saga entry to flagship releases.

    3K is Shogun, Medieval, Rome, Empire. It's not TOB. It's not even Atilla, or Napoleon.

    TOB might have even been profitable, for all you doom and gloomers.

    Anyone not aware that they're after the Chinese market, should probably try to read that strange looking text in the advertisements.
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,285Registered Users
    There are separate teams.

    I bought every TW since Med 1.

    Since ToB, I will only buy WH.

    The teams are separate, and so should be our cash.

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,549Registered Users
    KronusX said:

    steph74 said:

    3K doing well = money for CA = resources to develop game = good for WTW. That's very simple.



    Or

    3K doing well = money for CA = resources to develop game = WTW team gets even smaller and more members assigned to 3K, resulting in more 3K DLC and even less WH DLC
    Way more probable.
  • CommisarCommisar Senior Member Posts: 1,180Registered Users
    Xenos7 said:

    KronusX said:

    steph74 said:

    3K doing well = money for CA = resources to develop game = good for WTW. That's very simple.



    Or

    3K doing well = money for CA = resources to develop game = WTW team gets even smaller and more members assigned to 3K, resulting in more 3K DLC and even less WH DLC
    Way more probable.
    At which point 3K will be more profitable than WH for them. Why else would they spend more money on it than WH?
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,049Registered Users
    edited February 17
    Yeah then they dont have give a chunk to GW.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • GCRustGCRust Posts: 604Registered Users
    I'm more amazed the OP is from the future since they seem to know for a fact 3K is going to flop.
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Posts: 1,071Registered Users
    twwatcher said:

    I can give you one reason, from the latest CA financial report published 07/01/19 for year ending 31/04/18, introduction:



    Similarly from GW's latest report:



    The GW IP is not cheap. History is free to everybody.

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03425917/filing-history

    https://investor.games-workshop.com/annual-reports-and-half-year-results/

    It must be pretty cheap if they're making less than 6 million a year in royalties from dozens of games.

    WHTW
    WHTW2
    Vermintide
    Vermintide2
    Mechanicus
    Space Marine
    Space Hulk
    Battle Fleet Gothica
    Blood Bowl
    Eisenhorn
    Regicide
    Dawn of War
    DoW2
    DoW3
    The Horus Heresy
    Warhammer Quest
    and more

  • Firkraag888Firkraag888 Posts: 1,044Registered Users

    twwatcher said:

    I can give you one reason, from the latest CA financial report published 07/01/19 for year ending 31/04/18, introduction:



    Similarly from GW's latest report:



    The GW IP is not cheap. History is free to everybody.

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03425917/filing-history

    https://investor.games-workshop.com/annual-reports-and-half-year-results/

    It must be pretty cheap if they're making less than 6 million a year in royalties from dozens of games.

    WHTW
    WHTW2
    Vermintide
    Vermintide2
    Mechanicus
    Space Marine
    Space Hulk
    Battle Fleet Gothica
    Blood Bowl
    Eisenhorn
    Regicide
    Dawn of War
    DoW2
    DoW3
    The Horus Heresy
    Warhammer Quest
    and more

    That was for 6 months not a year and it was in british pounds. So in US dollars dollars for one year probably something like $20million.

  • twwatchertwwatcher Posts: 2,086Registered Users

    twwatcher said:

    I can give you one reason, from the latest CA financial report published 07/01/19 for year ending 31/04/18, introduction:



    Similarly from GW's latest report:



    The GW IP is not cheap. History is free to everybody.

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03425917/filing-history

    https://investor.games-workshop.com/annual-reports-and-half-year-results/

    It must be pretty cheap if they're making less than 6 million a year in royalties from dozens of games.

    WHTW
    WHTW2
    Vermintide
    Vermintide2
    Mechanicus
    Space Marine
    Space Hulk
    Battle Fleet Gothica
    Blood Bowl
    Eisenhorn
    Regicide
    Dawn of War
    DoW2
    DoW3
    The Horus Heresy
    Warhammer Quest
    and more

    It’s the CA statement that is key – operating profit levels are lower due to reduced operating margins from third party development agreements.

    I have assumed “development agreements” refers to the Total War Warhammer games and the obvious additional cost here is the cost of the license (the GW figures just highlight that we are probably talking million(s) here not 100,000 of GBP).

    If this is not a factor then it can only refer to higher production costs in general for these games. So whatever the factors behind CA’s financial statement it is one reason why CA still sees historical titles as a revenue stream worth pursuing.
  • chrissher7chrissher7 Junior Member Posts: 2,038Registered Users
    edited February 18
    Nyxilis said:

    I completely disagree that 3k wont be successful. There are still plenty of historical title guys floating around that will buy it upfront or at some point. I've been playing Total War titles, I didn't come here for Warhammer. I did, however, get involved for Warhammer.

    Shogun was a success, anyone here not playing it cause it was foreign? Or really any single European titles full of titles and people I have no relation to? I've wanted an ancient China total war for sometime. They had interest politics, unique armies and devices, and some wonderful war torn periods. Heck, I hope the next major title they make is the Mongolian Hordes. I'd love to conquer from China over to eastern europe and mesopotamia for the largest land empire that has now or ever existed. There might be some aim to break into the Chinese market, it's kinda dumb to say there isn't. They are advertising such. They are putting chinese below the english announcements but did they drop other languages for the rest? Nah.

    So are they appealing to China? Yes. Did they expect the american and euro audiences to ignore it? No more than we ignored Shogun. It's just a bad point.

    Warhammer is still by and large profitable, it still earned the company a heft sum of pure cash with a title that was a near guarunteed success where as any may or may not be.. But did people expect them to ignore historical titles for 3 warhammer titles? We already knew 3k was coming when Warhmmer was coming. It was a big giant duh that at some point a major not Warhammer title was going to land. And I for one don't mind that historical fans are still getting a game. Nor is it not like I'm going to get my trilogy finish.

    Exactly although it is annoying in obstructing warhammer progress it will be profitable although long term it will hopefully make less than warhammer so that goes back to being focus.

  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,549Registered Users

    Yeah then they dont have give a chunk to GW.

    They also don't have to design new models and animations. Historical titles will always be successful because of how little they cost to produce compared to fictional ones.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 2,790Registered Users

    Nyxilis said:

    I completely disagree that 3k wont be successful. There are still plenty of historical title guys floating around that will buy it upfront or at some point. I've been playing Total War titles, I didn't come here for Warhammer. I did, however, get involved for Warhammer.

    Shogun was a success, anyone here not playing it cause it was foreign? Or really any single European titles full of titles and people I have no relation to? I've wanted an ancient China total war for sometime. They had interest politics, unique armies and devices, and some wonderful war torn periods. Heck, I hope the next major title they make is the Mongolian Hordes. I'd love to conquer from China over to eastern europe and mesopotamia for the largest land empire that has now or ever existed. There might be some aim to break into the Chinese market, it's kinda dumb to say there isn't. They are advertising such. They are putting chinese below the english announcements but did they drop other languages for the rest? Nah.

    So are they appealing to China? Yes. Did they expect the american and euro audiences to ignore it? No more than we ignored Shogun. It's just a bad point.

    Warhammer is still by and large profitable, it still earned the company a heft sum of pure cash with a title that was a near guarunteed success where as any may or may not be.. But did people expect them to ignore historical titles for 3 warhammer titles? We already knew 3k was coming when Warhmmer was coming. It was a big giant duh that at some point a major not Warhammer title was going to land. And I for one don't mind that historical fans are still getting a game. Nor is it not like I'm going to get my trilogy finish.

    Exactly although it is annoying in obstructing warhammer progress it will be profitable although long term it will hopefully make less than warhammer so that goes back to being focus.
    It was always going to. We knew it was coming, we knew it was in development when Warhammer 1 wasn't even released yet. There was going to be a historical title released somewhere in the midst of it. You can't expect a company that was built on those historical titles to ignore that, or the fanbase that will still be here when Warhammer moves on. That license isn't forever. Maybe they'll do it again years later, maybe they will never.

    And hoping it makes less? Is just hoping that CA fails, that it says everything new they tried in it was no good. That CA overall has less money for every other title. Game companies also don't with losses. They can dissolve or lay off massive staff for flops. It's going to get some focus no matter what.

    I hope 3k is a success. I really do. I will not be the fool who thinks chewing off a leg the company stands on will do better for the other leg.
  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKPosts: 35,669Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Side conversation removed. Please focus on the topic and not each other: use the Private Message system for personal conversations if you really must have them, bearing in mind that the forum terms and conditions still apply.

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  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Posts: 1,466Registered Users

    Side conversation removed. Please focus on the topic and not each other: use the Private Message system for personal conversations if you really must have them, bearing in mind that the forum terms and conditions still apply.

    Really? I seem to be missing some entirely on-topic posts.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,625Registered Users

    Side conversation removed. Please focus on the topic and not each other: use the Private Message system for personal conversations if you really must have them, bearing in mind that the forum terms and conditions still apply.

    Really? I seem to be missing some entirely on-topic posts.
    1.3 Commenting on a decision/action made by a volunteer moderator or CA staff member is not allowed .
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Posts: 1,466Registered Users

    Side conversation removed. Please focus on the topic and not each other: use the Private Message system for personal conversations if you really must have them, bearing in mind that the forum terms and conditions still apply.

    Really? I seem to be missing some entirely on-topic posts.
    1.3 Commenting on a decision/action made by a volunteer moderator or CA staff member is not allowed .
    Well I think I found the reason why.
  • takilung31takilung31 Posts: 1,318Registered Users
    If 3K does well we might get to see Cathay for warhammer 3 since its marketing and money. Potential profit and revenue for CA they won't miss that

    If it fails there's 0 chance of Cathay happening. Sad fact but it's true

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,625Registered Users

    If 3K does well we might get to see Cathay for warhammer 3 since its marketing and money. Potential profit and revenue for CA they won't miss that

    If it fails there's 0 chance of Cathay happening. Sad fact but it's true

    I'd love to see them really invest in WH beyond game 3.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 2,790Registered Users

    If 3K does well we might get to see Cathay for warhammer 3 since its marketing and money. Potential profit and revenue for CA they won't miss that

    If it fails there's 0 chance of Cathay happening. Sad fact but it's true

    I'd love to see them really invest in WH beyond game 3.
    Something that's less likely to happen overall if 3k flops. They're not going to take gambles on things like Hobgoblins or other minor factions, or cross factions if they just suffered a loss with 3k. It would make it all lower budget, safe bare minimum plays.

    People who hope for a 3k flop are clueless to the game industry and just want to shoot their own foot.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 3,625Registered Users
    Nyxilis said:

    If 3K does well we might get to see Cathay for warhammer 3 since its marketing and money. Potential profit and revenue for CA they won't miss that

    If it fails there's 0 chance of Cathay happening. Sad fact but it's true

    I'd love to see them really invest in WH beyond game 3.
    Something that's less likely to happen overall if 3k flops. They're not going to take gambles on things like Hobgoblins or other minor factions, or cross factions if they just suffered a loss with 3k. It would make it all lower budget, safe bare minimum plays.

    People who hope for a 3k flop are clueless to the game industry and just want to shoot their own foot.
    I honestly don't think 3K will flop, so I'm not overly worried in that sense. I believe that there is hunger for more WH content, hunger that surpasses R2 for sure. Sure it's a clear cash cow but I don't really mind, they're creating content I'm interested in.
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Posts: 1,466Registered Users
    Nyxilis said:

    If 3K does well we might get to see Cathay for warhammer 3 since its marketing and money. Potential profit and revenue for CA they won't miss that

    If it fails there's 0 chance of Cathay happening. Sad fact but it's true

    I'd love to see them really invest in WH beyond game 3.
    Something that's less likely to happen overall if 3k flops. They're not going to take gambles on things like Hobgoblins or other minor factions, or cross factions if they just suffered a loss with 3k. It would make it all lower budget, safe bare minimum plays.

    People who hope for a 3k flop are clueless to the game industry and just want to shoot their own foot.
    People actually think this.

    Empire was a massive success. It didn't stop CA being the most-conservative they have ever been when it came to making Shogun 2. Did sales cause that? No, it was the fact that Empire was(and still is) broken. It was released far too soon and people burned by it avoided Napoleon. We can thank Sega for forcing the Feb 2009 release. It makes sense then to make a much smaller and less ambitious game, so if Sega were just as inflexible again it's more likely that Shogun 2 would release on time in a better state as there were less plates to keep spinning. Shogun 2 did benefit from this; CA accidentally churned out the best game they have and will ever make. Shame they learned all the wrong lessons from the experience.

    Rome 2 failed so badly it was on-sale at a 50% discount just 3 months after release. CA blew smoke over the state of the game, doing the usual game industry thing of claiming 'only a few players are affected' yet there was no one piece of footage from outside of CA showing the game as it should be. Rome 2 recovered eventually, but Attila also bombed and didn't recover, no matter how well-received Age of Charlamagne was.

    What happened after? CA announce Warhammer, hinting at a trilogy with a combined campaign connecting them: the single most ambitious project they have ever done.

    So if commercial successes can get followed by smaller-scale projects and flops get followed by excessive ambition, what would actually have to happen for you to discontinue believing 3K flopping would be bad for us and Total War overall? CA have been complacent for over a decade now; if anything the few shocks they've had were not hard enough to shake them out of it.
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