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Forges are weaks.

Levi_fowl27Levi_fowl27 Posts: 80Registered Users
edited June 19 in General Discussion
So... I am new to Total War Games, in fact TK is my first... If I speak **** take easy, ok?

There is already another post on the subject in the forum.

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/2424750#Comment_2424750

I could have posted on it, but it's so far back that no one would see...

The problem is that the Forges do not offer enough benefits to compete for a space in any city.
Honestly I already have almost two hundred hours of gameplay and I never made one.
I am in the middle of a hyper-aggressive campaign with Ma Teng ...
While I was researching other things about the game I discovered that in previous games you could upgrade weapons and armour.
While good I thought that repeating this old mechanic could be a bit annoying... So I created something new... I guess?
I really would like some other opinions on the subject.


Tier 1 :
Upkeep(30).
Recruitment cost -10% in local commandery.
+10% income from industry.
Government building construction cost reduction -10%.

Tier 2 :
Increase in upkeep(40).
Recruitment cost -10% in local commandery.
+20% income from industry.
Government building construction cost reduction -10%.


Tier 3 (Military Armourer) :
Increase in upkeep. (40 -> 80)
Recruitment cost -15% in local commandery.
+20% income from industry.
Government building construction cost reduction -10%.
Building can only built once.
Unlock "Secrets Upgrades":
  • Adjustable Armour
    4500 Gold.
    5 turns to active.
  • Reinforced Armour
    4500 Gold.
    5 turns to Active.
  • Lighter Armour
    4500 Gold
    5 turns to Active.
Description:
  • Adjustable Armour:
    +20% of his Armour in Melee Evasion to all Light Units.(If his Armour is 10% then he will gain, 2 % Melee Evasion)
    +10% of his Armour in Melee Evasion to all Medium Units.(If his Armour is 40% then he will gain, 4 % Melee Evasion)
    +5% of his Armour in Melee Evasion to all Heavy Units.(If his Armour is 60% then he will gain, 3 % Melee Evasion)

    With straps, buckles and parts of armour divided into interchangeable sections, soldiers can field-adjust their own armour according to their bodies, ensuring a much better fit than other armours, the best fit ensures better mobility that is essential for all combatants.

  • Reinforced Armour
    -3 Speed and +5% Armour to all Light Units.(If his Armour is 10% then he will be with 15%)
    -4 Speed and +6% Armour to all Medium Units.(If his Armour is 40% then he will be with 46%)
    -6 Speed and +8% Armour to all Heavy Units.(If his Armour is 60% then he will be with 68%)

    Chain Mail with doubled rings, greater overlap of lamellar plates, thicker and better leather, larger steel plates tied in more vulnerable places. These are just some of the measures taken to reinforcer armour.

  • Lighter Armour:
    + 3 Speed, Recruitment cost +15% and + 5% Upkeep for all Light Units.
    + 4 Speed, Recruitment cost +30% and + 10% Upkeep for all Medium Units.
    + 6 Speed, Recruitment cost +50% and + 15% Upkeep for all Heavy Units.

    Lightest and highest quality materials are used in the fabrication of armour. This increases not only the price of production but also maintenance.

    More refined steels, higher quality leather, stronger and lighter fabrics, all lightweight and quality, so that weight loss does not interfere with the protection offered.

Only one of the Upgrades can be active each time.

Tier 3 (Military Bow-makers) :
Increase in upkeep. (40 -> 80)
Recruitment cost -15% in local commandery.
+20% income from industry.
Government building construction cost reduction -10%
Building can only built once.
Unlock "Secret Arrows":
  • Military Hook Arrows.
    4000 Gold.
    5 turns to active.
  • Piercing Arrow.
    4500 Gold.
    5 turns to active.
  • Blunt Arrows.
    4000 Gold.
    5 turns to active.

Description:
  • Military Hook Arrows:
    BD: 50
    AP: 0
    If they cause more than 45 damage, they get stuck.
    Stuck Arrows deal 1 damage every 5 seconds until the end of combat.
    Each soldier in a unit can have up to 5 arrows Stuck.

    Originally used to hunt animals of medium and small size, its shape almost isosceles, its thin blade and the angle straight and smooth of the edge make it to causes terrible damage to the meat, in addition curved hooks in the back tips make the arrow to be stuck deeply in the animal causing a continuous bleeding that weakens and often kills an animal even so he is able to escape the hunter, considered very cruel they ended up falling into disuse in the hunt.
    Sometimes some Generals use them against militia and other light enemy units for a devastating effect.

    Unfortunately, or fortunately, the very characteristics that make it so deadly against soft targets, makes them unable to pierce armour enough to get caught in the enemy soldier.


  • Piercing Arrows:
    BD: 5
    AP: 40
    + 50% of Upkeep to all Archer units.

    Its tip is a well-elongated square base pyramide. Made with dark steel, dark steel is hard and rigid, bad for making any kind of long blade, armour plates, and virtually impossible to stretch on a wire to make a chain mail. Since the hardness and the rigidity of the steel make it more brittle.
    However used in this format decreases the chance of breakage, and ensures that the full force of the shot hits a single point, a point that is harder than any armour and sturdy enough to withstand the pressure, giving the arrow tremendous power of penetration.


  • Blunt Arrows:
    BD: 35
    AP: 5
    -40 range.
    Every 100 damage done reduces enemy armour by 1%.
    For a maximum of 30%.

    Its tip is a cone, with the broader circular base pointed at the enemy and the fine base firmly attached to the arrow, with metal rings on the arrow to aid in their own balance and flight.
    The arrow form makes archers have a slightly smaller range, originally made for bow competitions, it was noticed that by putting a little more weight on the arrow, the wide point and not(very) damaging to soft targets caused cracks in hard surfaces.
    In a lamellar armour the strength and hardness of the concussive impact makes the small plates bend and break, destroying them or releasing them much more efficiently than normal arrows or bolts ever could.


Only one type of arrow can be active each time.

Tier 3 (Military Weaponsmith) :
Increase in upkeep. (40->80)
Recruitment cost -15% in local commandery.
+20% income from industry.
Government building construction cost reduction -10%.
Building can only built once.
Unlock "Secret Techniques":
  • Differential hardening:
    5000 Gold.
    5 turns to active.
  • Perfectly balanced:
    5000 Gold.
    5 turns to active.
  • Sharp Edge
    5000 Gold.
    5 turns to active.
Description:
  • Differential hardening:
    +5 AP to all Sword and Spear units.
    +10 BD to all Axe an Ji units.

    During the hardening process a secret technique is used, so that different parts of the blades have different hardnesses.
    With a harder edge and a center, or back, softer the blade is able to withstand much larger forces without cracking, warping or breaking.
    Allowing the soldier to apply even more force on their blows, extracting the maximum from the weapon's potential.


  • Perfectly balanced:
    +10% Attack rate for Sword and Spear Units.
    +10% Armour - Shield for Axe and Ji Units.

    The balance of the weapon is carefully and meticulously done, in such a way as to guarantee to the soldier an easier handling and better perfomance in general.
    The process is simple, but annoying and repetitive, but in the end it makes a significant difference.


  • Sharp Edge:
    +10 BD to all Sword and Spear Units.
    +5AP to all Axe and Ji Units.

    The angle of the edge is made in such a way as to maximize the cutting capacity.
    Long blades get incredible cuts with these edges however, this leaves the blade of longer blades more vulnerable to kneading, bending or flaking, while short blades gain a greater penetration capacity without suffering as much.

Only one of the Techniques can be active each time.

Comments

  • iriyasiriyas Posts: 59Registered Users
    there are a few buildings that are not worthwhile but if that's the case i just don't build it. sometimes i build stuff for role playing reasons.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Posts: 1,508Registered Users
    Yeah I also don't make forges, I just make private workshops when I want to boost industry income.
  • bingbangbongbingbangbong Member Posts: 576Registered Users
    A lot of the buildings are necessary in order to unlock research.

    Also they tend to be only useful in certain commanderies.

    For example the forge boosts industry so you would build it alongside state workshops, which provide up to 500 base income at tier 5 and preferably in a commandery with a toolmaker which also provides up to 500 base industry income.

    That way if you had a tier 5 state workshop and tier 5 toolmaker, the 10% industry boost from a tier 1 forge would provide an additional 100 income per turn, which is only at tier one. That then becomes a pretty useful building to have just for the industry boost alone and ignoring any other perks it might give.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,393Registered Users
    Forges are always trumped by Commerce because of artisans.

    After thinking about the issue for a while I believe CA should just bring ancillary crafting in the game a bit like what the dwarves have in Warhammer titles
  • united84united84 Posts: 614Registered Users
    The reduced recruitment costs is really negligible since retinues do not disappear, it can be inherited and muster. Yep, they need to buff military forges.
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaPosts: 2,272Registered Users
    Rewan said:

    Forges are always trumped by Commerce because of artisans.

    After thinking about the issue for a while I believe CA should just bring ancillary crafting in the game a bit like what the dwarves have in Warhammer titles

    That's already accomplished by the rarer craftsmen buildings.

    Perhaps buffing the recruitment cost reduction and economic benefit may be a better idea, along with maybe a 1-2% global armour bonus or some other such bonus at the highest levels.
  • ScratcH1ScratcH1 Posts: 164Registered Users
    cool_lad said:

    Rewan said:

    Forges are always trumped by Commerce because of artisans.

    After thinking about the issue for a while I believe CA should just bring ancillary crafting in the game a bit like what the dwarves have in Warhammer titles

    That's already accomplished by the rarer craftsmen buildings.

    Perhaps buffing the recruitment cost reduction and economic benefit may be a better idea, along with maybe a 1-2% global armour bonus or some other such bonus at the highest levels.
    That's definitely an interesting idea IMO. Tier 3 forges can apply like +5% armor for each unit type but they can only be built once, like the faction palace.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,393Registered Users
    edited June 19
    That's already accomplished by the rarer craftsmen buildings.


    Wrong. I'm talking about an overhaul of the ancillary system alltogether where these craftsmen buildings would still be necessary to get unique equipment but where we could actually get things that are more in-line with our needs by effectively removing randomization.

    To put it in perspective :

    Right now everything is random. (which can actually make a campaign start much easier than another one depending on your luck on the 4 random ancillaries you and your neighbours get at turn 1)

    What I would like to transition to is a system where buildings would passively give you a ressource for "crafting" ancillaries every turn.

    So for exemple a School would give you X points for common to exceptionnal scholar-type ancillaries
    Inn and Marketplace would give you X points for common to exceptionnal merchant-type ancillaries
    Confucian Temples would give you X points for common to exceptionnal religious-type ancillaries
    Forges would give you X points for common to exceptionnal (BUT NOT UNIQUE) melee weapons/bows/armour ancillaries

    And so on.

    If I want to say, get the Herdsmen which is a common ancillary I would need to have some agricultural buildings and then after a few turns use X agricultural points + some money to get him.

    But if I wanted say something better like a Legalist Fanatic (which is of exceptionnal rarity) then I would need X administrative points and X scholarly points + a bit more money to get him.

    Crafting a bow would only require some bow-points
    Crafting a composite bow would require bow-points and the lumberwood ressource
    Crafting an imperial bow would require bow-points, artisan-points and lumberwood
    And crafting a UNIQUE bow would require bow-points, artisan-points, lumberwood and points obtained by having a legendary weapon maker

    Do you get what I meant ?
  • Levi_fowl27Levi_fowl27 Posts: 80Registered Users
    I realized two things by reading this whole discussion.

    First:
    I think I exaggerated the piercing arrows.


    Archer Militia with piercing arrow (fire rate = 12) => 480-AP 60-BD = 540 dmg
    All other Archers with piercing arrow (fr = 15) => 600-AP 75-BD = 675 dmg
    Crossbowmen (fr=7) => 315-AP 140-BD = 455 dmg
    Thunder of Jian (fr = 12) => 540-AP 240-BD = 780 dmg


    But not as much as the CA exaggerated with the Thunder of Jian...

    If I change the damage to:

    AP:30
    BD:0

    Archer Militia with piercing arrow (fire rate = 12) => 360-AP 0-BD = 360 dmg
    All other Archers with piercing arrow (fr = 15) => 450-AP 0-BD = 450 dmg

    Strong but not overpower.
    With the buffs received by a Strategist a Crossbowmen will end up being a better AP damage dealer.
    In addition, Crossbowmens have much more armour, making them still quite viable.



    Second:

    Nobody gave feedback on the material I created... That...

    Well I'll use an Old School meme to express my feelings about it.

  • lylinlylin Member Posts: 91Registered Users
    Rewan said:

    That's already accomplished by the rarer craftsmen buildings.


    Wrong. I'm talking about an overhaul of the ancillary system alltogether where these craftsmen buildings would still be necessary to get unique equipment but where we could actually get things that are more in-line with our needs by effectively removing randomization.

    To put it in perspective :

    Right now everything is random. (which can actually make a campaign start much easier than another one depending on your luck on the 4 random ancillaries you and your neighbours get at turn 1)

    What I would like to transition to is a system where buildings would passively give you a ressource for "crafting" ancillaries every turn.

    So for exemple a School would give you X points for common to exceptionnal scholar-type ancillaries
    Inn and Marketplace would give you X points for common to exceptionnal merchant-type ancillaries
    Confucian Temples would give you X points for common to exceptionnal religious-type ancillaries
    Forges would give you X points for common to exceptionnal (BUT NOT UNIQUE) melee weapons/bows/armour ancillaries

    And so on.

    If I want to say, get the Herdsmen which is a common ancillary I would need to have some agricultural buildings and then after a few turns use X agricultural points + some money to get him.

    But if I wanted say something better like a Legalist Fanatic (which is of exceptionnal rarity) then I would need X administrative points and X scholarly points + a bit more money to get him.

    Crafting a bow would only require some bow-points
    Crafting a composite bow would require bow-points and the lumberwood ressource
    Crafting an imperial bow would require bow-points, artisan-points and lumberwood
    And crafting a UNIQUE bow would require bow-points, artisan-points, lumberwood and points obtained by having a legendary weapon maker

    Do you get what I meant ?
    I like your idea. I too feel that the forge and its upgrade line with its tech requisite is just.. hard to justify the investment compared to other buildings/other parts of the tech tree.
  • Levi_fowl27Levi_fowl27 Posts: 80Registered Users
    edited June 19
    Rewan said:

    That's already accomplished by the rarer craftsmen buildings.


    Wrong. I'm talking about an overhaul of the ancillary system alltogether where these craftsmen buildings would still be necessary to get unique equipment but where we could actually get things that are more in-line with our needs by effectively removing randomization.

    To put it in perspective :

    Right now everything is random. (which can actually make a campaign start much easier than another one depending on your luck on the 4 random ancillaries you and your neighbours get at turn 1)

    What I would like to transition to is a system where buildings would passively give you a ressource for "crafting" ancillaries every turn.

    So for exemple a School would give you X points for common to exceptionnal scholar-type ancillaries
    Inn and Marketplace would give you X points for common to exceptionnal merchant-type ancillaries
    Confucian Temples would give you X points for common to exceptionnal religious-type ancillaries
    Forges would give you X points for common to exceptionnal (BUT NOT UNIQUE) melee weapons/bows/armour ancillaries

    And so on.

    If I want to say, get the Herdsmen which is a common ancillary I would need to have some agricultural buildings and then after a few turns use X agricultural points + some money to get him.

    But if I wanted say something better like a Legalist Fanatic (which is of exceptionnal rarity) then I would need X administrative points and X scholarly points + a bit more money to get him.

    Crafting a bow would only require some bow-points
    Crafting a composite bow would require bow-points and the lumberwood ressource
    Crafting an imperial bow would require bow-points, artisan-points and lumberwood
    And crafting a UNIQUE bow would require bow-points, artisan-points, lumberwood and points obtained by having a legendary weapon maker

    Do you get what I meant ?


    I really liked your idea.

    It makes a lot of sense and gives Resources(which for me is an underutilized mechanic) a greater utility that fits well with other mechanics in the game.
    In addition to it, really give a utility and competitiveness for Forges.

    What is the whole point of this discussion.

    Your idea is also a good buff for more situational constructions, like Schools and Temples.
    The problem is that all other buildings would also gain this utility and competitiveness.

    In Romance Mod, the Forges would become competitive enough to be much more used.
    But in Records Mod where the Generals are not demi-gods I think the Forges would lose a lot of that competitiveness. While the others buildings will, at least, retain their gains.
    Making the Forges still weak in Records Mod.

    But despite that, I really enjoyed your idea.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,393Registered Users
    edited June 19
    Well actually there's a quick fix for that, you make it so weapon/armor ancillaries actually give retinue bonuses.

    ie :
    Glaives could give +5 linear scaling per rarity level charge bonus to the retinue.
    Ceremonial swords could give +8 linear scaling per rarity level morale to the retinue.
    Axes could give +2 linear scaling per rarity level Armor piercing to the retinue
    Great Axes could give +4 linear scaling per rarity level Armor piercing to the retinue at the cost of reducing melee attack rate by -2 per rarity level
    etc...

    Same stuff with armor to increase the armor of the retinue (sometimes at the cost of melee evasion or vice-versa)
  • Levi_fowl27Levi_fowl27 Posts: 80Registered Users
    Yep, that solves the problem. *thumbs up*
    Cunning thinking.
    I usually just overthinking, as you can see in my first post, cunning thinking is more rare for me. :D
  • Vend2Vend2 Posts: 6Registered Users
    я так и не понял .Оружие ,броня , луки для отрядов модернизируются с прокачкой оружейных кузниц ?
  • Levi_fowl27Levi_fowl27 Posts: 80Registered Users
    Vend2 said:

    я так и не понял .Оружие ,броня , луки для отрядов модернизируются с прокачкой оружейных кузниц ?

    I do not know how to read Russian.
    But using Google Translate:

    Vend2:
    "I did not understand. Weapons, armor, bows for the troops are being upgraded with the pumping of weapons forges?"


    If the translation is 100% correct then the short answer is:

    Exactly, that's right.


    The longest answer:

    When the forge reaches Tier 3, you could pay to implement one, and only one, of those improvements in all your Armies.
    So the high cost, and the 5 turns (a year in game) to be implemented.


    You could only create one of each type of Tier 3 Forge.
    In other words, you could have only one Military Armorer, one Military Bow-makers and one Military Weaponsmith.
    And each one can only give you one of the three improvements.

    So you can only have 3 of the 9 improvements.

    However, you could change the chosen improvement later.
    But for this you would have to pay for the upgrade and wait for the 5 turns.
    Even if you wanted to choose an improvement you had previously used.



    In the Real World, if a Kingdom wanted its entire army to have access to "Piercing Arrows."
    They would have to build new forges, hire more blacksmiths, secure access to more steel, get more coal etc... All this just to produce them.
    Then you would have to take care of the Storage, and Distribution of the "Piercing Arrows" without compromising the storage and distribution of the normal arrows.
    Which means more warehouses, more wagons of supplies, more soldiers to protect the supplies ...
    A new giant logistics chain is being created, this is always expensive.
    Even when other chains are cannibalized to relieve the work.

    I hope I have taken your doubts. :)

    Reviewing my post now I see that it was kind of confusing... Maybe a better edition will help, I'll do it this weekend.
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