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Bretonnia Update

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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,873
    edited April 2019
    Not hard really, go play a 100 games bret vs any of the 3 elf. The result will be dead set obvious its not as claimed.

    Pitiful to see every other factions thread gets completely hijacked by those ridiculous fanbois, not just brets, literally every other. Even frikking useless ungors r claimed to perform well vs elves
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  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,479
    yst said:

    Not hard really, go play a 100 games bret vs any of the 3 elf. The result will be dead set obvious its not as claimed.

    I know and is why they will never be able to offer proof.

    Because what they claim is false.

    But show me aerocrastic playing 10 games as HEs and getting pwnt by skilled bret players. It wont happen


    The builds will vary as will the wins.

    Better yet a 100 or 1000 games.

    But again they never will post any proof but spam their mantra "is broken"
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,873
    edited April 2019
    Easiest solutions is for all those frikking fanbois to play their elves vs bret. I can guarantee u they just gonna hide those win ones and whine about that couple failed ones.

    Go play a couple 10s or even 100s, so easy to see if they flung it on purpose or simply outclassed. Prolly going to chose a flat map with 0 terrain and let brets roam and then cry. Those welf will never show u those forest fights

    Biggest problem is they r the all time favs, clearly favoured for commercial reasons. U simply cant touch ur largest player base. We all know they r the most played factions since 2017, beginning at 16 with welf. As we will never know the true stats since its been concealed on purpose. Those 3 factions r absolute safe pick vs literally everything, bret included if map permits
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  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,616
    edited April 2019
    Sigh. Do you want me to arrange some Bretonnia vs High Elf games with Aero, or any other competitive player for that matter? @Tennisgolfboll
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  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,479

    Sigh. Do you want me to arrange some Bretonnia vs High Elf games with Aero, or any other competitive player for that matter? @Tennisgolfboll

    Absolutely.

    10 games HEs vs Bretonnia.

    If you win 10 out of 10 with bretonnia i will challenge the winner i will do better.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,157

    Well it hard to avoid talking about Elves, because if you're not fully on board with pure buffs for Bretonnia, you get accused of being 'elven fanboy'

    no we are not talking about pure buffs but about changes, but Brets not deserving any buffs like you claim is same as saying they need immense buffs.

    Blessed Treb / Alberic / BP/ Polearms need some buffs Blessed treb needs an actuall rework probably.

    KE needs +25 g or -4 CB, GK + 50 g

    Paladin - guardian removed, either vow system or more AL at increased price. 12 BvsL is not that impressive when they lose guardian.

    I said they are in good position. They need tweaks to help them in their troublesome matchups and reduce their performance in their one sided matchups.

    I'd say most of Bretonnian cav is too good in a vacuum, but like Dwarf infantry, they're slightly overtuned to make up other holes in the roster. If we were talking strictly unit stats/price, you could argue price increase for KotR, Questing Knights and Grail Knights. Of the lot, I'd say +50 on Grail Knights and +25 on KotR seem fair. I wouldn't touch questing knights as they're needed to deal with armoured stuff, as Bret has precious little source of AP

    Paladin is problematic, as single entities tend to be. I don't see why removal of guardian should be followed by a buff, as Guardian is a separate ability that you pay for. Too much anti large on a flying character invites goon squads.
    Naked Paladin is 475, that's Empire Captain (425) territory in price. He has a bit less MA (5) but get AL (12). A couple of points of AL more, like +3 shouldn't break him. But not sure it is needed. You'll pay less for him without guardian.

    I will play around with Trebuchets to see how they perform. I know I used to ignore them earlier because they couldn't hit a broad side of a barn, but after their last buff, I got punished by them several times. Yesterday I had 3 Blessed Trebuchets rout a crew of hellblaster volley gun in 2 volleys, and then rout Hammer of the witches crew in 3 volley. Hammer of the Witches managed to destroy 2 pieces from 1 unit during all that time.
    But I haven't played much will them, will try to test them, and use them more in battles.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,538
    ok woah we get it Bret have and edge in this **** MU, so what, have some bad Mus too, it's not big deal. This thread is just random rants about HE now.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,873

    Sigh. Do you want me to arrange some Bretonnia vs High Elf games with Aero, or any other competitive player for that matter? @Tennisgolfboll

    Oh for sure, go do that, each play both bret and elve, rotating vs each other. Also pick map like tomb of marbad, I wanna see how god tier their cav is. Start with welf first since they r proclaimed impossible.
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  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,479
    yst said:

    Sigh. Do you want me to arrange some Bretonnia vs High Elf games with Aero, or any other competitive player for that matter? @Tennisgolfboll

    Oh for sure, go do that, each play both bret and elve, rotating vs each other. Also pick map like tomb of marbad, I wanna see how god tier their cav is. Start with welf first since they r proclaimed impossible.
    Would be sweet with a stream. Mini tournament.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,616
    @Tennisgolfboll @yst I'm sure that something can be arranged.
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,107
    edited April 2019
    @Tennisgolfboll here your proof minute 1:07:



    now of course you'll tell me that Aerocrastic is a bad player, that the Bret player drafted perfectly into the Star Dragon, lucky noob etc.

    Also ain't nobody got time to play 10 matches especially always HE vs Bret it would be mind-numbingly boring. Make it Bo3 then you'll get stomped like @yst did a few months ago and you'll pretend nothing happened just like yst.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,538

    Well it hard to avoid talking about Elves, because if you're not fully on board with pure buffs for Bretonnia, you get accused of being 'elven fanboy'

    no we are not talking about pure buffs but about changes, but Brets not deserving any buffs like you claim is same as saying they need immense buffs.

    Blessed Treb / Alberic / BP/ Polearms need some buffs Blessed treb needs an actuall rework probably.

    KE needs +25 g or -4 CB, GK + 50 g

    Paladin - guardian removed, either vow system or more AL at increased price. 12 BvsL is not that impressive when they lose guardian.

    I said they are in good position. They need tweaks to help them in their troublesome matchups and reduce their performance in their one sided matchups.

    I'd say most of Bretonnian cav is too good in a vacuum, but like Dwarf infantry, they're slightly overtuned to make up other holes in the roster. If we were talking strictly unit stats/price, you could argue price increase for KotR, Questing Knights and Grail Knights. Of the lot, I'd say +50 on Grail Knights and +25 on KotR seem fair. I wouldn't touch questing knights as they're needed to deal with armoured stuff, as Bret has precious little source of AP

    Paladin is problematic, as single entities tend to be. I don't see why removal of guardian should be followed by a buff, as Guardian is a separate ability that you pay for. Too much anti large on a flying character invites goon squads.
    Naked Paladin is 475, that's Empire Captain (425) territory in price. He has a bit less MA (5) but get AL (12). A couple of points of AL more, like +3 shouldn't break him. But not sure it is needed. You'll pay less for him without guardian.

    I will play around with Trebuchets to see how they perform. I know I used to ignore them earlier because they couldn't hit a broad side of a barn, but after their last buff, I got punished by them several times. Yesterday I had 3 Blessed Trebuchets rout a crew of hellblaster volley gun in 2 volleys, and then rout Hammer of the witches crew in 3 volley. Hammer of the Witches managed to destroy 2 pieces from 1 unit during all that time.
    But I haven't played much will them, will try to test them, and use them more in battles.
    Paladin with cross guard is imo what makes him that good paired with anti large. Wihtout guardian Emp captain would be imho better, becasue Paladin will get only +7 MA agains SEM. While emp captainw ill have better MD, LD and an aura for the same price, so removing guardian from him would be a nerf even if you pay for it 150g.

    Or give them heroic killing blow instead of guardian. I reckon it would be a fair trade.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,107
    yes +40% WS totally fair trade would be very nice to have XD
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,357
    I think a lot of you guys need to calm down, especially tennis

    Samartian is right about the MU
    WE and HE are very much disfavoured against bret and often have to rely extreme builds to have a chance

    Though i think de is slightly favoured because of how many threats it can bring


    Trebs are freaking fine

    About paladin, if guardian is removed i rather see something else replace that slot, hold the line might be nice
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,357
    If the cavs like grail knight and knight errant get a nerf

    It would help HE for the former and WE for both

    If bret gets something like a grail paladin, alberic rework, that would help against like chaos norsca and other Monster heavy faction
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,479

    @Tennisgolfboll @yst I'm sure that something can be arranged.

    Sounds good!
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,048

    If the cavs like grail knight and knight errant get a nerf

    It would help HE for the former and WE for both

    If bret gets something like a grail paladin, alberic rework, that would help against like chaos norsca and other Monster heavy faction

    Not sure if I agree. Maybe KE are a bit too nuts for their cost. GK are important, and elves are the only factions that has been consistently shown to be unable to deal with them, and elves have a historic weakness against heavy cav units in general. They need more tools to deal with cav in general.

    Bret doesn't demand all SE's get nerfed due to the holes in their roster. If you are consistently shown to underperform against a certain class of unit you should ask for adjustments your factions roster.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,107
    edited April 2019
    Cukie251 said:

    If the cavs like grail knight and knight errant get a nerf

    It would help HE for the former and WE for both

    If bret gets something like a grail paladin, alberic rework, that would help against like chaos norsca and other Monster heavy faction

    Not sure if I agree. Maybe KE are a bit too nuts for their cost. GK are important, and elves are the only factions that has been consistently shown to be unable to deal with them, and elves have a historic weakness against heavy cav units in general. They need more tools to deal with cav in general.

    Bret doesn't demand all SE's get nerfed due to the holes in their roster. If you are consistently shown to underperform against a certain class of unit you should ask for adjustments your factions roster.
    there is no SEs except maybe Stegadons against which Bret currently struggles. 90 armor isn't exactly heavy armor there's plenty of counters to it including Grail Knights, mass Peasant Bowmen and Spearmen at arms. Stop pretending Bret is the same as 5 patches ago it got massive buffs in the meantime.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,048
    I raise you kholeck, Dragon Ogres, arachnarocks, half of the lizardmen roster, and every monster TK can field. Can probably think of others if I need to.

    90 armor is heavy armor. No ifs ands or buts about it. Its not at the total upper echelon but once you get past 60 - 70 low armor ap units really struggle to deal damage.

    As for your counters:
    Peasant bowmen: See armor.
    Spearman at arms: See armor.
    GK: Better. Usually don't trade super cost effectively into the bigger armored/anti large entities tho. They can get a good surround and do work if you have lord support though.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,107
    yes 90 armor is heavy armor but it's only 67% damage reduction so stuff like Grails still do 33% non-AP + the full AP component while Peasant Bowmen do 3 AP + 67% of non-AP.

    I mean no need to tell a whole story about it, test it yourself vs AI pick 4 archers 1 spearmen vs a Star Dragon from the AI let the AI land on the Spears and focus him with Peasant Bowmen you'll see how rapidly the HP goes down.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,458
    edited April 2019
    Green0 said:


    Oh **** god 🙈 do you even play the factions you talk about 😂 like really ??? we all know how this **** works m8, but it is not worth it in practice, look qt archaons item it give +4 LD and ITP, yey cost 179 gold...

    talk for yourself I picked Crown of Domination vs Vampires and in a close game it's actually invaluable. ItP is game-winning, too bad you're too bad a player to realize it.



    Could you stop for a second putting everyone on this forum against you ? Your behavior is honestly anoying as hell. When we say something you cannot refute you just ignore it and you don't have the balls to say that you are wrong. You idea of balance that a faction cannot be buffed because it is already good is utterly and completely stupid( sorry but I think you need strong words) balance discussion works with compromise yet you act like a child and refuse to make a change because... "I WANT THIS NERFED NOW !" Before anything else get buffed. What the balance community says is nerf one thing and then buff the other, but you act so comservative and you are against any changes. But ill stop this here as I already explained all of this, but you just ignore it and think that only your idea of balamce is good and everyone elses sucks...

    **** I miss the days where you weren't on those forums....

    Every single thread in balance is you arguing against everyone oh you sometimes get the support of Lotus

    are you alright bud? I was the one who explained why "Expendable" is a net buff and bothered giving arguments while @ElectorOfWurttemberg HASN'T EVEN BOTHERED to offer an explanation about why he considers it a nerd and you attack me? Your bias against me is laughable but nice try. The child is you. This whole post proves it that you attack me without even recognizing who's at fault.

    And yes buffing a good faction is stupid especially when everything needs to be buffed to Louen/Fey/Knights Errant/Grails level to compete with these choices. Too bad a terrible player like you doesn't realize this, maybe you should stop posting in balancing since you clearly have no clue, your posts are a disgrace.

    Want me to give you an analogy? Here you go: I think Alith Anar and Tyrion should be buffed to Alarielle levels because otherwise I'll never consider picking them over Alarielle. Oh wait, that's stupid. Just like some ideas of balancing in this thread.
    Haha 😂 he did explain why, if you actually played the faction you would have known. Again you put words in our mouth by saying we want everything in fey/grail level and you keep forgetting that I explicitly said nerf the too strong elements and buff the weaker ones.

    Attacking people on their skill level when you are not even close to it is funny, play some tournaments, get some wins, get yourself in a good clan, get in top ladder and stop showing a lack of overall understanding of this game and then you'll be able to critise. But atm you have not even close to the experience and knowledge I have or if you do go show it in tournaments then you will have credibility.

    Yes you afe right I don't like you, that is no secret, but I am faar from the only one because you put your nose in things you don't understand. And you make every single thread a huge debate between you and the majority of the forum.

    Glad that this item was usefull once for you, I once made a full slayer army work vs Empire( before there was goant slayers XD) does that mean its viable **** no.



  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,357
    edited April 2019
    As if i am going to ever bring Bret archers against He.....
    they will be dead against HE archers and almost everything HE has has missile resistance, silver shield, or Physical resistance
    at most i will bring is 1 pox arrow.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,873
    So much bs, now 90 armor is ineffective. Wdf lol and frikking slayer with 0 armor is seen as gods in survival.
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,107
    edited April 2019


    Glad that this item was usefull once for you, I once made a full slayer army work vs Empire( before there was goant slayers XD) does that mean its viable **** no.

    the difference is that if you decide to go with Archaon, his CoD helps Chosen be ItP and they wouldn't be otherwise. A pretty useful item when VC is full of terror routing units.

    Anyway Grail Reliquae is a useful item, if you don't see this you're a bad player or you play vs bad players and you never had a close game where Terror made you lose the game, there having Grail Reliquae is invaluable and it's worth every single gold piece especially paired with cheap infantry like Bret one. And clans and tournaments mean something but you shouldn't flex your muscles based on that especially flexing about being in a clan is something ridiculous but I'm not surprised since you seem very rude to whoever doesn't share your opinion in here and doesn't agree with your senseless buffs. It basically goes like this: someone disagrees with buffing Bretonnia, you think it's your right to flame them and call them noobs, not being in a clan, that everyone on the forums (!) disagrees with them, as if popular consensus is the metric with which we should balance the game. On top of that, you think your smiley faces make you look clever and funny in an overly zealous effort to ridicule the other side instead of giving arguments but it's quite the opposite.

    As if i am going to ever bring Bret archers against He.....
    they will be dead against HE archers and almost everything HE has has missile resistance, silver shield, or Physical resistance
    at most i will bring is 1 pox arrow.

    play as you want but less range doesn't translate automatically to renouncing to the ranged game. Empire for example brings ranged presence vs HE. WE, Coast, Dwarfs also do. The point of archers is to give you air superiority if it comes to a duel in something like say Louen vs a Star Dragon, you don't actually use them to trade, I thought you knew this. Or you can use them to punish even further a Star Dragon that has landed after surrounding it with a cavalry unit. It's very naive to say "HE archers have the advantage so I won't bring Bowmen" and you're missing out if you don't. Bret archers are very playable vs HE, sure HE have a slight advantage but going for archer duels shouldn't be your priority. You can also remedy to this with cavalry pressure since you're basically guaranteed to win the flanks and if it does come to an archer duel you take the heat off your 90 armor knights. Also, if it's Sisters of Avelorn, Bret bowmen trade pretty well into those.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,107
    yst said:

    Not hard really, go play a 100 games bret vs any of the 3 elf. The result will be dead set obvious its not as claimed.

    Pitiful to see every other factions thread gets completely hijacked by those ridiculous fanbois, not just brets, literally every other. Even frikking useless ungors r claimed to perform well vs elves

    we saw your brilliant results vs @Lotus_Moon out of the 3 Elves you didn't manage to win with one and the games were fairly 1-sided too so we can set the record of the 100 games already to 3-0 for Brets.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,458

    A lot of misinformed posts from people who appear to be going on outdated information.

    1) Bret absolutely has advantage vs HE

    2) DE is closer to 50/50

    3) Bret absolutely stomps Wood Elves

    4) Relique is absolutely worth it, +12 LD and ITP means an infantry blob will not rout to terror ever

    5) Paladins with guardian are OP, giving already hard to kill characters even more survivability, as well as each other.

    6) Bret cav is best in the game

    7) Bret infantry (bar Battle Pilgrims who are niche) is very cost effective

    8) Pegasi are usable, making heavy air armies viable, bringing another thing to account for

    9) Trebuchets are decent. They can hit static targets and are usable if you want to pull enemy to you.

    Bretonnia doesn't need buffs at this point, only minor tweaks, take here-give there.

    HE vs Brets is 50/50 just like vs DEs. Bret has a slight advantage vs WEs (very small)
    Sorry, but absolutely not. Bretonnia stomps Wood Elves, and outside maybe a one or two flukes, I've never seen WE player defeat Bret, presuming roughly equal skill level. That matchup broken on the level of VC vs Chaos matchup. You have to get extremely lucky or play against much less skilled opponent.
    Cukie251 said:

    OrkLads said:

    Cukie251 said:

    I mean, just looking at it from a cost perspective. A Grail Reique provides what? 11 leadership and immunity to psyc for usually 2 units, circumstantially 3. 2x men at arms shields (the most likely unit it will be used on) are going to be costing 650, the Grail relique nearly doubles the price to 1150. It is a very expensive pick.

    Why would anyone be using a Grail Reliquae on Men @ arms shields? What do they hope to gain? May as well use it on Peasant mobs and then say it's a bad unit because 2 peasant mobs = $200, + $500 for Grail Reliquae more than triples the cost to $700.

    The better the damage output of the infantry you are bringing, the better value you get from the Grail Reliquae. I agree that if you are going for a quantity strategy you might not want to bring it and just load up on Cav. But Bretonnia definitely have the option against certain factions of going infantry/range heavy w/ a couple units of cav as support and in this builds the Grail Reliquae is invaluable.

    The Grail Reliquae provides +12LD & ITP. This does the following:

    1. Makes a Men at Arms Polearm perform like a Halberdier (same leadership + ITP, however doesn't have Charge defence against all)
    2. Pushes Peasant Bowmen leadership up to Crossbowmen levels which helps them trade even more effectively in a range duel.
    3. Give Foot Squires the same Leadership as Har Ganeth Executioners + gives ITP on top of that.
    4. The aura (55m) comfortably hits 2 units (i.e. you can have them properly spaced) and is also able to hit peasant bowmen behind them.

    Watch this battle to see how good Bret infantry can be (relatively speaking) and how effective the Grail Reliquae can be.

    Alright, lets use you examples.

    2 Bret Halbs + Grail Reliq = 1550
    2 Emp Halbs = 1330

    Emp halbs have an edge of:
    630 health
    2 leadership (accounting for relique buff)
    4 MA
    2 MD
    3 WS
    2 CB
    CD All

    So that 220 gold and the stat premium goes to.... ItP? You are paying more and getting less.

    Footsquires have the same story. Compared to empire GS (an already meh unit)
    2 FS + Grail Reliq = 1850
    2 GS = 1800
    Greatswords get:
    630 Health
    25 armor
    -8 ld (wahoo!)
    +7 MA
    +10 MD
    -3 ws
    -4 CB

    That one looks a bit better. But still, you are paying more, for a net decrease in stats. Infact, FS are the ONLY unit in the entire bret army they make sense to bring it with, and even then: your units are still weaker. It also takes out the primary advantage bret infantry has, cost.

    also, I'd much rather have an extra Xbow than a grail relique.

    Look, I'm okay that bret has to rely on a trinket to make its infantry stick around. I get that they are a cav faction and need to make concessions. But can we at least come to terms with the fact that it isnt actually a very good buff for its cost.
    1) Greatswords are not a 'meh' unit. They're a very good unit.

    2) the importance of relique is that gives your infantry holding power, and you need your infantry to hold so your cavalry can do the killing. It is not a staple unit, but it is quite good now, and brought often at higher levels and is especially important vs SEM. 2 extra spearmen is not 10000 HP when Kholek will terror rout them after 20 seconds.
    It also synergises well with Fay mortis. In blob, Fay is safe and can long term drain enemy units.

    A lot of misinformed posts from people who appear to be going on outdated information.

    1) Bret absolutely has advantage vs HE

    2) DE is closer to 50/50

    3) Bret absolutely stomps Wood Elves

    4) Relique is absolutely worth it, +12 LD and ITP means an infantry blob will not rout to terror ever

    5) Paladins with guardian are OP, giving already hard to kill characters even more survivability, as well as each other.

    6) Bret cav is best in the game

    7) Bret infantry (bar Battle Pilgrims who are niche) is very cost effective

    8) Pegasi are usable, making heavy air armies viable, bringing another thing to account for

    9) Trebuchets are decent. They can hit static targets and are usable if you want to pull enemy to you.

    Bretonnia doesn't need buffs at this point, only minor tweaks, take here-give there.

    9) Blessed Trebs are not decent, they are garbage that need a rewoork. you pay 200 g more for nothing

    5) i don't have anything against Paladins losing guardian, but they need more AL and increase in cost to not be medicore again.
    Field Trebs projectiles have 40 regular/145 AP. Blessed Trebs have 70 regular/270 AP.

    They also have magic damage and 25 ammo, compared to 22 for regular.

    So, it is most certainly not nothing.

    Now, most of the time you're going to be using them to get enemy to advance, so you do not need the extra cost but there is a noticeable difference
    Sorry but yes HEs and DEs have even chances against Bretonnia. Take of your elf glasses and see the truth. WEs are not as outmatched as you claim either.
    Unfortunately, not even close. DE do have dependable AP/AL cavalry so they can compete.

    High Elves are outclased in cavalry department, and once their mobile element is gone, it is hard even for Phoenix Guard to resist for long while being surrounded. But at least High Elves do have units like Phoenix Guard.

    Wood Elves literally have no chance against competent Bretonnia player. Speardancers have no mass, no armour and few HP. One unbraced charge brings them below 50% health. Eternal Guard fare even worse. I tried overinvesting in cavalry, buffing/debuffing and healing at the same time. Glade Lord on Dragon with helm of discord and Sisters of Thorn dropping debuff on Grails and healing them simply is not enough.

    At the same time, Bretonnian Bowmen will devastate WE infantry and archers. Treekin can't stop cavalry either and they're slow. So whatever you do, Bret can counter it for less investment.

    And please don't use terms like 'elf glasses'. Let's leave the implication that I'm biased aside - it is silly for different reasons.

    There are 3 very different factions of Elves, with different playstyle, different strengths and weaknesses and different playerbase.
    It is as silly as it would be someone saying 'why are you complaining about Trebuchets, human factions have excellent artillery, look at Empire cannons'.

    And tomorrow we will probably get another faction of Dwarfs with totally different playstyle to current Dwarfs, we will get more Human factions (Kislev, Tilea, Estalia...), all with different playstyles.

    While I agree that Bretonnia has a good matchup vs all the elves ( not really DE, thats pretty even imo).

    Wood elves do strugle against them, but with glady, her net is really good with archer focus, then most of WE infsntry has Anti-large( not all I mean they access to easy AP-AL). That does help, its a tricky matchup, treekin can be decent honestly they will massacre the bretonnian frontline and give enough mass to block cav charges. Its a bad matchup, Equal to Bret vs LM imo, its tough, but you have some things you can use pretty well. Maybe 35/65 or 40/60.

    HE I truly think is a close matchup, bret is favored, but honestly not that much if you build well. If you try to fight the cav Game with bretonnia you will loose, by design GK just have a good matchup, with magic damage, anti-large and costing more, meaning trying yo win this is a waste.

    Sisters of averlorn are actually pretty good and a redeming factor for the HE, if you bring a dragon or net actually anything to slow the GK, the magic damage of the sisters will be extremely effitient and will bypass the 20% physicall resist of the GK, they also have a reslly good range, denying the bret map control( for the range as when they get in they get rained by magic arrow). 2 sisters is actually a really good pick. 1 or 2 volley of SoA will rout peasant bowmen, so you can get them before they get in range.

    I like to bring ellyrian reavers in this matchup, they are not gonna beat bret cav, but they can tie them down so sisters get some good flanking volleys or if the enemy goes for you missiles you can get a rear charge and get your missiles out.

    Bring a lot of spearmen, they will hold really long against bretonnian infantry, though they wont beat squires, you missiles/ dragon can do the job.

    The main mistake HE player do in this one is trying to fight bret cav with theirs, its not gonna work, sisters are a good counter to every valuable bret unit. The main problem is as always defending them and target prioritisation.

    I often play this matchup against top tier players and clan members and its honestly pretty close. (45-55) imo.

    This is what I gathered from personal experience, but its a fun matchup imo, both decently high skill faction to master).


  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,107
    lol you bring a Dragon and 2x Sisters and Nets and then how small is the remaining HE army?

    Sisters are a counter to SEs mostly, they don't kill cavalry fast enough. If Sisters were good at countering cav, Waywatchers would be even better and WE-Bret would be WE-sided, instead it's not, it's very Bret sided by your own admission. So there we go, an inconsistency in your argument.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,538
    Green0 said:

    yes +40% WS totally fair trade would be very nice to have XD

    yeah a fair trade, becasue removing of guardian would be a too heavy nerf for them. Without it they would be again a medicore hero.

    And it would help against heavy monster builds, like arachnarok qeen etc, that cna currently abuse Brets.

    but you are so heavy biased, it's kinda pointless to argue.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,873
    Green0 said:

    we saw your brilliant results vs @Lotus_Moon out of the 3 Elves you didn't manage to win with one and the games were fairly 1-sided too so we can set the record of the 100 games already to 3-0 for Brets.

    Why not, it was specifically chosen to showcase the full potential bret can do. Nothing special about that lol. Come play full forest map, see those full cav kite army do absolutely nothing.

    Better yet, have him play elf vs brets. He can even fake flung it or we can easily tell the whole fanboism is fake af.

    They can whine and cry as much as they want, CA got solid win rates on those factions. Question is, do they have the balls to ask
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  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,048
    Green0 said:


    Glad that this item was usefull once for you, I once made a full slayer army work vs Empire( before there was goant slayers XD) does that mean its viable **** no.

    Anyway Grail Reliquae is a useful item, if you don't see this you're a bad player or you play vs bad players and you never had a close game where Terror made you lose the game, there having Grail Reliquae is invaluable and it's worth every single gold piece especially paired with cheap infantry like Bret one.
    Thats... pretty dodgy logic. Sure, there are games where I've won due to Loun's beloved son of Bretonnia buff or thorgrim's frenzy. That doesnt mean either of them are worth the cost though. With a relique you are paying 500 for 2 units to get +12 ld and ITP. - 250 per unit.

    250 is almost enough to upgrade to an entirely different tier of units, who will not only have higher stats, but also better LD, passives, etc. A group of units who will need ITP less because they will actually win combat.

    Putting a gun to a players head and demanding they take the grail relique isn't the same as it being a good unit. Sure it has usefulness in an army where leadership values are legendarily low, but that doesn't mean its an inherently good unit. Lets not pretend its an effective alternative to, say, having infantry with decent base stats.
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