Give Doomfire Warlocks chillwind instead of doombolt

Black_Phillip · June 2019

I saw someone make the suggestion in discord. I would like skirmish mode to be taken out of MP for skirmish cav only (not skirmish infantry) but I know that will never happen, so the next best thing is giving Doomfire Warlocks chillwind. With the lack of good ranged vs skirmish cav it would help DE but not by too much because the Warlocks are still expensive and skirmish cav is a lot cheaper. I just don't like the idea of one side having to micro a unit so much to fight against another unit that's pretty much on autopilot. This would make things more even for DE when facing things like Skeleton Horse Archers or Glade Rider Hagbane Tips. I'm not sure what other factions have as much trouble against skirmish cav as DE do but I would be interested in hearing suggestions for those factions as well.

Lotus_Moon · June 2019

Yep it will make them decent again and would help in the WE match-up.

Green0 · June 2019

Chillwind can be a better spell than Doombolt although the ability for DE to chain 2-3 Doombolts in a short amount of time can be nasty in lord sniping/nuking strategies. I see this change as an improvement of balancing.

glosskilos · June 2019

Better yet give it to slaaneshs harvesters instead of soul stealer

Lotus_Moon · June 2019

glosskilos said:
Better yet give it to slaaneshs harvesters instead of soul stealer

No that be a massive nerf, doomfire warlocks are not in good spot currently so this should be a bit of a buff that they need.

Green0 · June 2019

Slaanesh's Harvesters are in a good spot currently. They are a bit OP but not any more than Companions of Quenelles, Fireborn or Royal Altdorf Griphites. DE need them to contest cav game due to their -MA spell and Soul Stealer and Poison attacks. Without these attributes DE would get abused hard by HE, Empire, maybe even Beastmen.

Wyvern2 · June 2019

Maybe Melkoths miasma would be better than chillwind?

Green0 said:
Slaanesh's Harvesters are in a good spot currently. They are a bit OP but not any more than Companions of Quenelles, Fireborn or Royal Altdorf Griphites. DE need them to contest cav game due to their -MA spell and Soul Stealer and Poison attacks. Without these attributes DE would get abused hard by HE, Empire, maybe even Beastmen.

I don't buy that at all. DE have always been able to tango in the cav game, and are still more than capable of doing so without doomfire warlocks/harvesters, a bound hex or two isn't changing that, especially when you're effectively giving up a CoK unit to get warlocks. Might as well say empire would get abused by HE and Dark Elves if they lost the gryphites.

Green0 · June 2019

Wyvern2 said:
Maybe Melkoths miasma would be better than chillwind?

Green0 said:
Slaanesh's Harvesters are in a good spot currently. They are a bit OP but not any more than Companions of Quenelles, Fireborn or Royal Altdorf Griphites. DE need them to contest cav game due to their -MA spell and Soul Stealer and Poison attacks. Without these attributes DE would get abused hard by HE, Empire, maybe even Beastmen.
I don't buy that at all. DE have always been able to tango in the cav game, and are still more than capable of doing so without doomfire warlocks/harvesters, a bound hex or two isn't changing that, especially when you're effectively giving up a CoK unit to get warlocks. Might as well say empire would get abused by HE and Dark Elves if they lost the gryphites.

the problem is that DE have next to no tools to contest truly elite cavalry units, it's true that COK are AP/AL but they have still ~4000 HP (one of the lowest HP cavs in the game) and only 90 armor. I have never tested vs DP but I wouldn't be surprised if they lose and are not super cost-effective even when accounting for their lower cost. Their stats are pretty low to be honest (especially MD), they are a great mid-tier cav don't get me wrong but again, a) Warlocks (neither variant) are overperforming in my opinion, b) DE lack an elite cav option worth of that name. Vs Horned Ones I tested it recently and COK lose very badly in spite of being only (at the time of testing) 400g less expensive AND being more specialized than the HO. Vs regular Demis I would like to test it, I think this is one of the matchups where they can be more cost-effective since Demis pay A LOT of their cost for that 125 armor. That being said, if Empire wants to win a blob fight, I feel that they have more tools, especially with Warrior Priests. Vs Bretonnia, I have been told by a reputable source (forget who now but it was reputable

) that Grail Knights smash COK very badly and this isn't very surprising again due to only 90 armor and low HP of the COK.

The fact that DE can play the skirmish game very well is very true, however I find they tend to run out of beef vs very elite cav armies IF they don't use their support tools (Morathi aura, Word of Pain, Soul Stealer...)

Oh also, it’s not the fact that Warlocks are OP or not, it’s just that they synergize so well with COK and actually allow you to threaten cav fights. If Warlocks weren’t present, DE would have a 66 speed cav, a bit like Reiksguard, sure with AP/AL and all but without the crazy Cannons, magic and Priest support Empire has for their cav.

Parmigiano · June 2019

-100g for the Warlocks is what it should be, that would cause them to be competing evenly with Dark Riders.

Adding Chillwind is an interesting way of allowing them to remain overpriced, but I would rather they buff Doombolt than that. Some specific units are more of less immune to it compared to others.

They can do +50 on the Harvesters at the same time, they shouldn't be cheaper than Wild Rider RoR.

Lotus_Moon · June 2019

Parmigiano said:
-100g for the Warlocks is what it should be, that would cause them to be competing evenly with Dark Riders.

Adding Chillwind is an interesting way of allowing them to remain overpriced, but I would rather they buff Doombolt than that. Some specific units are more of less immune to it compared to others.

They can do +50 on the Harvesters at the same time, they shouldn't be cheaper than Wild Rider RoR.

But that change won't help in bad match-up at all, while chillwind change would.

Loupi_ · June 2019

Yep the main reason I suggested chillwind was to help DE in their matchup vs WE, which is currently a bit WE favoured. Chillwind would help them a lot to not only counter-skirmish against glade riders, but also to shut down foot archers.

Secondly doombolt is a pretty mediocre spell.

Energyzed · June 2019

Doomfire Warlocks could get a +1MA and MD buff. From my point of view that is good enough.
On regards DE having problems at dealing with skirmish cav that outranges theirs, i see no problem there. DE are probably the most well rounded faction of game 2 so its nice they have "trouble" dealing with that type of unit. Consider bringing 2 dark riders with shield instead of doomfire warlocks on those matches.

Lotus_Moon · June 2019

Energyzed said:
Doomfire Warlocks could get a +1MA and MD buff. From my point of view that is good enough.
On regards DE having problems at dealing with skirmish cav that outranges theirs, i see no problem there. DE are probably the most well rounded faction of game 2 so its nice they have "trouble" dealing with that type of unit. Consider bringing 2 dark riders with shield instead of doomfire warlocks on those matches.

That be LZM for sure now with the DLC, but DE witll still have problems dealing with ranged units, just have a way to fight missile cav.

Dark Riders are in need of a slight buff too.

keroro7 · June 2019

first I am glad somebody cares about doom fire over nerf.
In fact, I use doom fire ror only in very limited matchups, and that is better.
but i'm not sure, chill wind has a lot of ways to mobilize already.

i.e)
if I do game against LZ
I don't pick doom fire at all why my opponent don't get skink skirmisher then it was wasted my cost.
using chill wind and get them in my case.

so... doom fire may need help or maybe not. but if do there is another better way.

Sarmatians · June 2019

Hagbanes getting magic damage back is what made mass Warlocks unappealing in that matchup. RoR Warlocks is still worth bringing I guess, as they are in almost all matchups.

I really question the logic of "solving" it by having Dark Elves bring more Warlocks.

Loupi_ · June 2019

Sarmatians said:
Hagbanes getting magic damage back is what made mass Warlocks unappealing in that matchup. RoR Warlocks is still worth bringing I guess, as they are in almost all matchups.

I really question the logic of "solving" it by having Dark Elves bring more Warlocks.

It's so they can slow down hagbanes while dark riders catch them, then follow up with warlocks.

or if you bring them without dark riders vs WE you at least get the chance to catch them with chill wind.

Sarmatians · June 2019

And if WE players bring Glade Guard Hagbanes which have protection in front?

You would be paying premium for an approach that might work in one instance but would fail in most other instances. It wouldn't be worth the risk in practice most of the time.

Pussy_Warrior · June 2019

i would rather see a cost reduction then a chill wind, they r in a bad spot,but i think all DE roster is not in a good spot either, specially hydra or the fact that if u rank up bleakswords to 650 they r actually better then corsairs, or the over priced shades or the dual weapon useless one, the missing of elite heavy cav etc etc.
Is hard to find a MU where u give up COK for a warlock specially when the warlock is 200 more expensive, in the other hand i think harvesters r in the right spot for 1400.

Loupi_ · June 2019

Sarmatians said:
And if WE players bring Glade Guard Hagbanes which have protection in front?

You would be paying premium for an approach that might work in one instance but would fail in most other instances. It wouldn't be worth the risk in practice most of the time.

That's the point of the game though, you calculate risks and try to outplay opponent, sometimes you win sometimes you don't. At least with chillwind the risk would be a bit lower.

Lotus_Moon · June 2019

Sarmatians said:
And if WE players bring Glade Guard Hagbanes which have protection in front?

You would be paying premium for an approach that might work in one instance but would fail in most other instances. It wouldn't be worth the risk in practice most of the time.

Chillwind is also a displacing tool, it can work vs non missile cav also.

Parmigiano · June 2019

Lotus_Moon said:

Parmigiano said:
-100g for the Warlocks is what it should be, that would cause them to be competing evenly with Dark Riders.

Adding Chillwind is an interesting way of allowing them to remain overpriced, but I would rather they buff Doombolt than that. Some specific units are more of less immune to it compared to others.

They can do +50 on the Harvesters at the same time, they shouldn't be cheaper than Wild Rider RoR.
But that change won't help in bad match-up at all, while chillwind change would.

I see it is potentially problematic for gameplay to be spamming Chillwind from Warlocks, this really highlights the greater issue of the fact that Chillwind should actually be worth it to cast as a spell.

-1 wind of magic for Chillwind, + duration increase of 10 seconds.

Then for Warlocks -50.

eumaies · June 2019

Chillwind is not worth casting as a spell? It's one of the best spells in the game...

Lotus_Moon · June 2019

eumaies said:
Chillwind is not worth casting as a spell? It's one of the best spells in the game...

Yeah its not, and its not one of the best spells in the game, its not even one of the best spells in that lore

1) soul steeler
2) word of pain
3) Power of darkness
4) chillwind
5) bladewind
6) doombolt

Considering lore of dark is not close to being best lore in the game, chillwind is rather average spell at most.

eumaies · June 2019

Lotus_Moon said:

eumaies said:
Chillwind is not worth casting as a spell? It's one of the best spells in the game...
Yeah its not, and its not one of the best spells in the game, its not even one of the best spells in that lore

1) soul steeler
2) word of pain
3) Power of darkness
4) chillwind
5) bladewind
6) doombolt

Considering lore of dark is not close to being best lore in the game, chillwind is rather average spell at most.

Whatever man. Chillwind is a very good spell is my point. Spare me your tier lists.

AWizard_Lizard · June 2019

I don't get it, chillwind is great, am I the only one who uses it with malekith's lizards of doom (him and some COK) to hunt down enemy cav and whatnot?

Lotus_Moon · June 2019

eumaies said:

Lotus_Moon said:

eumaies said:
Chillwind is not worth casting as a spell? It's one of the best spells in the game...
Yeah its not, and its not one of the best spells in the game, its not even one of the best spells in that lore

1) soul steeler
2) word of pain
3) Power of darkness
4) chillwind
5) bladewind
6) doombolt

Considering lore of dark is not close to being best lore in the game, chillwind is rather average spell at most.
Whatever man. Chillwind is a very good spell is my point. Spare me your tier lists.

its decent

Witchblade · June 2019

Doomfire warlocks should thematically kinda have doombolt. If you want to cast chillwind, take a Dark caster.

eumaies · June 2019

Witchblade said:
Doomfire warlocks should thematically kinda have doombolt. If you want to cast chillwind, take a Dark caster.

Though by that logic maybe they should have doom and darkness

Would actually be pretty cool on a cav unit.

Pippington · June 2019

And be mounted on doom flayers.

another505 · June 2019

Bound spell with doom rockets

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Give Doomfire Warlocks chillwind instead of doombolt

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