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Rework/fix Skink Jav please?

ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,721
edited April 2019 in Balancing Discussions
Dear CA,

Any chance of reworking skink jav properly? right now they r one crazy outlier. They r a melee thats been wrongfully classified as missile. No missile unit has such low ammo count with just 3. They r basically miners with charges, which r by right a melee. Im not sure whats the design behind this unit. So

- Move them to melee where they rightfully belongs as with miners blasting.

Or

- Make them a REAL missile unit if they r to be categorised that way.
-25% unit size on par with skirmishers
-2 att -6 def or -3 att -8 def
-5 ld
14 ammo if stats r better. 16 if stats r weaker.

They r like a sore nail that stands out and really in need of hammering. Either they r missile or melee where they rightfully are. Right now they r in a really weird category.


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Post edited by yst on
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Comments

  • ExarchExarch Registered Users Posts: 588
    They can be pretty lethal in large numbers in the GS match up at least, and they do good damage per volley, so I think there is some danager of these being spammed in an all-missile army.

    Maybe take their ammo down to 2 if you class them as melee (with -25g to compensate?).
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,049
    It shouldn't be a problem unless you want to spam 10 other missile units. And if you're trying to do that, it's best if they stay classified as missile.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,721
    Yea they can be good without a doubt, I mean miners with blastings good also and both r of same price at $400.

    Its not about their fighting capability. Its just so weird why they r missile where they shouldnt. Totally fine if CA wants them to be missile, just make them a real missile not one with 3 ammo
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  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,448
    Exarch said:

    They can be pretty lethal in large numbers in the GS match up at least, and they do good damage per volley, so I think there is some danager of these being spammed in an all-missile army.

    Maybe take their ammo down to 2 if you class them as melee (with -25g to compensate?).

    Not more than any other archer unit

    Its a low range missile unit


  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,044
    Just change their names to skink cohort (Javelin). Make them a melee unit, because by that logic miners charges are also a ranged unit, and be done with it.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,448
    Green0 said:

    I bet you would like that eh, to spam your chameleon draw kiting armies.

    A unit with 120 models and so high missile damage per model is rightfully classified as missile even thiugh the total ammo is low. Unless you wanna go full chameleon spam I really struggle to see what build is the missile unit classification restricting.

    It just doesn't really make sense. In his suggestion there is nothing hinting that he wants this to do spamm armies, he even suggested to make them a real missule unit so no limit here. Its just weird that a unit who will pass most of the game in melee is classified as missiles


  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,721
    edited April 2019
    Cukie251 said:

    Just change their names to skink cohort (Javelin). Make them a melee unit, because by that logic miners charges are also a ranged unit, and be done with it.

    Pretty much thats what I been trying to communicate the message out, u dont see stalkers with 3 gazes going into missile category with ush bow

    Nosca have one hella jav, Such a wonderful unit until the nerf it big time. Still its a very viable unit, 12 ammo with 40 dmg each vs large. Totally can see them being cavemen hunting mammoth with that one.

    Without any official response I just dont know whether its a bug they didnt fix, something like gobbo shaman not having encourage for 3 yrs things like that. I mean they done a lot of good work to the game, maybe this is one of it thats missing a minor fix.
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,962
    edited April 2019

    Green0 said:

    I bet you would like that eh, to spam your chameleon draw kiting armies.

    A unit with 120 models and so high missile damage per model is rightfully classified as missile even thiugh the total ammo is low. Unless you wanna go full chameleon spam I really struggle to see what build is the missile unit classification restricting.

    It just doesn't really make sense. In his suggestion there is nothing hinting that he wants this to do spamm armies, he even suggested to make them a real missule unit so no limit here. Its just weird that a unit who will pass most of the game in melee is classified as missiles
    yes except their cost would need to go up then because currently they're most definitely worth 400g.

    tl;dr: keep them as they are they're a good unit and perfectly fine, I use them very often and I like their design.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,665
    A reclassification seems obvious and always has.

    As to making them a "real" missile unit with 8-12 ammo... I'd probably be in support of this. Increase their cost or decrease their stats, whatever. I'd like something to bridge the gap between all normal skinks 300-400, from saurus, 750-800 in terms of cost.

    Seems like we'll be getting some red crested skinks in that catagory soon, but that doesn't do anything for ranged as they are pure melee.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,721
    Kayosiv said:

    A reclassification seems obvious and always has.

    As to making them a "real" missile unit with 8-12 ammo... I'd probably be in support of this. Increase their cost or decrease their stats, whatever. I'd like something to bridge the gap between all normal skinks 300-400, from saurus, 750-800 in terms of cost.

    Seems like we'll be getting some red crested skinks in that catagory soon, but that doesn't do anything for ranged as they are pure melee.

    Thats fine really, u see dwf with miners and they got 10 infantry units to select from, and thats excluding rors. Liz got 6, only 4 if u take away the unshielded one.

    Mara jav r 12 ammo with 15 anti large, so that 40 dmg per jav. And they r hella strong in melee too. 26 att, 28 str with 7 ap. Skink jav proper missile gonna need to be beyond 14-16 ammo to be on par. Mara javs only $500. 7.2s reload too, skinks at 9s
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,962
    Kayosiv said:

    A reclassification seems obvious and always has.

    As to making them a "real" missile unit with 8-12 ammo... I'd probably be in support of this. Increase their cost or decrease their stats, whatever. I'd like something to bridge the gap between all normal skinks 300-400, from saurus, 750-800 in terms of cost.

    Seems like we'll be getting some red crested skinks in that catagory soon, but that doesn't do anything for ranged as they are pure melee.

    why? They work perfectly fine as either high DPS unit to protect your backline from, say, a diving Dragon or as a frontline unit to melt something like Flagellants, unshielded Spearmen. They even do alright damage to Phoenix Guard.

    Don't run a good unit to a worse, watered down unit of something htat is working.
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,665
    Lizardmen don't work perfectly fine. They have huge gaps in their roster because of their limited infantry options, both in range and melee.

    Presumably the only reason the javelin skinks are in the ranged category is because CA was embarrassed there were only 2 units in there otherwise.

    Maybe that's wrong though. Maybe they once has 8 ammo and were super OP at any cost because they have 120 models. Maybe they overshadowed the "real ranged" units? Who knows.

    It still seems weird considering Norscan javelin units function fine, are in the ranged catagory, and don't need to be handicapped at sub 5 ammo.
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,962
    edited April 2019
    Kayosiv said:

    Lizardmen don't work perfectly fine. They have huge gaps in their roster because of their limited infantry options, both in range and melee.

    Presumably the only reason the javelin skinks are in the ranged category is because CA was embarrassed there were only 2 units in there otherwise.

    Maybe that's wrong though. Maybe they once has 8 ammo and were super OP at any cost because they have 120 models. Maybe they overshadowed the "real ranged" units? Who knows.

    It still seems weird considering Norscan javelin units function fine, are in the ranged catagory, and don't need to be handicapped at sub 5 ammo.

    so what, LZ roster has a few gaps but they're getting a DLC which will hopefully make them jump a tier, them being a bit weak in terms of foot missiles is by design it's like saying oh poor High Elves they have no anti-infantry chaff killer or poor Empire they have no elite infantry oh poor DE they have no high range non-AP cheap missile unit. Skink Javelins are a good unit, don't touch them, don't water them down. They are a high burst unit able to delete either half HP from an enemy chaff infantry without shields or melt a monster with focus fire. I don't care about the classification and I can see why with such high ranged DPS potential CA chose to classify them as missiles so that you wouldn't see armies of 10 of these guys and 6 chameleons on top of that and the rest carnos for AP/AL which is what yst would like to play and abuse.

    Don't touch Javelins please I like them a lot and I think they're very unique in terms of how they play, high burst ranged DPS and then good melee for the cost, no other unit in the game has that.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,448
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    I bet you would like that eh, to spam your chameleon draw kiting armies.

    A unit with 120 models and so high missile damage per model is rightfully classified as missile even thiugh the total ammo is low. Unless you wanna go full chameleon spam I really struggle to see what build is the missile unit classification restricting.

    It just doesn't really make sense. In his suggestion there is nothing hinting that he wants this to do spamm armies, he even suggested to make them a real missule unit so no limit here. Its just weird that a unit who will pass most of the game in melee is classified as missiles
    yes except their cost would need to go up then because currently they're most definitely worth 400g.

    tl;dr: keep them as they are they're a good unit and perfectly fine, I use them very often and I like their design.
    ? Stats debuff for more ammo, just like normal archers


  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,044
    They arn't a dedicated missile unit. They never have been. They shouldn't be classified as one.

    Likewise they don't need to be reworked and function perfectly fine, so no need to change any stats.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,448
    Green0 said:

    Kayosiv said:

    Lizardmen don't work perfectly fine. They have huge gaps in their roster because of their limited infantry options, both in range and melee.

    Presumably the only reason the javelin skinks are in the ranged category is because CA was embarrassed there were only 2 units in there otherwise.

    Maybe that's wrong though. Maybe they once has 8 ammo and were super OP at any cost because they have 120 models. Maybe they overshadowed the "real ranged" units? Who knows.

    It still seems weird considering Norscan javelin units function fine, are in the ranged catagory, and don't need to be handicapped at sub 5 ammo.

    so what, LZ roster has a few gaps but they're getting a DLC which will hopefully make them jump a tier, them being a bit weak in terms of foot missiles is by design it's like saying oh poor High Elves they have no anti-infantry chaff killer or poor Empire they have no elite infantry oh poor DE they have no high range non-AP cheap missile unit. Skink Javelins are a good unit, don't touch them, don't water them down. They are a high burst unit able to delete either half HP from an enemy chaff infantry without shields or melt a monster with focus fire. I don't care about the classification and I can see why with such high ranged DPS potential CA chose to classify them as missiles so that you wouldn't see armies of 10 of these guys and 6 chameleons on top of that and the rest carnos for AP/AL which is what yst would like to play and abuse.

    Don't touch Javelins please I like them a lot and I think they're very unique in terms of how they play, high burst ranged DPS and then good melee for the cost, no other unit in the game has that.
    pls do not make this a huge debate on LM ability to use missiles, balance faction design etc... its no more than a unit category change as this unit makes no sense to be placed there, thats it.


  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,962
    edited April 2019

    Green0 said:

    Kayosiv said:

    Lizardmen don't work perfectly fine. They have huge gaps in their roster because of their limited infantry options, both in range and melee.

    Presumably the only reason the javelin skinks are in the ranged category is because CA was embarrassed there were only 2 units in there otherwise.

    Maybe that's wrong though. Maybe they once has 8 ammo and were super OP at any cost because they have 120 models. Maybe they overshadowed the "real ranged" units? Who knows.

    It still seems weird considering Norscan javelin units function fine, are in the ranged catagory, and don't need to be handicapped at sub 5 ammo.

    so what, LZ roster has a few gaps but they're getting a DLC which will hopefully make them jump a tier, them being a bit weak in terms of foot missiles is by design it's like saying oh poor High Elves they have no anti-infantry chaff killer or poor Empire they have no elite infantry oh poor DE they have no high range non-AP cheap missile unit. Skink Javelins are a good unit, don't touch them, don't water them down. They are a high burst unit able to delete either half HP from an enemy chaff infantry without shields or melt a monster with focus fire. I don't care about the classification and I can see why with such high ranged DPS potential CA chose to classify them as missiles so that you wouldn't see armies of 10 of these guys and 6 chameleons on top of that and the rest carnos for AP/AL which is what yst would like to play and abuse.

    Don't touch Javelins please I like them a lot and I think they're very unique in terms of how they play, high burst ranged DPS and then good melee for the cost, no other unit in the game has that.
    pls do not make this a huge debate on LM ability to use missiles, balance faction design etc... its no more than a unit category change as this unit makes no sense to be placed there, thats it.
    it really does though, like I said they're a bursty missile unit and should be classified as such. I don't think armies such as 6x these guys, 6 chameleons, a few salamanders and 1-2 carnos should be a thing or even viable, I don't see why we want the possibility to build such armies while we restrict missiles of all other factions to max 9.

    Their damage output btw is 16x120x3 = 5760, all unleashed in a matter of a few seconds compared to something like HE archers that although have 30000 total damage take much longer to unleash that damage (1292 damage every 10s). So yes it makes sense to keep them under missile infantry since they do shoot missiles. I don't want to see the chameleon/carno spam come back in another form and I don't see how classifying this unit as melee infantry would enable such new amazing builds that are currently curtailed by this 'unjust' classification.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,044
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    Kayosiv said:

    Lizardmen don't work perfectly fine. They have huge gaps in their roster because of their limited infantry options, both in range and melee.

    Presumably the only reason the javelin skinks are in the ranged category is because CA was embarrassed there were only 2 units in there otherwise.

    Maybe that's wrong though. Maybe they once has 8 ammo and were super OP at any cost because they have 120 models. Maybe they overshadowed the "real ranged" units? Who knows.

    It still seems weird considering Norscan javelin units function fine, are in the ranged catagory, and don't need to be handicapped at sub 5 ammo.

    so what, LZ roster has a few gaps but they're getting a DLC which will hopefully make them jump a tier, them being a bit weak in terms of foot missiles is by design it's like saying oh poor High Elves they have no anti-infantry chaff killer or poor Empire they have no elite infantry oh poor DE they have no high range non-AP cheap missile unit. Skink Javelins are a good unit, don't touch them, don't water them down. They are a high burst unit able to delete either half HP from an enemy chaff infantry without shields or melt a monster with focus fire. I don't care about the classification and I can see why with such high ranged DPS potential CA chose to classify them as missiles so that you wouldn't see armies of 10 of these guys and 6 chameleons on top of that and the rest carnos for AP/AL which is what yst would like to play and abuse.

    Don't touch Javelins please I like them a lot and I think they're very unique in terms of how they play, high burst ranged DPS and then good melee for the cost, no other unit in the game has that.
    pls do not make this a huge debate on LM ability to use missiles, balance faction design etc... its no more than a unit category change as this unit makes no sense to be placed there, thats it.
    it really does though, like I said they're a bursty missile unit and should be classified as such. I don't think armies such as 6x these guys, 6 chameleons, a few salamanders and 1-2 carnos should be a thing or even viable, I don't see why we want the possibility to build such armies while we restrict missiles of all other factions to max 9.

    Their damage output btw is 16x120x3 = 5760, all unleashed in a matter of a few seconds compared to something like HE archers that although have 30000 total damage take much longer to unleash that damage (1292 damage every 10s). So yes it makes sense to keep them under missile infantry since they do shoot missiles. I don't want to see the chameleon/carno spam come back in another form and I don't see how classifying this unit as melee infantry would enable such new amazing builds that are currently curtailed by this 'unjust' classification.
    You literally just agreed that they have a 5th of the damage of a generic archer unit. They also have no range. Minimal ammo, and the stats of a melee infantry. Have you ever played rome? Are hestati/legionares consisted a missile unit? No. Are miners with BC a missile unit? No. (and they can cause way more collateral damage than these guys). There is literally no reason to classify them as one except your unfounded fear that someone might opt to use a line of these guys rather than generic skins.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,962
    my fear of people spamming missile armies with carnos is not unfounded. Maybe your memory is short, but there was a time when there was a fairly toxic LZ build on ladder that relied on skink + carno spam and healing. The only way to defeat this list would be bring a counter army of archers that did badly vs basically any other army the LZ player could bring.

    Miner BC are different because Dwarfs don’t heal, don’t kite and don’t have Carnos.

    And I agreed that they have 1/5 the damage of HE archers but also cheaper, have melee stats and most importantly can unleash this ranged damage in an incredibly short amount of time which is what makes them excellent backline protectors vs stuff like Dragons/Giants.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,721

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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,519
    edited April 2019
    Has no impact on the game what so ever.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,721

    Has no impact on the game what so ever.

    Perfect lol, thats an immediate fix. No reason what so ever to NOT fix a wrongly categorized unit
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  • Cukie251Cukie251 Registered Users Posts: 1,044
    But Skink cohort don't function like that. They are primarily melee units. They don't have the ammo to kite, they do the vast majority of their damage in melee, and they don't have 360 shooting. Ontop of that, they pay a pretty substantial premium for that ability.

    I get the cham skink thing because they are poison 360 shooters. But bringing 6x skink cohort is essentially bringing a frontline, which at least partially defeats the purpose of an all skirmish build.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,519
    yst said:

    Has no impact on the game what so ever.

    Perfect lol, thats an immediate fix. No reason what so ever to NOT fix a wrongly categorized unit
    No reason to fix it either, i hope it stays like this just so it keeps triggering you :open_mouth: I guess it does impact your draw kitting skirmish army but still its just funny to see you make this topic every few months.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,721
    edited April 2019

    No reason to fix it either, i hope it stays like this just so it keeps triggering you :open_mouth: I guess it does impact your draw kitting skirmish army but still its just funny to see you make this topic every few months.

    Oh I will keep making it until balance gets balanced. Its clearly an issue which they can either fix or leave it broken. Absolutely no reason why they r missile.
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  • PrussianWarfarePrussianWarfare Registered Users Posts: 13
    @yst



    I asked this a while back in the discord I am in and this was the answer I got in regards to the classification.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 20,154
    Personal comment and off topic post comments removed. Stay on topic folks, and stop lobbing the ipersonal insult grenades.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,721

    @yst



    I asked this a while back in the discord I am in and this was the answer I got in regards to the classification.

    Thats super dissapointing and a very, very weird justification. Doesn’t really answer the question

    Why do mara jav have 12 ammo when skink jav have 3? Both can skirmish. Skink jav is a full skink cohort themselves, for all purposes intended. Once ammo expended u be seeing a full skink cohort on skirmish, that’s seriously awkward.

    Weirdest missile justification ever. Doesnt ALL missile skirmish....... any missile that doesnt skirmish is bugged.

    Anyway thats fine then. If skink jav r officially missile and NOT a misclassification. Then we have a base to work on, as to why mara jav r so much better
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  • y4g3ry4g3r Registered Users Posts: 207
    edited April 2019
    You just said "can't all missiles skirmish". No. Dwarf miners with bc can't, that's why they aren't under missile infantry.
    Skink infanty are fast enough to avoid direct melee with infantry until they have used all their javelins. Hence they can skirmish.

    Post edited by dge1 on
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,721
    edited April 2019
    y4g3r said:

    You just said "can't all missiles skirmish". No. Dwarf miners with bc can't, that's why they aren't under missile infantry.
    Skink infanty are fast enough to avoid direct melee with infantry until they have used all their javelins. Hence they can skirmish.

    Dwf miners ARE NOT missile.

    Crazily awkward to see an entire skink cohort unit goes on skirmishing because their 3 javs been used up. Just because they skirmish do not in anyway justify 3 ammo. It justify them being missile sure, the question is not being answered.



    The stats DONT add up for a missile. They have hp, size, shield no problem. Why is a MISSILE units dmg output entirely overshadowed by melee capability?

    Have u even seen the fighting capability of mara jav AND their MISSILE DAMAGE potential. Thats missile. Rangers great wep, mara axe throwers, those r all fighters with VERY HIGH thrown AP with A LOT of ammo of 8. Javs 3
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