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jezzails are good, and thats a good thing

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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 22,184Registered Users
    saell said:

    So iirc the dlc isnt balanced bay the blance team. One way we can see this is that while globadiers and bombadiers have the same hp/armor jezzails and ratling guns from the dlc got much more armor and hp then warpfire thrower (which were balanced by balance team!) So i would start with a hp and armor nerf to match them with warpfire thrower.

    Globadiers and Bombardiers have 100 armor. 100>70

    Warpfirethrowers are universally acknowledged to be worthless garbage and their low armor is one of the reasons among others.


  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Posts: 855Registered Users
    The only thing that the weapons team for Skaven need is a nerf on their defense and armor stats. Maybe some tweaks on Ikit.
    People have been calling for nerfs on everything in the Skaven and Lizardmen roster ever since the DLC came out. Some have gone even as far as to call Queek OP. The only balanced thing according to people seems to be the Ark of Sotek bastiladon variant, which is garbage.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,519Registered Users

    The only thing that the weapons team for Skaven need is a nerf on their defense and armor stats. Maybe some tweaks on Ikit.
    People have been calling for nerfs on everything in the Skaven and Lizardmen roster ever since the DLC came out. Some have gone even as far as to call Queek OP. The only balanced thing according to people seems to be the Ark of Sotek bastiladon variant, which is garbage.

    Jezails need less accuracy too at the very least and likely a bit less range too.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 8,155Registered Users
    edited May 2019

    Theo91 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    except theres no real counter to jezzails though thats the issue, arty misses them due to spread foramtion, at least give them tight formation and -55m range
    You said in your post I originally responded to that the counter was going wide... which I would agree with. Maybe against skaven you just go super wide with unshielded units

    Risk if they bring storm vermin and slingers that you lose
    It's amazing that being outpicked is seemingly only a problem when Skaven can do it. Before you could practically predict to a T what a Skaven player would bring in a competitive match and counter accordingly since their options were so limited. Why is it so bad that Skaven can now keep people guessing too?
    coz they can keep people guessing without having OP stuff, theres no need for Jezzails to be this OP.
    I think it's clear "OP" in this context means "upsets the obnoxious flying caster lord meta".
    skv are broekn OP now
    Flying Caster Lords are broken OP to the extent that they warp the entire meta around them, so why's that not a problem to the extent that you categorically reject any changes to it, but Skaven somehow are?
    want to use flying caster lord vs my skaven? see what is more OP lol
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 595Registered Users

    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    except theres no real counter to jezzails though thats the issue, arty misses them due to spread foramtion, at least give them tight formation and -55m range
    No range nerfs. We can talk about survivability nerfs, but range and accuracy are out of the question.
    Well luckily that's up to CA and not really your call.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 22,184Registered Users
    edited May 2019

    Theo91 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    except theres no real counter to jezzails though thats the issue, arty misses them due to spread foramtion, at least give them tight formation and -55m range
    You said in your post I originally responded to that the counter was going wide... which I would agree with. Maybe against skaven you just go super wide with unshielded units

    Risk if they bring storm vermin and slingers that you lose
    It's amazing that being outpicked is seemingly only a problem when Skaven can do it. Before you could practically predict to a T what a Skaven player would bring in a competitive match and counter accordingly since their options were so limited. Why is it so bad that Skaven can now keep people guessing too?
    coz they can keep people guessing without having OP stuff, theres no need for Jezzails to be this OP.
    I think it's clear "OP" in this context means "upsets the obnoxious flying caster lord meta".
    skv are broekn OP now
    Flying Caster Lords are broken OP to the extent that they warp the entire meta around them, so why's that not a problem to the extent that you categorically reject any changes to it, but Skaven somehow are?
    want to use flying caster lord vs my skaven? see what is more OP lol
    I just said that Jezzails counter flying caster lords, didn't I?

    That's why you want them nerfed into oblivion, thanks for further supporting my point.
    Cirdan said:

    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    except theres no real counter to jezzails though thats the issue, arty misses them due to spread foramtion, at least give them tight formation and -55m range
    No range nerfs. We can talk about survivability nerfs, but range and accuracy are out of the question.
    Well luckily that's up to CA and not really your call.
    Well, if they don't nerf them into oblivion I bet you people will complain anyway, so that's a pretty empty statement.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,968Registered Users

    -55m is a must nerf, than still needmore nerfs on top of them, going wide with cheap crap is a coutner sure, than the rest skaven army will dominate you coz you have no real units, thats not a realistic counter. They stupid OP

    I would like to second the importance of a range nerf. It's unprecedented for missile infantry, and the reason I think this will be game breaking in the long run is not the dps, but how it will impact the available strategies in many matchups. What it does is that it puts the opponent on a clock within a 600 meter diameter zone of influence. This is what artillery does, but jezzails are resilient to all traditional artillery counters. So, as long as range stays the way it is it severely limits the options available to the opponent in a way that no other unit in the game does. Maybe the ror cygor gets closest, or bone giant, but both of these has one preferred type of target, while jezz do ok vs any unit type and has pinpoint accuracy.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 22,184Registered Users
    edited May 2019
    "Unprecedented" is a non-starter of an argument. 190 range T1 skirmishers are "unprecedented" too. There has simply not been a sniper unit in the game before.

    Jezzails are also countered by going wide because they have the same targeting flaws as artillery where several models waste their shot on a single target.

    Post edited by dge1 on

  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 2,208Registered Users
    Nerf them into oblivion, i have enough of this ****
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,968Registered Users

    "Unprecedented" is a non-starter of an argument. 190 range T1 skirmishers are "unprecedented" too. There has simply not been a sniper unit in the game before.

    Jezzails are also countered by going wide because they have the same targeting flaws as artillery where several models waste their shot on a single target.

    It's a good example, thanks. There has been endless discussions on these forums about whether HE archers should get their range nerfed by 10 meters, endless, because of if the diff should be 10 or 20 meters up to waywatchers, or discussions whether it should be 10 or 20 meters down to other archers/crossbows. Because these things matter!

    Now you have a missile infantry unit that has 120 meters advantage over HE archers! Can you see the difference? Can you at least try?

    There has also been a lot of discussions about Lotheren sea guard, having 165 meters, non-ap and silver shield, being too strong for 750 gold. Now you have 300 bloody meters with silver shield and ap.

    How can you not see the impact of this?

    How many games have you seen or played where skaven loses that doesn't involve rushing them, preferrably vs a new player with a full vanguard deployment....
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 22,184Registered Users
    edited May 2019

    "Unprecedented" is a non-starter of an argument. 190 range T1 skirmishers are "unprecedented" too. There has simply not been a sniper unit in the game before.

    Jezzails are also countered by going wide because they have the same targeting flaws as artillery where several models waste their shot on a single target.

    It's a good example, thanks. There has been endless discussions on these forums about whether HE archers should get their range nerfed by 10 meters, endless, because of if the diff should be 10 or 20 meters up to waywatchers, or discussions whether it should be 10 or 20 meters down to other archers/crossbows. Because these things matter!
    So where are the endless threads about nerfing Elf archers?

    Also, as CA so far has done nothing about Elf archers, why should Jezzails be nerfed either?

  • ystyst Posts: 6,519Registered Users

    Now you have a missile infantry unit that has 120 meters advantage over HE archers! Can you see the difference? Can you at least try?

    Oh pls, enough of the hyprocrisy, skinks with 70m range is called op meanwhile waywatch shooting happily at 190m. I mean it really is only ok if elves shooting 110-120m than others.

    We see these sort of nonsense all the time, even queek get rekt by tyrion time to time but no queek is op af. Meanwhile loremaster happily trading over $650 on lords. By now ppl should know if u heal, ure op unless ure playing elves. If u spells ure op, again unless ure playing elves.

    Kroak cant even be the greatest caster lol coz of elves. Grails cant be good coz of u know, elven cav. Jezz cant shoot far coz of helf archer LOL! skaven cant skirmish coz u know, shadow warriors any any elven skirmishers r the only skirmishers than can be in the game.

    Go ask these toxic grp whats the only balance unit in dlc they will tell u its ark lulz, same thing like they would tell u about voast, trash guards r gods.
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,968Registered Users

    "Unprecedented" is a non-starter of an argument. 190 range T1 skirmishers are "unprecedented" too. There has simply not been a sniper unit in the game before.

    Jezzails are also countered by going wide because they have the same targeting flaws as artillery where several models waste their shot on a single target.

    It's a good example, thanks. There has been endless discussions on these forums about whether HE archers should get their range nerfed by 10 meters, endless, because of if the diff should be 10 or 20 meters up to waywatchers, or discussions whether it should be 10 or 20 meters down to other archers/crossbows. Because these things matter!
    So where are the endless threads about nerfing Elf archers?

    Also, as CA so far has done nothing about Elf archers, why should Jezzails be nerfed either?
    Just search the forums if you don't believe me. And that argument is just silly.
    yst said:

    Now you have a missile infantry unit that has 120 meters advantage over HE archers! Can you see the difference? Can you at least try?

    Oh pls, enough of the hyprocrisy, skinks with 70m range is called op meanwhile waywatch shooting happily at 190m. I mean it really is only ok if elves shooting 110-120m than others.

    We see these sort of nonsense all the time, even queek get rekt by tyrion time to time but no queek is op af. Meanwhile loremaster happily trading over $650 on lords. By now ppl should know if u heal, ure op unless ure playing elves. If u spells ure op, again unless ure playing elves.

    Kroak cant even be the greatest caster lol coz of elves. Grails cant be good coz of u know, elven cav. Jezz cant shoot far coz of helf archer LOL! skaven cant skirmish coz u know, shadow warriors any any elven skirmishers r the only skirmishers than can be in the game.

    Go ask these toxic grp whats the only balance unit in dlc they will tell u its ark lulz, same thing like they would tell u about voast, trash guards r gods.
    Not hypocrisy at all. Units should have strengths and weaknesses if they are well designed, and I'll start off by saying that I and most reasonable people I know agree that WW are indeed OP, and imho the main reason for that is that they are too self-sustained and have too few weaknesses. Lotus has suggested nerfs to them. People disagree how they should be nerfed and how matchups needs to be salvaged if they are, but in general people agree they are OP.

    Short range skirmishers usually have other strengths, like gutters have poison and autosnare and really high dps. I agree gutters without poison are kind of pointless for the record.

    Jezzails don't come designed with weaknesses in the same way as would be expected for a missile infantry unit with frickin 300 meters range. That's the whole point. Armor, silver shields, AP, best accuracy in the game, mobility, MD, longest range in the game, sparse formation and intermediate model count. They have everything except 360 for crying out loud.... it's a really poorly designed mp unit.
  • FudgerFudger Posts: 25Registered Users
    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    Green0 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    it really isn’t though, oh you brought wide build to counter mass ranged? Skaven brought flayers and storm vermin, unlucky.

    Build roulette is never a fun thing.

    Besides, currently Skaven can bring a bit of each style (say 2-3 jezails 1-3 flayers) and win vs most factions because it’s hard to bring a list that can counter both styles. Not to mention that Jezails made WLC obsolete because they’re better in every way, this should raise many red flags.
    Pretty much what Green0 says. Also do you realize how many lower tier unit you need to bring to kill something like hellpit inside a some meatshield? Lower tier unit, that is use for going wide, can't stand moral shock and have bad mass which makes flayers, doomwheel, hellpit, and rat ogre if properly able to kill countless by the very nature of cycle charging and morale shock. Also your lord/caster can not participate without risk due to how accurate jezzail ares at the moment.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 22,184Registered Users
    Fudger said:

    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    Green0 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    it really isn’t though, oh you brought wide build to counter mass ranged? Skaven brought flayers and storm vermin, unlucky.

    Build roulette is never a fun thing.

    Besides, currently Skaven can bring a bit of each style (say 2-3 jezails 1-3 flayers) and win vs most factions because it’s hard to bring a list that can counter both styles. Not to mention that Jezails made WLC obsolete because they’re better in every way, this should raise many red flags.
    Pretty much what Green0 says. Also do you realize how many lower tier unit you need to bring to kill something like hellpit inside a some meatshield? Lower tier unit, that is use for going wide, can't stand moral shock and have bad mass which makes flayers, doomwheel, hellpit, and rat ogre if properly able to kill countless by the very nature of cycle charging and morale shock. Also your lord/caster can not participate without risk due to how accurate jezzail ares at the moment.
    HPA is no argument for anything until its animations are fixed and it actually damages stuff reliably. You can tie the HPA down infinitely or force a bad trade by very basic spear units.

  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,564Registered Users
    I could see the Snipers going down to 280m range and I could see their armor being dropped, their Pavase gave them a 4+ Armor save in TT but I really don't see how it should protect them so well vs melee. I would drop their armor down into the 30-50 range and call it good.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,391Registered Users
    edited May 2019

    Theo91 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    except theres no real counter to jezzails though thats the issue, arty misses them due to spread foramtion, at least give them tight formation and -55m range
    You said in your post I originally responded to that the counter was going wide... which I would agree with. Maybe against skaven you just go super wide with unshielded units

    Risk if they bring storm vermin and slingers that you lose
    It's amazing that being outpicked is seemingly only a problem when Skaven can do it. Before you could practically predict to a T what a Skaven player would bring in a competitive match and counter accordingly since their options were so limited. Why is it so bad that Skaven can now keep people guessing too?
    coz they can keep people guessing without having OP stuff, theres no need for Jezzails to be this OP.
    I think it's clear "OP" in this context means "upsets the obnoxious flying caster lord meta".
    skv are broekn OP now
    Flying Caster Lords are broken OP to the extent that they warp the entire meta around them, so why's that not a problem to the extent that you categorically reject any changes to it, but Skaven somehow are?
    You know what lord I bring as empire when I'm against Skaven? Gelt. On Quicksilver. Because I can sit my ass out of range and juke the bright as day jezzail shots all day while supporting my army 100m outside the range of warpgale. Hell, even if I wanna drop FT its highly likely I can drop it on an area where you can't defend against it. The same thing can be said for lords like allarielle, morathi etc

    tldr - your argument that jezzails are OP/obnoxious because they counter flying lords is simply stupid, end of story.

    The real problem is that they hard counter foot lords/heroes, and do obnoxious amounts of damage to basically every target. Personally, I'm not in the camp of nerfing range. My take would be:

    -5 MD
    reduce accuracy to 1 on all except buboes(who, based on lore, should be some pretty epic marksmen)
    reduce ROF by 10-15%(as a starter)
    remove snipe from buboes, perhaps exchanging for hawkish precision.
    Post edited by Canuovea on
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 22,184Registered Users
    Not my experience. I have also actually seen necromancers on foot sidestepping Jezzails at 250-300 range.

  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Posts: 579Registered Users
    edited May 2019
    Green0 said:

    I think the real "crime" of Jezzails is the same as that of the now overnerfed Vindictive Glare, they allow countering mounted lords and heroes.

    As can be seen from other debates, some people are really attached to their uncatchable caster lords on fast flying mounts, so any tool that might spoil the fun is persecuted with utmost prejudice.

    Comment removed.

    About mounts, yeah there’s another thread about that go whine there, the issue with jezails is that currently they’re able to snipe FOOT characters and I know you want foot characters to be more meta so it only makes sense you approve of jezail nerf.

    Oh also, jezails currently don’t wven have a bad target to shoot at (except perhaps Zombies and Slaves), I know it sounda crazy but they’re cost effective even into silver shielded spearmen mostly due to shieldbreaker.
    I am torn on the foot sniping personally. I love foot lords and really like anything that helps them out but.......seems all you have to do is put your foot lord inside a unit and you have no problem. People should seek counters to a strategy before saying it deserves to be nerfed imo.

    If the devs tell me that as snipers they are intended to be able to be very effective against foot lords it would make sense.
    Similarly if they decide it shouldn't be as effective on a foot lord I would accept that too. I don't think its OP tho as long as the foot lord is able to hide behind/inside infantry to avoid the fire in most cases.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Posts: 579Registered Users

    -55m is a must nerf, than still needmore nerfs on top of them, going wide with cheap crap is a coutner sure, than the rest skaven army will dominate you coz you have no real units, thats not a realistic counter. They stupid OP

    I would like to second the importance of a range nerf. It's unprecedented for missile infantry, and the reason I think this will be game breaking in the long run is not the dps, but how it will impact the available strategies in many matchups. What it does is that it puts the opponent on a clock within a 600 meter diameter zone of influence. This is what artillery does, but jezzails are resilient to all traditional artillery counters. So, as long as range stays the way it is it severely limits the options available to the opponent in a way that no other unit in the game does. Maybe the ror cygor gets closest, or bone giant, but both of these has one preferred type of target, while jezz do ok vs any unit type and has pinpoint accuracy.
    "jezzails are resilient to all traditional artillery counters."
    That is very extreme. Have you actually checked how fast a 700 pts High elf bolt thrower on single fire mode can take out jezzails despite them costing 200 more points?
    I just checked and it is pretty fast.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 8,155Registered Users
    -55m -30 armour +0.8 colabaration, it would let them be strong but not OP.

    Theres no need or reason for them to have such obnoxious range.

    Rate of fire nerf is not good idea it will do nothing like it did nothing to waywatchers.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,391Registered Users

    -55m -30 armour +0.8 colabaration, it would let them be strong but not OP.

    Theres no need or reason for them to have such obnoxious range.

    Rate of fire nerf is not good idea it will do nothing like it did nothing to waywatchers.

    Waywatchers and Jezzails are completely different units, so comparing the two is pointless. Waywatchers fire 360 and are usually part of a super fluid strategy where they fire continuously. Jezzails are a tankier and more mobile artillery piece with less range and are basically a static unit, they need their frontline to hold long enough for them to do work+get value on the enemy approach. You cut down their ROF and suddenly the unit can no longer dish out as much hurt on your approach, nor can it deal as much damage as youre crushing the frontline, and once that frontline is gone, you're screwed.
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  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 2,208Registered Users
    10% rof is not really enough imo. If you wanna nerf them by cutting off their rof it must be something round 25%.
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 259Registered Users
    edited May 2019
    Wyvern2 said:



    Waywatchers and Jezzails are completely different units, so comparing the two is pointless. Waywatchers fire 360 and are usually part of a super fluid strategy where they fire continuously. Jezzails are a tankier and more mobile artillery piece with less range and are basically a static unit, they need their frontline to hold long enough for them to do work+get value on the enemy approach. You cut down their ROF and suddenly the unit can no longer dish out as much hurt on your approach, nor can it deal as much damage as youre crushing the frontline, and once that frontline is gone, you're screwed.

    wait what? less range?

    also jezzails are 200 gold cheaper, also skavens at least have some reliable means to hold the line for jezzails to do their work

    always compare unit to unit in terms of the full roster, not just blindly jezzails vs waywatchers

    also waywatchers probably, most likely will get nerfed again
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 8,155Registered Users
    edited May 2019
    Wyvern2 said:

    -55m -30 armour +0.8 colabaration, it would let them be strong but not OP.

    Theres no need or reason for them to have such obnoxious range.

    Rate of fire nerf is not good idea it will do nothing like it did nothing to waywatchers.

    Waywatchers and Jezzails are completely different units, so comparing the two is pointless. Waywatchers fire 360 and are usually part of a super fluid strategy where they fire continuously. Jezzails are a tankier and more mobile artillery piece with less range and are basically a static unit, they need their frontline to hold long enough for them to do work+get value on the enemy approach. You cut down their ROF and suddenly the unit can no longer dish out as much hurt on your approach, nor can it deal as much damage as youre crushing the frontline, and once that frontline is gone, you're screwed.
    So you're forced to approach them yeah? This is why it doesnt work, because you dont allow people to trade at range with skaven due to 300m range, rate of fire nerf is only good for rush build.

    Won't change the fact they will have stupid long range with no justification for it, how can peopel defend their range when they got same range as organ gun....


    I'm not comparing to WW btw im saying -1s reload did nothing to stop WW being OP which they are, same as it will do nothing at all to stop jezzails being OP.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 1,063Registered Users

    Theo91 said:

    Theo91 said:

    Fudger said:

    Overpower range unit is toxic for total war gameplay. It forces comps to go wide, but going wide doesn't do well versus elite units. Especially when monsters come into play.

    Playing devils advocate, isn’t that a good thing - having one strategy which has a counter and the counter has a counter
    except theres no real counter to jezzails though thats the issue, arty misses them due to spread foramtion, at least give them tight formation and -55m range
    You said in your post I originally responded to that the counter was going wide... which I would agree with. Maybe against skaven you just go super wide with unshielded units

    Risk if they bring storm vermin and slingers that you lose
    It's amazing that being outpicked is seemingly only a problem when Skaven can do it. Before you could practically predict to a T what a Skaven player would bring in a competitive match and counter accordingly since their options were so limited. Why is it so bad that Skaven can now keep people guessing too?
    It’s not, I think it’s good that they have lots of viable tactics
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 259Registered Users
    skavens keep people guessing? guessing only how many jezzails, rattling guns and doomflayers their army will have next battle
    not so much for guessing
  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Posts: 525Registered Users
    edited May 2019
    There are two ways you can nerf jezzails without touching their core mechanics.

    You can significantly refuce their ammunition.

    OR

    Significantly reduce their leadership so when you finally get units on them, they break.
  • angry_rat_loverangry_rat_lover Posts: 1,086Registered Users
    FerrousTarkus, Jezzails already have very, very low ammunition, jezzails are fine, they dont need to be nerfed, the only ones that are complaining are people who play elf factions
    Soon
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,875Registered Users

    There are two ways you can nerf jezzails without touching their core mechanics.

    You can significantly refuce their ammunition.

    OR

    Significantly reduce their leadership so when you finally get units on them, they break.

    Low ammo, whether on ancient salamanders or on jezzails, just isn't a fun fix. Low ammo is a way of saying "we don't want to give this unit weaknesses, so we're just gonna let it use all its ammo so it isn't OP even if it gets all it's shots off"

    that's the laziest way to balance. The best balancing allows for counterplay of the unit by both players, rather than just letting the skaven/lizardmen have to be smart about using their ammo.

    Not that jezzails lack any counterplay, but if they are too strong the thing is to give them more counters, not just make their payoff worse.
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