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Azure Dragon, Black Tortoise, White Tiger, Vermillion Bird and the Yellow Dragon.

Levi_fowl27Levi_fowl27 Posts: 80Registered Users
The Four Symbols, are four mythological creatures appearing among the Chinese constellations along the ecliptic, and viewed as the guardians of the four cardinal directions.

They are the Azure Dragon of the East, the Vermilion Bird of the South, the White Tiger of the West, and the Black Tortoise(or Black Warrior) of the North.
According to the archaeological evidence, the concept of the Four Symbols may have existed as early as China’s Neolithic period (some 6,000 years ago).


Azure Dragon corresponds to the season of spring. Although Chinese dragons are commonly associated with water, the Azure Dragon is the exception, as its element is wood.




The White Tiger corresponds to the season of autumn. The White Tiger’s element is metal, and it was held to be the God of War.




The Black Tortoise corresponds to the season of winter. The element of the Black Tortoise is water, and this mythological creature is commonly associated with longevity and wisdom.




The Vermilion Bird corresponds to the season of summer. Interestingly, the Vermillion Bird has been considered to be identical to the phoenix.




During the Han Dynasty the "Wu Xin" School of thought gained predominance to the point that the Thinkers of the time wanted to explain everything through the "Wu Xin", thus arose the need for a fifth creature associated with Earth.

From this need was born the Fifth Beast, The Yellow Dragon of the Center.


The Yellow Dragon corresponds to the changing of the seasons.The element of the Yellow Dragon is earth and he is the zoomorphic incarnation of the Yellow Emperor, and is the center of the universe in Chinese religion and mythology.




With The Azure Dragon of the East represents Wood, the Vermilion Bird of the South represents Fire, the White Tiger of the West represents Metal, the Black Tortoise of the North represents Water and the Yellow Dragon of the Center represents Earth, the "Five Phases"of the Wu Xing are complete.


Well, in game we have the Azure Dragon and the Yellow Dragon...


The Azure Dragon Unit corresponds perfectly to the Azure Dragon.

The Yellow Dragon Unit are metal not earth... Just give her a horse. And boom, perfectly corresponds Yellow Dragon Unit to the Yellow Dragon.



And for the others?

The Withe Tiger Unit... Maybe a Dual Sword Medium Infantry?(Remembering that the White Tiger is of the metal element.)

The Black Tortoise Unit... A Big Armoured War Wagon With Four Crossbowmen Inside.(Remembering that the Black Tortoise is of the water element.)

The Vermilion Bird Unit... A Fast Shock Chariot.(Remembering that the Vermilion Bird is of the fire element.)




What do you think of this? Do you think the other creatures deserve their own respective units?

What kind of Units do you think fit best with each Creature?



Comments

  • mitthrawnuruodomitthrawnuruodo Junior Member Posts: 1,645Registered Users
    Well I was working on a Vermilion Dragon heavy shock cavalry because of the same reason, but decided to call it Iron Lancers because I wanted to make it part of the imperial roster and it seemed thematically more suited. Perhaps I should call it Vermilion lancers instead.

    There is a Rapid Tiger infantry that you can recruit as Yuan Shu which is pretty much a shock assault infantry. But it should be easy to mod in a dual sword infantry. It is interesting. Perhaps they can have the "arrow deflect" ability of Pearl Dragons. Yes. I look forward to the weekend.
  • DerpmaidenDerpmaiden Posts: 94Registered Users
    Do you guys find the azure dragon rather weak? They are a hybrid unit that doesn't deal enough range damage to justify the reduction in melee performance. The rather weird spear/arrow formation doesn't help either as it leave them static.
  • mitthrawnuruodomitthrawnuruodo Junior Member Posts: 1,645Registered Users
    edited June 13

    White Tigers (coming soon)

    Partial-iron Lamellar Armor.
    2 X Elite Jian Swords.
    Very high melee evasion (75), since they do not have shields.
    Arrow deflection aka ranged evasion (50).
    Bandanas instead of helmets, to give that master swordsman feel.
    Post edited by mitthrawnuruodo on
  • BreadboxBreadbox Posts: 780Registered Users
    Cool post but absolutely not, I don’t know why Westerners romanticise the exotic mystical elements of foreign culture so goddamn much. Where the natives see them for they are, the foreigners seems to vastly overestimate its prominence to the point that they are misused.

    The WuXing framework and technicolored dragons are enough hamfisting imo.
  • HYLeeHYLee Posts: 20Registered Users
    edited June 13
    actually, four symbols were originated from YiQin, a well recognized historic book, and the five elements concept was also first introduced by this book.

    Later, Chinese friction likes to merge four symbols with five elements.
    We usually use Kirin/Qili, to add up to five (yellow dragon sounds like a duplication), not the one from monster hunter btw.
    Kirin also gains massive appearance in interior decoriation and furniture design.


    https://images.app.goo.gl/ZhvnpnHifp7ZtAVP7
    https://images.app.goo.gl/BPyaHLNT6TrV43mj7
  • Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Posts: 2,386Registered Users
    They seem pretty cool, wouldn't mind seeing them translated into the game as unique units.
  • Levi_fowl27Levi_fowl27 Posts: 80Registered Users

    Do you guys find the azure dragon rather weak? They are a hybrid unit that doesn't deal enough range damage to justify the reduction in melee performance. The rather weird spear/arrow formation doesn't help either as it leave them static.

    I do not think he's weak.
    He just has his niche.
    With them together from regular ranged units, you can compromise the rest of your army, without fear that a charge of enemy cavalry will destroy your units, without losing much ranged damage.


    White Tigers (coming soon)

    Partial-iron Lamellar Armor.
    2 X Elite Jian Swords.
    Very high melee evasion (75), since they do not have shields.
    Arrow deflection aka ranged evasion (50).
    Bandanas instead of helmets, to give that master swordsman feel.

    I loved it!
    The card was very beautiful, and the bandanas were a very nice touch.

    To complete:

    High moral (64).
    High HP (72k).
    Average Charge bonus (130).
    Very High Melee Attack rate (40).
    Low Base Damage (15).
    Low Penetrating Damage (7).

    And here comes the trick...
    And if instead of a Very High Melee Evasion (75) they had:

    Average Melee Evasion (40).
    Average Melee Evasion - Shield (35).
    Average Armor Base (40).
    Average Armor - Shield (35).
    Average Ranged Block Chance (50).
    Low speed (30). But with a higher charge speed (50).

    The White Tigers use their two swords both offensively and defensively at the same time.
    This makes them the true Gods of War in a front-front battle.
    However, the great focus on using their swords in a coordinated way makes them less aware of their environment than such skilled warriors should be.
    Because of this they are quite vulnerable to lateral attacks, making them suffer greatly when flanked.

    What do you think?

    Breadbox said:

    Cool post but absolutely not, I don’t know why Westerners romanticise the exotic mystical elements of foreign culture so goddamn much. Where the natives see them for they are, the foreigners seems to vastly overestimate its prominence to the point that they are misused.

    The WuXing framework and technicolored dragons are enough hamfisting imo.

    I think that romanticizing(or demonizing) other exotic mystical elements of foreign culture is something inherent in humans.
    In fact we romanticized our own.
    After all, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is the romanticizing of a troubled period of Chinese history.
    I have not lived with the Chinese Culture, I will never see their myths and beliefs in the same way as a Chinese, obviously there will be some problems of understanding.

    Having said that, well ...
    How, you see them?
    How prominent are they really?
    How common are their representations?

    Because in the places I saw they always emphasized their importance in Eastern Culture... Of course most likely the material I read was written by Westerners...
    Just to clarify these questions are genuine (not mocking or offensive), I was curious about your perspective.

    I had a Literature Teacher who always said:

    "Every point of view is the view of a point."


    I'm just wondering more about your point.


    HYLee said:

    actually, four symbols were originated from YiQin, a well recognized historic book, and the five elements concept was also first introduced by this book.

    Later, Chinese friction likes to merge four symbols with five elements.
    We usually use Kirin/Qili, to add up to five (yellow dragon sounds like a duplication), not the one from monster hunter btw.
    Kirin also gains massive appearance in interior decoriation and furniture design.


    https://images.app.goo.gl/ZhvnpnHifp7ZtAVP7
    https://images.app.goo.gl/BPyaHLNT6TrV43mj7


    I searched for this book and found nothing, can you send me a link please?

    About the Four Symbols, from what I saw the concept of them is very old. Having been found archaeological evidence dating back 6000 years... But the internet is the internet...
    Or maybe even though their concept is quite old they themselves have only taken their present forms later.
    While Wu Xing is quite posterior... I think the first book on Wu Xing was written during the Warring States period (This is the book YiQin?).
    I did not know that Qilin was seen like this... That's pretty cool.
    But I find it rather wrong to use such a peaceful and benevolent creature in a game called "Total War."
    I know they are quite powerful and can be destructive in defense of the innocent but personally I think they do not fit the scenario.
  • johnsongjohnsong Posts: 33Registered Users

    White Tigers (coming soon)

    Partial-iron Lamellar Armor.
    2 X Elite Jian Swords.
    Very high melee evasion (75), since they do not have shields.
    Arrow deflection aka ranged evasion (50).
    Bandanas instead of helmets, to give that master swordsman feel.


    I love it.

    For the Black Tortoise Unit maybe a heavily armored spear and shield unit that doesn't give out much damage but can take a huge beating without breaking.
  • HYLeeHYLee Posts: 20Registered Users
    edited June 14
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching
    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/易经

    in Chinese, it should be 易經. In wikipedia, it is translated to "I Ching"
    One of the "Four Books, Five Classics", core studies of Confucianism, which was promoted in Early period of Han Dynasty.

    And Confucius was born in "Spring and Autumn Period", just before "Warring state period".
  • BreadboxBreadbox Posts: 780Registered Users


    Breadbox said:

    Cool post but absolutely not, I don’t know why Westerners romanticise the exotic mystical elements of foreign culture so goddamn much. Where the natives see them for they are, the foreigners seems to vastly overestimate its prominence to the point that they are misused.

    The WuXing framework and technicolored dragons are enough hamfisting imo.

    I think that romanticizing(or demonizing) other exotic mystical elements of foreign culture is something inherent in humans.
    In fact we romanticized our own.
    After all, The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is the romanticizing of a troubled period of Chinese history.
    I have not lived with the Chinese Culture, I will never see their myths and beliefs in the same way as a Chinese, obviously there will be some problems of understanding.

    Having said that, well ...
    How, you see them?
    How prominent are they really?
    How common are their representations?

    Because in the places I saw they always emphasized their importance in Eastern Culture... Of course most likely the material I read was written by Westerners...
    Just to clarify these questions are genuine (not mocking or offensive), I was curious about your perspective.

    I had a Literature Teacher who always said:

    "Every point of view is the view of a point."


    I'm just wondering more about your point.
    It's actually fairly simple, there are plenty of historical unit names that made an appearence in the Record of the Three Kingdoms, most of them sensible and grounded in reality, naming after mythical beast is almost never done. They are typically named after the region that they are recruited from or a description of what they are famous for(ex:Assualt Battalions/Camp Crushers), there are fancy ones too.

    For example, Imperial Guards throughout Chinese History are usually called 'Feathered Forest" 羽林 or "Rapid as Tiger" , but for whatever reason, Imperial guards are called "Defenders of Heavens" ingame.
    Imagine playing Rome 2 and have everyother units named after random mythical beasts or Greek/Roman deities instead of established historical names. Or worse, Medieval Total War where unit names are shoehorned biblical symbolism/references, eyebrow raising at best, cringeworthy at worst.

    It is just painfully obvious that technicoloured gemstone dragons are names made up to sound stereotypically exotic to those who had not read Chinese history.
  • Levi_fowl27Levi_fowl27 Posts: 80Registered Users
    edited June 14
    HYLee said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching
    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/易经

    in Chinese, it should be 易經. In wikipedia, it is translated to "I Ching"
    One of the "Four Books, Five Classics", core studies of Confucianism, which was promoted in Early period of Han Dynasty.

    And Confucius was born in "Spring and Autumn Period", just before "Warring state period".

    Ok, thank you.
    I read the text and found it very interesting.
    I will read more about it in the weekend.
    Breadbox said:

    It's actually fairly simple, there are plenty of historical unit names that made an appearence in the Record of the Three Kingdoms, most of them sensible and grounded in reality, naming after mythical beast is almost never done. They are typically named after the region that they are recruited from or a description of what they are famous for(ex:Assualt Battalions/Camp Crushers), there are fancy ones too.

    For example, Imperial Guards throughout Chinese History are usually called 'Feathered Forest" 羽林 or "Rapid as Tiger" , but for whatever reason, Imperial guards are called "Defenders of Heavens" ingame.
    Imagine playing Rome 2 and have everyother units named after random mythical beasts or Greek/Roman deities instead of established historical names. Or worse, Medieval Total War where unit names are shoehorned biblical symbolism/references, eyebrow raising at best, cringeworthy at worst.

    It is just painfully obvious that technicoloured gemstone dragons are names made up to sound stereotypically exotic to those who had not read Chinese history.




    Now I understand what you mean and honestly now I agree with you.

    I do not think inventing "cool names" when you already have historical names is good. Even more with recurring names that are very cool(for lack of a better term).
    In fact I think that if it were me I would feel disappointed and frustrated... My genuine sympathy.

    I also did not like how stereotyped the names of the Dragon Units are. I can only imagine how much worse it must be for you.

    It was precisely because of this that I ended up having the idea of the Four Symbols, so I realized that it did not fit with Wu Xing mechanics so prevalent in the game.
    I started researching and found out about the Yellow Dragon.
    And I think to myself:

    "It's a wonderful world."

    "That would be a lot better..."

    So I decided to make a post about it. And as always I got a little excited.
  • Levi_fowl27Levi_fowl27 Posts: 80Registered Users
    HYLee said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching
    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/易经

    in Chinese, it should be 易經. In wikipedia, it is translated to "I Ching"
    One of the "Four Books, Five Classics", core studies of Confucianism, which was promoted in Early period of Han Dynasty.

    And Confucius was born in "Spring and Autumn Period", just before "Warring state period".

    Thank you.
    I read the article it's interesting.
    I probably will read more about it in the weekend.
    Breadbox said:

    It's actually fairly simple, there are plenty of historical unit names that made an appearence in the Record of the Three Kingdoms, most of them sensible and grounded in reality, naming after mythical beast is almost never done. They are typically named after the region that they are recruited from or a description of what they are famous for(ex:Assualt Battalions/Camp Crushers), there are fancy ones too.

    For example, Imperial Guards throughout Chinese History are usually called 'Feathered Forest" 羽林 or "Rapid as Tiger" , but for whatever reason, Imperial guards are called "Defenders of Heavens" ingame.
    Imagine playing Rome 2 and have everyother units named after random mythical beasts or Greek/Roman deities instead of established historical names. Or worse, Medieval Total War where unit names are shoehorned biblical symbolism/references, eyebrow raising at best, cringeworthy at worst.

    It is just painfully obvious that technicoloured gemstone dragons are names made up to sound stereotypically exotic to those who had not read Chinese history.

    Now I understand what you mean and honestly, now I agree with you.
    I do not think inventing "cool names" when you already have historical names is good. Even more with recurring names that are cool(for lack of a better term).

    In fact I think that if it were me I would feel disappointed and frustrated... My genuine sympathies.
    I also did not like how stereotyped the Dragon Units names are, I can only imagine how much worse it must be for you.

    It was precisely because of this, that I ended up having the idea of the Four Symbols, so I realized that it did not fit with Wu Xing mechanics so prevalent in the game.
    I started researching and found out about the Yellow Dragon.
    and I think to myself:

    "It's a wonderful world."

    "That would be a lot better..."

    So I decided to make a post about it, and as always I got a little excited.
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