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Remove skirmish mode from missile cav in MP

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  • WunderKatzeWunderKatze Posts: 217Registered Users
    This thread is very toxic. I don't think it has much potential as long as the proponents of removing skirmish mode are so bent on brow beating the community and preaching about video game skills.

    There is no talk about the reality of skirmish mode in the game. I certainly don't even keep it on all game no matter what unit I'm using. Sometimes I don't want my skirmish cav to run away from targets. I usually will flip it on and off during a game depending on circumstance.

    Also there isn't any attempt to talk about the outliers units and factions who are disproportionately affected.

    Also this talk about 'needing to screen the good from the bad' is ridiculous and definitely a sad reflection of the state of the balance section. Too many people here are overly keen on being utterly divisive. No one is winning tournaments with skirmish mode, hell non of the best factions (VC VP SKV LZM) even have skirmish cav and none of the best units in the game are skirmish cav.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    If you dont keep it it on what bad is it to remove it?

    Ok can we get 1 thing first that see if we can agree on this.

    ALL missile units who used up ALL of their ammo have skirmish mode disabled. Hows this for a start?
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,122Registered Users, Moderators
    Canuovea said:

    Alright. So I was called in here and I decided to take a look. For the most part things have been alright, but gotten to be on the verge of insulting.

    Consider this a warning that personal sniping will not be tolerated.

    That was me. Just a lil while ago.

    @Lotus_Moon and @eumaies
    Both of you cut out the bickering and sniping.

    This is a last warning for everyone else too. Any more bickering from anyone and infraction points will be dealt out to whoever is doing it.
    -Forum Terms and Conditions: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
    -Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
    -The "Spam" flag is not a "disagree" flag. Have a care.
    -...No, no the "Abuse" flag isn't a "disagree" flag either!
    -5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,422Registered Users
    edited June 7

    If you dont keep it it on what bad is it to remove it?

    Ok can we get 1 thing first that see if we can agree on this.

    ALL missile units who used up ALL of their ammo have skirmish mode disabled. Hows this for a start?

    Buttons are your friend. They don't hurt anyone. They could give the skirmish button to every unit and it would not be a problem. So no, not something i agree with at all. And a waste of devs time.
  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Posts: 425Registered Users
    I'll never understand the part of the community that think multiplayer will be ruined for new players if skirmish mode is taken away from skirmish cav. Skirmish mode both hurts and helps new players.

    1. It hurts new players because they in turn have to deal with skirmish cav on skirmish mode, which will be much more difficult if they are using a faction without longer ranged infantry like beastmen, dark elves, norsca, and chaos. Without it on cav they would have more of a chance of catching them except maybe against top players which they would lose against regardless if there's skirmish mode on cav or not.
    2. It hurts new players because skirmish mode often bugs out and doesn't work as intended.
    3. It also hurts new players because they have to learn to constantly turn it on and off when needed otherwise one cheap shielded unit will endlessly push a missle cav unit or units until they run out of ammo.
    4. It helps new players because if they aren't paying attention to their own missle cav and it's about to be caught in melee, the AI will step in and pull it out of danger for them.

    Comparing the pros on cons I don't think it's going to change much in the skill required for MP if it remains or is taken out. It will just make gameplay different. Why i'm for removing skirmish mode on cav is it has a lot of stupid results, like a bunch of missile cav retreating from one shielded unit, blobbing together, and running in random directions. I'm also for removing it because it helps factions without long ranged missile infantry have a chance to kill them instead of just only having the option to ignore them or screen them. The only reason i'm for keeping skirmish mode on missile cav, is that we might start moving down a path where we make too many caveats for MP making it seem arbitrarily different from SP for a lot of people who don't agree with or understand why the differences exist.

    So would I prefer missile cav not have skirmish mode? Yes. Do I think CA should actually remove it from MP? I don't know. It seems we're way past that point and that it would be a major change to something that is a base game mechanic, which is quite different than changing stats. So i'm not that emotionally invested in either outcome. I just think both sides of the argument can get a little too dramatic about the impact of skirmish mode.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    I dont consider it a waste of time if it has positive impact on the game.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,665Registered Users
    edited June 7
    An auto brace button that worked great would be nice.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,229Registered Users

    eumaies said:

    .

    eumaies said:

    Not this again.

    Making the game harder to play to satisfy a few players who play this game a ton is nonsense. The point shoudl be to maximize strategy, not force you to babysit units doing predictable things.


    As has been discussed ad infinitum, using skirmishing mode is not always a good idea. It's a delegation of authority that can get you into trouble.

    In the past i suggested to remove it on all units not ONLY skirmish cav.

    If its not a good idea some of the time to use skirmish mode than even less reason to keep it.

    Its not really strategy though when you let AI play for you.
    The strategy is to tell your troops what you want them to do. The competitive clicking to see who is better at quickly telling their troops what to do is some other terrible game that has nothing to do with strategy. 0%. If I want my skirmish cav to run there is no strategy involved in making it harder for me to do that.
    In that case can we have

    Auto brace button
    Skirmish mode for melee if opponent is stronger
    Auto fire vs best target
    Auto cast spells onoptimum target
    Auto engage
    Auto disangage loosing fights

    Because rite now all above example are not strategy they are just clicking.


    I want to tell my troops to only engage fights they can win and avoid loosing fights, why do i have to click rite now to do that, this is not strategy....

    Sounds like this game needs to be made into turn based to please people.
    You are engaging in reductio ad absurdum. Also, I'm not sure I'd agree with any of your points.

    Auto brace button - your units already automatically brace

    Skirmish mode for melee - that would fall into AI making decisions for the player. In many cases you would want your infantry together. Sometimes you want something else. You may have 2 weaker units that would win against a single opponent's units but both are weaker individually. You may want to tie down enemy with a weaker unit for a cav charge. That would not be automation of a task, it would be AI messing with my strategy

    Auto fire vs best target and Auto cast spells on optimum target - AI can't know what is the best/optimum target. Is executioner a better target for waywatchers or a dark rider that is closing in on them? Does it hit Kholek that is 250m away or a netted Chaos Knights nearby? Does it fires best possible spell at current WoM pool or does it wait for WoM to regenerate? Does the player wants to risk waiting longer in the hope he can get enemy to clump up for Final Trans? Best target would depend on map, on your army composition, enemy army composition, the flow of battle etc... Like previous point, both of these falls into decision making, and that is for the player.

    Auto engage - you already have auto engage. You click on enemy unit you want to engage and AI calucates the shortest path and adjust your unit's path if the enemy moves.

    Auto disengage losing fights - Again, this falls into decision making. My unit may be losing a fight but it might be waiting for reinforcements. It might be losing but it could still be an advantage for me based on gold invested - would I want to my Centigors to withdraw from fighting Sisters of the Thorn? Would I want my Black Ark Corsairs to withdraw from fighting Dragonback Slayers? I may be pinning an enemy in one place so I can get more value in another. I may be pinning an enemy for missile fire or spell. I may be keeping enemy temporarily in place so he doesn't kill my lord or a caster. Is my unit slower than the enemy's? If it stays into a fight, it might lose but it will do some damage while if it tries to continuously withdraw if would just be giving enemy free damage.

  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Posts: 215Registered Users



    You are engaging in reductio ad absurdum. Also, I'm not sure I'd agree with any of your points.

    Auto brace button - your units already automatically brace

    Skirmish mode for melee - that would fall into AI making decisions for the player. In many cases you would want your infantry together. Sometimes you want something else. You may have 2 weaker units that would win against a single opponent's units but both are weaker individually. You may want to tie down enemy with a weaker unit for a cav charge. That would not be automation of a task, it would be AI messing with my strategy

    Auto fire vs best target and Auto cast spells on optimum target - AI can't know what is the best/optimum target. Is executioner a better target for waywatchers or a dark rider that is closing in on them? Does it hit Kholek that is 250m away or a netted Chaos Knights nearby? Does it fires best possible spell at current WoM pool or does it wait for WoM to regenerate? Does the player wants to risk waiting longer in the hope he can get enemy to clump up for Final Trans? Best target would depend on map, on your army composition, enemy army composition, the flow of battle etc... Like previous point, both of these falls into decision making, and that is for the player.

    Auto engage - you already have auto engage. You click on enemy unit you want to engage and AI calucates the shortest path and adjust your unit's path if the enemy moves.

    Auto disengage losing fights - Again, this falls into decision making. My unit may be losing a fight but it might be waiting for reinforcements. It might be losing but it could still be an advantage for me based on gold invested - would I want to my Centigors to withdraw from fighting Sisters of the Thorn? Would I want my Black Ark Corsairs to withdraw from fighting Dragonback Slayers? I may be pinning an enemy in one place so I can get more value in another. I may be pinning an enemy for missile fire or spell. I may be keeping enemy temporarily in place so he doesn't kill my lord or a caster. Is my unit slower than the enemy's? If it stays into a fight, it might lose but it will do some damage while if it tries to continuously withdraw if would just be giving enemy free damage.

    Yes, units brace automatically, but half the time you don't know when they are braced or not. Like, do you know how much time does it take for a unit to be braced? The braced state has no indication, does it? And timing is very important in these kinds of battles.

    If my unit has defence against large and it is so important mechanic to be successful against large units, then I need a reliable way to use it.

    I liked "shield of wall" formations in other Total War games where you can command your unit to form a line and don't lose cohesion. You get bonuses but run slower, or you can lose bonuses but run faster and lose cohesion, which is the default and only mode in Warhammer right now.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,665Registered Users
    edited June 7
    Id like to see units auto braced at all times except when charging or moving for a few seconds (allow brscing for minor adjustmwnts etc)
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • WunderKatzeWunderKatze Posts: 217Registered Users
    edited June 10

    Do I think CA should actually remove it from MP? I don't know.

    Edit: misread the quote. Sorry
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 323Registered Users
    I like skirmish mode. This is a strategy game, not a FPS. Removing skirmish mode increases reliance on micro, which is a rather low level skill intellectually, and thus decreases the reliance on strategy. Strategy games should award strategic decisions, not actions per second.

    Removing skirmish mode will also make the game much less accessible for new players, and it's already very hard to learn this game.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users

    I like skirmish mode. This is a strategy game, not a FPS. Removing skirmish mode increases reliance on micro, which is a rather low level skill intellectually, and thus decreases the reliance on strategy. Strategy games should award strategic decisions, not actions per second.

    Removing skirmish mode will also make the game much less accessible for new players, and it's already very hard to learn this game.

    Its talking about missile cav only
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 916Registered Users

    I like skirmish mode. This is a strategy game, not a FPS. Removing skirmish mode increases reliance on micro, which is a rather low level skill intellectually, and thus decreases the reliance on strategy. Strategy games should award strategic decisions, not actions per second.

    Removing skirmish mode will also make the game much less accessible for new players, and it's already very hard to learn this game.

    Its talking about missile cav only
    That doesn't really lessen the impact though. Missile cav are the units that skirmish mod is predominantly used on (them and 360 archers. Lets not pretend that its particularly useful for the other 80% of missile units.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users

    I like skirmish mode. This is a strategy game, not a FPS. Removing skirmish mode increases reliance on micro, which is a rather low level skill intellectually, and thus decreases the reliance on strategy. Strategy games should award strategic decisions, not actions per second.

    Removing skirmish mode will also make the game much less accessible for new players, and it's already very hard to learn this game.

    1 player is being awarded actions per second from skirmish mode, why does that player get to focus on strategy more?

    Someone manually microing a whole army against whole army in skirmish mode already focused on strategy less.

    How is that balanced?
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 323Registered Users

    I like skirmish mode. This is a strategy game, not a FPS. Removing skirmish mode increases reliance on micro, which is a rather low level skill intellectually, and thus decreases the reliance on strategy. Strategy games should award strategic decisions, not actions per second.

    Removing skirmish mode will also make the game much less accessible for new players, and it's already very hard to learn this game.

    1 player is being awarded actions per second from skirmish mode, why does that player get to focus on strategy more?

    Someone manually microing a whole army against whole army in skirmish mode already focused on strategy less.

    How is that balanced?
    Skirmishers would require far more micro than other units. If you want to make this argument, you may as well also remove all regular attack orders, especially group attack orders, because 'true skill' is presumably manually controlling each unit at all times. Skirmish mode allows you to make skirmishers harass 1 unit and flee is pursued. An attack order allows you to chase said skirmisher until they catch them. The 2 are equivalent in nature.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,617Registered Users
    I don't see any problem with automatic skirmish mode, more often than not a newbie relying on it will forget that he had it on and that one of his units has been driven to the edge of the map as a result so it's not like it's a replacement for skill in any case.

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