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Rebels don't muster enough troops before attacking

durbaldurbal Posts: 66Registered Users
Currently they just sit there for one or two turns and then suicide into garrisons with fractions of every unit.

Should be pretty straightforward to fix I hope.

Comments

  • johncagejohncage Posts: 246Registered Users
    edited June 15
    if you're talking the public disorder generated rebels, it's intentional, rebel that rouse up from the countryside usually can't take over settlements, otherwise it'll be so easy for rebels to conquer entire nations.
  • street_regulatorstreet_regulator Posts: 162Registered Users
    @johncage you're right but its a bit strange transitioning to that from how warhammer was. Couldn't leave a rebellion mustering too long in those games or they'd get real beefy
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 575Registered Users
    johncage said:

    if you're talking the public disorder generated rebels, it's intentional, rebel that rouse up from the countryside usually can't take over settlements, otherwise it'll be so easy for rebels to conquer entire nations.

    Not much point in the mechanic though if you can always beat them with the default garrison..
  • JerroserJerroser Posts: 219Registered Users
    From what I have seen they often wait a bit longer and build up a much larger stack before attacking. Although it might be that they scale their strength to the garrison of the settlement they are attacking and undervalue it for the minor settlements.

    Personally I've never let a rebel army live long enough to even become a threat, but I have seen them wait outside by larger cities for quite a while trying to build up a strong army. I have also seen a few cases where the AI is able loose a city or two to them, likely due to ignoring it for too long. There was even one very funny case when I saw the Kingdom of Wu form in the south only to immaterially loose their Imperial Seat to a rebel uprising the next turn.
  • Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Posts: 2,463Registered Users
    There should be more penalties in addition to the rebel army spawning, like riots in the streets that damage buildings in the settlement every turn, and attrition and defections which deplete your garrison, etc.

    The damaged buildings would cause a headache for the player, and the depleted garrison wouldn't be able to defend against the rebel army if it got big enough.
  • durbaldurbal Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited June 15
    johncage said:

    if you're talking the public disorder generated rebels, it's intentional, rebel that rouse up from the countryside usually can't take over settlements, otherwise it'll be so easy for rebels to conquer entire nations.

    This implies that you can just ignore public order. Rebels are just free gold and do nothing. It's actually more economical to max out taxes and spawn rebels as frequently as possible because you get +20% tax and the free spoils of war from defeating the rebels.

    It's definitely not intentional for a rebel unit to muster for one turn and then try to take on a city with a garrison building. They just suicide. You don't even need to play the battle because it's usually an autoresolve decisive victory.

    The basic army AI doesn't do that and neither should rebels.
  • lucky_dutchlucky_dutch Posts: 181Registered Users

    @johncage you're right but its a bit strange transitioning to that from how warhammer was. Couldn't leave a rebellion mustering too long in those games or they'd get real beefy

    Yeah because warhammer rebellions were completely ridiculous.

    If you beat them in a battle but didn't have the movement range to finish them same turn, they double in size the next turn and be able to take a city!

    This is better imo.
  • QiangLordQiangLord Posts: 26Registered Users
    edited June 15
    The problem is that rebellions as they stand have no purpose whatsoever. In fact, they're basically an exploit.

    Ramp up your taxes.
    Don't bother ever building PO buildings.
    Let rebellion spawn.
    Beat rebellion with your garrison. In most cases, there's no ramification to getting a close or pyrrhic victory.
    Get free money and a public order boost.

    There's no trade-off to increasing your taxes and having negative public order is actually rewarded. On top of that, it makes public order buildings literally useless. Having just tried this out in a game, I agree 100% with OP. I won't be using it again because I'm not exploit-minded, but rebellions are definitely broken.
  • lucky_dutchlucky_dutch Posts: 181Registered Users
    QiangLord said:

    The problem is that rebellions as they stand have no purpose whatsoever. In fact, they're basically an exploit.

    Ramp up your taxes.
    Don't bother ever building PO buildings.
    Let rebellion spawn.
    Beat rebellion with your garrison. In most cases, there's no ramification to getting a close or pyrrhic victory.
    Get free money and a public order boost.

    There's no trade-off to increasing your taxes and having negative public order is actually rewarded. On top of that, it makes public order buildings literally useless. Having just tried this out in a game, I agree 100% with OP. I won't be using it again because I'm not exploit-minded, but rebellions are definitely broken.

    I was under the understanding that it damaged population (which in turn damages income). I haven't ever looked closely to confirm this though.
  • QiangLordQiangLord Posts: 26Registered Users

    I was under the understanding that it damaged population (which in turn damages income). I haven't ever looked closely to confirm this though.

    Perhaps it does, but if so, then it's quickly offset by farming infinite money from the rebellions. This only becomes more and more viable the larger your territory is, too.
  • durbaldurbal Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited June 15
    Not to mention that the +20% bonus to tax and food is way higher than peasant income is ever going to be.

    And on top of that you can actually offset the growth penalties and enjoy maxed population plus +20% tax plus the free loot pinatas that are rebels.

    It's all beside the point anyway: the main point is that rebels are bugged and misjudge garrison strength and just suicide into them. There's no reason they shouldn't spend multiple turns mustering until they can take a settlement soundly and not run 150 peasants into a 1K garrison which they currently do.
  • lucky_dutchlucky_dutch Posts: 181Registered Users
    durbal said:

    Not to mention that the +20% bonus to tax and food is way higher than peasant income is ever going to be.

    And on top of that you can actually offset the growth penalties and enjoy maxed population plus +20% tax plus the free loot pinatas that are rebels.

    It's all beside the point anyway: the main point is that rebels are bugged and misjudge garrison strength and just suicide into them. There's no reason they shouldn't spend multiple turns mustering until they can take a settlement soundly and not run 150 peasants into a 1K garrison which they currently do.

    I wouldn't be opposed to them mustering to the point that its a fair fight vs garrison. I wouldn't want it to be like WH though where they rapidly muster into an untouchable, regenerating doomstack.
  • durbaldurbal Posts: 66Registered Users
    edited June 16
    Here's what routinely happens.

    image

    You can tell they attacked as soon as they spawned and ran right into a full stack with Yuan Shao and the city garrison.

    So yeah, please fix this. :)
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