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If you think that the camping difficulty level for faction is inaccurate, then let's change it!

misterZmisterZ Registered Users Posts: 353
I often see complaints from new players that they cannot find real begginer faction. Like some of the marked as 'easy' faction like empire is not easy to play for new player due to starting conditions and general situation. And we have "Hard" Chaos that is like the bigest one dimensional daction in terns of complexity in game that actual can be good faction to learn the basics of combat. And we get straight errors like Kroq-gar is "hard" and Mazdamundi is "normal" and we know that is NOT.
SO - my idea:
Let's make as community difficulty level chart and make seperate category for faction difficulty and initial challenge of campaing.
faction difficulty it's all about faction specifics on both campaing map (amber,pesant economy,tomb kings no upkeep, grudges and Etc.) and battle map (rampage, undead,chaos warrior raw combat power and Etc.) Also some subfaction will get seperate faction difficulty that have uniqe mechanics.
I will glad for your opinion!

Comments

  • Federykx99Federykx99 Registered Users Posts: 562
    edited March 2019
    Is empire really that hard?
    My first ever campaign was in wh1 as Volkmar on medium/medium, and it was pretty easy. I just relied on autoresolve for most battles while only fighting the ones where it was a clear steamroll in order to gradually learn how play as them.

    Also, perhaps it would be better if this was moved to the new players section? (I don't know)
  • MarkerMarker Registered Users Posts: 1,193
    I think Bretonnia, Skaven and the Lizardman are the hardest, the last two will change with the upcoming DLC.
    The rest are okay in my opinion. if u use Diplomacy and Scouting well from the start u can win with everyone everywhere.
  • makar55makar55 Registered Users Posts: 1,951

    Is empire really that hard?
    My first ever campaign was in wh1 as Volkmar on medium/medium, and it was pretty easy. I just relied on autoresolve for most battles while only fighting the ones where it was a clear steamroll in order to gradually learn how play as them.

    Also, perhaps it would be better if this was moved to the new players section? (I don't know)

    Total War Warhammer 1 is no match to TWW2 in terms of difficulty.
  • FrostPawFrostPaw Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    I'm in the process of failing my first ME campaign ever. As Norsca, I just can't push out of the north without Vampire counts and High Elves crushing my settlements. In a bizzare turn of events, I'm being forced into defending with barely enough funds to support three armies and facing high elves multiple armies to the north and vampire counts multiple armies to the south. Everyone else is dead, even though each of my armies is capable of beating 2-3 enemy armies I just can't push out.

    I think the speed of AI resettlement and the new bias toward Undead is killing me.
  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Registered Users Posts: 1,006
    FrostPaw said:

    I'm in the process of failing my first ME campaign ever. As Norsca, I just can't push out of the north without Vampire counts and High Elves crushing my settlements. In a bizzare turn of events, I'm being forced into defending with barely enough funds to support three armies and facing high elves multiple armies to the north and vampire counts multiple armies to the south. Everyone else is dead, even though each of my armies is capable of beating 2-3 enemy armies I just can't push out.

    I think the speed of AI resettlement and the new bias toward Undead is killing me.

    I don't like playing as Norsca in ME on higher difficulties. Norsca can be attacked from multiple fronts and the geography makes it hard to defend. The great power debuff comes online really early if you unite the tribes and can lead to every faction ganging up on you. Norscan settlements have weak garrisons and no walls. The climate system is very annoying to deal with when the AI resettles everything. The new supply lines make fielding armies in the early game punishing with the non-existent economy. There's no chaos forces to help you deal with the whole world, since they're tied to your own meter.
    They were much more enjoyable in 1. Here, they are very tedious and I can only enjoy them with mods.
    A very anti new player faction.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 1,864
    edited March 2019
    FrostPaw said:

    I'm in the process of failing my first ME campaign ever. As Norsca, I just can't push out of the north without Vampire counts and High Elves crushing my settlements. In a bizzare turn of events, I'm being forced into defending with barely enough funds to support three armies and facing high elves multiple armies to the north and vampire counts multiple armies to the south. Everyone else is dead, even though each of my armies is capable of beating 2-3 enemy armies I just can't push out.

    I think the speed of AI resettlement and the new bias toward Undead is killing me.

    Okey, so lets also remove eight or more units that have armour piercing on the Dwarves faction to even it up a bit, and also delete some of the empire units since they have forty, and bring them down to the von Carsteins and other factions to the same twenty seven or so units they have, and then re-balance it on that level. Lets also limit the amount of ranged a non undead army can have in their force to just two, the same as the von Carsteins. That's just for starters. Since I am hmm also finding it hard, yes hard, fighting Dwarfs and Empire, Greenskins.

    Flag it all you like. Its a legitimate complaint. Why should others be so OP in armour peircing, unit amount, and free armies. Others can scream bias and nerf for undead, but when it comes round, they don't like it. I'll have to have a look at the dark elves also. They feel way too strong at the moment.
    Post edited by Lucifer on


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein

    My steam workshop Warhammer II mods
  • FrostPawFrostPaw Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    Lucifer said:

    FrostPaw said:

    I'm in the process of failing my first ME campaign ever. As Norsca, I just can't push out of the north without Vampire counts and High Elves crushing my settlements. In a bizzare turn of events, I'm being forced into defending with barely enough funds to support three armies and facing high elves multiple armies to the north and vampire counts multiple armies to the south. Everyone else is dead, even though each of my armies is capable of beating 2-3 enemy armies I just can't push out.

    I think the speed of AI resettlement and the new bias toward Undead is killing me.

    Okey, so lets also remove eight or more units that have armour piercing on the Dwarves faction to even it up a bit, and also delete some of the empire units since they have forty, and bring them down to the von Carsteins and other factions to the same twenty seven or so units they have, and then re-balance it on that level. Lets also limit the amount of ranged a non undead army can have in their force to just two, the same as the von Carsteins. That's just for starters. Since I am hmm also finding it hard, yes hard, fighting Dwarfs and Empire, Greenskins.
    Not my first campaign with the faction.... the first campaign I've ever failed. Played over 1500 hours with all of the factions.

    There is something unbalanced if I don't lose fights unyet I can't leave my own territorial border due to getting bombarded with 7+ enemy armies that overwhelm the only 3 armies I can support. and make short work of my none walled settlements.

    FrostPaw said:

    I'm in the process of failing my first ME campaign ever. As Norsca, I just can't push out of the north without Vampire counts and High Elves crushing my settlements. In a bizzare turn of events, I'm being forced into defending with barely enough funds to support three armies and facing high elves multiple armies to the north and vampire counts multiple armies to the south. Everyone else is dead, even though each of my armies is capable of beating 2-3 enemy armies I just can't push out.

    I think the speed of AI resettlement and the new bias toward Undead is killing me.

    I don't like playing as Norsca in ME on higher difficulties. Norsca can be attacked from multiple fronts and the geography makes it hard to defend. The great power debuff comes online really early if you unite the tribes and can lead to every faction ganging up on you. Norscan settlements have weak garrisons and no walls. The climate system is very annoying to deal with when the AI resettles everything. The new supply lines make fielding armies in the early game punishing with the non-existent economy. There's no chaos forces to help you deal with the whole world, since they're tied to your own meter.
    They were much more enjoyable in 1. Here, they are very tedious and I can only enjoy them with mods.
    A very anti new player faction.
    I'm learning this, Its a slow agonising death, but my enemies are expanding and I am not. There is only one outcome when being tied to settlements without walls and an economy that requires you to leave them.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 1,864
    edited March 2019
    misterZ said:

    I often see complaints from new players that they cannot find real begginer faction. Like some of the marked as 'easy' faction like empire is not easy to play for new player due to starting conditions and general situation. And we have "Hard" Chaos that is like the bigest one dimensional daction in terns of complexity in game that actual can be good faction to learn the basics of combat. And we get straight errors like Kroq-gar is "hard" and Mazdamundi is "normal" and we know that is NOT.
    SO - my idea:
    Let's make as community difficulty level chart and make seperate category for faction difficulty and initial challenge of campaing.
    faction difficulty it's all about faction specifics on both campaing map (amber,pesant economy,tomb kings no upkeep, grudges and Etc.) and battle map (rampage, undead,chaos warrior raw combat power and Etc.) Also some subfaction will get seperate faction difficulty that have uniqe mechanics.
    I will glad for your opinion!

    I couldn't agree more. I always struggle playing the von Carsteins who cannot match the dwarves in armour piercing as they have too much armour and too overpowered. I mean look at the iron drakes, its ludicrus how op they are. Lets bring all the faction levels to a more equal level. There's a few other factions also that need to have a few balance passes on also. Empire for one, and Greenskins are too overpowered now. They need nerfed.


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein

    My steam workshop Warhammer II mods
  • BigbadbearpieceBigbadbearpiece Registered Users Posts: 79
    My personal feelings:

    Malekith = Normal
    Morathi = Easy
    Hellebron = Hard
    Squidface = Normal
    Queek = Hard
    Skrolk = Normal
    Tretch = Hard
    Kroq-Gar = Easy
    Mazdamundi = Hard
    Tyrion = Easy
    Teclis = Normal
    Alarielle = Easy
    Alith Anar = Hard
    Settra = Normal
    Arkhan = Easy
    Khatep = VERY HARD
    Khalida = Normal
    Vampire Coast = Very Easy

    I play mostly on hard, for he record. Occasionally on Very Hard if I don’t want to have fun.
    More LL for Wood Elves please.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 1,864
    FrostPaw said:

    Lucifer said:

    FrostPaw said:

    I'm in the process of failing my first ME campaign ever. As Norsca, I just can't push out of the north without Vampire counts and High Elves crushing my settlements. In a bizzare turn of events, I'm being forced into defending with barely enough funds to support three armies and facing high elves multiple armies to the north and vampire counts multiple armies to the south. Everyone else is dead, even though each of my armies is capable of beating 2-3 enemy armies I just can't push out.

    I think the speed of AI resettlement and the new bias toward Undead is killing me.

    Okey, so lets also remove eight or more units that have armour piercing on the Dwarves faction to even it up a bit, and also delete some of the empire units since they have forty, and bring them down to the von Carsteins and other factions to the same twenty seven or so units they have, and then re-balance it on that level. Lets also limit the amount of ranged a non undead army can have in their force to just two, the same as the von Carsteins. That's just for starters. Since I am hmm also finding it hard, yes hard, fighting Dwarfs and Empire, Greenskins.
    Not my first campaign with the faction.... the first campaign I've ever failed. Played over 1500 hours with all of the factions.

    There is something unbalanced if I don't lose fights unyet I can't leave my own territorial border due to getting bombarded with 7+ enemy armies that overwhelm the only 3 armies I can support. and make short work of my none walled settlements.

    FrostPaw said:

    I'm in the process of failing my first ME campaign ever. As Norsca, I just can't push out of the north without Vampire counts and High Elves crushing my settlements. In a bizzare turn of events, I'm being forced into defending with barely enough funds to support three armies and facing high elves multiple armies to the north and vampire counts multiple armies to the south. Everyone else is dead, even though each of my armies is capable of beating 2-3 enemy armies I just can't push out.

    I think the speed of AI resettlement and the new bias toward Undead is killing me.

    I don't like playing as Norsca in ME on higher difficulties. Norsca can be attacked from multiple fronts and the geography makes it hard to defend. The great power debuff comes online really early if you unite the tribes and can lead to every faction ganging up on you. Norscan settlements have weak garrisons and no walls. The climate system is very annoying to deal with when the AI resettles everything. The new supply lines make fielding armies in the early game punishing with the non-existent economy. There's no chaos forces to help you deal with the whole world, since they're tied to your own meter.
    They were much more enjoyable in 1. Here, they are very tedious and I can only enjoy them with mods.
    A very anti new player faction.
    I'm learning this, Its a slow agonising death, but my enemies are expanding and I am not. There is only one outcome when being tied to settlements without walls and an economy that requires you to leave them.
    Same, I struggle also fighting empire, greenskins and dwarves. They all need toned down. Greenskins need to pay for the waagh, it joins you and thus you should be responsible for its upkeep. A waagh tax is needed, along with less units in Empire, too much artillery and ranged per army. Needs reduced to two units per army. Also, the dwarves need their armour reduced and less units with armour piercing. I've also got much time spent in part one and part two, and I've lost a few to these factions.


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein

    My steam workshop Warhammer II mods
  • Federykx99Federykx99 Registered Users Posts: 562
    makar55 said:

    Is empire really that hard?
    My first ever campaign was in wh1 as Volkmar on medium/medium, and it was pretty easy. I just relied on autoresolve for most battles while only fighting the ones where it was a clear steamroll in order to gradually learn how play as them.

    Also, perhaps it would be better if this was moved to the new players section? (I don't know)

    Total War Warhammer 1 is no match to TWW2 in terms of difficulty.
    Again, the second and last campaign I ever played was Vortex Hard/Medium as Mazdamundi, it took me a bit more turns but it seemed pretty straightforward and easy to me, even though I see most of you put him on the hard side. And note that I utterly suck at microing and using buff magic, and I used the same strategy of autoresolving and gradually fighting more and more. I'm guessing I just got lucky then.
  • GettoGeckoGettoGecko Registered Users Posts: 931
    @misterZ

    The thing is, a new player needs to learn and understand the basics of the game first before he can make a conclusion about whats difficulty or not. An experienced player who knows the core gameplay mechanics has a different expectation of the difficulty which is mainly the faction itself and its start position.

    You talked about the Empire, like every order faction it has a strong economy, diverse building options and a well rounded (if not the best) unit selection and it start position gives plenty of options on how you want to play a campaign with them which gives them a great replay value.
    As an experienced player these makes the empire a really easy and relaxing to play faction with a versatile start position but for really new players it could cause problems because there are too much options which confronts them.
    So new players normally struggle with how to build their economy, which unit buildings to build where and when, how to compose a good army and expanding into which direction. They are simply overwhelmed by informations and choices while still trying to learn the basics but all of that dosn't make the Empire a hard faction or a hard starting point its just the amount of things they need to know which makes them think its hard but for an experienced player the Empire is a strong faction surrounded by mostly friendly an neutral AI's putting making it a save position without pressure.

    Is empire really that hard?

    No its not.


    So new players will have problems with other stuff than experienced players and I think the difficulty should reflect the choices for the majority of players and not only beginners because than all skaven should been labeled as very hard but Skrolk and his position makes them pretty easy even when you struggle with learning how to play them on the battlefield. Similar problem goes for Tomb Kings since they are a pretty easy faction if the player prefers an offensive and expansive playstyle while players with a defensive and upgrade oriented playstyle often struggle with them.
    So in the end you can only compare the difficulty between factions when you have a lot of experience with the different LL and their starting positions and the comparion probably don't match that well with the what a beginner things about its first campaigns with different LL.

    So for me personally Empire and HE are the easiest because of their strong factions and start positions with no non order LL nearby and I think beginners should stay away from Skaven and DLC factions until they got the basics.
  • LuciferLucifer Member England U.KRegistered Users Posts: 1,864

    @misterZ

    The thing is, a new player needs to learn and understand the basics of the game first before he can make a conclusion about whats difficulty or not. An experienced player who knows the core gameplay mechanics has a different expectation of the difficulty which is mainly the faction itself and its start position.

    You talked about the Empire, like every order faction it has a strong economy, diverse building options and a well rounded (if not the best) unit selection and it start position gives plenty of options on how you want to play a campaign with them which gives them a great replay value.
    As an experienced player these makes the empire a really easy and relaxing to play faction with a versatile start position but for really new players it could cause problems because there are too much options which confronts them.
    So new players normally struggle with how to build their economy, which unit buildings to build where and when, how to compose a good army and expanding into which direction. They are simply overwhelmed by informations and choices while still trying to learn the basics but all of that dosn't make the Empire a hard faction or a hard starting point its just the amount of things they need to know which makes them think its hard but for an experienced player the Empire is a strong faction surrounded by mostly friendly an neutral AI's putting making it a save position without pressure.

    Is empire really that hard?

    No its not.


    So new players will have problems with other stuff than experienced players and I think the difficulty should reflect the choices for the majority of players and not only beginners because than all skaven should been labeled as very hard but Skrolk and his position makes them pretty easy even when you struggle with learning how to play them on the battlefield. Similar problem goes for Tomb Kings since they are a pretty easy faction if the player prefers an offensive and expansive playstyle while players with a defensive and upgrade oriented playstyle often struggle with them.
    So in the end you can only compare the difficulty between factions when you have a lot of experience with the different LL and their starting positions and the comparion probably don't match that well with the what a beginner things about its first campaigns with different LL.

    So for me personally Empire and HE are the easiest because of their strong factions and start positions with no non order LL nearby and I think beginners should stay away from Skaven and DLC factions until they got the basics.
    I agree much with this, and what I feel the game needs for new players is an option that gives you missions like building buildings, recruiting troops, but make it explain in depth what it all does and how it all fits to make your faction function better and be stronger for it. A bit like a mini lets play, but guided over a number of turns. While in that mode, the ai is passive, to give the player time to adjust, absorb the information, and how best to react to certain situations.


    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein

    My steam workshop Warhammer II mods
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,103
    Game 1 was definitely more accurate in terms of telling you which starting positions were difficult vs cakewalks.

    While Game 2 is less accurate in describing the difficulty rating of certain factions, imo, it isn’t really hard to find an easy start for new players, nor is it hard to find a challenge.

    Tyrion, for example is easy and identified as such. Queek is more difficult but identified as such.

    In terms of quibbling over whether the Empire or Mazda have truly hard/easy start positions....yeah I don’t think CA describes them correctly, but I don’t think it creates any sort of misleading crisis for new players. Nor is there likely to be any community consensus on this. Definitely not before the thread gets bumped to where no new player would read it anyways.
  • PdcGunnerPdcGunner Registered Users Posts: 385
    Marker said:

    I think Bretonnia, Skaven and the Lizardman are the hardest, the last two will change with the upcoming DLC.
    The rest are okay in my opinion. if u use Diplomacy and Scouting well from the start u can win with everyone everywhere.

    Don't know about Mazdamundi (heard it is hard), But I played a vortex campaign as Kroc Gar and his faction buffs make his campaign a cakewalk if you know what you are doing. (might do Mazda after LP or P of Sotek after LP)

    Haven't played too much of Britonnian faction to get an idea of their playstyle. I played like 20 turns as Bordeleaux and wiped out Mousilon and that was it. (going to wait until the update to proabably play as the Fay Enchantress).

    Skaven can be difficult early on and takes a different playstyle and relies on must use units. I played a Skrolk campaign and it took a few tries to get the hang of it and this was before Fellheart came around (makes it harder since fellhearts capital was originally just ruins). Queek is pretty hard as he has difficult starts in both mortal empires and vortex.
  • AsyranAsyran Registered Users Posts: 559
    My list for ME:

    Easy:
    - Vampire Counts
    - Dwarfs
    - Naggarond
    - Lothern
    - Wood Elves

    Normal:
    - Norsca
    - Carcassone
    - Averlorn
    - Clan Pestilens
    - Last Defenders
    - Bloody Handz
    - Argwylon
    - Vampire Coast
    - Sartosa
    - Dreadfleet
    - Cult of Pleasure
    - Har Ganeth

    Hard:
    - Khemri
    - Crooked Moon
    - Karak Kadrin
    - Von Carstein
    - Empire
    - Bretonnia
    - Barrow Legion
    - Wintertooth
    - Followers of Nagash
    - The Blessed Dread
    - The Drowned
    - Beastmen
    - Warriors of Chaos
    - Greenskins
    - Clan Rictus
    - Naggarythe

    Very Hard:
    - Court of Lybaras
    - Hexoatl
    - Exiles of Nehek
    - Clan Mors
    - Clan Angrund
    - Order of Loremasters
    - Bordeloux
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 7,089
    Belegar - Fun
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • seryssseryss Registered Users Posts: 5
    edited March 2019
    Mortal empires

    Easy campaigns

    Tyrion - take out the other elfs > confederate with the other elf legendary lord in ulthuan> kill dark elfs> win.

    Alarielle - ditto.

    Kroq Gar - you can only be attacked from 1 direction - the direction you're army is going toward. 1 of the 4 factions likes you, the other 3 have nothing that can beat your saurus for a looooooong time. Super easy.

    Khalida - If you play it a specific way...

    Basically take lahmia turn 3, then the other regional city, seige rassetra around turn 7 (build a PO buiding and turn taxes off to prevent rebellion), then go to doom glade where 1 of 2 things has happened. Mordkin colonized it or they didnt. If they did war dec and sack that city over and over until kroq gar shows up. If they didn't then go to next region and start raiding them until kroq gar kills them.

    Your goal is to A. get kroq gar friendly enough he doesnt war dec and attack you first, and B. get him to colonize doom glade then wipe his army out. Once that's done your second army should be online, When you have 200 canopic jars get the 4th dynasty TK with 3 ushabti, and a casket of souls. Now this campaign is a breeze.


  • chrissher7chrissher7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,038
    Mazdamundi is a hard start from memory at least in vortex no idea why he is listed as normal when skeggi and probably now cylostra are both near and are large threats.

  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,684
    FrostPaw said:



    There is something unbalanced if I don't lose fights unyet I can't leave my own territorial border due to getting bombarded with 7+ enemy armies that overwhelm the only 3 armies I can support. and make short work of my none walled settlements.

    I'm learning this, Its a slow agonising death, but my enemies are expanding and I am not. There is only one outcome when being tied to settlements without walls and an economy that requires you to leave them.

    A couple of comments on Norsca difficulty.

    You can win as Bretonnia, WE, Warriors of Chaos, Norsca, Tomb Kings, and Vampire Coast without painting the map.

    To win as Norsca, you need the favor of the dark gods. Once you either become the Everchosen, or you ally with Archaon, then you can expand and paint the map. So I wouldn't worry about whether your enemies are expanding, the real question is are you making progress towards becoming the Everchosen.

    Similarly, when playing Bretonnia, the question is are you gaining chivalry? When playing Vampire Coast, are you gaining infamy? When playing Wood Elves, are you advancing the Tree of Ages? etc.

    I totally agree that the Norsca 17 or so settlements only give enough income to support 3 or so armies, if that.

    When I play Norsca, my two main armies with Wulfric and Throgg raze enemy settlements and perform the monster hunts. If the enemy razes half of Norcsa while I'm away, oh well, that's what happens. I don't put a lot of effort into defending Norsca, although I do build the garrison buildings.





  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,684
    A comment on this thread in general. Its really interesting to see the different perspectives people have on difficulty in this thread.

    For example, Morathi/the Cult of Pleasure and Malekith/Naggarond.

    Bigbadbearpiece listed Morathi as Easy and Malekith as Normal

    Asyran listed Morathi as Normal and Malekith as Easy.

    I would list Morathi as Hard and Malekith as Easy.
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