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Lore Question: Did the Empire and Britonnia ever fight a war?

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  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,353Registered Users, Moderators
    edited February 17
    This is what I meant by needing to calm down or people would start insulting each other. Here, let me put on my moderator voice... ahem...

    Please refrain from taunting each other and discuss the topic as originally posted. This is the second warning. -Canuovea
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  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users
    edited February 17
    The problem is that the Empire is not so often the aggressor.
    It's the "seasonal" Bretonnia that usually attacks the Empire when it is at its weakest point.

    The only time when the Empire went full mad (as Bretonnia is as now) was just after the Crusades and explained in the 2nd edition roleplay: The Empire went on a full scale invasion of its neighbours on a period of completely absent activity of the Empire former enemies. (if you put all the sources together you discover than in 1550 I.C the Skaven are already forgotten, Beastmen raids occured less often and Greenskins were all over defeated past the Black Fire Pass and the Dwarfs were even resurgent in some occasions)

    The Empire conquered even Northern Tilea with Miragliano in its hands, dared to insult the Phoenix King (who's response was Marienburg First Raze), Montfort Duchy was conquered several times by Imperial Armies (it's a roleplay thing, but even said by Saltzpyre in Vermintide 2, and one of the two reasons why Duke Folcard is a douche in that game, the other is the Battle of Monfort, where he slaughtered a whole Imperial Army from Reikland despite being outnumbered, so he is not prone to help Imperials at all)
  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Posts: 10,165Registered Users
    Canuovea said:

    This is what I meant by needing to calm down or people would start insulting each other. Here, let me put on my moderator voice... ahem...

    Please refrain from taunting each other and discuss the topic as originally posted. This is the second warning. -Canuovea

    you had your voice switched to "helium" instead of mod. Reduced the authority it carried a bit.
    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD! Clan Gunnisson! Karak Eight Peaks! JOSEF BUGMAN!"

    CA hates the Empire confirmed. The FLC LL for the new Lord Pack is Gor-Rok. Meaning the Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. And no, moving Balthasar Gelt from Reikland, where he should be, DOES NOT COUNT. If they wanted a LL in the Southern Empire: Marius Leitdorf of Averland or maybe Elspeth von Draken in Nuln...

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him?

    GHAL MARAZ IS THE WEAPON OF THE SETTING! YET SOME BRETONNIAN SWORD IS MORE POTENT?! BUFF GHAL MARAZ IN SIGMAR'S NAME!
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,353Registered Users, Moderators
    edited February 18

    Canuovea said:

    This is what I meant by needing to calm down or people would start insulting each other. Here, let me put on my moderator voice... ahem...

    Please refrain from taunting each other and discuss the topic as originally posted. This is the second warning. -Canuovea

    you had your voice switched to "helium" instead of mod. Reduced the authority it carried a bit.
    Hahah, well, I prefer people to be comfortable challenging my position when I am posting as a contributor to a thread, as in such a case I do so without moderator authority. I should perhaps take to using my colour coded non-helium mod voice more to clearly differentiate.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -The "Spam" flag is not a "disagree" flag. Have a care.
    -...No, no the "Abuse" flag isn't a "disagree" flag either!
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,998Registered Users
    edited February 18
    Kranox said:

    Ares354 said:

    About the Great War Against Chaos:

    No one really knows how Asavar Kul died. The consensus in the Empire is that he died in single combat with Magnus the Pious, which is of course a powerful propaganda tool. But there are many differing accounts in the Warhammer lore regarding this detail. Some accoutns state that Asavar Kul was mowed down in the charge of the amassed knights, pierced by a nameless hero's lance. Other accoutns say that he survived the battle, but was later torn apart by would be usurpers in his army. It is just "one of those cases", when it comes to the canon of the lore.

    Also, remember that three of the most powerful High Elf Archmages were present, with one of them being one of the most powerful spellcasters to have ever existed, Teclis.

    And contrary to popular belief, Kholek Suneater was not actually present at the final battle. Kholek was only with Asavar's host until the desecration of Praag, after which Kholek wandered off on his own back to the northeren wastes.

    About Kholek, he torned down most heavily fortified city in Kislev, Praag wall where superior to Kislev ones, so HE has done heavy lifting for chaos troops.

    Yes you see, HE did help Empire and Dawi in fight vs Chaos, what was doing "heroic", full of duty, honorable Bretonnia ?

    Bretonnia do help in the End times, they still have their **** to deal with.

    They saved Altdorf after most of their population died of plague and that a Massive civil war gked them up.

    Your biais is a bit too clear.
    End Times is mess, so I wont even talk about that "pice of art" made by GW to kill of Warhammer.

    My bias is as big for Empire, as your is for Bretonnia, so you hardly good Judge
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 1,920Registered Users

    The problem is that the Empire is not so often the aggressor.
    It's the "seasonal" Bretonnia that usually attacks the Empire when it is at its weakest point.

    The only time when the Empire went full mad (as Bretonnia is as now) was just after the Crusades and explained in the 2nd edition roleplay: The Empire went on a full scale invasion of its neighbours on a period of completely absent activity of the Empire former enemies. (if you put all the sources together you discover than in 1550 I.C the Skaven are already forgotten, Beastmen raids occured less often and Greenskins were all over defeated past the Black Fire Pass and the Dwarfs were even resurgent in some occasions)

    The Empire conquered even Northern Tilea with Miragliano in its hands, dared to insult the Phoenix King (who's response was Marienburg First Raze), Montfort Duchy was conquered several times by Imperial Armies (it's a roleplay thing, but even said by Saltzpyre in Vermintide 2, and one of the two reasons why Duke Folcard is a douche in that game, the other is the Battle of Monfort, where he slaughtered a whole Imperial Army from Reikland despite being outnumbered, so he is not prone to help Imperials at all)

    The 1500s was the time of Gorthor the Beastlord, who practically destroyed two Elector states, and a civil war broke out in the Empire in the years following... Do not look to the Warhammer RPG for any kind of reliable lore.

    The only canon areas of conflict between the Empire and Bretonnia are parts of the Wasteland surrounding Marienburg, and between Helmgart and Montfort. Usually it is only miniscule gain either faction makes, specifically because both sides want to avoid a full scale war.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,401Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    Kranox said:

    Ares354 said:

    About the Great War Against Chaos:

    No one really knows how Asavar Kul died. The consensus in the Empire is that he died in single combat with Magnus the Pious, which is of course a powerful propaganda tool. But there are many differing accounts in the Warhammer lore regarding this detail. Some accoutns state that Asavar Kul was mowed down in the charge of the amassed knights, pierced by a nameless hero's lance. Other accoutns say that he survived the battle, but was later torn apart by would be usurpers in his army. It is just "one of those cases", when it comes to the canon of the lore.

    Also, remember that three of the most powerful High Elf Archmages were present, with one of them being one of the most powerful spellcasters to have ever existed, Teclis.

    And contrary to popular belief, Kholek Suneater was not actually present at the final battle. Kholek was only with Asavar's host until the desecration of Praag, after which Kholek wandered off on his own back to the northeren wastes.

    About Kholek, he torned down most heavily fortified city in Kislev, Praag wall where superior to Kislev ones, so HE has done heavy lifting for chaos troops.

    Yes you see, HE did help Empire and Dawi in fight vs Chaos, what was doing "heroic", full of duty, honorable Bretonnia ?

    Bretonnia do help in the End times, they still have their **** to deal with.

    They saved Altdorf after most of their population died of plague and that a Massive civil war gked them up.

    Your biais is a bit too clear.
    End Times is mess, so I wont even talk about that "pice of art" made by GW to kill of Warhammer.

    My bias is as big for Empire, as your is for Bretonnia, so you hardly good Judge
    How ? Said the Empire is the supperior force, Bretonnia has no chance at attacking the Empire, but realisticly the Empire would not be sure to take bretonnia and would most likely be pushed back for the hundreds of reasons I gave before


  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,125Registered Users
    Yeah, Grail Knights are super chaos human level. Want to know who has defeated Chaos every single time until End Times? The Empire.

    Want to know who got mollywhopped by Chaos and barely contributed to the final fight? Bretonnia.

    I'm not dismissing for a second that Bretonnia doesn't have power. Sure, every single army that comes to battle in Warhammer has some doomsday super human thing. But even Chaos Warriors will die to a cannon blast. To hails of bullets. To steam tanks running them over. They are super human, but they are not immortal.

    Green Knight is, but he's still unreliable. Half the time when he shows up Bretonnia is losing to undead, to various factions. So those super human grail knights? Losing. Cause, they've lost plenty of times in lore.

    North Bretonnia that empty lil area north of the main faction of them? It's empty. Know why? Lore says Norscans have burned every village and toppled every castle north of main kingdom. Know who has prevented that in the empire? Nordland. Past history Norscans have cut deep and killed plenty of those super human grail knights.

    So bad asses sure, but they still die. Green Knight may or may not show up. Bretonnia has lost battles, and it's always described as disastrous as many super soldiers are dead and they can't just bring more. Empire can.

    And of course, Bretonnia has nothing on Empire defenses. Imperial castles and cannons have in past lore stood against antiquated siege methods and cavalry. And most of the empire is layered in hills, fortresses, forests, rivers, and creek beds. All places to push that Bretonnia cavalry into and mitigate any kind of real campaign.

    Marienburg, a mere remnant of the empire has resisted all Bretonnia attempts to conquer them. So much for those super human attempts~
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,998Registered Users
    Kranox said:

    Ares354 said:

    Kranox said:

    Ares354 said:

    About the Great War Against Chaos:

    No one really knows how Asavar Kul died. The consensus in the Empire is that he died in single combat with Magnus the Pious, which is of course a powerful propaganda tool. But there are many differing accounts in the Warhammer lore regarding this detail. Some accoutns state that Asavar Kul was mowed down in the charge of the amassed knights, pierced by a nameless hero's lance. Other accoutns say that he survived the battle, but was later torn apart by would be usurpers in his army. It is just "one of those cases", when it comes to the canon of the lore.

    Also, remember that three of the most powerful High Elf Archmages were present, with one of them being one of the most powerful spellcasters to have ever existed, Teclis.

    And contrary to popular belief, Kholek Suneater was not actually present at the final battle. Kholek was only with Asavar's host until the desecration of Praag, after which Kholek wandered off on his own back to the northeren wastes.

    About Kholek, he torned down most heavily fortified city in Kislev, Praag wall where superior to Kislev ones, so HE has done heavy lifting for chaos troops.

    Yes you see, HE did help Empire and Dawi in fight vs Chaos, what was doing "heroic", full of duty, honorable Bretonnia ?

    Bretonnia do help in the End times, they still have their **** to deal with.

    They saved Altdorf after most of their population died of plague and that a Massive civil war gked them up.

    Your biais is a bit too clear.
    End Times is mess, so I wont even talk about that "pice of art" made by GW to kill of Warhammer.

    My bias is as big for Empire, as your is for Bretonnia, so you hardly good Judge
    How ? Said the Empire is the supperior force, Bretonnia has no chance at attacking the Empire, but realisticly the Empire would not be sure to take bretonnia and would most likely be pushed back for the hundreds of reasons I gave before
    Empire would never try to conquer Bretonnia in way you describe it. Why should Empire even try to conquer Bretonnia if war start between them, if simple solution is to burn field, destroy villages, and force Bretonnia army to field battle on Empire terms. Taking cities and villiges will only strech Empire borders, and make it harder to def vs any enemie armies.

    As for my hate vs Bretonnia, its not truth. In overhaul like for all faction, they are very high in my ranks, but as for Human faction alone, I like them least, for many reasons. But hate them ? nah.
  • psychoakpsychoak Posts: 2,367Registered Users
    If someone wants to argue who would win if Bretonnia tried to conquer the Empire, go for it. It's like asking how well it would go for Russia if they invaded China though. Stupidly pointless. Even if they could somehow magic away the Chinese military entirely, they don't have the forces to hold even half the country. The reverse? Not so pointless, Russia might hold out in a defensive war, because their military is a lot more on par with China's than their population is. Would they get stomped into a greasy spot if both sides persisted to the end? Probably. How many hundreds of millions of Chinese would be dead in the end after they blew the three gorges dam and nuked a few major cities? Would the regime survive the internal pressure from their population and outside entities **** off over them starting a nuclear war?

    One is just a **** concept, no one marginally intelligent would see a positive outcome. The other is more sticky, still stupid, but the end result isn't just "army attacked, died horribly, ran away".
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,401Registered Users
    psychoak said:

    If someone wants to argue who would win if Bretonnia tried to conquer the Empire, go for it. It's like asking how well it would go for Russia if they invaded China though. Stupidly pointless. Even if they could somehow magic away the Chinese military entirely, they don't have the forces to hold even half the country. The reverse? Not so pointless, Russia might hold out in a defensive war, because their military is a lot more on par with China's than their population is. Would they get stomped into a greasy spot if both sides persisted to the end? Probably. How many hundreds of millions of Chinese would be dead in the end after they blew the three gorges dam and nuked a few major cities? Would the regime survive the internal pressure from their population and outside entities **** off over them starting a nuclear war?

    One is just a **** concept, no one marginally intelligent would see a positive outcome. The other is more sticky, still stupid, but the end result isn't just "army attacked, died horribly, ran away".

    Yep, basically what we agree on. Idk some people are dilusional and think thats its more like USA vs Canada...

    Im Canadian, but well be honest we stand no chance XD


  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,831Registered Users
    I know for certain who would win:

    Khorne.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,401Registered Users

    I know for certain who would win:

    Khorne.

    Blood For The Blood God ! SKULL FOR THE SKULL THRONE !


  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Posts: 848Registered Users
    Kranox said:

    I know for certain who would win:

    Khorne.

    Blood For The Blood God ! SKULL FOR THE SKULL THRONE !
    Nah, you all need the love of grandpa Nurgle!
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,401Registered Users

    Kranox said:

    I know for certain who would win:

    Khorne.

    Blood For The Blood God ! SKULL FOR THE SKULL THRONE !
    Nah, you all need the love of grandpa Nurgle!
    Awnn papa nurgle, if I didnt hate being sick so much( lives in Canada so a cold is always **** there...) I would maybe love him more.

    The only thing that is certain is that Change will always be the winner 😉


  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 1,920Registered Users
    Nyxilis said:

    Yeah, Grail Knights are super chaos human level. Want to know who has defeated Chaos every single time until End Times? The Empire.

    Categorically false... The Empire has only defeated an Everchosen twice. That was Morkar (arguable) and Asavar Kul (also arguable), and for most of the time that was actually the Kislevites fighting them off.

    1st Everchosen- Morkar. Defeated by Sigmar 's very early Empire (it was nothing like the current Empire, but sure let us ascribe this victory to them)
    2nd Everchosen- Vangael was defeated by DWARVEN forces led by Gromrir Goldfist.
    3rd Evercosen- Khaardun the Gloried. He got possessed by Be'lakor before he could launch his invasion, and thus this defeat is attributed to Chaos itself.
    4th Everchosen- Asavar Kul. Defeated at Kislev. His forces had been mainly fighting KISLEVITE and DWARVEN forces (ie NOT the Empire), but the Empire certainly did swoop in to save the day against a battered foe.
    5th Everchosen- Archaon. Yeah... The Empire got suckerpunched and defeated badly by Archaon's forces.
    Nyxilis said:

    Want to know who got mollywhopped by Chaos and barely contributed to the final fight? Bretonnia.

    This is simply false. Bretonnia contributed to the fight greatly. Both by keeping one flank of the Empire safe against hordes of undead and Skaven, and also by saving what was left of Altdorf. I know that historical revisionism is all the rage these days... But probably shouldn't try doing it with detailed written canon....
    Nyxilis said:

    I'm not dismissing for a second that Bretonnia doesn't have power. Sure, every single army that comes to battle in Warhammer has some doomsday super human thing. But even Chaos Warriors will die to a cannon blast. To hails of bullets. To steam tanks running them over. They are super human, but they are not immortal.

    The blessing of the Lady literally gives the knights of Bretonnia supernatural protection aginst exactly the things you mention... And Steam Tanks are NOT a power factor from the Empire. Besides being in disrepair most of the time, there simply aren't enough of them to be a strategic asset.
    Nyxilis said:

    Green Knight is, but he's still unreliable. Half the time when he shows up Bretonnia is losing to undead, to various factions. So those super human grail knights? Losing. Cause, they've lost plenty of times in lore.

    So.. The Green Knight shows up EVERY time the need is great, and he is unreliable? I don't know.. But seems pretty reliable there.... Also... Are you trying to say that the Empire has never alsmost lost to undead? Do you know how many times the Von Carsteins have almost brought the Empire low? Almost losing is exactly the part of the forces of ORder that makes them heroic... It is a common writing trope...
    Nyxilis said:

    North Bretonnia that empty lil area north of the main faction of them? It's empty. Know why? Lore says Norscans have burned every village and toppled every castle north of main kingdom. Know who has prevented that in the empire? Nordland. Past history Norscans have cut deep and killed plenty of those super human grail knights.

    Another downright lie... Couronne suffers from Norsemen atatcks, that much is true (at least), but the northeren part of Couronne is NOT a wasteland because of that... Much of northeren Couronne is uninhabited, because the coastline is simply not fit for proper trading posts, and the good farmland is further inland... There are however, plenty of coastal villages in Couronne, and while yes, it is said taht those villages without at least a stockade won't last a single raiding season, it is also said that all villages worth their salt DOES have defenses... So could you please try to pass on the lore of the world a bit more truthfully?
    Nyxilis said:

    So bad asses sure, but they still die. Green Knight may or may not show up. Bretonnia has lost battles, and it's always described as disastrous as many super soldiers are dead and they can't just bring more. Empire can.

    And the Empire has never lost battles? The Empire loses are not more disatrous than Bretonnia's, this is simply another fallacy... Bretonnia suffers defeats and losses, but each time that happens it simply means new worthy heroes steps up and saves the day. It is LITERALLY the trope that Bretonnia fulfills...
    Nyxilis said:

    And of course, Bretonnia has nothing on Empire defenses. Imperial castles and cannons have in past lore stood against antiquated siege methods and cavalry. And most of the empire is layered in hills, fortresses, forests, rivers, and creek beds. All places to push that Bretonnia cavalry into and mitigate any kind of real campaign.

    The Bretonnians don't need to fight the siege... They just need to starve out the defenders... That is siegework 101...
    Nyxilis said:

    Marienburg, a mere remnant of the empire has resisted all Bretonnia attempts to conquer them. So much for those super human attempts~

    Except for the time that Bretonnia literally conquered and occupied Marienburg.... Which is one more time than the Empire has managed...
  • baronblackbaronblack Posts: 3,202Registered Users

    Nyxilis said:

    Yeah, Grail Knights are super chaos human level. Want to know who has defeated Chaos every single time until End Times? The Empire.

    Categorically false... The Empire has only defeated an Everchosen twice. That was Morkar (arguable) and Asavar Kul (also arguable), and for most of the time that was actually the Kislevites fighting them off.

    1st Everchosen- Morkar. Defeated by Sigmar 's very early Empire (it was nothing like the current Empire, but sure let us ascribe this victory to them)
    2nd Everchosen- Vangael was defeated by DWARVEN forces led by Gromrir Goldfist.
    3rd Evercosen- Khaardun the Gloried. He got possessed by Be'lakor before he could launch his invasion, and thus this defeat is attributed to Chaos itself.
    4th Everchosen- Asavar Kul. Defeated at Kislev. His forces had been mainly fighting KISLEVITE and DWARVEN forces (ie NOT the Empire), but the Empire certainly did swoop in to save the day against a battered foe.
    5th Everchosen- Archaon. Yeah... The Empire got suckerpunched and defeated badly by Archaon's forces.
    Nyxilis said:

    Want to know who got mollywhopped by Chaos and barely contributed to the final fight? Bretonnia.

    This is simply false. Bretonnia contributed to the fight greatly. Both by keeping one flank of the Empire safe against hordes of undead and Skaven, and also by saving what was left of Altdorf. I know that historical revisionism is all the rage these days... But probably shouldn't try doing it with detailed written canon....
    Nyxilis said:

    I'm not dismissing for a second that Bretonnia doesn't have power. Sure, every single army that comes to battle in Warhammer has some doomsday super human thing. But even Chaos Warriors will die to a cannon blast. To hails of bullets. To steam tanks running them over. They are super human, but they are not immortal.

    The blessing of the Lady literally gives the knights of Bretonnia supernatural protection aginst exactly the things you mention... And Steam Tanks are NOT a power factor from the Empire. Besides being in disrepair most of the time, there simply aren't enough of them to be a strategic asset.
    Nyxilis said:

    Green Knight is, but he's still unreliable. Half the time when he shows up Bretonnia is losing to undead, to various factions. So those super human grail knights? Losing. Cause, they've lost plenty of times in lore.

    So.. The Green Knight shows up EVERY time the need is great, and he is unreliable? I don't know.. But seems pretty reliable there.... Also... Are you trying to say that the Empire has never alsmost lost to undead? Do you know how many times the Von Carsteins have almost brought the Empire low? Almost losing is exactly the part of the forces of ORder that makes them heroic... It is a common writing trope...
    Nyxilis said:

    North Bretonnia that empty lil area north of the main faction of them? It's empty. Know why? Lore says Norscans have burned every village and toppled every castle north of main kingdom. Know who has prevented that in the empire? Nordland. Past history Norscans have cut deep and killed plenty of those super human grail knights.

    Another downright lie... Couronne suffers from Norsemen atatcks, that much is true (at least), but the northeren part of Couronne is NOT a wasteland because of that... Much of northeren Couronne is uninhabited, because the coastline is simply not fit for proper trading posts, and the good farmland is further inland... There are however, plenty of coastal villages in Couronne, and while yes, it is said taht those villages without at least a stockade won't last a single raiding season, it is also said that all villages worth their salt DOES have defenses... So could you please try to pass on the lore of the world a bit more truthfully?
    Nyxilis said:

    So bad asses sure, but they still die. Green Knight may or may not show up. Bretonnia has lost battles, and it's always described as disastrous as many super soldiers are dead and they can't just bring more. Empire can.

    And the Empire has never lost battles? The Empire loses are not more disatrous than Bretonnia's, this is simply another fallacy... Bretonnia suffers defeats and losses, but each time that happens it simply means new worthy heroes steps up and saves the day. It is LITERALLY the trope that Bretonnia fulfills...
    Nyxilis said:

    And of course, Bretonnia has nothing on Empire defenses. Imperial castles and cannons have in past lore stood against antiquated siege methods and cavalry. And most of the empire is layered in hills, fortresses, forests, rivers, and creek beds. All places to push that Bretonnia cavalry into and mitigate any kind of real campaign.

    The Bretonnians don't need to fight the siege... They just need to starve out the defenders... That is siegework 101...
    Nyxilis said:

    Marienburg, a mere remnant of the empire has resisted all Bretonnia attempts to conquer them. So much for those super human attempts~

    Except for the time that Bretonnia literally conquered and occupied Marienburg.... Which is one more time than the Empire has managed...
    I never got the "Marienburg resisting to all" trope because in the lore it was Razed THREE TIMES and taken away from the Empire in such countless times that the whole idea of Marienburg being an invincible city state is laughable at best.
    Only because the Bretonnian siege during the Great War against Chaos failed does not mean that the city never fell to them. It's literally stated than in the last three centuries of its Imperial History, Marienburg changed its banners numerous times between Bretonnia and the Empire, and its one of the reason that eventually led the Bourghemaster to buy the independence, so they could stay in good relations with both the nations of men (and a good relation with profits helped a lot too). Since then, and only then (a century) a certain "cold war" descended to Marienburg. But certainly, the only one that lost in the long run was just the Empire.
    Having lost the whole Imperial Fleet was catastrophic and only in 2512 I.C Karl Franz decided with Gausser to rebuild the Imperial Fleet in the docks of Nordland.


    So at the end of the day, Bretonnia kinda won.
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,073Registered Users
    edited February 18
    Oh yea, forgot to mention Bretonnia does have the best fleet of the Old World.
    Despite it would be mostly a land war. Bretonnian fleet can cause some damage in the Nordland with raids, and some provincial capitals that has ports can be constantly be resupplied despite being under siege
    River Reik can be sailed in, prevent some crossings(not all) harass supply lines and bombard some cities.

    Meanwhile half of the Empire fleet is an inexperienced river fleet.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Posts: 976Registered Users
    As far as game goes if both players are of equal skill and used same budget then the chances of bretonia getting destroyed by empire is extremely high.
    in reality easiest way to beat grail knights is to target the horses then they lose the mobility. and just pick them off with laser wagons, guns, pistols, cannons...etc
    So without grail knights brets are done for.
    And empire has gryphons to handle RHK
    and RPK is too squishy.
    Easily destroyed be focused gunfire
    And doesn't horses get tired? unless horse drink from grail too.

    bretonia is in the game and in lore is just a glorified meat shield.
  • psychoakpsychoak Posts: 2,367Registered Users
    If it goes to the late game, no horse gets tired. :)

    Lords have a huge buff to vigor loss, and Couronne has one as well.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,125Registered Users

    Nyxilis said:

    Yeah, Grail Knights are super chaos human level. Want to know who has defeated Chaos every single time until End Times? The Empire.

    Categorically false... The Empire has only defeated an Everchosen twice. That was Morkar (arguable) and Asavar Kul (also arguable), and for most of the time that was actually the Kislevites fighting them off.

    1st Everchosen- Morkar. Defeated by Sigmar 's very early Empire (it was nothing like the current Empire, but sure let us ascribe this victory to them)
    2nd Everchosen- Vangael was defeated by DWARVEN forces led by Gromrir Goldfist.
    3rd Evercosen- Khaardun the Gloried. He got possessed by Be'lakor before he could launch his invasion, and thus this defeat is attributed to Chaos itself.
    4th Everchosen- Asavar Kul. Defeated at Kislev. His forces had been mainly fighting KISLEVITE and DWARVEN forces (ie NOT the Empire), but the Empire certainly did swoop in to save the day against a battered foe.
    5th Everchosen- Archaon. Yeah... The Empire got suckerpunched and defeated badly by Archaon's forces.
    Nyxilis said:

    Want to know who got mollywhopped by Chaos and barely contributed to the final fight? Bretonnia.

    This is simply false. Bretonnia contributed to the fight greatly. Both by keeping one flank of the Empire safe against hordes of undead and Skaven, and also by saving what was left of Altdorf. I know that historical revisionism is all the rage these days... But probably shouldn't try doing it with detailed written canon....
    Nyxilis said:

    I'm not dismissing for a second that Bretonnia doesn't have power. Sure, every single army that comes to battle in Warhammer has some doomsday super human thing. But even Chaos Warriors will die to a cannon blast. To hails of bullets. To steam tanks running them over. They are super human, but they are not immortal.

    The blessing of the Lady literally gives the knights of Bretonnia supernatural protection aginst exactly the things you mention... And Steam Tanks are NOT a power factor from the Empire. Besides being in disrepair most of the time, there simply aren't enough of them to be a strategic asset.
    Nyxilis said:

    Green Knight is, but he's still unreliable. Half the time when he shows up Bretonnia is losing to undead, to various factions. So those super human grail knights? Losing. Cause, they've lost plenty of times in lore.

    So.. The Green Knight shows up EVERY time the need is great, and he is unreliable? I don't know.. But seems pretty reliable there.... Also... Are you trying to say that the Empire has never alsmost lost to undead? Do you know how many times the Von Carsteins have almost brought the Empire low? Almost losing is exactly the part of the forces of ORder that makes them heroic... It is a common writing trope...
    Nyxilis said:

    North Bretonnia that empty lil area north of the main faction of them? It's empty. Know why? Lore says Norscans have burned every village and toppled every castle north of main kingdom. Know who has prevented that in the empire? Nordland. Past history Norscans have cut deep and killed plenty of those super human grail knights.

    Another downright lie... Couronne suffers from Norsemen atatcks, that much is true (at least), but the northeren part of Couronne is NOT a wasteland because of that... Much of northeren Couronne is uninhabited, because the coastline is simply not fit for proper trading posts, and the good farmland is further inland... There are however, plenty of coastal villages in Couronne, and while yes, it is said taht those villages without at least a stockade won't last a single raiding season, it is also said that all villages worth their salt DOES have defenses... So could you please try to pass on the lore of the world a bit more truthfully?
    Nyxilis said:

    So bad asses sure, but they still die. Green Knight may or may not show up. Bretonnia has lost battles, and it's always described as disastrous as many super soldiers are dead and they can't just bring more. Empire can.

    And the Empire has never lost battles? The Empire loses are not more disatrous than Bretonnia's, this is simply another fallacy... Bretonnia suffers defeats and losses, but each time that happens it simply means new worthy heroes steps up and saves the day. It is LITERALLY the trope that Bretonnia fulfills...
    Nyxilis said:

    And of course, Bretonnia has nothing on Empire defenses. Imperial castles and cannons have in past lore stood against antiquated siege methods and cavalry. And most of the empire is layered in hills, fortresses, forests, rivers, and creek beds. All places to push that Bretonnia cavalry into and mitigate any kind of real campaign.

    The Bretonnians don't need to fight the siege... They just need to starve out the defenders... That is siegework 101...
    Nyxilis said:

    Marienburg, a mere remnant of the empire has resisted all Bretonnia attempts to conquer them. So much for those super human attempts~

    Except for the time that Bretonnia literally conquered and occupied Marienburg.... Which is one more time than the Empire has managed...
    Boy did you miss things by a mile. Grail Knights are not Everchosen. Chaos Warriors are not Everchosen. Don't know why you're jumping in with Everchosen. There are, however, as stated heaps of dead Chaos Warriors unaging blessed with powers and enchanted armor that infact the empire has defeated a plenty. So categorically false? Nope. At least get it right if you're going into it. Nobody said a thing about the Everchosen, not one thing. Just saying that Grail Knights are not undefeateble. Such as their slaughter down to the last man at the Battle of Dread Pass to Greenskins. Thus, Grail Knights are strong, but not even remotely immortal or unbeatable by the other armies of the world and certainly not to the empire. But go ahead, rant about the Everchosen some more whom no one was talking about.

    Fought bravely still fell well before.

    And no the Green Knight doesn't show up every time. Bretonnia has been defeated before. He didn't save the kingdoms when they got sacked by Norscan raiders. Nor did he show up when the Skaven were running amock. He's powerful, but unreliable. No matter how much you might wish him to be. Von Carsteins have never run over the empire to the degree that the Skaven overran Bretonnia at one point. Ya know, when the Green Knight didn't same them from that. When he does show, yep, pretty bad time for the army that's there. But Bretonnian cities have burned and he didn't show. He's not a stop gap for every time Bretonnia is going to lose.

    It has nothing to do with trading posts, it's stated outright because of Norscan raids sacking any village that dare by up there.

    Never said the empire hasn't lost battles, lost plenty, but the Empire recovers far faster because it's built to do so. Bretonnia does not, they take hits harder. They don't have the industry to replace that armor the same way. If a hero stands up, great, he stands up from a small set of nobility and those heros are not created equal. Bretonnia can ill afford the losses of knights it weakens them as a whole. Erranty wars proved that. Lose to many to anything and their home area grows week and it takes decades to replace. It's their trope, but it does show they suffer to attrition with the loss of costly knights. They are expensive. Even blessed they still need full plate, expensive steeds, with a midevil economy that generates nowhere near the wealth of a middle class based Empire economy. Economics 101.

    Bretonnian's have to fight the siege, to even get through to the empire they have to bust down siege areas to reliably cross. It's part of the reason the particular battle that happened over the insult at that location. Want to get to the empire? Go through here. And they have to break those sieges because the empire will never stand still and wait out long enough for that. If they don't take the city relief imperial armies will show, then their face city defenders and those relief armies. Assuming the empire just doesn't burn their supply lines if the defenders have greater food stores. So your siege 101 is... is laughable. It doesn't work in the land of the empire, it's not some vaccuum. Waiting to starve only works if you know no relief armies will come, your army is overall bigger so they can't meet you in the field, or you kingdom is so small with no allies who will assist. The empire is none of these. They can build armies from multiple other provinces to relief, possibly in that one itself. They have the money to hire mercenary armies. They have allies who will assist them like the dwarfs. So there isn't going to be a major siege on any major fortification or major city where they can just sit and wait before relief armies come. So yeah, they need to crack it and deprive the empire of that city.

    Marienburg was still part of the Empire at that point, and they got driven from it after being defeated by the empire. When their Grail Knights lost, and the Green Knight didn't show. Independent merchant Marienburg has never been defeated by Bretonnia, in fact Bretonnia has lost. The empire after the initial attempts has never again tried. It's to important to trade to take and sack.

    Clearly, you have some love for Bretonnia. Great, glad you do. Doesn't mean they'd win in a long prolonged war with the empire.

    For the record, I'm not an Empire fan boy. They are not even in my top five favorite armies. But Bretonnia's power often gets overstated.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 1,920Registered Users
    Nyxilis said:



    Boy did you miss things by a mile. Grail Knights are not Everchosen. Chaos Warriors are not Everchosen. Don't know why you're jumping in with Everchosen. There are, however, as stated heaps of dead Chaos Warriors unaging blessed with powers and enchanted armor that infact the empire has defeated a plenty. So categorically false? Nope. At least get it right if you're going into it. Nobody said a thing about the Everchosen, not one thing. Just saying that Grail Knights are not undefeateble. Such as their slaughter down to the last man at the Battle of Dread Pass to Greenskins. Thus, Grail Knights are strong, but not even remotely immortal or unbeatable by the other armies of the world and certainly not to the empire. But go ahead, rant about the Everchosen some more whom no one was talking about.

    You clæaimed that the Empire had beaten back Chaos every single time there had been an Everchosebn. I proved to you, that it was a demonstrably false claim. Since the Empire has only (and even then it is arguable) done it twice. So I simply pointed out how completely wrong your faulty grasp of the lore was..
    Nyxilis said:


    Fought bravely still fell well before.

    Uhm.. EVERYONE fell before Chaos in the End Times... So what you are saying is beyond stupid... The Grail Knights of Bretonnia are stated to be the equals of the Skullcrushers of Khorne, and the reason that the forces of Order lost, was because the forces of Chaos were simply too numerous. So your idiotic statement that Bretonnia barely contributed, can also be chalked up, to your faulty grasp on the lore of the world...
    Nyxilis said:


    And no the Green Knight doesn't show up every time. Bretonnia has been defeated before. He didn't save the kingdoms when they got sacked by Norscan raiders. Nor did he show up when the Skaven were running amock. He's powerful, but unreliable. No matter how much you might wish him to be. Von Carsteins have never run over the empire to the degree that the Skaven overran Bretonnia at one point. Ya know, when the Green Knight didn't same them from that. When he does show, yep, pretty bad time for the army that's there. But Bretonnian cities have burned and he didn't show. He's not a stop gap for every time Bretonnia is going to lose.

    Every time that Bretonnia, you know as a NATION, has had the need, the Green Knight has shown up. It is his literal role. And he did show up in the End Times, and this time he even stuck around. So you are, once again, demonstrably wrong.

    Which Norscan raids are you talking about? Because if you are talking about the End Times raids, then the Green Knight did in fact show up.. And if you are talking about the general seasonal raids, then they were never actually a threat to Bretonnia as a nation (though he also showed up to fight off a few of those)..

    And what the hell are you even talking about regarding the Von Carsteins? The Von Carsteins have on three seperate occasions brought the Empire to the brink of collapse. That is more than the Skaven have ever done to Bretonnia...

    Once again, your revisionism is shining through...
    Nyxilis said:


    It has nothing to do with trading posts, it's stated outright because of Norscan raids sacking any village that dare by up there.

    Yeah... No... It isn't... It is not stated in the Army Book, and it is not stated in the only other source for Bretonnian geography of the RPG supplement.. So you are gonna have to find a source that says that... If you are talking about End Times, then that depopulation was a result of unually intense raids from extreme amounts of Norscan raiders... Which of course would mean you are trying to spin atypical occurances as typical... That would be either dishonest or disengenuous... You decide that one...
    Nyxilis said:


    Never said the empire hasn't lost battles, lost plenty, but the Empire recovers far faster because it's built to do so. Bretonnia does not, they take hits harder. They don't have the industry to replace that armor the same way. If a hero stands up, great, he stands up from a small set of nobility and those heros are not created equal. Bretonnia can ill afford the losses of knights it weakens them as a whole. Erranty wars proved that. Lose to many to anything and their home area grows week and it takes decades to replace. It's their trope, but it does show they suffer to attrition with the loss of costly knights. They are expensive. Even blessed they still need full plate, expensive steeds, with a midevil economy that generates nowhere near the wealth of a middle class based Empire economy. Economics 101.

    It is a fantasy world however... bretonnia recovers exactly as quickly as it needs to. The amount of loses that ANY nation has suffered in the Warhammer World should have been more than enough to see the nations collapse..
    Nyxilis said:


    Bretonnian's have to fight the siege, to even get through to the empire they have to bust down siege areas to reliably cross. It's part of the reason the particular battle that happened over the insult at that location. Want to get to the empire? Go through here. And they have to break those sieges because the empire will never stand still and wait out long enough for that. If they don't take the city relief imperial armies will show, then their face city defenders and those relief armies. Assuming the empire just doesn't burn their supply lines if the defenders have greater food stores. So your siege 101 is... is laughable. It doesn't work in the land of the empire, it's not some vaccuum. Waiting to starve only works if you know no relief armies will come, your army is overall bigger so they can't meet you in the field, or you kingdom is so small with no allies who will assist. The empire is none of these. They can build armies from multiple other provinces to relief, possibly in that one itself. They have the money to hire mercenary armies. They have allies who will assist them like the dwarfs. So there isn't going to be a major siege on any major fortification or major city where they can just sit and wait before relief armies come. So yeah, they need to crack it and deprive the empire of that city.

    You assume that the Bretonnian armies would all just stand around and wait for Helmgart (which I PRESUME you are refering to) starve out... That would be a strategic blunder.. Since if the Empire would want to relieve Helmgart, their armies would have to take to the field, where Bretonnian forces come to bear... So in fact, Bretonnians would WANT to drag out a siege...
    Nyxilis said:


    Marienburg was still part of the Empire at that point, and they got driven from it after being defeated by the empire. When their Grail Knights lost, and the Green Knight didn't show. Independent merchant Marienburg has never been defeated by Bretonnia, in fact Bretonnia has lost. The empire after the initial attempts has never again tried. It's to important to trade to take and sack.

    Bretonnian havn't even tried to conquer Marienburg since it got its independence... So yeah... Revisionism, dishonesty AND disingeniuty... That is the trifecta of the bad post..
    Nyxilis said:


    Clearly, you have some love for Bretonnia. Great, glad you do. Doesn't mean they'd win in a long prolonged war with the empire.

    I have love for the lore, and the honest, genuine and correct display of it. You failed miserably at all three. Everything you say comes off as unsupported claims, personal interpretation, or even worse, unfounded speculation and wild ramblings.. You fail to support your claims, or back up your statements, and when it is pointed out taht they are wrong, you either ignore or attack... So yeah.. I wonder why threads like these gets closed down..
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,125Registered Users

    Nyxilis said:



    Boy did you miss things by a mile. Grail Knights are not Everchosen. Chaos Warriors are not Everchosen. Don't know why you're jumping in with Everchosen. There are, however, as stated heaps of dead Chaos Warriors unaging blessed with powers and enchanted armor that infact the empire has defeated a plenty. So categorically false? Nope. At least get it right if you're going into it. Nobody said a thing about the Everchosen, not one thing. Just saying that Grail Knights are not undefeateble. Such as their slaughter down to the last man at the Battle of Dread Pass to Greenskins. Thus, Grail Knights are strong, but not even remotely immortal or unbeatable by the other armies of the world and certainly not to the empire. But go ahead, rant about the Everchosen some more whom no one was talking about.

    You clæaimed that the Empire had beaten back Chaos every single time there had been an Everchosebn. I proved to you, that it was a demonstrably false claim. Since the Empire has only (and even then it is arguable) done it twice. So I simply pointed out how completely wrong your faulty grasp of the lore was..
    Nyxilis said:


    Fought bravely still fell well before.

    Uhm.. EVERYONE fell before Chaos in the End Times... So what you are saying is beyond stupid... The Grail Knights of Bretonnia are stated to be the equals of the Skullcrushers of Khorne, and the reason that the forces of Order lost, was because the forces of Chaos were simply too numerous. So your idiotic statement that Bretonnia barely contributed, can also be chalked up, to your faulty grasp on the lore of the world...
    Nyxilis said:


    And no the Green Knight doesn't show up every time. Bretonnia has been defeated before. He didn't save the kingdoms when they got sacked by Norscan raiders. Nor did he show up when the Skaven were running amock. He's powerful, but unreliable. No matter how much you might wish him to be. Von Carsteins have never run over the empire to the degree that the Skaven overran Bretonnia at one point. Ya know, when the Green Knight didn't same them from that. When he does show, yep, pretty bad time for the army that's there. But Bretonnian cities have burned and he didn't show. He's not a stop gap for every time Bretonnia is going to lose.

    Every time that Bretonnia, you know as a NATION, has had the need, the Green Knight has shown up. It is his literal role. And he did show up in the End Times, and this time he even stuck around. So you are, once again, demonstrably wrong.

    Which Norscan raids are you talking about? Because if you are talking about the End Times raids, then the Green Knight did in fact show up.. And if you are talking about the general seasonal raids, then they were never actually a threat to Bretonnia as a nation (though he also showed up to fight off a few of those)..

    And what the hell are you even talking about regarding the Von Carsteins? The Von Carsteins have on three seperate occasions brought the Empire to the brink of collapse. That is more than the Skaven have ever done to Bretonnia...

    Once again, your revisionism is shining through...
    Nyxilis said:


    It has nothing to do with trading posts, it's stated outright because of Norscan raids sacking any village that dare by up there.

    Yeah... No... It isn't... It is not stated in the Army Book, and it is not stated in the only other source for Bretonnian geography of the RPG supplement.. So you are gonna have to find a source that says that... If you are talking about End Times, then that depopulation was a result of unually intense raids from extreme amounts of Norscan raiders... Which of course would mean you are trying to spin atypical occurances as typical... That would be either dishonest or disengenuous... You decide that one...
    Nyxilis said:


    Never said the empire hasn't lost battles, lost plenty, but the Empire recovers far faster because it's built to do so. Bretonnia does not, they take hits harder. They don't have the industry to replace that armor the same way. If a hero stands up, great, he stands up from a small set of nobility and those heros are not created equal. Bretonnia can ill afford the losses of knights it weakens them as a whole. Erranty wars proved that. Lose to many to anything and their home area grows week and it takes decades to replace. It's their trope, but it does show they suffer to attrition with the loss of costly knights. They are expensive. Even blessed they still need full plate, expensive steeds, with a midevil economy that generates nowhere near the wealth of a middle class based Empire economy. Economics 101.

    It is a fantasy world however... bretonnia recovers exactly as quickly as it needs to. The amount of loses that ANY nation has suffered in the Warhammer World should have been more than enough to see the nations collapse..
    Nyxilis said:


    Bretonnian's have to fight the siege, to even get through to the empire they have to bust down siege areas to reliably cross. It's part of the reason the particular battle that happened over the insult at that location. Want to get to the empire? Go through here. And they have to break those sieges because the empire will never stand still and wait out long enough for that. If they don't take the city relief imperial armies will show, then their face city defenders and those relief armies. Assuming the empire just doesn't burn their supply lines if the defenders have greater food stores. So your siege 101 is... is laughable. It doesn't work in the land of the empire, it's not some vaccuum. Waiting to starve only works if you know no relief armies will come, your army is overall bigger so they can't meet you in the field, or you kingdom is so small with no allies who will assist. The empire is none of these. They can build armies from multiple other provinces to relief, possibly in that one itself. They have the money to hire mercenary armies. They have allies who will assist them like the dwarfs. So there isn't going to be a major siege on any major fortification or major city where they can just sit and wait before relief armies come. So yeah, they need to crack it and deprive the empire of that city.

    You assume that the Bretonnian armies would all just stand around and wait for Helmgart (which I PRESUME you are refering to) starve out... That would be a strategic blunder.. Since if the Empire would want to relieve Helmgart, their armies would have to take to the field, where Bretonnian forces come to bear... So in fact, Bretonnians would WANT to drag out a siege...
    Nyxilis said:


    Marienburg was still part of the Empire at that point, and they got driven from it after being defeated by the empire. When their Grail Knights lost, and the Green Knight didn't show. Independent merchant Marienburg has never been defeated by Bretonnia, in fact Bretonnia has lost. The empire after the initial attempts has never again tried. It's to important to trade to take and sack.

    Bretonnian havn't even tried to conquer Marienburg since it got its independence... So yeah... Revisionism, dishonesty AND disingeniuty... That is the trifecta of the bad post..
    Nyxilis said:


    Clearly, you have some love for Bretonnia. Great, glad you do. Doesn't mean they'd win in a long prolonged war with the empire.

    I have love for the lore, and the honest, genuine and correct display of it. You failed miserably at all three. Everything you say comes off as unsupported claims, personal interpretation, or even worse, unfounded speculation and wild ramblings.. You fail to support your claims, or back up your statements, and when it is pointed out taht they are wrong, you either ignore or attack... So yeah.. I wonder why threads like these gets closed down..
    Reading comprehension mate, I never said Everchosen. You did. Sorry. I said chaos, as Warriors of Chaos have attacked the empire at times without one. They also poke at Kislev routinely. While the everchosen rallies are by and large the bigger times they pour through they are not the only. There are plenty of minor conflicts in the history. But go back, read it, the everchosen is not mentioned.

    Green Knight did not show during the Skaven invasions. The ones that almost killed them. He has also showed up to defend minor excursions. If you list every time he has shown it's scattered, undependable. Significant, but not dependable. He has let capitals burn. Whatever reasons be, he doens't always show. Sorry.

    Invasion of L'anguile, Norsemen had the upperhand. Only a duel saved the day when the Norscans agreed to leave if their leader died and they kept the word. It's not the only description of Norscan invasions giving them hefty trouble either. I don't see why so far fetched, norscan raiders have plagued everyone from the elves to the lizardmen. But I guess Bretonnia is removed from one of the flagship baddies that is chaos? I mean really, if you think End Times is th only time you're once again pretty gappy in your Bret history.

    Skaven, red pox, look it up. Going to say the Skaven never brought Bretonnia low? Accuse me of revisionism and you can't even remember a major point of Bretonnia history and near fall? Hah. Whatever, they're a fantasy kingdom in a fantasy game. Without extreme save the day challenge it would be boring, and Bretonnia has suffered this for the narrative more than once. If their army hadn't been abandoned for lack of popularity they would have suffered even more setbacks post fifth edition. I have my pile of books to show it multiple times.

    RPG isn't official canon~ You should know that, good hint but not official And the RPG conflicts with the army books at times like everything else Warhammer. Especially given populations of various cities, they zig and zag real bad there. But surprise, I have official book here that says otherwise. The farthest northern portions of Bretonnia suffer Norscan raids like the rest of the world including the HE and given how well Bretonnia takes care of their peasants.. shocker. Those villages are ash. Since, hah, RPG the only source... wow.. there are so many books

    Hah, that's not how a battle at Heimgart can even possibly go Heimgart covers the pass. You can't get to the other side unless you break the fortress. Bretonnia can't surround it.


    Except it doesn't, they talk in the lore how long it does. If it just completely hand wavy then it doesn't really matter what you say. If they had a prolonged war between Empire and Bretonnia they'd probably let Bretonnia ultimately lose and have to back off because Bretonnia was an unpopular cancelled army and the Empire was the main narrative race and vastly more popular. Because that's business, and they'd never let a dead army the empire other than a whipping boy for the faction still actually generating revenue.

    You don't support your claims any better. You just state all the same with your own opinions, everything in your own last paragraph refutes everything you said. It takes just one second to type in Red Pox Bretonnia into google or open the Skaven or Bretonnian army book to realize you're wrong about Bretonnia and the Skaven. And like often happens, you display a lot of hostility and the assumption of being correct. Lambasting people for lack of citation while providing none yourself. Every refute of the people above went about fine and peaceful. Worse, because you're not actually that good at the lore or you'd know about the Red Pox. A major event of Skaven & Bretonnian conflict. I mean, you didn't even know that Heimgart guards the absolute entry of the pass and can't be surrounded by Bretonnians because it's a giant wall blocking the pass. They can't even starve it out. They have to crack it.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,998Registered Users
    ^^

    TT stats dont make Grail Knights demi gods at all. They dont have over the top stats over Blood Knights or Chaos Knights.

    In lore they are like Gods, not in TT, nor in game. End of story, Grail Knights alone cant win for Bretonnia war with whole Empire
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,353Registered Users, Moderators
    Right, this devolved quickly and utterly.

    I've given several warnings.

    Thread closed.
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