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Which unit size counters which unit size?

grifkgrifk Posts: 8Registered Users
edited June 20 in General Discussion
I did some unit testing that surprised me and which I found interesting.

There was no cycle charging, just the initial charge, period.

I tested a greenskin giant vs a unit of hammerer. The giant is AP and the hammerers have a good armour. The hammerers are AP and the giant has no armour. Plus, the giant costs more money. So I thought the giant counters hammerers and costs more, it will wrecks them.

Yet, the hammerers won by quite a good marging. But the giant is known to be trash, right?

Then, I tested the giant against minotaurs GW. The minotaurs are AL, so a giant is a good matchup for them. Again, the result was not the one expected, the giant won clearly, even if the margin was not great. (The minotaurs had nearly no HP when they fled, I placed a lord near them for leadership, the loss is not due to leadership).

Then, I tested the minotaurs GW against the same hammerers that beat the giant. The minotaurs wrecked the hammerers.

The giant was supposed to beat the hammerers, it lost.
The minotaurs GW were supposed to beat the giant, they lost
The minotaurs GW performed very very very well against the hammerers, with there BvL ineffective, when the giant struggled against the hammerers (and it is not the giant which is trash, as they beat the minotaurs).


What I can see is that unit size matters a lot in a matchup. Armor-no armor, large-small-BvI-BvL and cost are not enough to deduce which unit beat an other in a matchup.

The giant struggled against the hammerers because it could not use all of his damages due to the hammerers small health per entity and performed well against the minotaurs because each strike could make more damages. Not all hammers could hit the giant but the dps loss hit harder the giant than the hammerers
The minotaurs struggled against the giant because not all of them could hit the giant but all the minotaurs could hit the hammerers. There, the dps gain (more hammerers could hit back the minotaurs) was more profitable to the minotaurs

In your experience, what unit size is more effective against an other? It is more complicated thran the more number the better or the fewer number the better.

Single entity seems to be better against monstruous infantery, monstruous infantery against infantery, and numerous units against single entitys, did you notice the same thing?

What performs better against cavalry or monstruous cavalry? For each unit size (infantery:120 , cavalry, monstruous cavalry, monstruous infantery, single entities), which unit size is the hard counter?
In each matchup, what will matters is the % of its damage output than each unit will be able to deliver, but it is not easy to predict to which unit it will benefit.


This coul be particurarly helpful for example with tomb kings, as they have 4 AL units in there roster (spearmen not included), all with different unit size.

NB: I do not feel the mass played a huge role in the tests, maybe il helped the minotaurs GW a little against the hammerers but the marging was really huge.

Comments

  • Firkraag888Firkraag888 Posts: 898Registered Users
    edited June 20
    Wow i got a headache trying to read that.
  • Unruly_MarmiteUnruly_Marmite Junior Member Posts: 147Registered Users
    I believe it's the splash. The Giant splashes damage to about 5 units I think, so it basically overkills the Hammerers and wastes a lot of its damage, while against Minotaurs the Giant deals enough hurt to kill one, which is a far larger drop in overall strength than one or two Hammerers. Contrastingly, the Minotaurs kill Hammerers without wasting as much damage and because there are more of them they get far more attacks in. Plus, Minotaurs GW are highly effective against Hammerers anyway. The BvL is irrelevant, it's the good attack to get through the defence and the AP to bypass the armour that really matters.
  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,247Registered Users
    Giants are weird because they are easily tarpitted, whereas their look, animations and, hum general "mythology" tends to depict them as infantry blenders.

    In practice in game, swift monsters with annoying splash attacks are known to be the real danger, like the famous Tomb Scorpion.

    It's an interesting discussion I think. My own experience is single entity monsters are over performing in single players because they are easy to micro out of complicated situations and can be easilty supported, whereas in static situations, many infantry units would actually win or have only close losses against them.
  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Posts: 609Registered Users
    Giants have 9465 health, 65 MA, 30 MD, 600 damage, 0.75 AP ratio, a max splash of 11, and a 4 second attack interval.

    Hammerers have 75 models per unit, 92 health per model, 46 MA, 35 MD, 0.75 AP ratio, and a 4.2 second attack interval, though that is somewhat less important.

    So the first thing to consider, what is giant chance to hit versus the infantry? It starts out as 35 + 30 = 65%. But once exhausted, the 65 MA will drop to 45 and hit chance accordingly to 45%. This essentially means that at fresh status, the effective output from a giant is two thirds and once exhausted it is just shy of half.

    Now let's consider the attack itself. 600 damage divided by 11 is 54.5, probably rounded to 55. That is way insufficient to kill a dwarf in one hit. Not really enough to kill anything worth killing in one hit, which I suspect is part of the reason why they struggle so much when dealing with crowds on their own. Against hammerers, it may not even be enough to kill a model in two hits, depending on how armour damage reduction plays out.

    Then there's the giant's attack animations. This is observation only, but it appears to me that the giant have rather sluggish animations that don't push all that many models around and take a long time to complete. Meanwhile, the giant is surrounded by hammerers with a good chance to hit it and they will all keep chopping away since the giant doesn't do much to protect itself.

    So all in all, I am not surprised that the giant loses badly versus hammerers. Nothing really indicates that it should do all that well. Incidentally, pretty much all large single entity units have a hard time when surrounded by high MA infantry, particularly when said infantry is fairly hard to kill off quickly. I'm fairly sure that if you just leave a warsphinx at it, it won't really enjoy a unit of hammerers either.

    Of course, you really don't have to leave your big single entities just grinding it out against elite infantry, as the single entities can disengage without too much trouble and line up for a new charge.
  • CountTalabeclandCountTalabecland Posts: 171Registered Users
    This makes me think, is there a giant v giant attack animation or do they just hit each other on the ankles?
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Posts: 199Registered Users
    edited June 20

    This makes me think, is there a giant v giant attack animation or do they just hit each other on the ankles?



    You are most welcome... you did mean big metal giants right? If not...




    Yes, I damn well would!
  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Posts: 202Registered Users

    This makes me think, is there a giant v giant attack animation or do they just hit each other on the ankles?

    They did originally did yes, but with the Tomb Kings dlc drop, they got Giant v Giant animations. Although it does not outright replace the hitting the ankle animation, its a additional animation that plays sometimes.
  • LamentationsLamentations Posts: 33Registered Users
    edited June 20
    Ingr8 said:

    This makes me think, is there a giant v giant attack animation or do they just hit each other on the ankles?



    You are most welcome... you did mean big metal giants right? If not...


    He said giants vs giants not hiero titans. :wink:
  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Posts: 638Registered Users
    No matter the specific reason, one of the first things you learn in TWW combat is that single-entity monsters die quickly, or at least take massive amounts of damage, when sourrounded by swarms of enemy infantry. I currently play Norsca and embed all my giants into my main infantry line, also grouping them together.

    Giants still perform not that well, getting not many kills, compared to much more effective units like mammoths. But the giants also take almost no damage even in close battles where other units get almost wiped out. I wouldn't even recruit new giants if they died because of that, but they just don't, haven't lost a single one in the whole campaign.
  • davor999davor999 Posts: 71Registered Users
    There are other elements of the match up you haven’t considered yet,
    The Hammerers are elite damage dealers (55 weapon damage), but relatively low skilled, only 34 Melee defense.
    This is a bad matchup for the Giant, who with huge HP, very high Attack Skill but low defense, is designed to destroy elite high skill/low damage units, and also create absolute chaos with his high mass charging around.

    The Giant would fare better against Swordmaster of Hoeth for example, even though Swordmasters would also easily beat Hammerers.

    For the Giant v Minotaur matchup the anti large is going to waste as the Giant has such low defense that the Anti-Large isn’t needed. Their lower overall damage hurts them as they can’t get through the Giants huge health pool.
    Minotaurs also are high speed, and can pin the Giant to allow other units to attack, but those don’t come into play in 1v1

    For the Hammerers vs Minotaurs, the armor/AP combination is more decisive.

    I do agree the unit sizes and also unit mass and lays a part, as well, but there are other elements of the matchup that you didn’t consider that also explain the results.

  • uriakuriak Posts: 3,247Registered Users
    So typically a giant is an ironbreaker... breaker, right ?

  • kondenadokondenado Posts: 293Registered Users
    Excellent point!. As pointed a single entity with few attacks will inflict lot of damage per attack and will waste lot of damage.
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