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Skaven machinery, guns and artillery.

AgandorAgandor Posts: 20Registered Users
edited April 25 in General Discussion
Should the skaven arsenal of war, including everything from warplock jeezails to the doomwheel, be more close to lore to help balance out their power as they are in the game now?

In lore it is often mentioned that while the skaven might have more advanced technology then the empire and even the dawi, 8 out of 10 times an empire great cannon will fire it's shot without fail, whether it hits or misses, while a skaven warp lightning cannon on the other hand, has a 4 in 10 times chance of firing it's shot at all, the remaining 6 is likely to cause the damn thing to explode and kill it's crew.

What I'm getting at is, of course it'd be easy for CA to move some numbers around and bring a nerf to these new skaven units, but would it be more fair if all skaven machinery had a chance to malfunction? To make it a bit more manageable, let's say that if your mechanical unit isn't at full health, it has a chance to malfunction on the battlefield.

Your weapon teams will have waaay longer reload times, your artillery will fire shots with random trajectory, and your doomwheel and doomflayers have a chance to just blow up and kill themselves, tough you'll get a warning when it's about to happen, so you have some time to redirect the blast into a crowd of enemies.

I realise that doing it this way makes the skaven very unpredictable and maybe even not fun to play, but would it make them more fair to fight against? Lemme know what you lads and lassies think.
Post edited by Agandor on

Comments

  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 5,832Registered Users
    I wouldn’t necessarily mind having artillery and certain weapon teams be susceptible to misfires leading to the unit taking damage. Everything can be balanced somehow.
    Lord of the Undermountain
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • SchepelSchepel Senior Member Posts: 1,468Registered Users
    I get where you are coming from, but none of the other factions have anything similar. Therefore, this sort of thing would be a handicap so large it would make the rats unplayable compared to every other faction. Furthermore, cost is currently balanced around 100% functionality. If rat artillery and the like would fail to work most of the time, the cost would have to be decreased accordingly, and the availability of replacements would have to be sorted, as well.

    I can't see WG going anywhere near the tabletop levels of malfunction chances. Just too much of a PITA to balance.
  • DarkLordDDarkLordD Posts: 2,315Registered Users
    I totally see what you mean, and it would be lore friendly.

    Would I personally like it from a solo campaign persective kind of view ? No. I don't like the feeling it gives me.

    In the MP community It might be a nice add ! but keep it there
    Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.

    --~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
  • turrehundturrehund Posts: 131Registered Users
    DarkLordD said:

    I totally see what you mean, and it would be lore friendly.

    Would I personally like it from a solo campaign persective kind of view ? No. I don't like the feeling it gives me.

    In the MP community It might be a nice add ! but keep it there

    I actually feel like the MP community is the one place where this would be most out of place. Many players are already somewhat sceptical to the RNG of the Phoenix rebirth (and other similar mechanics), as it places too much emphasis on pure chance than on actual player skill. While hilarious, I'm sure the player would be somewhat miffed if his entire artillery line explodes on the first shot, his Warplock Jezzails commit accidental suicide and his caster summons a gateway to the Realm of Chaos when trying to cast Warp Lightning all in the first 15 seconds of a competetive match.

    I'd like the mechanics much more in Single Player, as it doesn't matter as much. Skaven campaign gameplay should, realistically, also be an incredibly annoying game of whack-a-mole as you have overwhelming numbers on your side but your generals and settlements constantly rebel against you. Picture a battle where your reinforcements suddenly attack you instead of the enemy, or a campaign where your settlements defect to the invading Skaven faction.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Posts: 2,312Registered Users
    edited April 25
    I think that's easier to get away with in a TT game where random dice-rolls are an assumed part of the process. In a TW game the general expectation is that if you lose it's your own fault. Maybe you had a bad army composition, maybe you made some tactical errors, or maybe the AI outmaneuvered you on the campaign map. You learn from your mistake and can correct it when you savescum on subsequent playthroughs.

    What most TW players are probably not expecting is that their failure or defeat could result from something completely out of their control, an algorithm firing behind the scenes that randomly decides a bunch of their units die or don't fire. Taking a player's control away is a touchy subject--just look at how people react to the Rampage mechanic.

    EDIT:

    Adding onto this thought, the real way to implement this, and in retrospect I'm amazed they didn't include something like this with the Master Warlock Engineer, is to give the Skaven abilities that harm their own units in return for a specific benefit. For example, the MWE could have had an ability that increased an artillery or weapon team's ranged damage, but with a chance that the weapon would misfire and damage the unit. Then he could have had another ability that increased the rate of fire but with a chance that the unit's weapon might jam.

    Done this way you give the player back some control. They can choose to use the ability, knowing it might have some drawbacks.
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,393Registered Users
    The (tiny) MP community will prevent this happening and then deny they ever impact SP.

    Plus CA change ...

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,630Registered Users
    edited April 25
    HoneyBun said:

    The (tiny) MP community will prevent this happening and then deny they ever impact SP.

    Plus CA change ...

    I don't want this in SP either. Good RNG is when you can plan ahead but can't be too secure. This is bad RNG because stuff blowing up in your face immediately has the only contingency of "don't give battle".

  • AstraeusAstraeus Member BrittonisPosts: 358Registered Users
    I like @Agandor 's notion for the warp fuel obsessed clan Skryre, but I am not sure I could cope with the additional micromanagement needed to spot let alone "redirect the blast" in time.

    I prefer malfunction and opportunity to withdraw the expensive unit (rather than self annihilation) weighed against @Draculasaurus ' optional risk-reward for extra range/more zzapp etc. Risk keeping the malfunctional arty on the field and there's a diceroll chance it can be 'kicked' back into life by an irrate skaven and so rejoin the battle.

    If the pre-battle strength bar is against me, I may happily choose to go "all in."
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,630Registered Users
    edited April 25
    This random stuff has 0 chance of getting implemented outside of some optional fun mode. All the other random stuff like stupidity and animosity wasn't implemented either and the few things that are random (Phoenix and HPA) are just plain bad and show why they shouldn't have been adapted from the TT in the first place.

  • psychoakpsychoak Posts: 2,242Registered Users
    I'd like reliability just fine, but it's lack is not a balance problem, and TT parity wouldn't be a plus.

    TW is not TT, and artillery misfires were such a random screw job in TT, that you needed a very large army to take the risk of using large monsters and artillery, specifically because they so easily caused purely random chaos. You also don't have any persistence, you fight a battle with your full army, not with the remains after your last fight.

    In TW, you fight, someone wins, and the remains of that army remain on the main map. If, with every shot, you risk explosions, your artillery will almost never fire, for fear of blowing them up needlessly. Only in dire circumstances, would you use such a dangerous object against lesser threats. You'd risk shooting the dragon, or the mammoth, but never the heavy infantry block unless you were going to lose otherwise. You'd be doomed to come out of a battle with catastrophic casualties otherwise, no matter how easy it was. With your powerful, unreliable units, being your primary source of damage output, taking damage to them would be your doom in the next combat.

    This also harms the use of such single target monsters. Once artillery are powerful enough to have TT parity reliability, large monsters are equally risky to use. That dragon becomes an item of such extreme risk, that bringing one is foolhardy. The first time you fight an army with significant artillery, it dies at the outset.

    Reliability needs to be vastly toned down to be in a real time, persistent environment. As does damage. It cannot exist in TT form because such a power level is incompatible with both factors.

    I would give them slight damage increases, and a reliability rating. As a battle progresses, each shot fired decreases the reliability rating. Then you'd use this reliability rating to determine misfire chances, and only open up the potential for self harm at high levels that never became catastrophic even in the worst circumstances. Make Dwarfs high enough to rarely, if ever misfire with an engineer assisting, and make Skaven low enough to rarely, if ever, not misfire more often than not by the time they run out of ammunition.
  • yodayodayodayoda Posts: 3Registered Users
    The dumbest suggestion I've heard on these forums. It would make Skaven useless to play. Also, it's not like Skaven are OP, which is what is suggested.
  • SeetheSeethe Posts: 182Registered Users
    I actually do not mind them misfiring as long as it's not a ridiculous chance for them to do so. High risk high reward is what the Skaven are all about.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 5,832Registered Users
    You wouldn’t need misfires to make the entire unit go boom obviously. Just taking a wee bit of damage like for miscasts for example.
    Lord of the Undermountain
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Posts: 5,247Registered Users
    edited April 25
    HoneyBun said:

    The (tiny) MP community will prevent this happening and then deny they ever impact SP.

    Plus CA change ...

    Not really. It would be campaign only since CA does include the lore stuff in campaign like the Sylvanian ranged units from Storm of Chaos. Hells it's more likely to not be added due to stupid AI then MP community.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,210Registered Users
    Randomly losing an artillery piece could be annoying no matter how loreful it is, but misfires could be implemented in some other ways like firing a bigger than usual warp lighting bolt once in a while to totally random direction.

    Also such a thing should exist for some other factions too. E.g. Hellcannon can unleash its daemon and rampage to any nearby unit in melee. Should be considered for WH3.
  • rad13rad13 Member Posts: 604Registered Users
    all the TT rules for random events don't carry across to TWW due to the scale of the latter.

    In TT, you'd have 1 or 2 units who are prone to some RNG event, and the game only lasted 6 turns (or later 5-7 turns). So the maximum number of times you could be disadvantaged, or advantaged, as a player was very small and only a fraction of your overall army. And the scale of the game was small enough that the challenge as the player was to win despite a bad scatter on the catapault, or malfunction with some skaven gear, or that ogre with the big pot eating one of your own men instead.

    the huge scale, the number of times each unit fires, and the number of each RNG unit that you can bring makes it totally useless as a mechanic as it was in TT
  • donmakeodonmakeo Posts: 13Registered Users
    i would really love misfires chances both on single and multiplayer, to me it would add more fun to the game,and it prevents some op unit spams,to me it's just right, what i don't like it's a skaven cannon or catapult to be better than the dwarves ones...i think that on multiplayer, it won't be just a casual effect, a skillfull player should consider that "technology" can fail, and should be carefull on how much to invest on it, of course more efficency = higher cost, and i would really love to have more items to chose from when equipping a lord/hero just like in TT or even for the normal units,like banners, or runes for dwarves cannons...i hope my english is correct enough XD
  • sieahsieah Posts: 427Registered Users
    Please no.
    Or at least keep it MP only if they care so much about balance.
  • DarkLordDDarkLordD Posts: 2,315Registered Users
    turrehund said:

    DarkLordD said:

    I totally see what you mean, and it would be lore friendly.

    Would I personally like it from a solo campaign persective kind of view ? No. I don't like the feeling it gives me.

    In the MP community It might be a nice add ! but keep it there

    I actually feel like the MP community is the one place where this would be most out of place. Many players are already somewhat sceptical to the RNG of the Phoenix rebirth (and other similar mechanics), as it places too much emphasis on pure chance than on actual player skill. While hilarious, I'm sure the player would be somewhat miffed if his entire artillery line explodes on the first shot, his Warplock Jezzails commit accidental suicide and his caster summons a gateway to the Realm of Chaos when trying to cast Warp Lightning all in the first 15 seconds of a competetive match.

    I'd like the mechanics much more in Single Player, as it doesn't matter as much. Skaven campaign gameplay should, realistically, also be an incredibly annoying game of whack-a-mole as you have overwhelming numbers on your side but your generals and settlements constantly rebel against you. Picture a battle where your reinforcements suddenly attack you instead of the enemy, or a campaign where your settlements defect to the invading Skaven faction.
    Hey ! how are you doing :) ?


    You make a good point there, and I think you know more about this then I do (well I am kind of sure :D). I don't play (almost any at all) MP. But my general idea was that it could fit better there in my eyes, but now you say that, perhaps you are right.

    But the mechanic while I totally agree, 100% lore friendly, I just don't want it in my solo games haha, I just like the way it is to be very honest if I speak only for myself ;)


    I am not so fond of that kind of things I guess ! To each its own :)
    Dark Lord D the Fearsome (I) ~~~ First Dark Lord of the Old World.

    --~~ let them hate me as long as they fear me ------------------------- Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus Germanicus, Roman Emperor
  • mozartnikmozartnik Junior Member Posts: 3Registered Users
    edited April 26
    Hi! Found here is such a nasty bug in the game. Snipers Skaven after the improvement of technology and similar improvements in the forge of the warp stopped finished off the distance. They shoot at the enemy within range, but the projectiles simply disappear at a certain distance, and the damage is not fixed. From mods was only a mod for more points and levels for heroes and lords. Tried without it, the situation is similar. Reinstalling the game and updating the drivers didn't help either.


  • BoombastekBoombastek Posts: 1,959Registered Users
    mozartnik said:

    Hi! Found here is such a nasty bug in the game. Snipers Skaven after the improvement of technology and similar improvements in the forge of the warp stopped finished off the distance. They shoot at the enemy within range, but the projectiles simply disappear at a certain distance, and the damage is not fixed. From mods was only a mod for more points and levels for heroes and lords. Tried without it, the situation is similar. Reinstalling the game and updating the drivers didn't help either.


    Same bug as RoR Necrofex colossus.
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