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Make an Empire Total War II

GalceranMarquetGalceranMarquet Posts: 7Registered Users
This post is written for https://www.creative-assembly.com to read it. If you think about it, CA hasn't been creating gunpowder total wars after the release of Napoleon Total war. Shogun 2 doesn't count as you only have gunpowder battles if you have the Fall of the samurai DLC. Also, all old total war games (Shogun, Medieval, Rome, Empire) had a second part except Empire Total war so I and lots of Total War users think that Empire should have a another version.
But of course the new Empire II shouldn't be released without having new and better things than the old one so here is a list of the most important things that the second part should have:

-- Amphibian battles: This means that we should be able to play battles where you could fight with ships and battlefield troops at the same time making able to shoot the land armies with the ships and vice versa. Just like all the Total war games from Rome II.

-- Create a "historical" unit size option: that option would make every unit as big as in real life was. In this total war, an infantry unit would have 500 men and the cavalry 150 as the tactical unit on that time was the battalion

--Better CPU logic: with this we demand a better battlefield strategy and an improvised logic in the diplomacy

-- Better order on campaign provinces: the campaign of Empire Total War was a mess when talking about provinces. Some provinces were ahistorical and others were huge but you could conquer all of it with just invading their capital. E.G. France, everyone remembers conquering Paris and having the whole country under your control.

-- Making some minor nation playable: countries such as Portugal, Denmark, Bavaria and the Principality of Catalonia* weren't able to be played although they had an important paper in that time.
That's all, if you have something that you disagree comment below and I'll be answering.



*The Principality of Catalonia was an historical and real state (existed from 1165 to 1714) . For those who are going to say that Catalonia was inside the Crown of Aragon they're right, but from the XVI century the Crown didn't worked as a unique government and army either (It was similar to the Holy Roman Empire) and Catalonia was the only state of the Crown that had a normal army in terms of numbers. If CA https://www.creative-assembly.com is interested in that faction to be added in the possible new Total War game, contact with me by steam or my gmail: [email protected]

Comments

  • CommisarCommisar Senior Member Posts: 1,213Registered Users
    While I do agree that another Empire game would be good and they've made a few mechanics that would be great for it (colonisation, army supplies, unit upgrades and deployment on walls) however issues with your suggestions.

    Amphibious battles, not really a thing. Ships didn't work well at dropping off lots of men quickly. They'd need a safe port to dock and let them climb down that way. Otherwise it's the ships boat being rowed out and dropping off small groups of men. Naval fire, they struggle to hit other ships. The cannons weren't intended for long range support. Only make sense during a coastal fort attack where the navy has ships such as Bomb Ketches.

    Historical unit sizes I don't see working. Performance, path finding, game length and just trying to keep track would be a nightmare.

    AI has been getting better but a lot still seems focused on having total war rather than a Pdox type system where they make moves that make sense. Seems to be part of the series design (e.g. 1 province faction refusing any dealings with the player so it just gets stomped)

    Would say that is solved by the new game systems however they will also fall bad for such a title, current system would have your new colonies with more wealth than European capitals.

    More nations, that would seem pretty given. Lots of DLC faction packs for them to sell. However I wouldn't hold hope for The Principality of Catalonia.
  • GalceranMarquetGalceranMarquet Posts: 7Registered Users
    First of all, thanks for giving you opinion. After that i will answer you some of the things you said.

    About amphibious battles: even tough the cannons of the ships weren't usually used as long range weapons in coastal battles, we shouldn't discard it just because historically they didn't do that. And also I didn't write that idea just to make epic battles, but also to give more importance to the naval forces in the campaign because in Empire and Napoleon you just could easily conquer all the world without a single ship as you could just block commercial routes and block harbors, but that was all. And historically, naval forces were a lot more important that etw and ntw shows.

    When talking about historical units, i guess you're trying to say that they would be too big, so the solution is just to make the battlefields bigger when choosing the option of historical units. And also, as the name says, its just an option so you aren't forced to have that.

    And finally I would like to understand what do you mean when saying that you wouldn't hold hope for the Principality of Catalonia. With that do you mean that you don't think that CA would add that faction or just that you think that it shouldn't be in the game?

    Commisar said:

    While I do agree that another Empire game would be good and they've made a few mechanics that would be great for it (colonisation, army supplies, unit upgrades and deployment on walls) however issues with your suggestions.

    Amphibious battles, not really a thing. Ships didn't work well at dropping off lots of men quickly. They'd need a safe port to dock and let them climb down that way. Otherwise it's the ships boat being rowed out and dropping off small groups of men. Naval fire, they struggle to hit other ships. The cannons weren't intended for long range support. Only make sense during a coastal fort attack where the navy has ships such as Bomb Ketches.

    Historical unit sizes I don't see working. Performance, path finding, game length and just trying to keep track would be a nightmare.

    AI has been getting better but a lot still seems focused on having total war rather than a Pdox type system where they make moves that make sense. Seems to be part of the series design (e.g. 1 province faction refusing any dealings with the player so it just gets stomped)

    Would say that is solved by the new game systems however they will also fall bad for such a title, current system would have your new colonies with more wealth than European capitals.

    More nations, that would seem pretty given. Lots of DLC faction packs for them to sell. However I wouldn't hold hope for The Principality of Catalonia.

  • CommisarCommisar Senior Member Posts: 1,213Registered Users

    About amphibious battles: even tough the cannons of the ships weren't usually used as long range weapons in coastal battles, we shouldn't discard it just because historically they didn't do that.

    It should be ruled out. It wasn't possible without the fighting being on the beech in front of the ships.

    And also I didn't write that idea just to make epic battles, but also to give more importance to the naval forces in the campaign because in Empire and Napoleon you just could easily conquer all the world without a single ship as you could just block commercial routes and block harbors, but that was all. And historically, naval forces were a lot more important that etw and ntw shows.

    It wouldn't make for epic battles. The battles in FotS weren't epic because magic shells appeared out of no where. I'd say they harm the gameplay, made cities near the coast pointless to defend against a player.

    You couldn't conquer the world in Empire without ships. You needed them to conquer the all the islands and the new world/old world depending which faction you were. Napoleon again you couldn't as you still needed them to get to the islands. They weren't as important over all but they weren't that important overall in the war. France and Spain lost their fleets yet it didn't stop them doing well on land. Britain dominated the seas yet didn't give us the advantage on land. We needed the sea to keep supplying forces on the continent and pressing our power to the colonies.

    You'd still easily take over the world without a fleet, the main cities are away from the sea so easily taken. The issue in game is just how easy it is to control over seas land. If you start with a city in the new world or in India you don't need anything from back home, there's no issue in pirates/smugglers popping up. They did improve that recently with the loss of maritime income. If they reduced your trade routes income, that would make having fleets of small ships important. But then we run in to another issue they've made with the new games, fleet and army caps.

    When talking about historical units, i guess you're trying to say that they would be too big, so the solution is just to make the battlefields bigger when choosing the option of historical units. And also, as the name says, its just an option so you aren't forced to have that.

    It's more than just the size of the battlefield. It's also the battlefield objects. You wouldn't be able to fit them in streets or a fort in game. When the unit tries to move it will struggle as they hit so many little things at different points and similar issue with attack orders, they'd need to move in to a point where a large part can fire which makes anything not directly in front a problem.

    As an official element it will still need to be playable, the amount of work to do so would be immense for such a small number of people who could run it.

    And finally I would like to understand what do you mean when saying that you wouldn't hold hope for the Principality of Catalonia. With that do you mean that you don't think that CA would add that faction or just that you think that it shouldn't be in the game?

    Means I don't see it being a possibility of them being in game and none of them being playable so I wouldn't hold hope that they'd be included if I was you.
  • TheGreatPamphletTheGreatPamphlet Posts: 173Registered Users
    Persia and the Mughal Empire also deserved to be playable, probably more than Denmark, Portugal and the insignificant Catalonia. Total War maps depict only independent states and protectorates and Hapsburg Catalonia was, at best, a federal statelet.
    Nestor.

    Allah, Suriya, Bashar w Bas!
  • GalceranMarquetGalceranMarquet Posts: 7Registered Users

    Persia and the Mughal Empire also deserved to be playable, probably more than Denmark, Portugal and the insignificant Catalonia. Total War maps depict only independent states and protectorates and Hapsburg Catalonia was, at best, a federal statelet.

    What about hannover, wurtemburg or saxony? They were also in a "federal state" or they also were sharing the same king with another state, and perhaps, they are shown in Empire as a country, I don't understand why couldnt catalonia be playable or at least to be in the game. Denmark itself its more or less as big as catalonia in therms of territory. So I think that Catalonia has all the requirements to be a playable faction in the game.
  • CommisarCommisar Senior Member Posts: 1,213Registered Users

    What about hannover, wurtemburg or saxony? They were also in a "federal state" or they also were sharing the same king with another state, and perhaps, they are shown in Empire as a country, I don't understand why couldnt catalonia be playable or at least to be in the game. Denmark itself its more or less as big as catalonia in therms of territory. So I think that Catalonia has all the requirements to be a playable faction in the game.

    By "federal state" are you talking about the HRE? That was very loose over all and the states had their own international position, I've not seen the same for Catalonia.

    Size of the land only matters if it is big enough to see on the map and be clickable. Denmark fits that and had it's own place in the events of the world, Catalonia didn't. It was dragged along with Spain in this time frame.
  • GalceranMarquetGalceranMarquet Posts: 7Registered Users
    Commisar said:

    What about hannover, wurtemburg or saxony? They were also in a "federal state" or they also were sharing the same king with another state, and perhaps, they are shown in Empire as a country, I don't understand why couldnt catalonia be playable or at least to be in the game. Denmark itself its more or less as big as catalonia in therms of territory. So I think that Catalonia has all the requirements to be a playable faction in the game.

    By "federal state" are you talking about the HRE? That was very loose over all and the states had their own international position, I've not seen the same for Catalonia.

    Size of the land only matters if it is big enough to see on the map and be clickable. Denmark fits that and had it's own place in the events of the world, Catalonia didn't. It was dragged along with Spain in this time frame.
    Yes, for federal state i meant the HRE and you're when you said that HRE wasnt exactly a federal state as all these little states generally went for their own. However, the Spanish Crown wasn't a unitary state. The Spanish Crown was basically the Crown of Castile and the Crown of Aragon sharing the same king (which Britain and Hannover also did and as you can clearly see, Hannover is in the campaign). Even though these two crowns shared the same king, they had their own sovereignty, governments, and they didn't necessarily had to share troops or armies.
    Maybe Catalonia wasn't in all the important wars or conflicts but it had an even sovereignty, territory and military strenght to at least be at the game. Also, there thousands of faction much more little than Catalonia and perhaps, they are depicted in the game. It's easy to find false information about Catalonia's history in superficial internet sources because Spain has been trying to cover it for years as also Germany did to Polish'.
  • CommisarCommisar Senior Member Posts: 1,213Registered Users
    edited February 1

    Yes, for federal state i meant the HRE and you're when you said that HRE wasnt exactly a federal state as all these little states generally went for their own. However, the Spanish Crown wasn't a unitary state. The Spanish Crown was basically the Crown of Castile and the Crown of Aragon sharing the same king (which Britain and Hannover also did and as you can clearly see, Hannover is in the campaign). Even though these two crowns shared the same king, they had their own sovereignty, governments, and they didn't necessarily had to share troops or armies.
    Maybe Catalonia wasn't in all the important wars or conflicts but it had an even sovereignty, territory and military strenght to at least be at the game. Also, there thousands of faction much more little than Catalonia and perhaps, they are depicted in the game. It's easy to find false information about Catalonia's history in superficial internet sources because Spain has been trying to cover it for years as also Germany did to Polish'.

    Not the same as Britain and Hannover, the fact you called it "Britain" shows it's not the same. "Britain" didn't exist at the game start, it was like how you are describing Spain. It was a King ruling over multiple nations. King of England, Scotland and Lord of Ireland, they didn't become combined till the acts of union. These nations had their own governing bodies and legal systems. But they were heavily linked unlike Britain and Hanover. The diplomatic ties is the key for the game. Scotland shared the diplomatic position as England, Hanover didn't.

    So unless you can show that Catalonia at the game start had it's own international standing, it would be a direct part of Spain.

    It would fit as a possible rebel nation or nation that could be "liberated" like in Napoleon.
  • GalceranMarquetGalceranMarquet Posts: 7Registered Users
    edited February 10
    Commisar said:

    Yes, for federal state i meant the HRE and you're when you said that HRE wasnt exactly a federal state as all these little states generally went for their own. However, the Spanish Crown wasn't a unitary state. The Spanish Crown was basically the Crown of Castile and the Crown of Aragon sharing the same king (which Britain and Hannover also did and as you can clearly see, Hannover is in the campaign). Even though these two crowns shared the same king, they had their own sovereignty, governments, and they didn't necessarily had to share troops or armies.
    Maybe Catalonia wasn't in all the important wars or conflicts but it had an even sovereignty, territory and military strenght to at least be at the game. Also, there thousands of faction much more little than Catalonia and perhaps, they are depicted in the game. It's easy to find false information about Catalonia's history in superficial internet sources because Spain has been trying to cover it for years as also Germany did to Polish'.

    Not the same as Britain and Hannover, the fact you called it "Britain" shows it's not the same. "Britain" didn't exist at the game start, it was like how you are describing Spain. It was a King ruling over multiple nations. King of England, Scotland and Lord of Ireland, they didn't become combined till the acts of union. These nations had their own governing bodies and legal systems. But they were heavily linked unlike Britain and Hanover. The diplomatic ties is the key for the game. Scotland shared the diplomatic position as England, Hanover didn't.

    So unless you can show that Catalonia at the game start had it's own international standing, it would be a direct part of Spain.

    It would fit as a possible rebel nation or nation that could be "liberated" like in Napoleon.
    The XVIII century began with the War of Spanish Succession. In the whole war, Catalonia was a member of the Allies meanwhile the Crown of Castile (Spanish Monarchy) was in the Borbonic side. What I'm trying to say with this, is that Catalonia and Spanish Monarchy had different political and diplomatic positions. Also it had ambassadors in most of the European states. So with that being said, there's even more reason to put Catalonia as a faction if Empire II is ever created.
  • CommisarCommisar Senior Member Posts: 1,213Registered Users

    The XVIII century began with the War of Spanish Succession. In the whole war, Catalonia was a member of the Allies meanwhile the Crown of Castile (Spanish Monarchy) was in the Borbonic side. What I'm trying to say with this, is that Catalonia and Spanish Monarchy had different political and diplomatic positions. Also it had ambassadors in most of the European states. So with that being said, there's even more reason to put Catalonia as a faction if Empire II is ever created.

    Not unique in joining other sides and having representatives. As the war didn't start till 1701, that's not enough to split it off.

    Plus forgetting the other kingdoms that made up Spain: Aragon, Valencia, Majorca, Sicily, Naples and Sardinia. These kingdoms also had their own say on who they backed.
  • James164James164 Posts: 6Registered Users
    Hi all,

    All valid points on the historical aspects but I feel you are being sidetracked from the main points which is game improvements.

    I'd like the following for Empire ll

    1. Bigger and better map, give us the freaking globe to build on, Africa, Asia, Canada.
    2. Earlier start time so you can start on a line of research that in 20 yrs time could give you a advantage if you take a particular research path but has also its blind spots if a nation you decide to go to war with could outwit you.

    3. Naval needs to be a major focus as previous posts have mentioned, plus creating modified ships which could be interesting. Plus have the opportunity to play the battle of trafalgar with all the historical detail would be great.
    4. Diplomacy has to be a fundamental part of the game, empire l is decent taking into account how long ago it was made and was far beyond the other games of its time, but it gets tiring when a country delares war upon you that's good with you and all of a sudden changes its mind! Plus why doesn't the AI pay royalties to us when we could destroy them?? And we espically we have all the trade etc and we rarely are requested to trade agreements as we have to the work alot of the time.
    5. Trade is again very important, getting yhe advantage of trade agreements with certain continent's for a particular item and negotiating and if the price doesn't agree down the line you conquer and build your own plantations and they could vary.
    6. Also trade and diplomacy - would be good to be able to negotiate with say Sweden who are big trade suppliers with France whom you are at war with, and be able to seduce them with very low tariffs for 5 years if they stop supplies to france and its just a good buisness agreement, options like this make it more enjoyable and who doesn't like out witting your enemies.
    7. Building, in much the same way of empire l, but more choices and you get to modify, depending on its location it may have strategic reasoning for you wanting to modify like gibraltar, it very sort after etc..
    7. Arms race, via research obviously and in the same way it exists in empire l but you can have a stash of new weapons that you managed to research adn you can sell them to other nations but for a price, or they can approach you with an offer as they could be at war and thus its you who is in demand and it could be the change in the war.
    8.
    So load of ideas just need them to crack on with making it.

    Please please make Empire Total War ll, please and please
  • E2TW_just_make_itE2TW_just_make_it Posts: 2Registered Users
    I don’t know how many times I thought about the possibility of this game. It has to happen! It has to be a certain! This game has been talked and remembered for a long time by a vast number of players. It is the gunpowder total war and deserves a second chapter. Simply because it was great (even with all the issues).

    More nations, more world map (South America, Africa, Asia and Oceania deserve a greater presence), better battle mechanics for the AI, variety of weather and terrain for battles, bigger tech tree, better diplomacy, real faction leaders (not random names, at least in the first stages), more drums, more flute themes, real ship designs, no more ship turning without movement, possibility to minor repair ships during battles...I could be here without ending it.

    But mostly, make Portugal a playable faction with the isle of Açores present and with the relevance it deserves. Most trading nations stoped/passed by this island during this period since it was a safe harbor between Europe and the Americas.

    We won’t see all our wishes granted regarding this game but please, just tell us you will do it. We are sure you can develop this title.
    It would be the blast announcement of strategy/gunpowder lovers.

    Peace to all who dream with this title!
  • CommisarCommisar Senior Member Posts: 1,213Registered Users
    edited February 24
    Having watched the recent 3 piece play though of 3K it seems a bit of a two steps forward and one step back for a future Empire 2.

    Step back: Lack of naval units. Would be a big problem for this entry lol.

    Forward:
    • Diplomacy has had much needed improvements.
    • Also the addition of supply to the main series, this could be a big game changer for it and bring a wave of balance. If units are tied to a global region they could have higher supply demands so European units in Africa will take more support making it hard to supply large forces in the region and require the use of native troops. If this also ties with ports being a big requirement for supply in the over seas lands it would also make navies more important.
    I'd also say that automatic trading should be added from ToB for most European, Middle Eastern and Indian nations. China/Japan should have unique system for that. Then have "trade agreements" be more military aid (increased supply gain and unique units for some groups like Africa and the Americas) and Blockades where you block trading for a hit in relations and income.
    Post edited by Commisar on
  • GalceranMarquetGalceranMarquet Posts: 7Registered Users
    edited March 10
    Commisar said:

    The XVIII century began with the War of Spanish Succession. In the whole war, Catalonia was a member of the Allies meanwhile the Crown of Castile (Spanish Monarchy) was in the Borbonic side. What I'm trying to say with this, is that Catalonia and Spanish Monarchy had different political and diplomatic positions. Also it had ambassadors in most of the European states. So with that being said, there's even more reason to put Catalonia as a faction if Empire II is ever created.

    Not unique in joining other sides and having representatives. As the war didn't start till 1701, that's not enough to split it off.

    Plus forgetting the other kingdoms that made up Spain: Aragon, Valencia, Majorca, Sicily, Naples and Sardinia. These kingdoms also had their own say on who they backed.
    I already knew that Valencia, Aragon and all of these other states had its own representation or sovereignty. But they didn't have a remarkable army, or an army that could stand its own, or however you want to call it. But Catalonia did, and although there's a lot of things to do in TW, the main and most important topic of the game it's war. As I repeated many times, Catalonia followed all the requirements that an etw faction has to be added in the game. Maybe it's just a political thing, but i don't want to head in it. Also the reason for that post of being created was to demand CA a second version of etw so i think we just took a little out of hand lol.
  • GalceranMarquetGalceranMarquet Posts: 7Registered Users
    gger campaign map it's good
    James164 said:

    Hi all,

    All valid points on the historical aspects but I feel you are being sidetracked from the main points which is game improvements.

    I'd like the following for Empire ll

    1. Bigger and better map, give us the freaking globe to build on, Africa, Asia, Canada.
    2. Earlier start time so you can start on a line of research that in 20 yrs time could give you a advantage if you take a particular research path but has also its blind spots if a nation you decide to go to war with could outwit you.

    3. Naval needs to be a major focus as previous posts have mentioned, plus creating modified ships which could be interesting. Plus have the opportunity to play the battle of trafalgar with all the historical detail would be great.
    4. Diplomacy has to be a fundamental part of the game, empire l is decent taking into account how long ago it was made and was far beyond the other games of its time, but it gets tiring when a country delares war upon you that's good with you and all of a sudden changes its mind! Plus why doesn't the AI pay royalties to us when we could destroy them?? And we espically we have all the trade etc and we rarely are requested to trade agreements as we have to the work alot of the time.
    5. Trade is again very important, getting yhe advantage of trade agreements with certain continent's for a particular item and negotiating and if the price doesn't agree down the line you conquer and build your own plantations and they could vary.
    6. Also trade and diplomacy - would be good to be able to negotiate with say Sweden who are big trade suppliers with France whom you are at war with, and be able to seduce them with very low tariffs for 5 years if they stop supplies to france and its just a good buisness agreement, options like this make it more enjoyable and who doesn't like out witting your enemies.
    7. Building, in much the same way of empire l, but more choices and you get to modify, depending on its location it may have strategic reasoning for you wanting to modify like gibraltar, it very sort after etc..
    7. Arms race, via research obviously and in the same way it exists in empire l but you can have a stash of new weapons that you managed to research adn you can sell them to other nations but for a price, or they can approach you with an offer as they could be at war and thus its you who is in demand and it could be the change in the war.
    8.
    So load of ideas just need them to crack on with making it.

    Please please make Empire Total War ll, please and please

    I also like the idea making a bigger campaign map. But CA must sell other total war games in the future, and if they create a game that covers all the world, they will not be able to sell other games that are about an specific part of the world. But what could be possible its to at least add little settlements all over the coast of africa and japan for commercial purposes.
  • CommisarCommisar Senior Member Posts: 1,213Registered Users

    I already knew that Valencia, Aragon and all of these other states had its own representation or sovereignty. But they didn't have a remarkable army, or an army that could stand its own, or however you want to call it. But Catalonia did, and although there's a lot of things to do in TW, the main and most important topic of the game it's war. As I repeated many times, Catalonia followed all the requirements that an etw faction has to be added in the game. Maybe it's just a political thing, but i don't want to head in it. Also the reason for that post of being created was to demand CA a second version of etw so i think we just took a little out of hand lol.

    And how many nations armies are historically represented? If Catalonia has the money to raise an army so would these "nations" that would have to be added and end result is Spain is a joke.

    Also when you consider ETW and factions that should be independent, how the hell did we forget India? The companies weren't commanded by their home nation, they were independent and just paid them tax.

    I also like the idea making a bigger campaign map. But CA must sell other total war games in the future, and if they create a game that covers all the world, they will not be able to sell other games that are about an specific part of the world. But what could be possible its to at least add little settlements all over the coast of africa and japan for commercial purposes.

    ? They can. They've sold 8 games set mostly in Europe out of 13 games, 2 of which are fantasy games. Making a large map doesn't limit future games unless they want to release a game covering that region at the same time period.

    Bigger limit is the practical. If you go for a large map do you spend more time making it detailed OR save time with less detail? Do you make more provinces OR do you make less provinces? Long standing problem CA claim is how short many games go, 200 turns to me seems rather short.
  • SmiffyHalloSmiffyHallo Posts: 1Registered Users
    edited March 23
    Hello! First post on the forums, so bear with me, as it were.

    Empire is my favorite of the Total War games, mainly because I can play as Sweden, but I play the other factions as well.
    So I would definitely buy ETW2 should it ever come out.
    Now onto the meat and potatoes of my post.
    Things I think needs to be implemented in a supposed ETW2:
    1. Steam Workshop Support, for all those delicious mods out there.
    2. More regions, as already stated by people more clever than I for all the right reasons.
    3. More provinces per region, again as stated by people more clever than I for all the right reasons.
    4. Actual colonies in the trade theaters, or whatever becomes the equivalent.
    5. Able to change government from Absolute to Constitutional Monarchy without a fricking revolution both ways.
    6. Historical Battles. This is something I miss every now and then from the original. I want to win the Battle of Poltava as Sweden damnit! -shakes fist at sky-
    7. Able to buy and sell provinces, as in the original.
    8. Visible Roads! This one ends up last on my list because it's entirely cosmetic, but I think it's needed, as proof that you're not just building up the provincial capital, but also the region as a whole. Still bitter roads aren't visible in Rome 2, what with romans being famous for being the actual builders of the first actual roads. But I digress. Also they were visible in the original, so there is that.
    And that's me done for the moment, might chime in with more ideas later...
    Post edited by SmiffyHallo on
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