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Why is Chaos so boring?

SgtBlackwaterSgtBlackwater Registered Users Posts: 1
One of the biggest things I'm looking forward to in WH3 is the updated Chaos factions, because good lord Chaos in its current state might be one of the most boring campaigns I've played in any TW game to date. I've tried all the mods I could find that mad significant changes, I've tried all different difficulties and unit sizes to try and make it fun in any way, but it just isn't. It's slow, it's unexciting, the units and lords are almost totally uninspiring. Early game armies are boring, late game hellstacks are too easy to win with. The "tech tree" is more of a tech shrub, the starting position loses its luster after like ten turns, I could go on. I'm lumping in Beastmen here too for the most part, but at least there's something satisfying about the braying Beastmen herds. There's none of that interest for the Chaos faction.

Since I just spent a whole paragraph kvetching, I guess I'll add some stuff I like. There are some genuinely good mods for Chaos, even if a lot of the units are crippled by GW/CA asset protection. I remember the old Chaos Undivided mod, and I think the most recent one I played with was Total Chaos or something along those lines, and both are amazing at doing what they can with what CA gave them. Even some of the simple reskins (i'm thinking the ones that skin Chaos to look like they all follow one of the Chaos Gods) make it marginally more fun. So props to the modding community for making one of the most bland TW campaigns in the last few games playable.

CA had such fantastic lore to work with and this is what we got. Also, I know I'm like three or four years late to complain about a Game 1 faction but it's just unbelievably boring.


  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,761
    edited June 2019
    Because WoC was rushed out the door. So it lacks interesting campaign mechanics and is portrayed as a chaos undivided army since it lacks god specific chaos marks. However the undivided theme makes sense because all of these assets have fallen under the command of an Everchosen.

    Hopefully the four chaos gods are launched as individual armies so there can be god specific chaos factions. I don't think this will happen though since Daemons of Chaos was a single army book in 8th edition. Chaos is also not at war with itself during the end times which this game is set in.

    Thankfully Age of Sigmar took the god specific route and created individual chaos armies.
  • Otters007Otters007 Registered Users Posts: 984
    edited June 2019
    Beastmen have very basic campaign mechanics. But I find them so much fun to control in battle that they overcome that. It is so satisfying to see minotaurs barrel roll into things lol.

    Chaos aren't particularly exciting in campaign or battle. A shame, cuz they look awesome.

    I agree undivided is dull compared to god-specific armies. God-specific units have so much flavour.
  • WarfieldWarfield Registered Users Posts: 330
    My impressions about Chaos when TWW was first released was that CA sort of rushed to get the faction in there. As a Dwarf fan, I was pleased that there would be another army to contend with (I do like the global warning about the doom of everything entering the old world). I think the units are pretty cool looking too. However, I would guess that folks find their campaign boring.

    It is interesting that nearly three years later they still haven't got any attention (which is more a testament to the vast content in the Warhammer universe, rather than CA's inability to produce). Makes you wonder if all the content we fans go on and on about will ever see the light of day. I mean, at some point CA is going to stop making stuff for this game... :'(

    Anyway, I am hopeful that Chaos get some attention when TWW3 is released.

    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Zhufbar (for the time being)
    LINK: Skaven vs Dwarfs - The Unclean and The Upstart DLC
    Daemons of Chaos vs Dwarfs - The Daemon and The Slayer DLC
    Greenskins vs Dwarfs - The Troll-Eater and The Vengeful DLC

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,628
    Because it's rushed. Worry not, monogods will fix it in the Game3. Far too late but it is how it is.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
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  • redknight83redknight83 Registered Users Posts: 175
    I think in every game I play mortal empires you end with high elves and dwarfs as a super power every time. I think if they updated WoC, Beastmen and Greenskins this would sort this out.

    It never really feels like any of these order factions are under pressure in game
  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Registered Users Posts: 1,672
    I don't really want to go over all that again, but I'm pretty sure CA once again learned all the wrong lessons from it and will do worse in future.

    Also, in addition to what others have said: the WoC DLC was made by the Attila team, which should speak volumes.
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Registered Users Posts: 1,003
    With the "chaos hordes +", "Sarthorael the Everwatcher Unlock" and "Sarthorael the everwatcher skilltree" mods, I had a very fun Chaos campaign right before the prophet and the warlcok dropped. Chosen make the game too easy though, that is true. If you stick with chaos warriors, which are not bad at all by the way, the battles will be slightly more difficult and require you to use your knights, monsters and magic better. Only issue I had with these mods is that the sarthorael faction spawned with just one army. :(

    Anyway, I hope total war warhammer 3 comes soon, I can't wait for daemons and a good chaos campaign. I hope that when playing as the everchosen we will be able to confederate all the chaos and daemons legendary lords, to lead the ultimate dark crusade :)Milk for the Khorne flakes!
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Registered Users Posts: 939
    edited June 2019
    WoC isn't boring at all. What are you talking about? You got shaggoths, giants, trolls, chosen, and chaos knights, and if you can't mix and match that into something half-way amusing then I don't know what to say. Heck, even manticores can become hilarious if you've got enough and with WoC units you can have enough without losing the ground game.

    There's no AI-controlled rage stack mechanic, granted, but who would want those anyway? There's no moon phase nonsense, which simply means that every moon is bloodmoon.

    And there's no territory to defend so that means every turn is pure and unmoderated offense, only occasionally interrupted by running for your life when you overcommit. There's no need to worry about AI and diplomacy and whatnot because everything else must die. There's no silly chaos invasion mechanic that happens inconveniently and forces you to seek out and murder some AI armies on the other side of the world that absolutely don't want to be murdered, because you are the chaos invasion, out to murder anything you want whenever you want.

    Could WoC do with more "character"? Sure. Would it hurt them to have a more varied colour scheme? It really would not. Are you going to vomit all over your keyboard at the mere thought of another mass chosen battle once you've finished unpainting the map? You bet.

    But even so, there's a certain enjoyable simplicity to them. There's just you, the wheels underneath you, an inexhaustible supply of death and destruction in the trunk, and the open road ahead on the highway to hell.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,776
    If Chaos is boring then it's because Chaos itself is boring. A lot of what you're describing is inherent to Chaos. The OP Doomstacks are highly loreful, the slow start, etc.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Registered Users Posts: 1,003
    @MonochromaticSpider I agree about everything. The only annoying parts about chaos are the very slow horde growth and the AI mass recolonization. Sometimes you still have to play whack a mole with AI armies, however it is far less annoying than when you have territories to defend. That said, Chaos could still benefit from a ton of love by CA.
  • CountTalabeclandCountTalabecland Registered Users Posts: 289
    The heroes are kind of lack luster. Really wish there was a chaos lord that looked as cool as the one on the front of the 8th edition army book. I would like to see Chaos Sorcerers as funky looking as their models or maybe look like Magi from Warhammer online. A daemon prince would also go a long ways, much cooler than that bloody chicken.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 8,421
    edited June 2019
    For me Chaos are boring because of a few factors.

    1) They are Horde. Don’t get me wrong, I can appreciate the straight forwardness of the game play. But it is too shallow. There are barely any buildings to build meaning there are no variances and no intricacies. And also I really hope they add the Inevitable City in the Chaos Wastes as a fortress city you can control. I want a safe haven. A bastion to return to in the unlikely event that things go sour. And I wouldn’t mind being the defender in a siege when playing as the Warriors of Chaos (or Beastmen for that sake).

    Also of you compare all other hordes to the Vampire Coast you wonder why they got the short end of the stick. The Vamps for one thing have an abundance of built in growth through buildings. You want even close to the same growth with other hordes you have to wait longer, waste skill points as well as forego money in favour of horde growth when razing settlements.

    2. There are too few Lord and Hero choices to give you variance in that department.

    3. There’s no God alignment at all (beyond a few banners). Chaos lacking this is criminally insane and again gives no variance. Units without Marks of Chaos, characters without it as well. It boggles the mind.

    4. Warriors of Chaos as the only race in game...have no actual mechanic. It’s not even that they share a lacklustre mechanic with another race. They. Don’t. Even. Have. One. WTF.

    The best fantasy and 40k implementations of Chaos were always riddled with choice. Strange then to have the minimalistic implementation we have now.

    Edit. My first Warriors of Chaos campaign in TWW1 I did I chose to do a kind of Path to Glory approach. Path to Glory being a White Dwarf supplement focused around building a warband and battling it out in the north against other followers of Chaos in order to grow your favour with the Gods and thus also the size of your warband.

    I then spent 200ish (!!!) turns sacking, raiding and razing Norsca until I had 5 well built Hordes and lots of money which is when I started my invasion of the weakling southern realms. Very loreful if a bit overkill.

    If I were to make a mechanic for Warriors of Chaos I would expand the Chaos Wastes and fill it with more enemies and have a mechanic in some likeness of Path to Glory.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 8,421
    Also Beastmen are a completely different animal. They at least have the Chaos Moon mechanic, the Brayherds and the ambush on attacking stance. As well as three different starting positions (although with Hordes this doesn’t really matter a whole lot).
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,276
    Because they, like Beatmen, are hordes.

    What this means is that you're forced into this long grind of a camapign where all your doing is one battle after another, with some breaks for replenishment.

    There's nothing in the way of an actual camapign, you're not fighting over anything and there's nothing to defend. It's just one battle after another, and all you're leaving behind are ruins.

    It is, by unfortunate design, a repetitive and boring faction with an excuse for a campaign. The way to fix it? Throw away the hordes; they were a good idea on paper and a terrible one in practice.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    I'm afraid, people are overhyping the future changes, because they won't fix the divide between people who still like chaos and those who don't.

    Add more marks, monsters, mounts, units all you want, they are still variation on the common theme of the superior melee faction. Beastmen have a lot of fragile units, even in their high tiers, which isn't the case of WoC. Chosen and all are the less micro intensive kind of units in this game : they are unlikely to die or rout, once in contact can be left here so basically you'll have mainly cycle charge your knights and a few monsters.

    Campaign wise it's worse. They may add the chaos wastes are settled places for chaos, that would be loreful and leave them with something to do. But there is no chance they will be conquering south, though they could add some camps, for slaves, recruits, worship.

    Now they could twist and do many things, but the issue is the lore. Chaos are the ultimate tide of evil. In a perfect world there would be this vast space both in the steppes, wastes, and even chaos realms for them to fight for superiority then in the later stage of a campaign, invade (a kind of errantry war in reverse if you will) But this would require designing a big chunk of the map and campaign stage as a faction specific toy. Will they commit to this ? Hard to tell.
    If they don't and keep chaos as the frontline of an invasion, the campaign dynamic will keep sucking, and frankly, I don't feel the campaign of most factions have a good pacing in general, TW is too snowbally of game for this.

    Now think about it, but the TT had none of these issues. You'd have lore to fight some battles, and there was certainly a flair of powerplay by putting the insane minis of WoC. A power paid by the price of each units. When in TW a stack is mostly defined by its maximum usage of slots it's less true. A solution perhaps would be to lower dramatically the numbers of warriors in most chaos units (at least high level ones) and bring down their price/power to average levels. This way the fantasy of the über units is still alive while making a chaos stack something more in line with a normal army.
  • CosmikNoiseCosmikNoise Registered Users Posts: 17
    They were pretty boring on tabletop as well. Elite warriors with elite lords and monsters, rush and slash. No more no less.

    Actually, I don't expect much from them on the third part of the series. Even though I find Tzeentch lore quite interesting.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    I'll add that one supremely annoying thing with chaos is that the lore translates badly to out of combat elements. Most faction have still the fantasy of a realm to reunite or something, and fragile alliances, treasons etc.
    Chaos mostly resides around knowing who leads chaos and little else.
    Yeah they have left diplomacy options open, but honestly you'll be and should be waging war to everything non chaos and some chaos factions.
    In the lore, chaos is more insidious and many important figures were normal people turned into its lure, but they are not the theme nor the scope of this game. What actions reminding you of chaos will the game feature ? Attacking and razing/sacrificing every odd turn will be boring anyway. Little space for more loreful actions, actually.
  • arghozarghoz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 337
    Use the SFO mod, they became more fun then. There are also a few other mods that make them more interesting.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 3,741
    edited June 2019
    In terms of mechanics, it's pretty simple: they just don't have that much to do. This was a problem that affected a lot of the WHI factions and it's fairly evident that WHII was attempting to fix this by providing rites, crafting, shipwrecks, Old Ones puzzles, etc. They wanted to make sure that every turn you had something to do. WoC had it the worst out of the WHI factions in this regard, and compared to the WHII factions and the updated WHI factions they seem all the more lacking.

    The other issue is personality: namely that the Chaos Warriors don't have much. They're all a bunch of emotionless psychopaths clad in expressionless armor, marching forward inexorably and butchering anything in their path. The monsters add a bit more personality, but most of them have had their minds destroyed by mutation and are little more than ravening beasts. None of them have the most interesting of motivations.

    Now, Monogods could theoretically help here, as the rage of Khorne, the unsettling cheerfulness of Nurgle, the raving madness of Tzeentch, or the preening vanity of Slaanesh all offer a lot more distinctive personality. But to my mind while this is an improvement, it's only by a small margin. Instead of going from the generic lack of personality of the default WoC you instead switch to the one-note personality of one of the Chaos Gods.

    This, to me, is why the Daemons of Chaos are the most interesting Chaos faction. You've got all of the different Chaos God personalities and themes jumbled up together in one army where they can bounce or play off of each other in interesting and entertaining ways.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    Well technically they could make them more colorful with the gods elements, and add quests for their characters etc, after all, WoC are the "evil bretonnia" with marauders being just your basic barbarians, and warriors, characters being the result of a ruthless selection.

    Now because they are a horde and hated by everyone, it's difficult to give them something interesting to do. Bretonnia campaign was fun for me because, they just have to secure their own country then "pick their fight". I did a bloody purge of Athel Loren (left the Oak of ages standing for humanitarian reasons) then hopped into helping the Empire stop the tides of chaos at Middenheim, and finally cleansed Norsca and went into the wastes for the last quest.

    Now Imagine the situation for chaos. Difficult to send you a bit everywhere for different quests and character making events. You have to raze anything for survival and because you are chaos.
    Even Daemon may try to do more chirurgical strikes, because, well, in lore they appear by chance and do some stuff, they only went and tried to conquer all in the initial fall of the polar gates.
  • darkgaia01darkgaia01 Registered Users Posts: 282
    their boring becuz they were rushed out as a pre order dlc after people started to complaining about them been in game invasion event but not playable till the 1st dlc hit which would have given them more time to work on them and it then affected beastmen dlc as that was brought forward it they were rushed aswell.
  • FrostPawFrostPaw Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,115
    Disagree somewhat, the campaign always begins from the same place, which is poor for any faction. The gameplay is sudden death which is quite unsettling, the units are decently diverse but getting to the stage where you can afford to mix it up is slow. Horde factions offer a unique style of gameplay. I prefer them over Norsca due to not having to keep rebuilding razed settlements because of no walls.

    They definitely suffer from being game 1, day 1 dlc and before CA began to add variety of mechanics.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    FrostPaw said:

    The gameplay is sudden death which is quite unsettling, the units are decently diverse but getting to the stage where you can afford to mix it up is slow. Horde factions offer a unique style of gameplay. I prefer them over Norsca due to not having to keep rebuilding razed settlements because of no walls.

    It's a paradox. Maybe those "hordes" would work better as "invasions" aka you don't play just a few army but the "entity/place" that sends them out. Wood elves almost work that way with a difficult to attack base of operations.
    Issue is : should the wastelands be completely immune to retalation, thus making a chaos campaign impossible to really lose ? It may not be that big of an issue, after all it's loreful. But the benefits are clear : your hordes would be destined to fail at some point, the important thing being them causing enough chaos (ahem) and havoc to gather enough favours for a new rounds of invasion even more dangerous.

  • CountTalabeclandCountTalabecland Registered Users Posts: 289
    Lizardmen Blessed Spawnings mechanic seems like a pretty easy copy and paste for campaign achievements unlocking monogod unit. If they are currently awash with Charlemagnes, CA might even consider making new monogod skins rather than a simple recolor.
  • EnforestEnforest Registered Users Posts: 2,167
    1) Horde gameplay sucks in general (AI recolonize everything, slow growth for new armies, replenishment often stops the campaign momentum, not enough resources to keep fighting at diffirent fronts until very late game);
    2) Zero monogod representation (don't tell me that banners called "mark of God" is a monogod mechanic);
    3) Mediocre roster with many monsters missings;
    4) Can't ascend lords into Daemonhood;
    5) No interactions with the world what so ever (Oh, you razed Kislev/Altdorf/Middenheim/Oak Of Ages/Hexoatl? Here's some money, now bugger off);
    6) Can't be played in co-op;

    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • PatriksevePatrikseve Member Registered Users Posts: 1,807
    I think there will be some additions and reworks with game 3 maybe. I think they might actually have one Deamons of Chaos faction and then have LL be part of a specific god tailored to that. They will share some units but also have many unique ones. If they do that I also hope you can turn into another ones service to gain those units instead or aswell. Something like that. But well see what they do with them. WoC they just suffer the game 1 issue of being first out and then as CA found out what people loved and could let loose on the uniqness of other factions they felt a little left behind same with Empire, Greenskins today. But I do think they are fixing that issue with additions. I liked thet Dwarfen and Bretoonian and undead additions. Kemmler is a favourite campaign of mine in the super mega campaign I do use a good mod to redesign the units to look more bretoonian, fits well. Anyway I think there will be great things with game 3.
    Otters007 said:

    Beastmen have very basic campaign mechanics. But I find them so much fun to control in battle that they overcome that. It is so satisfying to see minotaurs barrel roll into things lol.

    Chaos aren't particularly exciting in campaign or battle. A shame, cuz they look awesome.

    I agree undivided is dull compared to god-specific armies. God-specific units have so much flavour.

    Yea while Im not a big fan in campaign of them Im not so fond of horde factions but I know some are. I do love them in skirmish though theres just a great faction thats fun to use. Same with Norsca but they have a great campaign I think to.

  • VoxofWarVoxofWar Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    Chaos was not rushed per se, it simply never was intended to be a playable faction. Instead CA wanted them as the End Game menace...

    Then fan outrage ensues, they quickly make Chaos preorder, more outrage for that ...

    Chaos also is a horde, and this simply does not give any sense of progression.
    Or feeling of power. You hide and evade the most time, sometimes sack a city, raze it, AI recolonizes ...

    What Chaos needs is its Lords choosing Gods to worship, allowing demons to recruit.

    Then the Hordeupgrade phase should take place in the Chaos Wastes mostly. Fighting other Chaos lords for fame and glory. The wastes could maybe also provide “portals“ that allow quick travels to other parts of the map to achieve certain tasks, like razing Itza, or killing a High Elf army etc

    And eventually ... the End Times. Here certain stuff should be achieved. Like taking Middenheim, but you would need or have the option to fulfill several objectives first, to make the quest battle for Middenheim easier

    Also every town you race gets tainted, meaning no easy recolonization by the AI...or player ... so you would slowly turn the world into Chaos wastelands

    Playing Chaos should in the end feel like the final Chapter of Elric of Melnibone ...
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 19,776

    They were pretty boring on tabletop as well. Elite warriors with elite lords and monsters, rush and slash. No more no less.

    Actually, I don't expect much from them on the third part of the series. Even though I find Tzeentch lore quite interesting.

    I roughly agree. Chaos has inherent characteristics that make it in translation to TWW a bit boring.

    I do think CA will do much better with DoC than it did with WoC. They are harder to implement than other races but now I think CA can do better with them.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
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