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Hot-fix/Patch suggestion (long)

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  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,958Registered Users
    Markrox said:

    "Dark Riders * +1MA/MD, +1ap damage."

    Giving these the same damage as HE Reavers while costing 100 less is too much. Reavers are 22% more expensive. For additional comparison, look at Mounted Yeomen. They have have 4 more damage (18% more total Weapon Strength and 50% more AP) than Mounted Yeomen and cost 50 gold more, and that's before you consider other stats. If these were buffed their price would have to go up.

    "Grail Knights * +100g"

    6.6% price increase for...? Requires context.

    "Council Guard * +100g"

    Considering Stormvermin Halberds are already on the lower end of the infantry spectrum, and that Guardian on a unit with 34 speed isn't ideal, especially when so much of the damage Skaven lords usually take comes from fireball or spirit leech, this is a hard sell. 7.7% cost increase, again needs context.

    Nehekhara Horsemen * +100g

    These are basically Black Knights with lower armour and less health. 15.4% price increase is huge, and would make them more expensive than BK's while having lower stats and not having access to nehek. No to this.

    Mournguls * +100g

    These already lose to Treekin, widely referred to as one of the most useless units in the game. 10% price increase after several nerfs is too much.

    Star of Avelorn * Another -10% healing

    AoE Healing generally is too good, and encourages blobbing. Make this a strong single target heal and move on, it still will make Noble chariots/ Fireborn invulnerable, just stop being a blob tool. I'm not disagreeing with your idea, but why not fix it properly.

    The problem with suggesting 100 changes is that people will nitpick the ones that don't make sense, and not really discuss the good ones. But it's impossible to post in agreement when there's so many suggestions that don't make sense.
    The reason I posted these notes were good but a little ruined by bias was exactly that, there's several unit's here that are receiving very noticeable changes that I know you personally dislike because you're such a vocal person when it comes to balance.

    Dark Riders - Mounted yomen i suggested a price reduction of 25g for, reavers just got -50g, this would make DE a more competitive choice, i feel DR have been quite weak for a while now, just DE in general were quite good so there was no need to buff them, now that DE are balanced they can be looked at.

    Grail Knights - GK Have been undercosted/overbuffed for a very long time now, they got away with it because other aspects of the roster were not up to par namely no other meaningful way of dealing with large units, now that peg knights are viable and +12 extra anti large on Paladin theres no need for Grails to stay in the stay they are in, its either +100g or remove perfect vigour.

    Council Guard - 34 speed guardian is perfect if majority of your characters can only be fielded on foot in addition its synergy with unbreakable is just silly, i think no unit should have two of the most perfect abilities for the roster on 1 unit.

    Nehekara Horsmen - have been too strong for a very long time, remember they also benefit from realm of souls, perhaps +100g is no the way to go about nerfing them, but they are in need of a nerf, i will look more into them and the comparison you provided.

    Mournguls - got away with a tinny nerf, should have been a much bigger nerf, while they might lose to treekin they also get stalk and vanguard which treekin do not and anti infantry + hunger and terror, if you test both vs infantry its not even close how much faster they kill things.

    Star of Avelorn - here i don't disagree i think the star needs a big nerf and as much as i would like a rework of it i think theres no chance this will happen, i think it actually needs -20% duration nerf not just -10% if rework is not possible, but since CA nerfed it by just 10% last patch i'm hoping they will agree to at least another 10% nerf to try get it balanced eventually, but yes if rework was possible i would be very much up for it.

    You might not agree with what i wrote above i can respect that, just i'm providing the reasoning behind why i wrote what i wrote for those units.
  • Smitty404Smitty404 Posts: 302Registered Users
    edited April 20
    @Lotus_Moon

    I agree with most of your changes, but the Dwarfs need much more than a reduction in cost for their LL. I can't believe you can look at their faction and say the only thing they need is -100 gold for their LL lol.

    First of all the Rune Lord should get -100 taking him back to where he was before CA started to increase his cost. The RuneLord is not OP! He is just the best of the poor Dwarf LL. With RuneLords you only bring the Rune of Wrath and Ruin. That's all he contributes. I would decrease RL by 100 and other LL by 250. Even then I would still bring the RL most of the time.

    AP Dwarf infantry (LBGW, DWGW, Miners) need + 2MA. Dwarf AP infantry woefully underperforms especially since non armoured factions like Skaven now have armored options and there is so much AP in the game now.

    Broken Units that need to be completely reworked:
    Thane: Massive cost reduction needed plus better buffs.
    Master Engineer: Master cost reduction needed plus better buffs.
    Gyrobomber/Skyhammer: Big cost reduction. Give the skyhammer vangaurd plus stalk.
    Giant Slayers: Make this a 12 dwarf unit and make each unit very tough with ward saves.
    Grumbling Guard: This unit needs something better than just replenishing vigor.
    Peak Gate Guard: Far too expensive.

    Units that need a buff:
    Gyrocoptor/Brimstone Gun variant need to be much more survivable. Increase their MD and health plus give more ammo.
    Ironbreakers need to have a silver shield.

  • Smitty404Smitty404 Posts: 302Registered Users
    Jezzails need to lose their shield and their armour should be reduced to 20.
  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    What about an weapons option for the Empire captain like a pistol?
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,411Registered Users
    Smitty404 said:

    Jezzails need to lose their shield and their armour should be reduced to 20.

    Humm wtf ? Ok one thing we need to make clear on those forums is that removing a trait/ ability on a unit never happens I can't recall when CA did so, they nerf it, but traits and abilifies are what makes a unit unique. With 2900 HP their armor and shield is the only thing that protects them from damage, your suggestion is ridiculous.

    Oh and how could you remove the shield when its on the **** model...


  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,958Registered Users
    edited April 20
    Smitty404 said:

    @Lotus_Moon

    I agree with most of your changes, but the Dwarfs need much more than a reduction in cost for their LL. I can't believe you can look at their faction and say the only thing they need is -100 gold for their LL lol.

    First of all the Rune Lord should get -100 taking him back to where he was before CA started to increase his cost. The RuneLord is not OP! He is just the best of the poor Dwarf LL. With RuneLords you only bring the Rune of Wrath and Ruin. That's all he contributes. I would decrease RL by 100 and other LL by 250. Even then I would still bring the RL most of the time.

    AP Dwarf infantry (LBGW, DWGW, Miners) need + 2MA. Dwarf AP infantry woefully underperforms especially since non armoured factions like Skaven now have armored options and there is so much AP in the game now.

    Broken Units that need to be completely reworked:
    Thane: Massive cost reduction needed plus better buffs.
    Master Engineer: Master cost reduction needed plus better buffs.
    Gyrobomber/Skyhammer: Big cost reduction. Give the skyhammer vangaurd plus stalk.
    Giant Slayers: Make this a 12 dwarf unit and make each unit very tough with ward saves.
    Grumbling Guard: This unit needs something better than just replenishing vigor.
    Peak Gate Guard: Far too expensive.

    Units that need a buff:
    Gyrocoptor/Brimstone Gun variant need to be much more survivable. Increase their MD and health plus give more ammo.
    Ironbreakers need to have a silver shield.

    I been using dwarfs a lot lately and i think they are stronger than lots people give them credit for.

    I disagree that dwarf AP infantry is in need of any kind of buffs at all.
    I feel Giant slayers are fine with the current reduction.
    Thane - needs a better item thats for sure i totally forgot about this to be honest, i will add it in.
    Master Engineer i feel is fine currently but -50g could be justified also.
    I did suggest -200g for Gyrobomber and ROR i do consider that a big cost reducion
    Grumbling Guard - I can agree here, but will need a cost adjustment if they get something added, they are not bad not good currently.
    Peak Gate Guard - For what they get i think the cost is justified they beat chosen GW, i think they are a bit underrated but i do also feel their abilities don't have the best synergies, so if anything add guardian as a replacement for armour sundering.

    As for -250g for LL for dwarfs and -100 for runelord, i very much disagree with, like mentioned i have been using dwarfs a lot lately and i find them very good in all match-ups the only ones i had hard time against was beastmen to be honest, with the rite build DE and HE are shut down, biggest issue for me is the mentality of those who play against dwarfs, they feel its ok to draw kite.
    TeNoSkill said:

    What about an weapons option for the Empire captain like a pistol?

    I gave him +24 anti infantry that would give him a role, if you give him a pistol that would just make him into a witch hunter.
    Smitty404 said:

    Jezzails need to lose their shield and their armour should be reduced to 20.

    Very much disagree, their thing is a big shield, armour of 20 would be rather low also, i dont think they deserve 70 armour, but most defiantly do deserve silver shields and perhaps 40 armour.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,374Registered Users
    edited April 20
    For Skaven i would Doom flayers need some kind of fix. And slow need nerf. Miniguns slow are too strong now especially due to staking with other slow effects.
    As for Jezzalis, maybe minor armor nerf would be enough.
  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 945Registered Users
    edited April 20
    Jezzails are fine. A 20-point armor nerf wouldn't hurt them particularly, I guess.

    Ratling Guns, likewise fine. There's been plenty of argument about that but in the end analysis even slow-stacking is far from breaking the game and it's not hard to stop.

    Doom Flayers need to be larger models, allowing enemy units to hit them more reliably - that's the main issue with them. Statwise they're strong but by no means out of line, the problem is just that they don't get attacked much because they're weirdly small and have very mobile animations. If their sustained combat performance still needs to be brought down after model/hitbox size is increased, then they can swap some WS for a CB boost to make them more chariot-like.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,933Registered Users
    of course they are not fine, they OP as hell with their dps. I think someone mentioned that jazz souhld get heavy reload time speed, And is tart to maybe agrre that could be a gooid nerf plus maybe some range reductions would put them in line.

    Slow stacking is just a giant middle finger to melee factions like norsca shieldbreaker plus insane slow and dps from ratling guns = slow norska inf won't even reach skaven main line and even if they will get torn apart while being block by cheep chaff.

    Yeah super fun gameplay rquires a lot of skill and tactic.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 442Registered Users


    2. I think the suggested nerfs to Kroak are a bit overboard - I know I suggested very similar ones in another thread but I was offering a pick-and-mix rather than saying they should all be done together. I would suggest choosing either +base cost or +WoM on his spells (I would lean to +WoM, since that actually forbids net+deliverance rather than just making it more expensive to bring)

    but wouldn't that require a consistent policy about similar combos? Effigy+Foot, Fishnet+Revenge, Pray/net into dragon breath... some of these cost no WoM to set-up, or not at all.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Posts: 307Registered Users
    My thoughts on the Liz units that should recieve changes on a possible hotfix:

    Ancient Salamander: -20 armor, -10 speed, +100 cost

    Salamander hunting pack: -20 armor, -5 speed, +1 MA +1MD

    Ripperdactiles: -6 CB, +1 MD

    ROR red crested skinks: Double the CD of their ability

    Cold ones, spear cold ones and horned ones: -1MA, -2 AP from weapon damage

    Lord Kroak: +100 cost
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,411Registered Users
    Energyzed said:

    My thoughts on the Liz units that should recieve changes on a possible hotfix:

    Ancient Salamander: -20 armor, -10 speed, +100 cost

    Salamander hunting pack: -20 armor, -5 speed, +1 MA +1MD

    Ripperdactiles: -6 CB, +1 MD

    ROR red crested skinks: Double the CD of their ability

    Cold ones, spear cold ones and horned ones: -1MA, -2 AP from weapon damage

    Lord Kroak: +100 cost

    On the ancient Salamander though -20 armor -10 speed and +100 cost is a bit much though.

    I think a good change for them would be to increase their melee capabilities quite a lot, reduce their ammo to 10 shots -10 speed.


  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Posts: 307Registered Users
    edited April 20



    On the ancient Salamander though -20 armor -10 speed and +100 cost is a bit much though.

    I think a good change for them would be to increase their melee capabilities quite a lot, reduce their ammo to 10 shots -10 speed.

    I think it is a reasonable nerf without making the ancient salamander useless. The main selling point of the salamander should be its range performance, not its melee. Buffing too much its melee stats will make it overlap with feral stegadon.
  • BjornBjorn Posts: 114Registered Users

    Smitty404 said:

    @Lotus_Moon

    I agree with most of your changes, but the Dwarfs need much more than a reduction in cost for their LL. I can't believe you can look at their faction and say the only thing they need is -100 gold for their LL lol.

    First of all the Rune Lord should get -100 taking him back to where he was before CA started to increase his cost. The RuneLord is not OP! He is just the best of the poor Dwarf LL. With RuneLords you only bring the Rune of Wrath and Ruin. That's all he contributes. I would decrease RL by 100 and other LL by 250. Even then I would still bring the RL most of the time.

    AP Dwarf infantry (LBGW, DWGW, Miners) need + 2MA. Dwarf AP infantry woefully underperforms especially since non armoured factions like Skaven now have armored options and there is so much AP in the game now.

    Broken Units that need to be completely reworked:
    Thane: Massive cost reduction needed plus better buffs.
    Master Engineer: Master cost reduction needed plus better buffs.
    Gyrobomber/Skyhammer: Big cost reduction. Give the skyhammer vangaurd plus stalk.
    Giant Slayers: Make this a 12 dwarf unit and make each unit very tough with ward saves.
    Grumbling Guard: This unit needs something better than just replenishing vigor.
    Peak Gate Guard: Far too expensive.

    Units that need a buff:
    Gyrocoptor/Brimstone Gun variant need to be much more survivable. Increase their MD and health plus give more ammo.
    Ironbreakers need to have a silver shield.

    I been using dwarfs a lot lately and i think they are stronger than lots people give them credit for.

    I disagree that dwarf AP infantry is in need of any kind of buffs at all.
    I feel Giant slayers are fine with the current reduction.
    Thane - needs a better item thats for sure i totally forgot about this to be honest, i will add it in.
    Master Engineer i feel is fine currently but -50g could be justified also.
    I did suggest -200g for Gyrobomber and ROR i do consider that a big cost reducion
    Grumbling Guard - I can agree here, but will need a cost adjustment if they get something added, they are not bad not good currently.
    Peak Gate Guard - For what they get i think the cost is justified they beat chosen GW, i think they are a bit underrated but i do also feel their abilities don't have the best synergies, so if anything add guardian as a replacement for armour sundering.

    As for -250g for LL for dwarfs and -100 for runelord, i very much disagree with, like mentioned i have been using dwarfs a lot lately and i find them very good in all match-ups the only ones i had hard time against was beastmen to be honest, with the rite build DE and HE are shut down, biggest issue for me is the mentality of those who play against dwarfs, they feel its ok to draw kite.
    TeNoSkill said:

    What about an weapons option for the Empire captain like a pistol?

    I gave him +24 anti infantry that would give him a role, if you give him a pistol that would just make him into a witch hunter.
    Smitty404 said:

    Jezzails need to lose their shield and their armour should be reduced to 20.

    Very much disagree, their thing is a big shield, armour of 20 would be rather low also, i dont think they deserve 70 armour, but most defiantly do deserve silver shields and perhaps 40 armour.
    Nah giant slayers underperform. From the point of view of balance, they are not needed at all in the roster. Their task is perfectly cope with all the others.
    PGG just take away their magical attacks and reduce their cost, or without reducing the cost, give them something in return.

    Without a new interface for bombers to do anything is meaningless.

  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 381Registered Users
    I'll stick to the hotfix, because CA won't change anything else anyway before the next patch. Overall very good suggestions, but I do feel they're colored by you playing Elves.

    >>> Doom-flayers - a game braking unit in its current instalment, i'm not sure if their hit box is bugged or was made as a late april fools joke that forgot to be recalled before the DLC relase.
    Suggestion * -10 normal damage/-25 AP damage, -5 speed, +bigger it box in melee and from ranged.

    Agreed.

    >>> b class="Bold">Jezzails - i'm very confused how they can be seen as balanced by anyone who is not totally bias, a unit that is near immune to its counters and has 300m range, and is way to accurate.
    Suggestion * -45m range, -30 armour, increase calibration area from 0.5 to 1.

    Agreed.

    >>> rattling guns - I don't have the biggest issue with them if there is no poison or gutter runner nets in the army, but when there are, its totally Abusive when opponents infantry runs at 10 speed and cav at 20.
    Suggestion * - 18% suppression effect.

    That's a bit much for the short range they have. I'd rather they just get a slight reduction in damage output or a change to a fixed -X speed debuff rather than a percentage.

    >>> Ancient Salamander - unit capable of 2 shooting units while kitting away with great melee stats, i call it a flame cannon/steam tank fusion.
    Suggestion * -10 speed, +150g

    It's definitely open to kiting abuse, but I'm not sure if it's a problem based on what I've seen so far. It seems to do well but not overperform, at least in non-full-kite builds.

    >>> Salamander hunting pack - Not the biggest offender of this patch but i do feel their speed should be reduced along with Ancient Slamander, but a unit of 24 models doing so much splash dmg is rather strong in some cases.
    Suggestion * -5 speed, remove anti large from missiles.

    Disagree. Their range is crap. They're very hard to use. You can go all-kite with them as your first intuition probably is, but I'd rather see them being limited to 3 max combined with 5 max total skink skirmishers (both types).

    >>> Lord Kroak - The way he promotes blobs and in general his effectiveness is just too good, the fact you can get 2 greater arcane conduits + the combo of net and itza 3 is too good in my view.
    Suggestion * +150 base cost, Itza 3 +2 WOM, Reduce cast range to 50m of all 3 spells (in TT he could only place it around himself).

    Too early to say if this guy's OP. He wrecks noobs, but good players can easily make him 1500+ wasted gold. He's an expensive sitting duck with dodgeable spells.



  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Posts: 590Registered Users



    I think at 12 WOM both cygor and manticore summins will be good for now and if needed can be reduced to 11 in the future, i do feel i overreacted to manticore changes by not accounting how OP it was before, it should be looked at as a brand new spell rather than compared to old summons. I do think they do cost a lot to bring into battle though so at 12 WOM both seem more fair in my eyes.


    Agree. At 12 WoM they would both be fair. Savage dominion too expensive at 15 it was all i was trying to say so i cannot agree more lol

    Also,saw your proposal of +1 AP -1 base damage in ungor raiders. It's instead of th range or in top of the +10 range?just for clarification.

    Which One do you think would fit the unit and benefit the balance the most?
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,958Registered Users
    After Evaluating further feedback in the thread, here is updated change log;

    HOTFIX
    Ancient Salamander * -10 speed, -25 armour +100g, +2MA/MD instead of -10 speed, +150g

    Salamander Hunting Pack * -5 speed, -20 armour, -14 Bonus v Large on missiles, +2MA/MD, +6 Weapon Strength (4ap/2normal) instead of -5 speed, remove anti large from missiles (they have 26 anti large on missiles).

    Lord Kroak * +150 base cost, Itza 3 +2 WOM, Reduce cast range to 50m or 100m of all 3 spells (in TT he could only place it around himself).



    PATCH
    Empire Captain * +24 anti infantry (To give him his own identity within the roster and compared to similar units)

    Empire Crossbow men * -25g

    Steam tank * -100g

    Nekehara Horsmen * +50g, +5CB instead of +100g

    Thane * + Good item or Rune

    Doom Diver Catapults * -30 AP missile damage, +30 normal missile damage, +50g, instead of -30 AP missile damage, +30 normal missile damage or if kept in current state +50g

    Cygor Summon -2 or 3 WOM to match Manticore summon in WOM cost.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,545Registered Users
    re the hotfix, mostly I think you go too far:

    Doomflayers the hit box is the main issue - its not at all clear how they'd perform once that's changed so I don't suggest more without testing. On the flip side if tha'ts not changed no amount of stats matter. I do think they'd be more flavorful if their melee armour bonus was higher but their base armour was lower. Give them more of a reason to think about the ability - right now with 100 armour it's kind of not a noticeable difference in combat vs not.

    jezzails mostly just need to be less accurate. They are rats and suffer from low ld so i don't mind their range and stats.

    i like ratling guns, they aren't cheap. flavorful to deal with.

    ancient salamanders are bit too strong for their cost, some kind of adjustment is warranted.

    No clue about kroak

    Agree on nerfing invocation a bit more.

    Not gonna weigh in on the other stuff but even if I wouldn't always agree appreciate you laying it all out for the devs. It's crazy I would take ANYONE's balancing over CA's not incrementally (e.g. +/- 25 points each patch) re-balancing the truly low performing units and items in this game. So many of us would volunteer to do this for them for free. Even if the volunteer got stuff wrong sometimes it would be better than useless stuff never get improved patch after patch.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,958Registered Users
    eumaies said:

    re the hotfix, mostly I think you go too far:

    Doomflayers the hit box is the main issue - its not at all clear how they'd perform once that's changed so I don't suggest more without testing. On the flip side if tha'ts not changed no amount of stats matter. I do think they'd be more flavorful if their melee armour bonus was higher but their base armour was lower. Give them more of a reason to think about the ability - right now with 100 armour it's kind of not a noticeable difference in combat vs not.

    jezzails mostly just need to be less accurate. They are rats and suffer from low ld so i don't mind their range and stats.

    i like ratling guns, they aren't cheap. flavorful to deal with.

    ancient salamanders are bit too strong for their cost, some kind of adjustment is warranted.

    No clue about kroak

    Agree on nerfing invocation a bit more.

    Not gonna weigh in on the other stuff but even if I wouldn't always agree appreciate you laying it all out for the devs. It's crazy I would take ANYONE's balancing over CA's not incrementally (e.g. +/- 25 points each patch) re-balancing the truly low performing units and items in this game. So many of us would volunteer to do this for them for free. Even if the volunteer got stuff wrong sometimes it would be better than useless stuff never get improved patch after patch.

    I have to disagree with you.

    I feel the units are very overturned and not balanced at all.

    With Doomflayers - I doubt they will increase the hit box by 4 (its 4 times smaller than chariot now) and even if they do, their animations will continue to be problematic, they are very highly overtuned currently, i'm not sure if you watched yesterdays stream but they were totally dominating cav in grind out fights, even with a hit box nerf this will continue to happen.

    Jezzails - low ld is non issue at all, when there is no way to get at them, i do mind their range of 300 and their armour at their current price tag, their accuracy is just silly also, i been trolling people hard with them and they are very OP to me.

    With rattling guns though i do agree, i feel on their own they are a well made unit, the only issue i have is their roster synergy with poison and nets, perhaps it could be 15% slow but it can stuck with multiple rattling guns, with a cap of 45%, so if you have 3 shooting at the same target its -45% slow but if its just 1 than its 15%.

    With Kroak yesterdays even showed how strong his spells are when he was near 1 shooting dwarf units with 2nd level of his spell.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,466Registered Users
    eumaies said:



    Not gonna weigh in on the other stuff but even if I wouldn't always agree appreciate you laying it all out for the devs. It's crazy I would take ANYONE's balancing over CA's not incrementally (e.g. +/- 25 points each patch) re-balancing the truly low performing units and items in this game. So many of us would volunteer to do this for them for free. Even if the volunteer got stuff wrong sometimes it would be better than useless stuff never get improved patch after patch.

    Hopefully this is changing somewhat, I was super impressed with the -150 cost to Loremaster this patch. A significant and meaningful cost reduction on a unit that was clearly underperforming and overpriced.

    It was a relatively easy change because his kit is solid, he just needed a price reduction; whereas Dwarf heroes need more than price reductions they need new items and abilities for the most part. But still great job from CA_Duck with the Loremaster.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,336Registered Users
    @Lotus_Moon I don't post here often anymore and I"m not a great player, but a lot of these I'm curious about. Like are Chaos Knights really in need of a buff for example? (I haven't played MP in awhile, back when I was playing they were great). There are a TON of changes here, some of which look like they're so small I wonder if they're even going to do much anyways. I do agree with the Hotfix stuff for the most part just from what I've seen, but I am a fan of letting things that are approximately balanced stay the way they are rather than trying to make them "perfect".
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,958Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    @Lotus_Moon I don't post here often anymore and I"m not a great player, but a lot of these I'm curious about. Like are Chaos Knights really in need of a buff for example? (I haven't played MP in awhile, back when I was playing they were great). There are a TON of changes here, some of which look like they're so small I wonder if they're even going to do much anyways. I do agree with the Hotfix stuff for the most part just from what I've seen, but I am a fan of letting things that are approximately balanced stay the way they are rather than trying to make them "perfect".

    The way i see it in Multiplayer often small changes lead to getting the balance rite.

    Currently its clear that Skv/LZM/VC/VP are above others so without nerfing those too much (unless where needed) the other way to bring balance is to buff the other factions or should i say balance out other factions.

    Waywatchers continue to be a nuisance, so is star of avelorn, my aim is to express what i believe would make overall experience in MP less abusive. At same time i don't think my ideas are perfect its why i edited the main post over 6 times now just based on the feedback on this thread.

    In regards to Chaos yes i do feel Chaos Knights are a bit behind at the moment, they have quite a low AP for such expensive unit, they are hardly used currently.

    As to answer your last sentance, " I am a fan of letting things that are approximately balanced stay the way they are rather than trying to make them "perfect"."

    I have to disagree, i think the balance rite now is not "fine" hence i feel the need to offer those suggestions, if you do think the balance is good currently than i can respect that view just i do disagree on it.

  • FrookFrook Posts: 147Registered Users
    edited April 21
    I don't think free company militia needs AP damage, you don't bring them for that. Something like +2 or even +3 non-AP damage would be better. No need for shoot on the move for either that or RoR but make the RoR cheaper.

    Steamtank shouldn't be cheaper I think, it's value is okay when you bring it. It is more that they are extremely vulnerable to AP missiles that's a problem which won't be fixed with cost reduction, missile resistance or silver shield would be better, I prefer the latter. They would still be vulnerable to melee AP and especially AP cavalry but don't suffer so catastrophically from AP missiles.

    Empire captain needs utility more than just BvI, which is just not very useful on a hero fighter unit. What is he supposed to fight with BvI? Foot lords? Unless CA adds infantry single model units this is not useful. Would much prefer abilities or items to justify the base cost. Something to synergies with caster lords like Gelt or if CA adds other caster lords to empire. Maybe some sort of active aura ability that gives large boost to speed and leadership. It is supposed to be captain after all, could even add it to campaign.

    I think Malekith could see reduction to some of his items. They are really too expensive. I also think CoK and CoDK should be more expensive, like +200 to both and have more HP and charge bonus. Both to make it have more impact when you lose them and so they aren't so prone to losing cavalry engagements when they are supposed to be anti-cavalry. DE really struggles against expensive heavy cavalry.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,958Registered Users
    Frook said:

    I don't think free company militia needs AP damage, you don't bring them for that. Something like +2 or even +3 non-AP damage would be better. No need for shoot on the move for either that or RoR but make the RoR cheaper.

    Steamtank shouldn't be cheaper I think, it's value is okay when you bring it. It is more that they are extremely vulnerable to AP missiles that's a problem which won't be fixed with cost reduction, missile resistance or silver shield would be better, I prefer the latter. They would still be vulnerable to melee AP and especially AP cavalry but don't suffer so catastrophically from AP missiles.

    Empire captain needs utility more than just BvI, which is just not very useful on a hero fighter unit. What is he supposed to fight with BvI? Foot lords? Unless CA adds infantry single model units this is not useful. Would much prefer abilities or items to justify the base cost. Something to synergies with caster lords like Gelt or if CA adds other caster lords to empire. Maybe some sort of active aura ability that gives large boost to speed and leadership. It is supposed to be captain after all, could even add it to campaign.

    I think Malekith could see reduction to some of his items. They are really too expensive. I also think CoK and CoDK should be more expensive, like +200 to both and have more HP and charge bonus. Both to make it have more impact when you lose them and so they aren't so prone to losing cavalry engagements when they are supposed to be anti-cavalry. DE really struggles against expensive heavy cavalry.

    Vampire Pirate Militia have it and they quite useful, they also have pistols so +1ap would help them out.

    Steam tank should NOT have missile resistance or silver shields, it already has extremely high armour, it should by all means be countered by AP missiles and take some damage from normal missiles also, is your aim to make it immune to shooting damage? That would be OP. It should have counters.

    As for Captain +24 anti large would make him good at foot hero duelling as well as vs lots elite infantry, i only see it as a positive. It would work vs ALL infantry, and vs all characters on foot.

    I feel COK are in decent spot, not deserving of +200g, though i do want to see more how the new rampage affects them.

    Malekiths items yes i do agree on they are rather expensve.
  • FrookFrook Posts: 147Registered Users
    edited April 21
    Sure +1 AP is useful for militia but it I think more non-ap would be more useful because you generally bring them to fight low-armoured units that disrupt your backline. Especially I think their missile damage is not that great against low armour units, really could use a bit more non-AP damage on their missiles at the very least.

    Steam tank is already very vulnerable to melee AP due its pitiful MD, especially AP cavalry which it can't get away from. However sure cutting significant amount of its cost could make it so it doesn't trade so badly against AP missiles.

    The problem with +24 BvI on captain is why would you even use it to fight blobs of infantry with? I just don't see a situation for spending so much on empire captain for it to deal a bit more damage to infantry, 24 BvI is really not that big of a deal if it is fighting against blobs that it can only hit like 5 at a time. Comparison with Paladin is not apt because BvI and BvL are not equal for single model units, large units often have lower model count and higher cost that a hero unit is worthwhile to bring to fight them because killing even few models is big in impact. It would be a buff of course but I don't think you'd see empire captain still because they would bring nothing to the table a regular unit can't do, there needs to be some sort of utility to bring instead. Especially because empire captain doesn't have gryphon mount after all, only pegasus. I agree that it should be different than Paladin thus shouldn't get BvL but an item or an aura might be actually useful because then it would improve value of your army where the cost could be better than just bringing 1 more unit. Especially some sort of speed buff.




  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,958Registered Users
    Frook said:

    Sure +1 AP is useful for militia but it I think more non-ap would be more useful because you generally bring them to fight low-armoured units that disrupt your backline. Especially I think their missile damage is not that great against low armour units, really could use a bit more non-AP damage on their missiles at the very least.

    Steam tank is already very vulnerable to melee AP due its pitiful MD, especially AP cavalry which it can't get away from. However sure cutting significant amount of its cost could make it so it doesn't trade so badly against AP missiles.

    The problem with +24 BvI on captain is why would you even use it to fight blobs of infantry with? I just don't see a situation for spending so much on empire captain for it to deal a bit more damage to infantry, 24 BvI is really not that big of a deal if it is fighting against blobs that it can only hit like 5 at a time. Comparison with Paladin is not apt because BvI and BvL are not equal for single model units, large units often have lower model count and higher cost that a hero unit is worthwhile to bring to fight them because killing even few models is big in impact. It would be a buff of course but I don't think you'd see empire captain still because they would bring nothing to the table a regular unit can't do, there needs to be some sort of utility to bring when instead. Especially because empire captain doesn't have gryphon mount after all, only pegasus. I agree that it should be different than Paladin thus shouldn't get BvL but an item or an aura might be actually useful because then it would improve value of your army where the cost could be better than just bringing 1 more unit. Especially some sort of speed buff.

    I understand your point about militia but wouldn't the +1 AP make them a bit better all round unit in that case than? and almost all units have some kind of armour anyway, fire on the move would make them much better already.

    I heard many times steam tank is bad vs AP cav, but i seen it kill 2 COK plenty of times in melee, i also seen it beat Fire Born in melee numerous times, so i don't find it poor in that regard at all, AP missile units that can threaten it are WW and siters of avelorn, its already a great pick vs HE's so removing one counter that HE's have would not be fair, and vs WE's its not a good pick due to WW and Starfire arrows but if it had silver shields how could WE's kill it? They would have absolutely no way of killing it, it would break the match-up. I think its bad vs WE's now but with silver shields i think it be OP vs WE's.

    As for captain my answer is why not? If you put him on a peg with +24 anti infantry it would make for a great assasin, on horse with +24 anti infantry it would make him a threat to units that normally counter cav. I'm afraid giving too many auras to Empire, as they already become very strong with warrior pirest AOE aura stacking and break cav fights, a speed boost active could be a good idea perhaps. But i think anti infantry is quite decent to be honest, look at blood dragon on hellsteed his really strong vs foot lords/charecters due to it.
  • FrookFrook Posts: 147Registered Users



    I understand your point about militia but wouldn't the +1 AP make them a bit better all round unit in that case than? and almost all units have some kind of armour anyway, fire on the move would make them much better already.

    I heard many times steam tank is bad vs AP cav, but i seen it kill 2 COK plenty of times in melee, i also seen it beat Fire Born in melee numerous times, so i don't find it poor in that regard at all, AP missile units that can threaten it are WW and siters of avelorn, its already a great pick vs HE's so removing one counter that HE's have would not be fair, and vs WE's its not a good pick due to WW and Starfire arrows but if it had silver shields how could WE's kill it? They would have absolutely no way of killing it, it would break the match-up. I think its bad vs WE's now but with silver shields i think it be OP vs WE's.

    As for captain my answer is why not? If you put him on a peg with +24 anti infantry it would make for a great assasin, on horse with +24 anti infantry it would make him a threat to units that normally counter cav. I'm afraid giving too many auras to Empire, as they already become very strong with warrior pirest AOE aura stacking and break cav fights, a speed boost active could be a good idea perhaps. But i think anti infantry is quite decent to be honest, look at blood dragon on hellsteed his really strong vs foot lords/charecters due to it.

    True enough, almost all units have some sort of armour so that +1 AP might be better in the end. I liked the pistolier treatment though where they just buffed non-AP damage. I think there are too much AP as it is already in the game already. I don't think shooting while moving is necessary but if that is added I don't think a damage buff would be required anyway.

    There is no way that steam tank beats 2 CoK unless the CoK are really badly beat up. I just tried it against AI and I know the AI is bad but I simply rightclicked the steam tank and 1 CoK nearly beat it, no cycle charging. In fact the CoK even lost 3-4 models until it got there. 2 CoK is not even close, especially because for some reason AI spread the fire between them. Fireborn has low AP comparatively so it might be do bad against steamtank. CoK is also an outlier in that it has relatively low charge bonus but this is negated by the fact steamtank has nearly no MD whatsoever. Fireborn or other shock cavalry with high charge bonus but low AP might underperform comparatively because of this. This is one of the reasons I think CoK should have more HP and charge bonus but also cost more. They are a weird unit that overperforms for their 1K cost against a variety of single model large units but also sometimes fail to do their job in screening heavy cav against more expensive ones because they get so badly beat up in counter-charge due lower amount of models and low HP. It would also make them more of a conscious investment.

    It is true that AoE stacking of priest can get a bit out of hand but that is mostly with cavalry. However you would have to get both priest and captain to have only speed buff. I agree that dragon lord on hellsteed is good but that also has a bit to do with the fact vampire counts depend on their lord to do that. It is not like empire struggles too much against single model units. I do not dislike the BvI and I do think it would make captain perform a bit better but I just don't think it would matter in the end. I might be a bit biased for a speed buff though because I think empire infantry struggles a lot to position while depending a lot on positioning for multitude of reasons.

  • ystyst Posts: 6,256Registered Users
    edited April 21
    Lol.... +24 anti inf, frikking broken af. Uve a guy with shield with anti inf just 1 point behind legendary lord lokhir whom r dual wield. Even higher than blood dragon lord lol!

    Whats his costs again? $450-475? The cheapest and most economical utilities hero in the whole frikking game. Amazing hero on his own for his costs, then even better with +4 ld +5 def on top of hero encourage. Now u go look at utter garbage reliq at $500

    He’ll be slaughtering entire regiment of chaos warriors like dummy practice. Costing barely just a little over $500 ish

    1h shield guy with 74 att vs inf. Not a single lord with shield does that. Frikking higher than grimgor
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  • TeNoSkillTeNoSkill Posts: 2,827Registered Users
    Well, a silver shield on stank would only reduce fire from the front so you would have to manouver more to get good shots at it.
    Also the Empire captain shouldn t have his main focus on fighting but supporting formations and making them more efficient.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,958Registered Users
    edited April 21
    Frook said:



    I understand your point about militia but wouldn't the +1 AP make them a bit better all round unit in that case than? and almost all units have some kind of armour anyway, fire on the move would make them much better already.

    I heard many times steam tank is bad vs AP cav, but i seen it kill 2 COK plenty of times in melee, i also seen it beat Fire Born in melee numerous times, so i don't find it poor in that regard at all, AP missile units that can threaten it are WW and siters of avelorn, its already a great pick vs HE's so removing one counter that HE's have would not be fair, and vs WE's its not a good pick due to WW and Starfire arrows but if it had silver shields how could WE's kill it? They would have absolutely no way of killing it, it would break the match-up. I think its bad vs WE's now but with silver shields i think it be OP vs WE's.

    As for captain my answer is why not? If you put him on a peg with +24 anti infantry it would make for a great assasin, on horse with +24 anti infantry it would make him a threat to units that normally counter cav. I'm afraid giving too many auras to Empire, as they already become very strong with warrior pirest AOE aura stacking and break cav fights, a speed boost active could be a good idea perhaps. But i think anti infantry is quite decent to be honest, look at blood dragon on hellsteed his really strong vs foot lords/charecters due to it.

    True enough, almost all units have some sort of armour so that +1 AP might be better in the end. I liked the pistolier treatment though where they just buffed non-AP damage. I think there are too much AP as it is already in the game already. I don't think shooting while moving is necessary but if that is added I don't think a damage buff would be required anyway.

    There is no way that steam tank beats 2 CoK unless the CoK are really badly beat up. I just tried it against AI and I know the AI is bad but I simply rightclicked the steam tank and 1 CoK nearly beat it, no cycle charging. In fact the CoK even lost 3-4 models until it got there. 2 CoK is not even close, especially because for some reason AI spread the fire between them. Fireborn has low AP comparatively so it might be do bad against steamtank. CoK is also an outlier in that it has relatively low charge bonus but this is negated by the fact steamtank has nearly no MD whatsoever. Fireborn or other shock cavalry with high charge bonus but low AP might underperform comparatively because of this. This is one of the reasons I think CoK should have more HP and charge bonus but also cost more. They are a weird unit that overperforms for their 1K cost against a variety of single model large units but also sometimes fail to do their job in screening heavy cav against more expensive ones because they get so badly beat up in counter-charge due lower amount of models and low HP. It would also make them more of a conscious investment.

    It is true that AoE stacking of priest can get a bit out of hand but that is mostly with cavalry. However you would have to get both priest and captain to have only speed buff. I agree that dragon lord on hellsteed is good but that also has a bit to do with the fact vampire counts depend on their lord to do that. It is not like empire struggles too much against single model units. I do not dislike the BvI and I do think it would make captain perform a bit better but I just don't think it would matter in the end. I might be a bit biased for a speed buff though because I think empire infantry struggles a lot to position while depending a lot on positioning for multitude of reasons.

    You make good Points there, i will need to do more testing on Stank thank, but i'm still against silver shields or any kind of missile resistance or immune to vigour, i think just cost down is the way to balance it now, even +MD could be decent.
    yst said:

    Lol.... +24 anti inf, frikking broken af. Uve a guy with shield with anti inf just 1 point behind legendary lord lokhir whom r dual wield. Even higher than blood dragon lord lol!

    Whats his costs again? $450-475? The cheapest and most economical utilities hero in the whole frikking game. Amazing hero on his own for his costs, then even better with +4 ld +5 def on top of hero encourage. Now u go look at utter garbage reliq at $500

    He’ll be slaughtering entire regiment of chaos warriors like dummy practice. Costing barely just a little over $500 ish

    1h shield guy with 74 att vs inf. Not a single lord with shield does that. Frikking higher than grimgor

    Perhaps +20 would be more balanced, relique is a support piece though not a fighter, its a support unit.
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