Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Greenskins balancing state.

Green0Green0 Posts: 5,173Registered Users
edited July 5 in Balancing Discussions
Greenskins in the last patch received 2 very substantial buffs to compensate for the Vindictive Glare nerf, and while these buffs were meant to help GS fight factions such as VC and Lizardmen, it seems that they still failed to do so. At the same time, these buffs feel oppressive to play against if you are any faction that isn't VC or LZ and, as such, in my opinion need to be reverted (and GS can be compensated in some other way).


Arachnarok Queen

While the regular Arachnarok needed the BvL buff, the RoR variant most definitely didn't. For 2400g, it has 150 armor, 77 MA vs large and 6800 HP. It applies poison in melee which translates to a 18% ward save. It also has a very respectable 57 speed that is compounded by the fact that it has ranged poison attacks so it slows down any cavalry trying to escape it, which in turn synergizes well with spells like Gork'll Fix It. It generally will be camping on top of Black Orcs, which are a pseudo-halberd unit, and as such, engaging it with something like a Shaggoth, Dragon, Hydra, etc. is not practical since you won't win (especially with GS spell support). The spiderling summons are also useful to chase down skirmishing units or tarpit cavalry (I believe they too have poison) and contribute to making this unit just too good all around in my opinion.

Proposed change (RoR only) +150g.

Doomdiver

This unit was not bad before and although it didn't have an AP majority it could kill medium armor units like Temple Guards relatively fast. It was also very decent at cleaning missile cav and lightly armored troops. While one could argue it was slightly underpowered (I personally saw it get 100+ kills quite a number of times pre-patch, so I don't share this impression however), we are talking about 50-75g type of deal. It most definitely didn't need a COMPLETE AP swap (which is worth roughly 200-250g on such a unit) since now it kills cavalry very fast, and cavalry should be the GS faction weakness (they are strong in basically anything else and even vs cavalry not hopeless due to presence of Wurzag nets, poison effects, speed debuffs and smoke bombs, Boar cavalry also is cost-effective vs most enemy cavalry units if they get a good charge). Grail Knights, Dragon Princes all die very quickly to this artillery piece (which has homing missiles and as such can't even be dodged unlike Empire Cannons or Bolt Throwers), while any other low-tier cav such as Knights of the Realm or Silver Helms just doesn't do enough damage to units like Boar Boy Biguns or Black Orcs.

Proposed change: revert AP swap, then apply +50 AP, -50 regular (so that it has a bit more AP but not AP majority).

Vindictive Glare

It feels like this spell got overnerfed. My way of gauging it will be Alarielle on Eagle since I play HE the most and she's my lord choice vs GS. Before, it almost 1 shot Alarielle when overcast (let's say it did 85% HP damage, more or less), which was definitely too much. Now, it seems that value is somewhere around 20%. I think the sweet spot would be somewhere around 30-35% so that it would still do significant damage but also enable counterplay (particularly for mages on a horse, e.g. hide in a forest after you get hit once). Maybe accuracy could also be decreased a bit since the idea of the spell should be to counter stuff like Eagles, Dragons and not Mages on a horse.

Proposed change: the one that will make it do ~30% HP damage to Alarielle on Eagle when overcast and 20% to a Mage on horse.

Feel free to discuss also other units that you think need nerfs/buffs in the GS roster currently.
«13

Comments

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users
    For the love of this game, don't rebuff VG. It's still OK in terms of damage per wom, and in qb you can bring the spell on 3 chars or pair 2, with SL, and combine with cooldown item. If you want to buff it I would consider adding ap ratio to widen the target profile but not add more raw damage.

    Otherwise I don't know, it's good but i haven't really found spider overly oppressive or broken. 150 gold is a lot... DD are really stronk though and the nerf milder so I like that suggestion best.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,173Registered Users
    edited July 5

    For the love of this game, don't rebuff VG. It's still OK in terms of damage per wom, and in qb you can bring the spell on 3 chars or pair 2, with SL, and combine with cooldown item. If you want to buff it I would consider adding ap ratio to widen the target profile but not add more raw damage.

    Otherwise I don't know, it's good but i haven't really found spider overly oppressive or broken. 150 gold is a lot... DD are really stronk though and the nerf milder so I like that suggestion best.

    well, I too am not too fond of buffing VG again but well, let's say for a moment you don't, GS probably need something to deal with Dinos. I personally really dislike Greenskins and I think that Waagh is super badly balanced but I'm trying my best to preserve mechanics such as Waagh as faction identity and be as impartial as I can. The issue is that neither old VG, nor new Doomdivers seem to do the trick so idk what can be done.

    About Arachnarok, you really underestimate its 150 armor in my opinion along with how strong it is when it's camping on top of Black Orcs. Black Orcs will kill anything that tries to land or cavalry that tries to surround the Arachnarok, or infantry, while the RoR Arachnarok will take care of SEMs. It's really a strong combo and very easy to pull of which is why I think it needs nerfs. It's the same problem of 2 Mammoths + Fimirs that allows Norsca to pull off a deathstar army, only in different colors.

    Either +150g or remove summons seems reasonable. Most RoR monsters anyway are already generously prices since on a monster, rank 9 stats alone are easily worth 600+g.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,358Registered Users
    Arachnarok - Hard no. At most I could see a +50, but even that's pushing it. Spiderlings took a hard nerf last patch when they became breakable, and it makes it much more difficult to use them as a reliable backline disruptor(which in turn hurts the queens viability with rosters that can field heavy missile pressure). The unit already costs 2400, has no missile resist, pretty trash leadership(65) for a big monster in its price bracket and is on a roster with 0 access to healing. Not gonna lie and pretend the queen isnt potent, or cant be a valuable asset, but its hardly busted OP when one considers just how much it costs.

    Doom Divers - Bit ambivalent on thsi one. They can be potent, but they need you to buy a lot of time to zone away enemy threats. The damage they do is not particularly quick, and there's quite a lot of opportunity to shut them down before it gets overwhelming. With their terribad leadership they are one of the most easy to compromise artillery pieces in the game, and they also give greenskins one of their last bastions of hope vs the cancerous SEM builds all too popular with some factions right now (cough, lizards, cough). Keep in mind it's a 900 gold artillery piece, and while the greenskin roster has a good amount of crowd control, it takes very little to cripple or disable the DD.

    VG - agree it could use a slight buff, but nothing crazy, improving AP ratio might be better, especially if DD's take a hit.
    Regularly publish Total War: Warhammer 2 content on my YT channel

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPI93p-X2T4YKD18O16bhPw
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,173Registered Users
    edited July 5
    Wyvern2 said:


    Doom Divers - Bit ambivalent on thsi one. They can be potent, but they need you to buy a lot of time to zone away enemy threats. The damage they do is not particularly quick, and there's quite a lot of opportunity to shut them down before it gets overwhelming. With their terribad leadership they are one of the most easy to compromise artillery pieces in the game, and they also give greenskins one of their last bastions of hope vs the cancerous SEM builds all too popular with some factions right now (cough, lizards, cough). Keep in mind it's a 900 gold artillery piece, and while the greenskin roster has a good amount of crowd control, it takes very little to cripple or disable the DD.

    Test them vs Grail Knights - I too was surprised how fast they kill them, 900g or no, Greenskins shouldn't have such strong infantry AND artillery since they can stall the enemy for days with cost-effective chaff, sturdy Black Orcs and plenty of slow stacking effects - again, unless you think the unit was UP before, there is no way to justify a complete AP swap. Keep in mind that at 900g you are paying mostly for homing missiles also so it can hardly be compared to an Empire Cannon which misses a lot.

    As for "recovers its value slowly", which artillery doesn't? GS of all factions shouldn't be enabled to play defensively so well when they have such a strong melee rush because it pressures a lot of factions and puts them on a timer with say a Doomdiver, and then BAM! Waagh happens.

    edit: I just tested vs AI, apparently vs Grail Knights it kills 1 model per shot (low splash or something idk). The problem is that it seems to reliably hit with upwards of 90% hitrate, unlike Emp Cannons which can EASILY be dodged to make them have something like a 30% or less hitrate so I feel that this unit is decidedly too strong at the moment as long as it has AP and kills 1 Grail Knight per hit. You only need 9 shots vs a cavalry like Grail Knights to be cost-effective and this is not accounting for the fact that with artillery you rarely wanna kill 100% of a unit, you generally wanna tag it so that your troops can finish it off in melee. For example, killing off 10 Grail Knights (3 shots) before the engagement starts will probably allow your Boar Biguns to trade much more effectively, get better surround, etc. so there's more to artillery than counting how much damage it does.

    Totally disagree that it takes very little to disable the Doomdiver - Greenskins are one of the hardest factions in my experience to get into the backline of, unless you are specifically VC or Coast - easiest being probably something like Dwarfs or Coast or even Empire.

    About Arachnarok, well, the way you put it I can kind of agree, except it got a free +14 BvL last patch. Was this unit UP before last patch in your opinion? (I ask only RoR, I agree regular variant was slightly UP). Admittedly I'm on the fence about this one, I don't think Arachnarok RoR is OP per se, only I strongly dislike how many people, including good players apparently have taken a habit of bringing stuff like Arachnarok + 2 Black Orcs + Doomdiver, or 2 Mammoths + 2 Fimirs + token chaff. This type of deathstar tactics is really as low as it gets and as such I'd like to see it a bit nerfed but I agree that individually neither Arachnarok nor Black Orcs are overperforming.

    Mostly though it's obnoxious when camped on top of Black Orcs.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,381Registered Users
    Arachnarok Queen

    A BvL of 14 & a big nerf to the summons (gone from unbreakable to 50 leadership) is worth +150? No nerfs necessary it punches well within the range of other monsters in its price range. It has weapon strength of 380 & 65 leadership, it does have a lot of armour but gets absolutely wrecked by any AP missiles which are also a good pick vs Black Orcs too.

    I don't really understand what you mean about camping on a black orc being a good strategy either, most factions can bring an SE that will perform well against it and have an AP infantry in the Black Orc price range they can camp on top of it as well.

    Doom Diver
    Yea, some type of nerf is probably warranted here. I think a big problem with them is that they are quite spammable at 900 so I would actually prefer a price increase instead of a stat change. Maybe +50 or +100 to start?

    Vindictive Glare

    Yea, a small buff is probably warranted . I agree with Disposable Hero that a slightly better ap ratio might be a better choice.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,173Registered Users
    edited July 5
    OrkLads said:

    Arachnarok Queen

    A BvL of 14 & a big nerf to the summons (gone from unbreakable to 50 leadership) is worth +150? No nerfs necessary it punches well within the range of other monsters in its price range. It has weapon strength of 380 & 65 leadership, it does have a lot of armour but gets absolutely wrecked by any AP missiles which are also a good pick vs Black Orcs too.

    I don't really understand what you mean about camping on a black orc being a good strategy either, most factions can bring an SE that will perform well against it and have an AP infantry in the Black Orc price range they can camp on top of it as well.

    the issue with this is that AP missiles get countered by a Doomdiver pick and as such are generally a bad idea vs Greenskins, unless you're talking Dwarfs or Coast specifically which are already favorable matchups (incidentally, I think after the AP swap the Doomdiver became a good pick vs Dwarfs too so it only underperforms vs Coast since they have 120 model AP missile units), other factions can't get away with it. Going in melee with Black Orcs is... well, I don't think it's a good idea generally, I might be naive here but it seems to me based on numerous games on ladder that GS melee > everyone else's even after the nerfs to Waagh so I'm not sure say as HE, DE, Empire, Bretonnia you wanna go in melee with GS. I'd love to bring something like Swordmasters or Greatswords vs Greenskins, I think situationally it can work too but it generally seems a bad idea since GS have plenty of ways to deny you proper use of these units.

    Incidentally, have you seen yesterday's (July 4th) flash tournament hosted by My_Son? The finals came down to a Bretonnia vs Greenskins game and it felt really bad to see that in spite of the Bretonnian player trying his best and doing in my opinion 0 mistakes, he couldn't crack a box of 4 Black Orcs. It's worth noting that since this was a friendly tournament, his opponent had Grimgor, a bit of a meme pick. Imagine if instead his opponent had optimized a bit more and cut Grimgor, 1 Black Orc and brought Arachnarok Queen. There is probably nothing Bretonnia can do vs such a setup. HE and a cavalry-heavy Empire build can struggle too.

    Here the link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/448157450?t=03h14m53s

    In general though, like I said with Wyvern, I agree that the monster is statted fairly and correctly for its price, my issue with it is mostly in deathstar builds.
    OrkLads said:



    Doom Diver
    Yea, some type of nerf is probably warranted here. I think a big problem with them is that they are quite spammable at 900 so I would actually prefer a price increase instead of a stat change. Maybe +50 or +100 to start?

    Agree here. Not sure if 50 or 100 either. Maybe +75g?
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    For the love of this game, don't rebuff VG. It's still OK in terms of damage per wom, and in qb you can bring the spell on 3 chars or pair 2, with SL, and combine with cooldown item. If you want to buff it I would consider adding ap ratio to widen the target profile but not add more raw damage.

    Otherwise I don't know, it's good but i haven't really found spider overly oppressive or broken. 150 gold is a lot... DD are really stronk though and the nerf milder so I like that suggestion best.

    well, I too am not too fond of buffing VG again but well, let's say for a moment you don't, GS probably need something to deal with Dinos. I personally really dislike Greenskins and I think that Waagh is super badly balanced but I'm trying my best to preserve mechanics such as Waagh as faction identity and be as impartial as I can. The issue is that neither old VG, nor new Doomdivers seem to do the trick so idk what can be done.

    About Arachnarok, you really underestimate its 150 armor in my opinion along with how strong it is when it's camping on top of Black Orcs. Black Orcs will kill anything that tries to land or cavalry that tries to surround the Arachnarok, or infantry, while the RoR Arachnarok will take care of SEMs. It's really a strong combo and very easy to pull of which is why I think it needs nerfs. It's the same problem of 2 Mammoths + Fimirs that allows Norsca to pull off a deathstar army, only in different colors.

    Either +150g or remove summons seems reasonable. Most RoR monsters anyway are already generously prices since on a monster, rank 9 stats alone are easily worth 600+g.
    I don't think vg could ever be a really good counter to dino spam without it being completely broken vs lords and heroes which on general always have much less hp. It's also hard limited by wom so you can't scale up so to say. If Liz brings even more dino you can't bring even more vg after a certain limit.

    What gs really needs here is spear chukka I think, and maybe one more source of armor sunder/armor debuff on a spell or ror.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,762Registered Users
    edited July 5
    Queen Does need +100g

    Don't touch VG

    Doomdivers i'm not sure.

    Grimgor Needs nice buffs

    I mean overall GS are in quite balanced spot so don't really need to touch them much or at all.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users
    Maybe an item similar to the tomb prince armor debuff on the goblin bosses to stack with arrers could be useful?
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    It is hard to take away the buffs they have already done, actually, they needed buff, just a little over.
    but i'm not complaint GS. I played vc for the first practice time, and some miss-play was forgiven.

    and since playing DE game properly, it was not to allowing miss play.
    I think, I may loose of playing two misses in one game, and If I do GS, I think it can be done with one mistake.

    so you can still win. They just do not need any more buffs. to solve bad match-ups, you have to buff a little bit,
    It is unavoidable. and if it goes well, everyone expects to play a game similar to GS grade. maybe 1.5 tier?

    Maybe I feel okay, because there are more stronger and terrifying factions being lol.
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 698Registered Users
    I agree Arachnarok Queen ROR could get a price increase, but no more than 100g

    Doom Divers are OK, they are not taken very frequently so it does not seem like they need to be changes. For varieties sake I would swap their AP for non-AP perhaps and drop price? Or maybe increase non-AP damage so they become crowd control?

    I would like to see fanatics either buffed or cost decrease of 25g

    Grimgor definitely needs buff. Orc Warboss also needs buff. I think getting some interesting items that are meant more us general buff to troops would be nice. Just like LZD Old blood vs Kroq Gar. The regular old blood has 2 AOE buffs, one to MA and CB and on MD. Combined, these 2 buffs make him much better in front line while Kroq Gar hits harder. So both have different uses.

    Squiq hoppers need price decrease or ROR needs price increase. Right now the price difference is 100g and there is absolutely no reason to not take ROR over regular. I feel like this is the cheapest ROR upgrade of all units. for extra 100g (from 650 to 750) you get the rank 9 stats plus 25% missile resist. Very useful for backline disruption unit.

    Compare the goblin wolf riders ROR to the above. This ROR costs a whopping 50% more than the base unit (+150g) and it only gets fear on top of rank 9 stats. This unit is so weak that there are regular archer units it will not be able to beat in melee. So what is the point of paying 50% more for the upgraded stats? Either decrease cost by 50g or add some other interesting ability.

    Something also needs to be done to Giant. As Giant < Arachnarok (even with cost accounted for). So Giant will never be more competitive. I was thinking maybe add a little cost and make the giant a "Savage" version. (gets 25% physical resist and +6 speed).

    2 spells from the little waggh (curse of the bad moon and night shroud) are never used. These need WoM decrease or buff.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Posts: 301Registered Users
    Aracknarok spiders from my point of view were alredy a fine unit and they got the bvL for free on last patch. Im fine with it, as it is true that GS had some trouble dealing with large single entities. However, Araknarok quenn definetly feels a bit too strong. Rather than increasing its price, i think that maybe it could be better to reduce the duration on its summons. Currently spiderlings take 180 seconds to crumble, the most lasting summon on the game, i think that this time should be reduced to 120 seconds.

    Doom diver, agree. Shoudnt do as much AP.

    VIndictive glare, im not completly sure if its damage output is fine or not for its WoM, because it is the cheapest missile spell out there. Will have to test it. Just want to add that shem burning gaze surelly feels underwhelming.

    Im surprised no one mentioned Waaagh. Is the general consensus that Waaagh is fine? Because i feel it is a bit too strong. I would reduce the MA bonus to +15 and make it grant +5 LD during the duration. That way it would feel more balanced and wont make the front line fight so one sided for GS.

  • another505another505 Posts: 996Registered Users
    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,295Registered Users

    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit

    cos they aren't smart enough to function independently lol
  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 698Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit

    cos they aren't smart enough to function independently lol
    Wouldn't Wyverns be a little bit like Manticores in function?
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Posts: 432Registered Users
    edited July 5
    well GS in lore and TT don't really have bad artillery, but rather very cost effective and unpredictable. Doom-divers could target your own troops occasionally (too high on mush to always identify the target), instead of a raw nerf. Or regularly lose crew members that get strapped to the "pilot".
  • ystyst Posts: 6,069Registered Users

    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit

    What u mean feral wyverns?

    I asked that ages ago, the official response was asymmetrical balancing. CA doesnt want dragon like stuffs flying around it seems. Prolly why elves r given full air domination, uncontested by any means pretty much.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • MrRipper707MrRipper707 Posts: 146Registered Users
    Perhaps the arachnarok queen is to multi purpose now? perhaps it would have been better to throw anti large on another unit? I dont know here personally to be honest.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,295Registered Users
    yst said:

    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit

    What u mean feral wyverns?

    I asked that ages ago, the official response was asymmetrical balancing. CA doesnt want dragon like stuffs flying around it seems. Prolly why elves r given full air domination, uncontested by any means pretty much.
    except by bret u mean
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,762Registered Users
    edited July 5
    Loupi_ said:

    yst said:

    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit

    What u mean feral wyverns?

    I asked that ages ago, the official response was asymmetrical balancing. CA doesnt want dragon like stuffs flying around it seems. Prolly why elves r given full air domination, uncontested by any means pretty much.
    except by bret u mean
    and VC...but its expected...

    The DE air dominance so stronk
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,295Registered Users
    edited July 5

    Loupi_ said:

    yst said:

    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit

    What u mean feral wyverns?

    I asked that ages ago, the official response was asymmetrical balancing. CA doesnt want dragon like stuffs flying around it seems. Prolly why elves r given full air domination, uncontested by any means pretty much.
    except by bret u mean
    and VC...but its expected...

    The DE air dominance so stronk
    those raven heralds...
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,173Registered Users
    edited July 5
    yst said:

    Kinda out of topic
    But why isnt the wyvern an individual unit

    What u mean feral wyverns?

    I asked that ages ago, the official response was asymmetrical balancing. CA doesnt want dragon like stuffs flying around it seems. Prolly why elves r given full air domination, uncontested by any means pretty much.
    Bret VC Coast TK, all factions that can wrestle air control away from nasty Elves if they invest enough. Even a faction like Empire isn't hopeless if you bring Manticore summons.
  • MrRipper707MrRipper707 Posts: 146Registered Users
    To be fair dont elves have the best dragons? and lorewise are dragons not the be all end all of flying monsters?

    combine that with strong missile infantry (another elven faction flavor thing) is it really that bad if air dominance is an elven thing? someone has to the BEST at it right?

    this is comming from someone who hates knife ears =)
  • ystyst Posts: 6,069Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    except by bret u mean

    Well u can try, tempest and star and they wont budge. They will however if u wanna cough up 10k on air fight tho. Pound for pound, no chance. Anyway irrelevant to topic, side talks really, ppl can either dismiss or agree, not gonna change much
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,368Registered Users
    Energyzed said:


    Im surprised no one mentioned Waaagh. Is the general consensus that Waaagh is fine? Because i feel it is a bit too strong. I would reduce the MA bonus to +15 and make it grant +5 LD during the duration. That way it would feel more balanced and wont make the front line fight so one sided for GS.

    Agree that it should grant less MA and some sort of Leadership, units under its effect should be harder to break. It looks somewhat Greenskin way of hilarious when your boys break just after the waaagh though.

    Also obligatory mention of Grimgor (footlords hello) and Warboss problems. Gork is displeased with these two weaklings.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited July 5

    To be fair dont elves have the best dragons? and lorewise are dragons not the be all end all of flying monsters?

    combine that with strong missile infantry (another elven faction flavor thing) is it really that bad if air dominance is an elven thing? someone has to the BEST at it right?

    this is comming from someone who hates knife ears =)

    There is a missile CAV to blast it. do not worry, it's just a big target. Shoot close as u can, It can not be avoided with dodge. I prefer a safe build, I have builds that use missile CAVs against HE, and I am able to handle enough with infantry of moving fire. 4 Dragon build is nothing. but it is your mistake to allow charging, because they invested money in dragons, In the end, they must going on the ground. Then punish it with your tool.

    and do not try to challenging against HE with the same air unit.
    I saw some Chaos was 2 HERO ON MANTICORE, 1 DRAGON LORD build.
    but u have to do it while looking at ur opponent.

    It is a shortcut of quick defeat.


    off topic; -grimgor can be upgraded-.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,173Registered Users
    edited July 5
    So I just tested Doomdivers vs Swordmasters led by the AI - before SM are able to come on top of the DD, the DD kills 55/75 of them. This is while not having a frontline and also considering the fact that the DD costs 350g less than SM.

    Artillery in a vacuum shouldn't be cost-efficient vs anything and only good as part of combined arms. Based on this test, it seems that DD needs either the AP swap reverted or +150g at minimum, maybe +200g since it realistically restricts the counters to GS to ONLY cavalry (which is somewhat resilient to DD due to its low splash), while elite infantry gets totally wrecked. The thing currently performs like a mini-Hellcannon but has none of the weaknesses HC has and comes in a much more flexible roster.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,295Registered Users
    +115 AP buff to DD was wayyy over the top. It has twice the AP and three times the base damage per volley as a hellcannon.

    It's more like the hellcannon is a mini doom diver. Thankfully DD has relatively low explosion damage.

    Anti large on spider should have come with a price increase.

    Also I don't know if this is a bug, but when the arachnarok routs it moves at super high speed and very few units can catch it.
  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Posts: 437Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    So I just tested Doomdivers vs Swordmasters led by the AI - before SM are able to come on top of the DD, the DD kills 55/75 of them. This is while not having a frontline and also considering the fact that the DD costs 350g less than SM.

    Artillery in a vacuum shouldn't be cost-efficient vs anything and only good as part of combined arms. Based on this test, it seems that DD needs either the AP swap reverted or +150g at minimum, maybe +200g since it realistically restricts the counters to GS to ONLY cavalry (which is somewhat resilient to DD due to its low splash), while elite infantry gets totally wrecked. The thing currently performs like a mini-Hellcannon but has none of the weaknesses HC has and comes in a much more flexible roster.

    What do you expect to happen when artillery is able to freely fire on an approaching unit of infantry?
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,173Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    So I just tested Doomdivers vs Swordmasters led by the AI - before SM are able to come on top of the DD, the DD kills 55/75 of them. This is while not having a frontline and also considering the fact that the DD costs 350g less than SM.

    Artillery in a vacuum shouldn't be cost-efficient vs anything and only good as part of combined arms. Based on this test, it seems that DD needs either the AP swap reverted or +150g at minimum, maybe +200g since it realistically restricts the counters to GS to ONLY cavalry (which is somewhat resilient to DD due to its low splash), while elite infantry gets totally wrecked. The thing currently performs like a mini-Hellcannon but has none of the weaknesses HC has and comes in a much more flexible roster.

    What do you expect to happen when artillery is able to freely fire on an approaching unit of infantry?
    test Hellcannon or Bretonnian Trebuchet and see for yourself :)
Sign In or Register to comment.