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Fixing the Repetitiveness of the Chaos Invasions

dchip1dchip1 Registered Users Posts: 646
Hi everybody! I've posted about this before but I know a lot of people, including I think a CA comment, that the Chaos invasions need work. I remember first playing Mortal Empires (I started with Warhammer 2 and quickly bought 1 and all the DLC) and the challenge and brutality of the Chaos Invasions were shocking (I was Tyrion) when I finally made it to the empire to find Altdorf razed and devastation everywhere. More playthroughs it was still fun but quickly became apparent if you needed to nip it in the butt early you just garrison powerful armies in the Kislev/Troll Country/Whatever HellPit area and grind down the armies with siege defenses and lightening strikes. It was definitely cool but after multiple play throughs the surprise is gone and its predictable and boring. Many people believe this should be fixed and I think I have a solution, though I'm not a programmer or designer so I'm not sure how feasible they are.

1. There seems to be about 3 distinct Chaos invasion events with Archaeon showing up at #2 and #3 being the real doomstack. How about if, instead, there was a random selection of doomsday scenarios at these times beyond chaos? Like the first "big bad" might be a mighty Orc WAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH around blackfire pass (or maybe a few random starting locations), or a Giant Skaven Uprising/Invasion, or a Nagash aligned faction attempting reserruct him by razing a continent in some sort of ritual? It doesn't have to be just the "evil" factions, it could be a Joint Brettonian/Empire Crusade, a High Elf Invasion, or even Grombindal (White Dwarf guy can't spell) leading a mighty army of vengence? Then after that concludes instead of just redoing it, there is again a random selection (with the choices above plus like DE and BM stuff) of a big event, and then finally a third final "true" end game challenge later where its a big chaos invasion, some Nagash stuff, or some other world ending scenario (Like Skaven.) I think this wouldn't be too hard or different and adding a bit of randomness to these conflicts and designing them to divide certain factions against the world with the bad guys (like say a mighty Vampire war or Skaven stuff) which I think would really shake up the ME map! Like maybe they could even have a special ending narration or little drawing recording your deeds in the 3 big events sort of summing up your progress.

2. If 1 is impossible and we're stuck with Chaos then there should be some more invasion points. I know the Chaos Wastes are there so it makes sense but maybe it can be more like...cultists doing stuff and causing Chaos armies to appear in like Lustria. Like I think at least making where the invasions start and who's being assualted will keep the player guessing and make the world map less stangant. Like Maybe Archaeon just spawns in a huge fleet (sort of like what happens for Game 2 areas but less lame) and it has a variable path of where he will start or make land fall. I think there just needs to be more random variety.

3. Maybe some Vortex like unique conditions for the big factions, like stuff that may not be congruent but if one faction completes there's first they can start of series of events that bring about a climatic event that will buff them superhard like the TKs collecting all the books and Vcoast getting Merwrym. Like its a sandbox still but trying to sabotage the other factions or eliminate them before they can complete their objetives would be fun. And you can try to take on the powered up factions still and accomplish your regular ME victory conditions. ME def needs some sort of goal but also sandbox is cool so I think having something similar to the Books of Nagash for each major faction to be doing will also add some variety especially between different factions

Comments

  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,670
    This sounds like a super great idea to me. More variance is always welcome. Both in race and the direction the super end game invasion/challenge comes from.
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  • Mstewa30Mstewa30 Registered Users Posts: 353
    edited February 2019
    “Nip it in the butt” :D

    But yeah, any revision would be welcome! Hopefully they get their finger out soon
    Post edited by Mstewa30 on
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Registered Users Posts: 1,971
    Bring in Nagash somehow. Create a CW ruleset that allows them to occupy territory or make it more Chaos-friendly in some way than the current mechanics. Let the Daemons and such reap the benefits as hordes. Greenskins, Skaven and Vampires can carry on doing their usual shenanigans. Boom, multi-headed threat. A veritable hydra of danger for the more civilised societies.
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  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 4,718
    edited February 2019

    Bring in Nagash somehow. Create a CW ruleset that allows them to occupy territory or make it more Chaos-friendly in some way than the current mechanics. Let the Daemons and such reap the benefits as hordes. Greenskins, Skaven and Vampires can carry on doing their usual shenanigans. Boom, multi-headed threat. A veritable hydra of danger for the more civilised societies.

    Perhaps instead of waves, large settlements that are taken by chaos have a chance to summon more armies (perhaps 5% per cap per turn). Think this would work better when daemons are added, having "mini warp rifts" in razed large settlements occasionally spawning daemons - so the better WoC do the more DoC will have a presence (though the 4 DoC LLs will spawn still). I do hope that in game 3 the Chaos invasions will actually feel like the end of days. Edit, I think that Chaos would be quite interesting as a "snowballing threat", that can quickly get out of hand if ignored, rather than just arbitrary waves.

    As you say a Nagash threat would also be great, having 2 big threats would be great, perhaps it would be good if Nagash could be convinced to help against chaos too (I know very ET), but would make the campaign more dynamic (as long as it doesn't happen every time).
  • PTreePTree Registered Users Posts: 641
    dchip1 said:

    Hi everybody! I've posted about this before but I know a lot of people, including I think a CA comment, that the Chaos invasions need work. I remember first playing Mortal Empires (I started with Warhammer 2 and quickly bought 1 and all the DLC) and the challenge and brutality of the Chaos Invasions were shocking (I was Tyrion) when I finally made it to the empire to find Altdorf razed and devastation everywhere. More playthroughs it was still fun but quickly became apparent if you needed to nip it in the butt early you just garrison powerful armies in the Kislev/Troll Country/Whatever HellPit area and grind down the armies with siege defenses and lightening strikes. It was definitely cool but after multiple play throughs the surprise is gone and its predictable and boring. Many people believe this should be fixed and I think I have a solution, though I'm not a programmer or designer so I'm not sure how feasible they are.

    1. There seems to be about 3 distinct Chaos invasion events with Archaeon showing up at #2 and #3 being the real doomstack. How about if, instead, there was a random selection of doomsday scenarios at these times beyond chaos? Like the first "big bad" might be a mighty Orc WAAAAAAGGGGGHHHH around blackfire pass (or maybe a few random starting locations), or a Giant Skaven Uprising/Invasion, or a Nagash aligned faction attempting reserruct him by razing a continent in some sort of ritual? It doesn't have to be just the "evil" factions, it could be a Joint Brettonian/Empire Crusade, a High Elf Invasion, or even Grombindal (White Dwarf guy can't spell) leading a mighty army of vengence? Then after that concludes instead of just redoing it, there is again a random selection (with the choices above plus like DE and BM stuff) of a big event, and then finally a third final "true" end game challenge later where its a big chaos invasion, some Nagash stuff, or some other world ending scenario (Like Skaven.) I think this wouldn't be too hard or different and adding a bit of randomness to these conflicts and designing them to divide certain factions against the world with the bad guys (like say a mighty Vampire war or Skaven stuff) which I think would really shake up the ME map! Like maybe they could even have a special ending narration or little drawing recording your deeds in the 3 big events sort of summing up your progress.

    2. If 1 is impossible and we're stuck with Chaos then there should be some more invasion points. I know the Chaos Wastes are there so it makes sense but maybe it can be more like...cultists doing stuff and causing Chaos armies to appear in like Lustria. Like I think at least making where the invasions start and who's being assualted will keep the player guessing and make the world map less stangant. Like Maybe Archaeon just spawns in a huge fleet (sort of like what happens for Game 2 areas but less lame) and it has a variable path of where he will start or make land fall. I think there just needs to be more random variety.

    3. Maybe some Vortex like unique conditions for the big factions, like stuff that may not be congruent but if one faction completes there's first they can start of series of events that bring about a climatic event that will buff them superhard like the TKs collecting all the books and Vcoast getting Merwrym. Like its a sandbox still but trying to sabotage the other factions or eliminate them before they can complete their objetives would be fun. And you can try to take on the powered up factions still and accomplish your regular ME victory conditions. ME def needs some sort of goal but also sandbox is cool so I think having something similar to the Books of Nagash for each major faction to be doing will also add some variety especially between different factions

    Great ideas.

    Agree, replacing some of the Vortex invasions on Ulthuan in Vortex Campaign with Grom da Punch's Waahhhh would be awesome. For ME, it would work great too. As you said, having these different world wide events taking place. And if you're playing as Orks, it could be Elthorian looking for revenge in the badlands. Or Attacking the drawfs and restarting the war of the beard or something.

    The more narritive elements they can add the better!


  • ArsenicArsenic Registered Users Posts: 5,831

    ..and Vampires can carry on doing their usual shenanigans. Boom, multi-headed threat. A veritable hydra of danger for the more civilised societies.

    I have always thought that the Von Carsteins ought to get the "Shield of Civilisation" trait.

    It's lore-friendly after all that Vlad would help out the Empire if it was under threat.
    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376
    There are plenty of places that could act as Chaos Spawn points. Brass Keep in the Empire is a Chaos stronghold. The Fallen Gates in Lustria is a portal that opens up to the warp. Quetza would be a great spot for a Skaven invasion. Xahutec has a Choas Portal underneath it as well. I think there are some places up in Naggarond as well.

    But anyway, I'm really hoping for more Chaos invasion points with a bit more of a warning so the player has a few turns to prepare. More armies spawning from portals is also a great idea.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,218
    What I'd ultimately like to see is three things:

    1. By the third game I'd like there to be four potential endgame threats: a massive Waagh, the Chaos Invasion, a mass Skaven uprising, and the return of Nagash, and which one you get in a marticular ME playthrough is randomized. There would also be an extra difficult level/campaign called "The End Times" where all four would go off during the same campaign and it would really just be a question of how long the player could survive.

    2. By game three the Chaos Invasion should be more varied. You'll have Daemons, WoC, Beastmen, Norsca, and Chaos Dwarfs. Armies of these different factions should spawn in different places and at different times, and then should behave differently, giving the Chaos Invasion more flavor.

    3. I would also like to see the Chaos Invasion updated with something resembling an end goal that the player can thwart. In the actual End Times Archaon stopped his invasion at Middenheim to enact a ritual that would end the world while all the other factions rushed to try and stop him. While Middenheim is probably too far north to make for a good challenge, some similar scenario where Archaon halts and a big countdown starts, during which you can delay him by taking actions to add time to the timer, and can ultimately stop him by fighting through the defending Chaos forces and defeating Archaon at the ritual site, would be a better way for the endgame to go, I think.
  • ThomassiniThomassini Registered Users Posts: 745
    edited February 2019
    Goatforce said:

    Bring in Nagash somehow. Create a CW ruleset that allows them to occupy territory or make it more Chaos-friendly in some way than the current mechanics. Let the Daemons and such reap the benefits as hordes. Greenskins, Skaven and Vampires can carry on doing their usual shenanigans. Boom, multi-headed threat. A veritable hydra of danger for the more civilised societies.

    Perhaps instead of waves, large settlements that are taken by chaos have a chance to summon more armies (perhaps 5% per cap per turn). Think this would work better when daemons are added, having "mini warp rifts" in razed large settlements occasionally spawning daemons - so the better WoC do the more DoC will have a presence (though the 4 DoC LLs will spawn still). I do hope that in game 3 the Chaos invasions will actually feel like the end of days. Edit, I think that Chaos would be quite interesting as a "snowballing threat", that can quickly get out of hand if ignored, rather than just arbitrary waves.

    As you say a Nagash threat would also be great, having 2 big threats would be great, perhaps it would be good if Nagash could be convinced to help against chaos too (I know very ET), but would make the campaign more dynamic (as long as it doesn't happen every time).
    These are some AMAZING ideas. The synergy between Chaos Daemons and Warriors could do a way to make their gameplay more interesting. Warriors because their current horde gameplay is lackluster and boring; give them settlements in the Chaos Wastes, make them play The Great Game between themselves early and mid game while launching sporadic incursions into Kislev and beyond; winner gets to unite the tribes and launch a major invasion of the Olde and New Worlde. You can still occupy settlements as a twisted, chaotic parody of their former glory. Appropriate settlement model would be necessary (hints: Praag made of bodies, blood and skulls & similar motifs). All to make the invasion more lasting and limit AI clowns prancing around recolonizing instead of fighting.

    Meanwhile, Daemons will have to rely much on the progress of their mortal brethren and as such be encouraged to help them. Portals (either built by Warriors in their cities OR “planted” in Warriors-controlled cities Vampirates-style) would help them replenish and “recruit” (well, summon would be more appropriate) new units/armies. Without portals built in the ChWarriors-occupied cities Daemons would only be allowed one full army, or alternatively have a mechanic of worldwide Chaos corruption meter; the less it is, the less armies can they sustain and suffer from attrition; the more, the better. There is literally plenty of ideas. The rule of the thumb would be using the synergy to crush the rest of the world, while being too weak alone to really bring total destruction.

    The cherry on the cake would be Beastmen running around and benefitting from the rampant corruption, allowing them to “plant” (again, vampiratesque) their own totems in allied Chaos-controlled cities so that they can have a respawn point to avoid total destruction. That way all the Chaos factions would function as they should during the Chaos invasion. Before the invasion the above-mentioned mechanics would also work, but just with allied Chaos factions.
  • dchip1dchip1 Registered Users Posts: 646

    .

    3. I would also like to see the Chaos Invasion updated with something resembling an end goal that the player can thwart. In the actual End Times Archaon stopped his invasion at Middenheim to enact a ritual that would end the world while all the other factions rushed to try and stop him. While Middenheim is probably too far north to make for a good challenge, some similar scenario where Archaon halts and a big countdown starts, during which you can delay him by taking actions to add time to the timer, and can ultimately stop him by fighting through the defending Chaos forces and defeating Archaon at the ritual site, would be a better way for the endgame to go, I think.


    Yeah it would be cool if there were certain goals and objectives each side could win or lose which affect the next or maybe even the final big world ending event so the factions are focused. Could be cool too if there could be sneaky side objectives like say Vlad is helping out Order but he has a secret objective to defeat a specific chaos lord to obtain a powerful magical artifact and if he's successful the next big threat is a Vampire event
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