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Vampire Counts now worthless

cugexebudcugexebud Registered Users Posts: 32
Now with IoN upgraded max 4 I need to make sure every time I cast it there are exactly 4 units in the area that I want to heal, if I want to save some units, if I have more then that almost always the units I want to save don't get the healing...

They kept nerfing them till they finally made them completely worthless, if you want to get the VC experience just play with any other faction and don't get range ... many others have lore of death / shadows and lots of flying units, they just don't offer anything anymore and don't have range...

Comments

  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,786
    edited May 2019
    Range or lack thereof has nothing to do with VC flavor. Yes, the 8th edition rule book lacked range units, because they split the undead armies and gave the skeleton archers and catapaults to Tomb Kings, but previous editions prior to the VC/Tomb King split had ranged undead.

    The key for VC is that the army was undead. So long as you can create new undead (create zombie and skeleton units), its ok if healing isn't that great.

    That being said, it sounds like they over-nerfed healing.



  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    but they didin#t overnerf it. VC were abusing healign blob and now it's not anymore the case. Maybe VC need to actually play the game instead of just heal blob everything.
  • PancakesPancakes Registered Users Posts: 378
    You can still spam 20 stack armies for 200 upkeep by turn 10
  • vintagepurplevintagepurple Registered Users Posts: 800
    endur said:

    Range or lack thereof has nothing to do with VC flavor. Yes, the 8th edition rule book lacked range units, because they split the undead armies and gave the skeleton archers and catapaults to Tomb Kings, but previous editions prior to the VC/Tomb King split had ranged undead.

    The key for VC is that the army was undead. So long as you can create new undead (create zombie and skeleton units), its ok if healing isn't that great.

    That being said, it sounds like they over-nerfed healing.




    Yeah only 8th VC lacked range... wait no, the split happened more than 20 years ago, in 5th.
  • KlausTheKatKlausTheKat Registered Users Posts: 524
    I can't see how only being able heal 4 units at a time has broke one of the most powerful factions in the game.

    Access to more LL's than all other factions, access to the most powerful non LL's in the game (12 of them!) as well as the factionwide buffs that accompany them, access to the most damaging magic lores in the game, can still heal like crazy, free upkeep troops, crazy replenishment values, excellent cav and monsters, powerful air force, instant recruitment, +hero and +hero levels (factionwide) from a tier 3 growth building...

    But no. Now they are apparently "worthless"

    Meh.
  • cugexebudcugexebud Registered Users Posts: 32

    but they didin#t overnerf it. VC were abusing healign blob and now it's not anymore the case. Maybe VC need to actually play the game instead of just heal blob everything.


    VC you need to micro every unit because they lack range units, not like other factions where you can have half of the army archers, let them fire and still do a good job by the end of the battle ...

    Before mortis engine got nerfed, now IoN and Varghulfs (which was the only unit that actually did something), skeletons and zombies are crazy slow and get defeated in melee even by range units, if you have the bad luck to face a range heavy army they're probably going to crumble before they even get into melee. They also don't have any counter against large units so what do they have ... blood knights a lot of other factions have counters to them like demigryph knights, dragon princes, cold one riders, etc... they all are a match for blood knights and even if some won't defeat them alone for sure they do with range support each of this factions offer...

    Some of us bought game 1 only for the VC and now got nerffed so bad they became irrelevant... they should mention for every content they release that even though looks good and OP now we might decide to nerf them and take them away in some future patches ...

  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    Indeed. I suspect one of the first mods will see will be one that restores healing to be actually useful.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 4,999
    edited May 2019
    Are we talking MP or SP here? I mean in SP no faction is unviable, so it is a bit of a moot point. VCs have a lot of tasty campaign stuff too.

    In MP, well it is pretty huge. Can see why they wanted to stop cheesing but both reducing max targets and duration seems pretty harsh. VCs are a pretty versatile faction so they'll survive but think this'll hurt them for sure. Coast I'm not sure, they really need accuracy nerfing or something still I think, perhaps reduced MD on crabs.

    Edit, ymthink they should probably have done max targets first then gone from there, not duration as well.
  • SchusselSchussel Registered Users Posts: 775
    endur said:

    Range or lack thereof has nothing to do with VC flavor. Yes, the 8th edition rule book lacked range units, because they split the undead armies and gave the skeleton archers and catapaults to Tomb Kings, but previous editions prior to the VC/Tomb King split had ranged undead.

    The key for VC is that the army was undead. So long as you can create new undead (create zombie and skeleton units), its ok if healing isn't that great.

    That being said, it sounds like they over-nerfed healing.



    The split was in Edition 6 so long long before E8
  • ErathilErathil Registered Users Posts: 934
    cugexebud said:


    but they didin#t overnerf it. VC were abusing healign blob and now it's not anymore the case. Maybe VC need to actually play the game instead of just heal blob everything.


    VC you need to micro every unit because they lack range units, not like other factions where you can have half of the army archers, let them fire and still do a good job by the end of the battle ...

    Before mortis engine got nerfed, now IoN and Varghulfs (which was the only unit that actually did something), skeletons and zombies are crazy slow and get defeated in melee even by range units, if you have the bad luck to face a range heavy army they're probably going to crumble before they even get into melee. They also don't have any counter against large units so what do they have ... blood knights a lot of other factions have counters to them like demigryph knights, dragon princes, cold one riders, etc... they all are a match for blood knights and even if some won't defeat them alone for sure they do with range support each of this factions offer...

    Some of us bought game 1 only for the VC and now got nerffed so bad they became irrelevant... they should mention for every content they release that even though looks good and OP now we might decide to nerf them and take them away in some future patches ...

    The thing is, Vampire Counts are only slow if you're playing an army built entirely around heavy infantry (which, in turn, plays well into the healing meta).

    You have tons of fast disruption options, especially felbats, to mess with ranged units. Blood Knights are good heavy cavalry, but you also have cheaper, faster Black Knights to help you with flanks, and expendable Dire Wolfs to flank, harass, and harry.

    They also have possibly the best air force in game. Vargiests are amazing, especially if you can use them to flank-charge enemies engaged with your skeletons or grave guard, and especially if you use Danse Macarbe on them as they charge.

    The Invocation of Nehek nerf hurts, but it does sort of give you more incentive to use the other excellent spells in the Lore of Vampires. Wind of Death can rack up a three digit kill count, Curse of Years can debuff an entire front-line, and Danse Macarbe is an excellent buff that helps your comparatively slow units engage and kick-ass.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,231
    cugexebud said:

    Now with IoN upgraded max 4 I need to make sure every time I cast it there are exactly 4 units in the area that I want to heal, if I want to save some units, if I have more then that almost always the units I want to save don't get the healing...

    They kept nerfing them till they finally made them completely worthless, if you want to get the VC experience just play with any other faction and don't get range ... many others have lore of death / shadows and lots of flying units, they just don't offer anything anymore and don't have range...

    Over react much?

    You can single target it the spell without overcasting you know. You can even bring more than one caster to avoid the cooldowns.

    Also, they will probably patch in intelligent healing that goes for the most damaged units ASAP.

    They are not ruining your vampires. And hell, even without IoN you have several tools for mass healing and Vampires are still powerful as all get out.

    You need to calm down man. Your vampires are still OP, just not as OP as they were a couple days ago - and that's probably due to an "oops" moment where some unpaid intern that's working on things while everyone else does 3K forgot to make it prefer the most wounded targets.
  • DaGangsterDaGangster Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,335
    Yeah I was not to happy about the change either, but I'm more of a role-player anyway never mass healed after a battle, always thought that was a bit cheesy.

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  • cugexebudcugexebud Registered Users Posts: 32

    I can't see how only being able heal 4 units at a time has broke one of the most powerful factions in the game.

    Access to more LL's than all other factions, access to the most powerful non LL's in the game (12 of them!) as well as the factionwide buffs that accompany them, access to the most damaging magic lores in the game, can still heal like crazy, free upkeep troops, crazy replenishment values, excellent cav and monsters, powerful air force, instant recruitment, +hero and +hero levels (factionwide) from a tier 3 growth building...

    But no. Now they are apparently "worthless"

    Meh.

    Yeah all that is worth nothing if you get spammed with skirmishers or any other range units... (have you won any mp match against DE or HE with them lately ? ), I haven't even seen anyone picking them for mp anymore.The AI guess you can always cheese with lots of armies or find something ... but that is what the hole faction has become one that needs to cheese just to win a battle...

    "excellent cav and monsters, powerful air force" this is not a bonus for them many other factions have it, " instant recruitment" Coast has it as well + very strong range

    The second a lord gets into DE / HE range they start crumbling (they move slow like crazy if not mounted), now with the new skaven range units they barely make it to melee.

    I guess if you think IoN is OP ok nerf it but they need something else (as it's all the had as an advantage) give them range or if not they defiantly need to counter range a lot better, army wide missile resistance, better shields, faster units then the rest (current cavalry does not compete with what other factions have considering when you manage to get them in melee they already take a few shots).
    In mp everyone knows what to do if you pick them just go for skirmisher or heavy range army, you have no choice but to take all the hits.



  • GrandChamp89GrandChamp89 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,557
    OP is not lying.

    Like trying to take a siege (you got no missile so you have to rush) you heal your units and it starts to heal your zombies instead of your graveguards lol. This update is pretty messed up.
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  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,244
    The healing needs to not be random if it’s going to limited on the number of targets. The 4 most wounded, the 4 closest to the caster, or the four closest to the originally targeted unit, or some other predictable measure needs to be implemented.

    I don’t think the VC are currently worthless. I do think the healing nerf was too severe. 20% of your army if you have a full stack seems like overkill to me.

    Overkill or not.....there is NO good reason to have the four healed targets be random. That’s just bad design which actually takes strategic decision making away from the game.

    I’d like to see the number of targets raised to 6 or 7 in an ideal world. They can keep the duration and Wind costs nerf in place...but more than anything else....they really should make 4 targets determined by some type of predictable and controllable variable.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,899
    They only needed to nerf healing on single entities and expensive units.

    Nehek is way too weak on infantry, especially chaff now.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,596
    Personally I would have preferred if the healing effect got diluted if you had more than x number of units in the AOE.
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  • sieahsieah Registered Users Posts: 985
    Yet another change requested by the Multuiplayer "community", useless request, as usual with this "community".
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,083
    The healing spells had got ruined for quite a while thanks to the complains of the multiplayer players, first an nonsensical healing cap and now this, but if you wanted to spread the word then maybe you should had opened that discussion in the balancing or the multiplayer sub-forum.
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    Tayvar said:

    The healing spells had got ruined for quite a while thanks to the complains of the multiplayer players, first an nonsensical healing cap and now this, but if you wanted to spread the word then maybe you should had opened that discussion in the balancing or the multiplayer sub-forum.

    Why didn't they limit the change to multiplayer then?
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,083

    Tayvar said:

    The healing spells had got ruined for quite a while thanks to the complains of the multiplayer players, first an nonsensical healing cap and now this, but if you wanted to spread the word then maybe you should had opened that discussion in the balancing or the multiplayer sub-forum.

    Why didn't they limit the change to multiplayer then?
    Because it's spells and not units, CA had limit some units from the multiplayer, thankfully.
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,546
    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    The healing spells had got ruined for quite a while thanks to the complains of the multiplayer players, first an nonsensical healing cap and now this, but if you wanted to spread the word then maybe you should had opened that discussion in the balancing or the multiplayer sub-forum.

    Why didn't they limit the change to multiplayer then?
    Because it's spells and not units, CA had limit some units from the multiplayer, thankfully.
    Right, which is all well and good, but my point is I'm not sure why singleplayer has to take the demands of multiplayer. If multiplayer wants something, give it to multiplayer.
  • Arthas_MenethilArthas_Menethil Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,462

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    The healing spells had got ruined for quite a while thanks to the complains of the multiplayer players, first an nonsensical healing cap and now this, but if you wanted to spread the word then maybe you should had opened that discussion in the balancing or the multiplayer sub-forum.

    Why didn't they limit the change to multiplayer then?
    Because it's spells and not units, CA had limit some units from the multiplayer, thankfully.
    Right, which is all well and good, but my point is I'm not sure why singleplayer has to take the demands of multiplayer. If multiplayer wants something, give it to multiplayer.
    MP does have to pay for their items and spells while campaign uses skill points.
    Heal Cap's pretty much a bit of everyone given that it came with more sources of healing from the Grim and the Grave.
    So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?

  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,201
    Schussel said:

    endur said:

    Range or lack thereof has nothing to do with VC flavor. Yes, the 8th edition rule book lacked range units, because they split the undead armies and gave the skeleton archers and catapaults to Tomb Kings, but previous editions prior to the VC/Tomb King split had ranged undead.

    The key for VC is that the army was undead. So long as you can create new undead (create zombie and skeleton units), its ok if healing isn't that great.

    That being said, it sounds like they over-nerfed healing.



    The split was in Edition 6 so long long before E8
    5th Edition. :)

    Vampire Counts never had ranged units, their first army book was 5th Edition, before that it was the Undead army book, and basically it was a catchall for anything undead. The ranged contingent didn't return until 6th Edition with the Tomb Kings book, but it was 5th that saw the change to Vampire Counts.

    Warhammer did a lot of developing in the early days. There were quite a few army divides as mishmashed armies of generic factions were divided into more stylized individuals. What was essentially the humans became Bretonnia, Kislev, and the Empire, Chaos became their three components. Go even further back, and you can see the utterly generic roots of the setting. Games Workshop truly did start from an overwhelmingly generic setting.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Registered Users Posts: 1,799
    edited May 2019
    Won't say Vampire Counts are worthless (since it affects mostly battle dimension and Vampires have lots of stuff for campaign now), but IoN became kinda bad. Probably worst spell among Lore of Vampires spells for Campaign. But even with changes, I would say that sometimes it still may be needed (at least overcasted version so +1 to upgrade it is needed) with taking crumbling into account and general unique niche for healing/resurrection.


    @psychoak
    I agree that separation was in 5th edition, but 6th edition did have Ranged units for Bloodlines (Von Carstein/Blood Dragons) and Storm of Chaos supplement (also 6th edition, I guess) included Ranged units for Counts.
    With that said, I don't argue for ranged units on a daily basis. Imo, they are needed only to add flavor to certain bloodlines, so probably should be restricted in any case (but may be less restricted, than in current state).

    I do think though, that current changes to Raise Dead and IoN hits flavor of Counts more, than they should in battle aspect and if not cheese tactics player could pull vs AI, Raise Dead battlemarks, Bloodline factionwide buffs (some of which are a bit OP) and no Upkeep for Zombies/Skeletons (Skeletons also a bit OP), I would say Vampire Counts would be in bad spot in terms of flavor and being interesting as result.

    With that said, I was the one who originally argued for unit cap for all Vampire healing AoE (and IoN specifically), even though not so severe one (6-8 units - 30m or increasing AoE to 40m with 8-10 units and WoM cost increase). Plus I argued for less effecient healing for Large (around -25%) and -1 WoM for single target IoN.
    But I've also suggested that current upgrades (2d for LLs and 3d for Generic, where you get WoM cost decrease) and Loremaster upgrade, instead of WoM decrease should provide increase of AoE to 60m (with 12-14 units max and 16 WoM cost) and no negative effects for Large, while Loremaster should delete unit cap in general.
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