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Ideas to improve the Campaign Map

WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior MemberPosts: 225Registered Users

Warhammers campaign gameplay is painfully dull, at least as some factions. I thought I would start a discussion on how we could improve it. Wheter it be overall, race or even faction specific.

Down below I made a list of suggestions/changes. Some are just points that I feels need to be addressed. I will update it as I go. Discuss, how would you like to see CA improve the campaign?

Overall

  • More Maps, I think this one of is a big killer of the replayability, provinces feel like one map when battle comes, and the formula based Siege maps is not helping either.
  • Improved Diplomacy, Quick Deals from 3K and more things to trade. Gold and War Declarations being the only way to improve relations is dull.
  • A bit of a meme at this point, but I genuinely thing Standard Bearers would add to the game. Infantry (RoRs getting their unique ones) holding the factions standard/banner. With giving the factions their own identity, it doesn't feel you fight Greenskin Tribe #12 but actually each respective one.
  • More Lord Variation. Purely cosmetically as it is more doable resource wise, but would love equipment variables as well.
  • Refine some Victory Conditions, some factions just have a list of major settlements to conquer some of them don't make sense lorewise or logically.

The Empire


Politics

A new menu and resource, Politics and Political Favor, this new menu would have every province of the Empire represented, including two new (not on the campaign) the church of Sigmar and Ulrics, also Kislev and Marienburg but they are not paramount.
Hovering over each faction, you would see a mission, say Middenland (Defeat a Beastmen army) and you gain +10 Political Favor, but you can only use said resource on the mission source. Polical Favor can be used to demand/request payments, military support and supplies and coordinated war attacks, and finally confederation. You would do gain these by battles, dilemmas and favorable diplomatic actions.


Grand Masters and Knightly Orders. (Player can choose Grand Masters Lord Knightly Order origins.)



Dwarfs

  • Uniting the Karaz Ankor/Grungis will - Reclaim lost holds. (Like Ancestral Grudges in SFO/Grimhammer)
  • Daemon and Dragonslayer (Lord and Hero Respectively)

Greenskins

Waagh- rework.

Vampire Counts

(Maybe) remove the generic Vampire Lord altogether, making it that only Necromancers can be recruited vanilla vise and the others through blood-kiss.

Warriors of Chaos

Path To Glory - Chaos Lords can take on a mark of a god, and embark on quest to become a Daemon Prince.

Beastmen

Herdstones.
Ghorghons.
Doombull.
Challenging LLs (when LLS are given their own factions) into confederation.

Wood Elves

Bretonnia

Brainstorm!

Norsca

Not suggestion, but a point, Norsca is the only faction with the availability to kill Non-LL Faction Leaders in the game.

Skaven

Give each faction something more to play with, Clan Mors and Rictus having a more upgraded Vermintide from the get go. Pestilens spreading plagues from the Underempire.

High Elves

The Intrigue Screen is rather uninspired.

Dark Elves

Black Arks overhaul or rework. There is no reason for a player to get them in the state. Allow Lords to embark on them with their armies.

Lizardmen

Snore. Help me out here.

Tomb Kings

Rather complete, Bone Giants(Melee) and High Liche Priests are sorely missed though.

Vampire Coast

  • Infamy is marketed as one of the race mechanics, but in reality, it does nothing.




Comments

  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Posts: 184Registered Users
    Taking on a a lot in one thread, but I can fill in some of the blank spaces.

    Lizardmen:
    Things to fix- Slann, Geomantic Web, Skinks and poison, and Primal Instincts.

    Slann- Need to have access to all 8 main lores of magic, plus High magic. Ideally, allow Slann to take more than one lore at a time (there is no excuse for Mannfred having superior access to magic than a Slann). I suggest that every Slann has access to every lore available to them, but can only spec into 2 of them on their skill tree. This in addition to powerful magic buffs that make a force to be reckoned with.

    Geomantic Web- This has a couple of different problems. (1) It's boring and pretty inconsequential in its current form; all it does is buff commandments based on its level. (2) It takes up a valuable building slot for not a lot of effect.
    -To address the first problem, I would give it some kind of an active effect that the player interact with. According to lore, Slann can use the Web to communicate and send their magic from vast distances. So, I would change the Web so that any Slann you have access to can send their spells to the battlefield, even when they're not present (perhaps at a degraded effect unless the Web is at full power).
    -The second problem is much easier to fix: either remove the Geomantic Pylon as a building or make it do something more useful than just giving an income bonus and making the Web stronger.

    Skinks and poison- This is more of an issue I have with the DLC units, but it fits in here. There aren't enough variants of Red Crested Skinks, CA should introduce Red Crested variants for the Skink Cohorts (at the very least for Tehenhauin) that are slightly stronger than regular Skinks. There's also the issue that Red Crested Skinks are supposed to be immune to all but the most potent poisons, so they should have poison immunity (as it's one of their defining characteristics).

    Primal Instincts- This is by far my biggest problem with the Lizardmen. Lizardmen are not primal and they are not prone to rampage. CA made a step in the right direction with the release of the Prophet and Warlock DLC, but it was only a bandage for a greater problem. Primal Instincts needs to be outright removed from the game and replaced with the actual trait that Lizardmen had in 8th edition: Predatory Fighter.
    Instead of getting a buff and losing control when they lose a certain amount of health, Saurus and other Predatory Fighter units are supposed to (a) fight better when they are winning, and (b) pursue their routing opponent unless a skink character is nearby. This can be implemented by making Predatory Fighter units (Saurus and Kroxigors) get a bonus to melee attack when they are winning their current fight (similar to the Nasty Skulkers' "Opportunist Murderer") and forcibly pursuing their prey when their opponent routs. The downside (chasing the routing enemy) is negated by giving all skink characters an aoe passive which prevents units from chasing the enemy down. This change is loreful, follows the spirit and rules of the tabletop, and keeps the player in control of his units (instead of leaving it up to the opponent to decide when to force a rampage). A change from Primal Instincts would also coincide very well with the potential future introduction of the much-anticipated Troglodon.


    Wood Elves:
    Things to fix- Amber, Expansion, the Wild Hunt, Offices in general

    Amber- Needs to either be removed or made a collectible resource like warp fuel instead of being reliant on how many settlements you and your allies control. It currently disincentives you from accessing your full roster because you need to upgrade the Oak of Ages.

    Expansion- Wood Elf expansion is terrible because they can only build small outposts, so Wood Elves are mostly relegated to camping in Athel Loren. Possible solutions to this problem could either be (a) allow Athel Loren to expand and contract based on some kind of corruption, or (b) make Athel Loren bigger and more varied to represent the size and variation of the forest's landscape. Athel Loren could expand based on the "seeding" that the Wood Elves do when they capture a settlement. As the the seedling grows, it could turn into a kind of mini-Athel Loren. Or at the very least make it function as a World route that can be teleported to from other settlements.

    Wild Hunt: The Hunt seems lacking for the level of importance it holds in Wood Elf culture and lore. The Wood Elves are eternally at war and the Wild Hunt is meant to be an expression of that, led exclusively by Orion. Instead of just being an office with some bonuses, it could somewhat resemble the hunting mechanic of Norsca. It could function as missions requiring Orion to leave Athel Loren to deal with potential threats to its borders, maybe give some good or unique items as a trophy/reward for completing the Hunt.
  • BetoBotBetoBot Posts: 229Registered Users
    I'm going to concentrate in faction wide improvements:

    - Your improvements seems too much for CA. New map? I will love it but I don't see it happening. Too expensive. Perhaps the hability to start with a LL in different positions will give us more replayability.
    -

    I will love two things added:
    - new dwelling of monsters or creatures. But instead of treasures the reward are a special recruitable unit.
    - and of course mercenaries and specific mercenaries for provinces like Rome 2. How is this not done for WH? In Rome 2 was Great.. Why do not repeat it here?
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 358Registered Users
    1. Diplomacy needs to be reowrked. It should not be as deep as 3Kingdoms, but some more eoptions would be nice.

    2. Allow us to reset the lord skill points.
    3. Have more versions of the same battle map. A night one, a rainy one etc. Sometimes I fight like 5-6 battles in a row on the exact same battlefield.
    4. Rework many island battle maps. They're horrible. Most of them have something in the way in the center of the map or have a very tiny deployment zone.

    Faction specific changes

    Norsca: remove supply lines penalty.
    Wood Elves: Rework Amber
    Chaos Warriors: a quick way to fix them for now is to simply give them more horde growth. Then we can wait for WH3 to flesh them out.
    Lizardmen: rework the building chains and the Slanns. They have too many buikdings.

    We.know they're reworking empire and greenskins, so I'm not saying anything about them for now.
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,315Registered Users
    Each time I see people asking for less LM buildings I wonder : okay you get your units faster, and then what ? What is left to do in a campaign ? Most factions are quite dull in campaign once you've secured 3 whole provinces. This is my main pet peeve. In TWW1, I was immersed enough to bother completing officialy campaign, in TWW2 I just give up. Too much of the good and hard stuff happens right at the start. Once you reached your T5, you often don't need those kind of units.

    Agree about the maps, the worst thing is when you have to fight several turns in the same disputed spot, you get to fight 3-4-5 times in sucession in the exact same battle map.

    I feel they went with a cautious approach within game 1, that's understandable, there was a lot of stuff to do. But by the end of game 2, it's maybe time to really split the way factions work in the campaign in a more different ways. Greenskins holding provinces and earning income the same way as empire or elfs feels weird.
    Elves, btw, are showered in gold and don't feel like a faction that should be wary of attriting their elite troops (same for the dwarfs, gosh how many longbeards have I lost to win, there mustn't be a single old dwarf alive at this rate)

    And, finally, please, don't forget that removing tedious stuff doesn't mean that challenging aspects of faction are bad. I don't mind LM having a complex way to build stuff, heck their whole LORE is about them making things too complicated for their own sake in general. The same way grudges are actually a dwarf problem.

    About hordes, Ideally, having a few smallish parties should be a viable option. I don't know how to make it work easily though. Currently, growth, garrisons, income all gang up to make the player use a single or couple super doom stacks. With non horde faction, defeats aren't the end, but a setback and can make a campaign more memorable. There should be a way for this to be the case with hordes, too. You could funnel your income into important tech bricks rather than small upgrades, for instance, and have some razed areas work as restarting ground. Then have the hord growth be used for less stuff instead.
  • Theo91Theo91 Posts: 778Registered Users
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 5,321Registered Users
    Solid stuff what little of it I read (mainly read the overarching stuff. More battle maps wouldn’t go amiss. I didn’t play 3K a whole lot but what little I did I thought there were some really beautiful ones, especially those with some impassable terrain on it. It’s a shame woodland battles are horrible to play because those maps are, in theory, very cool.

    Being someone who loves even the simplified trading system in this game I’d very much like to see it improved. But alas this is not that kind of game. CA seem pretty commited to the ”In the Grim Darkness of the Old World there is only War” theme that they’ve got going. Which also means there’s loads of other stuff that won’t get a look in.

    But since Lords and Heroes are such a big part of the game I think we might see more RP elements added. A bit more customization perhaps? Or a system for all races to have access to buying and selling items and followers.
    Lord of the Undermountain
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,315Registered Users
    The biggest obstacle to most interactions in the campaign is this is the furthest possible setting from a civil war or "somewhat uniform culture". In a 3K, shogun you would have clan/nations featuring samish units, and being able to exchange a lot. You could introduce deep systems applicable to many factions at once.

    Here we have not only cultures vastly differents, but even species, and technology, or more fantastical difference. That's what have been hindering say, the Empire. A whole host of systems, political introgue, sanitation, food, trade systems could exist... and then not be applicable to 80% of the other factions. Worse, what is already used for most of the factions sometimes doesn't even feel corect (see my previous post)

    That's not to say the campaign should stay in it's current state of course. Region exchange, trade, recruitement could and should be looked at. The climate is a good idea that requires mayve a extension to update its execution.

    If I had a dream, it would be a rather assymetrical game between factions that can reasonnable develop their territory but have constraints maintaining armies, vs factions that can easily use their troops but will lack the tools to manage a large empire. Call it the Empire vs greenskins division if you wish. The biggest obstacle is the inherent power difference between early and late game for the kind of faction, but this power difference, actually, already exists... just consider each time people talk about the insane income of DE/HE.
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 358Registered Users
    uriak said:

    Each time I see people asking for less LM buildings I wonder : okay you get your units faster, and then what ? What is left to do in a campaign ? Most factions are quite dull in campaign once you've secured 3 whole provinces. This is my main pet peeve. In TWW1, I was immersed enough to bother completing officialy campaign, in TWW2 I just give up. Too much of the good and hard stuff happens right at the start. Once you reached your T5, you often don't need those kind of units.

    @uriak It's not really about getting stuff earlier, it's more about being able to concentrate all military buildings in the same province. Every race is able to do this at least in their most important provinces like the ones that contain Lothern or Naggarond. Lizardmen can't, they have to spread their military buildings between two provinces at the very least. This would be very beneficial for economy aswell, because the less mandatory buildings you have (geomantic web and slann chamber for example), the more building slots you have to dedicate to income. The Slann chamber in particular doesn't make sense. Both high elves and dark elves get +1 lord recruitment level from a military building, why should lizardmen have to build a building that does nothing else?
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,315Registered Users
    edited June 11
    But that's exactly the crux of my argument. I'm wondering if being able to have the whole roster in a single province is good design. And I will never say the elves are "campaign balanced". These factions have important weaknesses in the lore that are not showcased at all. At least the LM are supposedly always pondering what to do and building complex stuff and technically "wasting time". I mean, they have super wizards, and their fighter/worker directly spawns from sacred pools, already adults. Only the undeads have it easier to get some troops X)

    I know it's not "empowering" to have to use many slots for secundary functions. But at the same time, isn't the early game the moment where you do most of the interesting choices ? Disbanding units for income, sacrificing growth for it or vice versa, crushing rebellions etc.
    In the later stages of the game, the only real variable is how and when to move you stack to face the most powerful threats, mostly. Public order is usually quelled for good and you have unlocked somewhere your late units.

    They could remove some temples or the geomantic web building, but then this rule would only use maybe the city level, something the player would always level up anyway ?
    Game 1 one factions had several cross building restrictions, mark my words but CA went the easier route mostly because they didn't want the AI to screw up recruitement. The irony is there are the tools in the game to prevent that, aka, telling the AI scripts what to build together.

    Of course they can keep things simple military wise but then there is not many other systems to use buildings for, bar more income.

    PS : they should let us choose different kinds of "ports" currently they forced on us, even in small towns...
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Posts: 232Registered Users
    I'm probably in the minority here but I actually wish building trees were much more fleshed out and building choices were doubled. I really liked the choices I could make with my provinces in games like Atilla.

    I don't particularly like the idea of being able to recruit every unit from any given province, the one exception should maybe be your starting region or the races "home" region like Hexoatl. That could even make some asymmetrical choices between lords in a given faction. Mazdamundi can recruit anything he wants from Hexoatl because he has the space to do so, but the rest of them can't. Any extra sense of replayability and diversity among campaigns is always good.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 5,321Registered Users

    I'm probably in the minority here but I actually wish building trees were much more fleshed out and building choices were doubled. I really liked the choices I could make with my provinces in games like Atilla.

    I don't particularly like the idea of being able to recruit every unit from any given province, the one exception should maybe be your starting region or the races "home" region like Hexoatl. That could even make some asymmetrical choices between lords in a given faction. Mazdamundi can recruit anything he wants from Hexoatl because he has the space to do so, but the rest of them can't. Any extra sense of replayability and diversity among campaigns is always good.

    Definitely a good thing. Something that 3K did very well was make provinces feel a lot more unique vis-a-vis eachother through the economic system. But that was done by giving each lesser settlement their own class of buildings to a large extent and by having more forms of income. So harder to do well in TWW unless they change things.

    We could go back to having 6 slot main settlements and adding in more specialized landmarks but I feel that this might not be well recieved unless it is done to absolute perfection.
    Lord of the Undermountain
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Posts: 2,907Registered Users
    edited June 14
    Overall:

    Maps- More varied battle maps for sure, but also maps that are appropriate to the terrain. I hate that battles fought in the World's Edge Mountains are basically just flat battlefields. There should be extreme elevation, choke points, cliffs, etc. Hell, the battlefields in Bretonnia are much better in this regard and they're supposed to be the race which thrives in wide open areas suitable for cavalry maneuvers.

    Diplomacy- Region trading and "Accept or prepare for War". These were some options that I really liked from earlier TW titles.

    Relocate Capital- If they're so hell-bent on spreading LLs out in the name of variety, they should at least enable LLs like Vlad, Belegar, Skarsnik, Queek, Lokhir, Arkhan, Morathi, etc. to change their capital to Castle Drakenhof, Karak Eight Peaks, Karond Kar, the Black Tower, Ghrond, etc.

    Faction Rename- Just give the OW OG factions their specific names already. Reikland, Drakenhof, Sylvania, Karaz-a-Karak, Karak Eight Peaks, 'Ardboyz, Warherd of the One-Eye, Talsyn, Couronne, and Sarl.

    Supply Lines- Could be it's own thread

    Hordes- Could also be it's own thread

    Dwarfs:

    Slayer Characters- I actually disagree on getting both the Daemon Slayer and the Dragon Slayer. The way Lords work in TW would be inconsistent with how Slayer Characters operated on TT since they couldn't be generals. So if Daemon Slayers can't be lords, they should be the ones to take the Hero slot.

    Thorek Ironbrow- Thorek Ironbrow

    Artillery Runes- Just add another tab in the Forge UI where you can craft artillery runes which can be attached to war machines like banner runes. And also enable crafting of banner runes.

    Shield Wall- Unit formations are a Total War thing, and I'm kinda disappointed this rule wasn't translated into an ability for Dwarf shielded infantry. The more recently added races got their army special rules implemented in cool ways, why not Dwarfs?

    Vampire Counts:

    Bloodlines- should extend to Vampire Heroes as well and each Bloodline Lord should encourage specific army builds like a Cavalry focus for Blood Knights, Strigoi should encourage ghoul and beast focused armies, etc.

    LLs- Neferata and Zacharias would make their lineup pretty much complete in my eyes (along with unlocking the Red Duke)

    Currency- I think it's a little weird that they can turn trade goods into "Dark Magic" or whatever. I'm not opposed to them using Dark Magic as their currency for raising and maintaining armies, but I think gold currency should be worked into their economy somehow.

    Vampire Coast:

    They're Pirates- Their economy should really be based on raiding, sacking, and looting, not infrastructure. Their buildings can grant them some of the highest steady income in the game despite the fact that they should be taking wealth from others, not making it themselves.

    As for Empire, Greenskins, Warriors of Chaos, and Beastmen, there's too much to list here. I'll check in after their updates are released.
    Post edited by Ol_Nessie on
    Keep Grombrindal in KaK, K8P should be 10 slots, Dogs of War should be a horde, DoC should be one race- Change my mind

    Give us a Slayer Hero!
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Posts: 2,045Registered Users

    I'm probably in the minority here but I actually wish building trees were much more fleshed out and building choices were doubled. I really liked the choices I could make with my provinces in games like Atilla.

    I don't particularly like the idea of being able to recruit every unit from any given province, the one exception should maybe be your starting region or the races "home" region like Hexoatl. That could even make some asymmetrical choices between lords in a given faction. Mazdamundi can recruit anything he wants from Hexoatl because he has the space to do so, but the rest of them can't. Any extra sense of replayability and diversity among campaigns is always good.

    Completely agree. I liked it better in game 1 where, as the Empire, you had to build your provinces towards a certain military branch or economy. Do I want this to be an artillery province or cavalry or do I want to make the most money possible? The choices man empire management more engaging and real; each choice requires a compromise. You had to think about what was going to go where. Now you just dedicate one province to military production and the rest just crank out money. Much less interesting and fun and engaging IMO. Not that the building tree was perfect (it wasn't), just that it was a more immersive system than it is now.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 5,321Registered Users

    I'm probably in the minority here but I actually wish building trees were much more fleshed out and building choices were doubled. I really liked the choices I could make with my provinces in games like Atilla.

    I don't particularly like the idea of being able to recruit every unit from any given province, the one exception should maybe be your starting region or the races "home" region like Hexoatl. That could even make some asymmetrical choices between lords in a given faction. Mazdamundi can recruit anything he wants from Hexoatl because he has the space to do so, but the rest of them can't. Any extra sense of replayability and diversity among campaigns is always good.

    Completely agree. I liked it better in game 1 where, as the Empire, you had to build your provinces towards a certain military branch or economy. Do I want this to be an artillery province or cavalry or do I want to make the most money possible? The choices man empire management more engaging and real; each choice requires a compromise. You had to think about what was going to go where. Now you just dedicate one province to military production and the rest just crank out money. Much less interesting and fun and engaging IMO. Not that the building tree was perfect (it wasn't), just that it was a more immersive system than it is now.
    10/8 slot cities feel more like an AI helper than necessarily being for the good of the players experience. I wouldn’t necessarily mind going back to 6 slot capitals to be honest.
    Lord of the Undermountain
  • endurendur Posts: 2,973Registered Users
    From a campaign perspective, land sea is a problem for the AI. The AI doesn't handle it well. The AI is better off with pure land or pure sea.

  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,315Registered Users
    Well from a design pov, if the AI was able to merge armies/replace units a lot of stuff could be allowed back to be more challenging.

    I discussed it with Celtik once, saying that maybe the idea was creating province templates aka group of buildings pinpointed to the AI for a specific province, rather than have a list that is applied to everywhere (there are condition for what to build or avoid depending on what is built but it's not universal) SO Empire AI would have a cav/infantry province, a ranged province, pure eco province, etc.

    I know they are wholly diferrent genre, but I long a bit for the feeling you get when playing a proper 4X, with specialized cities, that brings different features to your empire. So far province kinda bring either units (and a lot of variant of them) or income, mostly. With chains simplification, the unit part can be often solved with the starting province, which makes other provinces less interesting. TK are a bit different, but the multiple of military buildings kinda fill the gap left by a lack of much other options.
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