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TWW 3 a HOT balance issue READ PLZ

DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users
edited June 20 in Balancing Discussions
@CA I don't want to ruin your happy illusion but when TWW3 comes out there will be greater daemons and other certain units on factions so let's pick the example of Bloodthirster, how is he gonna fly since he mostly walks as a unit in TT? You need to completely change the fly mode. Flying units should hover instead. Salsicha already asked for it and all agreed it was correct. It's ok it's not implemented yet but for TWW3, which is a new game, it has to happen. All flying units should be on ground and get a hover ability, even bats. In the previous 2 TWW games it wasn't that much of necessity but for TWW3 it is a must fix. Dawn of War 1 had a good hover system, check assault marines etc.

P. S. Actually we need a fly option and a second stamina only for flying, which will recharge slowly and only will affect flying, the regular stamina will not be related to flying.
Post edited by DandalusXVII on
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Comments

  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,160Registered Users
    They will probably make the blood thirster like Malagor and make him not fly. Maybe he should get a jump ability similar to some dawn of war 1 units like assault marines and stormboyz.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users

    They will probably make the blood thirster like Malagor and make him not fly. Maybe he should get a jump ability similar to some dawn of war 1 units like assault marines and stormboyz.

    The jump ability is the hover ability. We all know this requires a major rebalance but it must happen.
  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Posts: 441Registered Users
    Units with Fly on the tabletop that aren't flying units in this game should have a flying leap-like ability in Total War. It would deal well with the issue of either it flies or it doesn't we have now and would be fitting for something like a Bloodthirster to dive headfirst into the enemy.
  • saellsaell Posts: 471Registered Users
    Necrosphinx could also fly in tt but look what they did to it :(
  • ystyst Posts: 6,075Registered Users
    Mournfangs cav, cute demons, amazing chaos dwf: oh its gonna be so much fun. 4 new factions with totally new playstyle. Hopefully CA make them as insanely strong as possible.

    Afterall chaos deamons has always been the #1 top faction for pretty much what 3 decades or so, prolly even longer. I mean the entire old world ended with absolutely dominating one sidedly anyway.

    Great shiftaway from denials qqing about perfectly balance units. No more boring talks about mediocre mammoths when uve mournfang cav.

    And the 4th mystery faction, my gonna be interesting. Hopefully mercenaries with light art, i mean can u imagine cannons with cav speed. Gonna make jezz looks like militias haha
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  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 331Registered Users
    I think it shouldn't be too hard to make a flying unit capable of landing on command. The coding and graphics are already there for flyers to walk. I think this will be very good to have, as currently fliers are in a weird spot with ground melee troops only being able to support them when they can land on a nearby enemy with a charge command. It's a main reason VC's match-ups are so lopsided at the moment and why in many match-ups you have to go air-heavy or not take much air at all. The current implementation of forced flying is honestly just very silly.
  • wunderb0rwunderb0r Junior Member Posts: 417Registered Users
    saell said:

    Necrosphinx could also fly in tt but look what they did to it :(

    excuse me what??
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    Also don't forget malagor. Beastman's sacrifice should not be forgotten.

    I like ur idea.
    but I am worried that more micros will increase. so I guess, don't want people to need more micro.
  • hanenhanen Posts: 348Registered Users
    Actually this could turn out to be a great mechanic.

    If there was a "stay on the ground" button it should automatically be activated when you only have flying units left in your army. And you should of course not be able to change to fly mode when this happens.
  • ExarchExarch Posts: 575Registered Users
    Actually, I agree with CA's original balancing decision making flying units always fly unless in melee. It keeps things interesting by making the ability to fly a trade off instead of a direct advantage in all occasions.

    It means flying units always have the disadvantages of being exposed and unable to hide behind units and terrain as well as being vulnerable to enemy air units without speed or fire support, as well as being unable to hold ground for zonal defense
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited June 17
    hanen said:

    Actually this could turn out to be a great mechanic.

    If there was a "stay on the ground" button it should automatically be activated when you only have flying units left in your army. And you should of course not be able to change to fly mode when this happens.

    That looks good. And the one thing that should not be missed is that the flying units have lower stats than the ground units. Imagine if a Pegasus Knight or Dragon is charging with other cavalry or monsters of the same rank(each other), they will have to raise basic stats, and gain penalize own flight mode, or give a buff that will benefit it from ground mode.

    And if flyer free to switch to flight mode, there is need to have some safety device, over the of the cycle charging is not stronger.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,372Registered Users
    Its not really that important to be honest
    If he walked mostly on TT, then he will most likely just walk, maybe with some fool animation and good speed


  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Posts: 525Registered Users
    I agree with the OP and the general sentiment that flying should be togelable in WW3 just like walking and running currently is.

    Being forced in the sky flying in circles because the enemy brought a heavier flying force is silly.

    It would help units such as Malagor.

    Just make it so it drains endurance and ut will be fine.
  • c0rvusc0rvus Posts: 203Registered Users
    CA_Ato said:

    We've been through these ideas and unfortunately had to dismiss them for various reasons. Having fliers just jump from ground to ground position would break as soon as you give your flyer continuous move orders while airborne. Killings fliers off when exhausted is not very elegant, forcing them to land is neither elegant nor predictable. AI and pathfinding would need to take all of this into consideration too. The current implementation was the only one doable in the time we had.

    We can experiment internally with a land button and consider it for multiplayer only, but the priority of this will be fairly low. Having two different flying mechanics for campaign and MP is not ideal either.

    Kr, A

    CA_Ato said:

    We dismissed the hovering / temporary flying design as it added a lot of cost to AI and opened up a can of worms, e.g. what if their fly-time runs out while above a no-go area?

    You made the same thread a year ago and got the respond from Ato. There's reason why they chose to streamline some of the process and if I were you I'd do some research about the pathfinding logic scripts before you misjudge the difficulties. Also I don't think the topic has much to do with actual balance of the current game, rather a philosophical problem for the designers imo.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users

    Units with Fly on the tabletop that aren't flying units in this game should have a flying leap-like ability in Total War. It would deal well with the issue of either it flies or it doesn't we have now and would be fitting for something like a Bloodthirster to dive headfirst into the enemy.

    All flying units should get a flying hovering ability which drains stamina, so there will still be air fights but not air isolation. Also stamina would be a factor in these fights, the exhausted unit in an air fight will have to land unable to attack on air so it will receive blows from the less tired unit.
  • ReymReym Posts: 479Registered Users
    edited June 18
    Honestly I think they will have way more balancing issues to look at for Wh3 to rework an entire system which is working, it has its issues but a new one like you are asking may have at least as much problems as the current one.

    Wh3 already got a good amount of balancing/design challenge, here is a little list (all is pure speculation ofc):

    -Ogres: A video was already made by Indypride so I will just sum it up here by saying "Hello, we are a race made of 90% of large units will it cause some problems ? Yes."

    -Chaos dwarves: A roster with a lot of various options, maybe some key aspect like their range firepower (infantry) will be balanced in order to not be too all around (a blunderbuss treatment, low range but high damages).

    -Daemons: The daemon roster is likely to be split to avoid them from being an almost perfect race asymmetry speaking. But this goes further.

    (I will assume that monogods armies got both their warriors and daemons)
    -Khorne: This one can quickly end up being all about its skull cannons and skullcrusher cav if heavier infantry armies end up being a bad choice is every situation. Like vs non rushers because they will get exploit (but this can be ok) and even vs rushers because Khorne may not be the best at it (hello greenskins).

    -Nurgle: Tanky units, poison ... HP drain effect(/mortis effect) with some fliers and other mobile means to avoid kiting or range playstyles from threatening them. Hope it doesn't turn into WH1 VC 2.0. (and in a blob race in general)

    -Slannesh: Gotta go fast with high damage but being squishy if I get it correctly. Maybe it will have some doomfire warlock issues and WH1 forsaken feeling tho I'm not too worried about them. Being fast with good damages will (in theory) keep them competitive while being squishy allows the opponent to punish them in a meaningful way. Maybe the faction will struggle vs blobs or too defensive stuff in general (it has chariots tho which can help).

    -Tzeench: Maybe the one that CA will struggle the most with because of how much flamethrowers the faction has (and this could even be an issue in SP if too much of the killing power is on them). Currently flamethrowers while being able to deal a lot of damages even against armored units generaly end up doing very little because of many issues we all know like the arc of fire, the range and the mobility of the unit (fmaybe the flamers wont have the mobility issue).
    It could be half solved by making one of the fire of tzeench (most likely the mono target/anti large one) not a flamethrow but the fireballs the slamanders got. That way at least the faction would be balance around the fact that most of the anti large is done with this fire of Tzeench while the anti infantry mainly by warriors and chariots of Tzeench.


    So yeah here are a few eventual issues CA will have to deal with (or already is) and that's only general stuff since outside tzeench I did not even go in more unit specific issues (as it would imply to know their mechanics such as passives and actives abilities especially when it comes to lords).
    Post edited by Reym on
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • FrookFrook Posts: 146Registered Users
    edited June 18
    The other issue is of course monstrous infantry is likely to be useless because they have no role in this game. Because anything they can do, cavalry does better usually for cheaper while also doing other things better as well while being less vulnerable to missiles too. They are only used if the faction doesn't have any cavalry at all, mostly to perform the role of cavalry but worse.

    As long as infantry is so weak to cavalry in this game, monstrous infantry will not find its place unless you stat them extremely generously. They really need to adjust mass of infantry, regular cavalry shouldn't be able to launch infantry back so much, only monstrous units should be able to do that.

    I really hope that CA passes a check on mass of infantry and monstrous units in WH3.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,181Registered Users
    Frook said:

    The other issue is of course monstrous infantry is likely to be useless because they have no role in this game. Because anything they can do, cavalry does better usually for cheaper while also doing other things better as well while being less vulnerable to missiles too. They are only used if the faction doesn't have any cavalry at all, mostly to perform the role of cavalry but worse.

    As long as infantry is so weak to cavalry in this game, monstrous infantry will not find its place unless you stat them extremely generously. They really need to adjust mass of infantry, regular cavalry shouldn't be able to launch infantry back so much, only monstrous units should be able to do that.

    I really hope that CA passes a check on mass of infantry and monstrous units in WH3.

    ? Monstrous infantry is working perfectly fine, I use it all the time and it's strong and versatile.
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,010Registered Users
    edited June 19
    Frook said:

    The other issue is of course monstrous infantry is likely to be useless because they have no role in this game. Because anything they can do, cavalry does better usually for cheaper while also doing other things better as well while being less vulnerable to missiles too. They are only used if the faction doesn't have any cavalry at all, mostly to perform the role of cavalry but worse.

    As long as infantry is so weak to cavalry in this game, monstrous infantry will not find its place unless you stat them extremely generously. They really need to adjust mass of infantry, regular cavalry shouldn't be able to launch infantry back so much, only monstrous units should be able to do that.

    I really hope that CA passes a check on mass of infantry and monstrous units in WH3.

    what??
    - see fimir, skinwolves, mournghuls, minotaurs, rat ogre, tree kins all the time
    - occasionally see trolls, armored trolls , sepulcharl stalkers , animated hulks
    - kroxigors sometimes get picked too
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Posts: 1,744Registered Users
    Frook said:

    The other issue is of course monstrous infantry is likely to be useless because they have no role in this game. Because anything they can do, cavalry does better usually for cheaper while also doing other things better as well while being less vulnerable to missiles too. They are only used if the faction doesn't have any cavalry at all, mostly to perform the role of cavalry but worse.

    As long as infantry is so weak to cavalry in this game, monstrous infantry will not find its place unless you stat them extremely generously. They really need to adjust mass of infantry, regular cavalry shouldn't be able to launch infantry back so much, only monstrous units should be able to do that.

    I really hope that CA passes a check on mass of infantry and monstrous units in WH3.

    lol?
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,358Registered Users
    I think the ogre kingdom worry is grossly exaggerated. They're a race with black powder weapons, so chances are any halberd unit that would pose a big threat to them is gonna get smooshed. It might be a smidge tougher in some cases, but ultimately I dont' see them as being any more troubled than dwarfs currently are.
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  • another505another505 Posts: 1,010Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    I think the ogre kingdom worry is grossly exaggerated. They're a race with black powder weapons, so chances are any halberd unit that would pose a big threat to them is gonna get smooshed. It might be a smidge tougher in some cases, but ultimately I dont' see them as being any more troubled than dwarfs currently are.

    I think it would be a great chance for them to change into three sizes
    Inf, Cav, and Monster


    some anti monster like Kharb and sphinx has a whooping 30/35 anti large which also makes them really good against cavs. which makes it very hard to pin them down with mass

    and some cavs like questing knights should be great against monsters specifically.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,075Registered Users
    Highly unlikely, it would do nothing but add an extra unneeded layer of complexity. I mean strong vs small and vs large is simple enough. Some units r outright garbage when not fighting intended target like poleman at arms, with 3 categories system they would simply become even more trashier than they r, since they would have significantly less targets to kill.

    It will simply shift generalist to even greater heights, units such as drag prince will pretty much go more op than they already are at such a dirt cheap price, now that they dont even have to worry about half of those antis turning into anti monster and not anti cav. Easily rekt a $2000 terrorgheist prolly not even losing half of their hp.

    Units like grails are only used because they got anti, without those just another trash $1500 cav that get rekt by $1200 sun knight.

    Anyway ppl can speculate about all the magical pro and cons of having it. Highly doubt CA would do that, it would mean complete destruction of 3 yrs of balancing since war 1. Unless they go all out and reinvent the wheel, not gonna happen on a totalwar title.
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  • another505another505 Posts: 1,010Registered Users
    yst said:

    Highly unlikely, it would do nothing but add an extra unneeded layer of complexity. I mean strong vs small and vs large is simple enough. Some units r outright garbage when not fighting intended target like poleman at arms, with 3 categories system they would simply become even more trashier than they r, since they would have significantly less targets to kill.

    It will simply shift generalist to even greater heights, units such as drag prince will pretty much go more op than they already are at such a dirt cheap price, now that they dont even have to worry about half of those antis turning into anti monster and not anti cav. Easily rekt a $2000 terrorgheist prolly not even losing half of their hp.

    Units like grails are only used because they got anti, without those just another trash $1500 cav that get rekt by $1200 sun knight.

    Anyway ppl can speculate about all the magical pro and cons of having it. Highly doubt CA would do that, it would mean complete destruction of 3 yrs of balancing since war 1. Unless they go all out and reinvent the wheel, not gonna happen on a totalwar title.

    most units like spear/halberd infantry and cavs can have the same amount of anti cav and monster.
    But specialized units like anti monsters like questing, kharb, , arach queen, sphinx and so on, should have anti monster instead.

    Ofc, i do think chances are low but thats why i think ogre kingdom will provide some sliver of hope
  • ReymReym Posts: 479Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    I think the ogre kingdom worry is grossly exaggerated. They're a race with black powder weapons, so chances are any halberd unit that would pose a big threat to them is gonna get smooshed. It might be a smidge tougher in some cases, but ultimately I dont' see them as being any more troubled than dwarfs currently are.

    Well I will quickly develop there. I have no position about them being either UP or OP "by design" once released. However I fear that it risk to end up to be a race with few assets to turn around in order to balance them.
    Their range units may not be able to get rid of most AL threats and I don't think ogre range will be able to best all range units, opponents range units who are alsoa good answer to the melee large. On the other hand those range units could have the issues bowshabti had once released, which is to be good enough in melee to get rid of a good list of units in melee.
    Their options to go wide seem very limited with only chaff. And if this chaff break your ogres are isolated.
    On the opposite again, some people predict their single entities to be quite strong like shaggoth and mammoth strong, this could lead to some deathstar strats.

    I will stop on the shaddy assumptions and simply say that: I find the ogre roster to have very few levers to allow the dev to find a solution to balance them well and not ending to swap between too good and too bad every patch.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • another505another505 Posts: 1,010Registered Users
    If you think about how dwarves and bretonnia having the same predictable counters, it will be similar to ogre kingdom.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,075Registered Users
    edited June 19
    Should be fine, they got truckloads of gnolblars to screen. I mean we know they gonna get mournfang cav anyway. So thats gonna wipe inf that anti large unless they redesign charge de

    Cant wait to see how they design mournfangs, pretty much the top #1 cav in game. Only ones close to it would be chosen knights with lance if CA wants to implement the new chaos this way.

    Cant wait for orge kingdom, they r so gonna be frikking fun to play with. Gonna be pretty bad for chaos, beastman and orks.
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  • 39821739175248623982173917524862 Posts: 792Registered Users
    I believe some ogre units might have a trait that ignores charge defense or are like mammoths and have a big impact hit on their initial charge even against charge defense.
    I'm sure CA will have enough time to figure out a unique playstyle for ogres and the rest of the WH3 factions that might come.
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Posts: 549Registered Users
    Ogre Kingdoms' glaring weakness is similar to Bretonnia's - predominantly large, making them vulnerable to anti-large and missiles. But as with Bretonnia, they can compensate with breadth and quality of large options, missile play, and small entity screens. If anything a monstrous infantry-focused roster should be inherently more flexible than a cavalry-focused one, plus they have their own powerful cavalry and better ranged options than Bretonnia.

    Likewise, Chaos Dwarfs shouldn't be a great problem, as they're essentially Dwarfs but with some of the glaring weaknesses (no real magic, very limited speed) removed.

    Kislev, Cathay or any other human faction are likely to be broadly similar to the Empire in that they have a well rounded roster. The one fairly tricky balance issue I see for Kislev, whose roster is a known factor, is the combined pike-and-shot unit, though it shouldn't be too hard to extrapolate from Seaguard or the Black Spot.

    Perhaps the most interesting one is Daemons. In TT they have a 5+ (i.e. 33%) ward save. This might be implemented as physical resist, in which case there will be an issue balancing them versus magic damage. CA will also have to decide how to implement special rules such as Daemonic Instability, which in TT gave a small % chance for a total unit wipe when a round of combat was lost.
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