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How can i beat skirmish cheese built with VC,Norsca?

jin4325jin4325 Posts: 18Registered Users
edited July 11 in Multiplayer
I can't deal with Avelorn, WE with so many skirmisher spam
How can i beat them with VC and Norsca with balanced build?
Can i see some replay or youtube clip?
They really make me so disgusting
«1

Comments

  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 547Registered Users
    What do you mean with skirmisher spam? Do you mean kiting armies with archers and cav only?
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    with high mobility units, and so many dodge.

    You can get goku's ultra instinct through training.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    In case of HE skirmish. If they lack Sisters of Averlorn/other archers you can just sustain all this damage as VC. Cause skirmish missile troops are quite expensive. You just need some other heal source either Unholy Lode stone corpse cart or Necromancer with heal aura. Screen important things with not important units and you would be fine in most cases.
    And of course DODGE with SEMs, Lords and Heroes.

    In case of WE. Such tactics would not work due to how OP cost effective are Waywatchers no matter at what target they shoot. So something like Crypt Ghouls frontline(they are fast enough to catch WW if they manage to land a hit due to poison) with at least 2 Blood Knights 2 Black Knights(in case of QB you can take even 3 Blood Knights).


    As for Norsca. Vs HE use you own skirmish cav in most cases it would be enough. In case of WE Ice wolves+Skin wolves with Lore of Shadow and RoR dogos are not bad option.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users


    This will help. I hope that both are a respectable player and do not evaluate it and only learn good things.

    I lost a good player's rush build, and after watching this video,
    I turned off the skirmish mode and started practice.

    HE, WE's skirmishes are trickier than DE, but the principle is the same.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,051Registered Users
    edited July 11
    As nosca uve to always be wary of those, since its a popular counter ppl use. Which itself can be counter only if u bring enough counter lol
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  • jin4325jin4325 Posts: 18Registered Users
    edited July 11
    keroro7 said:



    This will help. I hope that both are a respectable player and do not evaluate it and only learn good things.

    I lost a good player's rush build, and after watching this video,
    I turned off the skirmish mode and started practice.

    HE, WE's skirmishes are trickier than DE, but the principle is the same.


    Im sorry this is not helpful in my case.
    Lotus simply throw out his doomfire and coldone, and DE's skirmisher cav can't do moving shot
  • jin4325jin4325 Posts: 18Registered Users
    yst said:

    As nosca uve to always be wary of those, since its a popular counter ppl use. Which itself can be counter only if u bring enough counter lol


    tank3487 said:

    In case of HE skirmish. If they lack Sisters of Averlorn/other archers you can just sustain all this damage as VC. Cause skirmish missile troops are quite expensive. You just need some other heal source either Unholy Lode stone corpse cart or Necromancer with heal aura. Screen important things with not important units and you would be fine in most cases.
    And of course DODGE with SEMs, Lords and Heroes.

    In case of WE. Such tactics would not work due to how OP cost effective are Waywatchers no matter at what target they shoot. So something like Crypt Ghouls frontline(they are fast enough to catch WW if they manage to land a hit due to poison) with at least 2 Blood Knights 2 Black Knights(in case of QB you can take even 3 Blood Knights).


    As for Norsca. Vs HE use you own skirmish cav in most cases it would be enough. In case of WE Ice wolves+Skin wolves with Lore of Shadow and RoR dogos are not bad option.


    Sorry im not a native english speaker, what's mean ppl uve SEM?
  • jin4325jin4325 Posts: 18Registered Users
    Cirdan said:

    What do you mean with skirmisher spam? Do you mean kiting armies with archers and cav only?

    Yes



  • ystyst Posts: 6,051Registered Users
    jin4325 said:

    Sorry im not a native english speaker, what's mean ppl uve SEM?

    SEM, Single Entity Monster, its just a stupid name ppl give to big monster. Like shaggoth, dragon, 1 big model monsters.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
    Unit stats compare courtesy of Seal62 https://total-war-unit-compare.herokuapp.com/
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    jin4325 said:

    keroro7 said:



    This will help. I hope that both are a respectable player and do not evaluate it and only learn good things.

    I lost a good player's rush build, and after watching this video,
    I turned off the skirmish mode and started practice.

    HE, WE's skirmishes are trickier than DE, but the principle is the same.


    Im sorry this is not helpful in my case.
    Lotus simply throw out his doomfire and coldone, and DE's skirmisher cav can't do moving shot
    No, the thing to point is that you need to see dodging with mortis, fell bats. whatever build you do, you must dodge it if you see the flying arrow of your opponents. and slowly push the opponent into the corner of the map. sacrifice shield infantry if necessary. This is the only opportunity for a short range faction to defeat a mobile shooting faction. unless you are doing extreme builds. and not so different, against 360degree shooting army, you just need more dodge. maybe double, triple should do more. use ur kaio-ken. it will help. o:)
  • jin4325jin4325 Posts: 18Registered Users
    yst said:

    jin4325 said:

    Sorry im not a native english speaker, what's mean ppl uve SEM?

    SEM, Single Entity Monster, its just a stupid name ppl give to big monster. Like shaggoth, dragon, 1 big model monsters.
    thx. and what's mean 'ppl' and uve?
  • jin4325jin4325 Posts: 18Registered Users
    edited July 11
    keroro7 said:

    jin4325 said:

    keroro7 said:



    This will help. I hope that both are a respectable player and do not evaluate it and only learn good things.

    I lost a good player's rush build, and after watching this video,
    I turned off the skirmish mode and started practice.

    HE, WE's skirmishes are trickier than DE, but the principle is the same.


    Im sorry this is not helpful in my case.
    Lotus simply throw out his doomfire and coldone, and DE's skirmisher cav can't do moving shot
    No, the thing to point is that you need to see dodging with mortis, fell bats. whatever build you do, you must dodge it if you see the flying arrow of your opponents. and slowly push the opponent into the corner of the map. sacrifice shield infantry if necessary. This is the only opportunity for a short range faction to defeat a mobile shooting faction. unless you are doing extreme builds. and not so different, against 360degree shooting army, you just need more dodge. maybe double, triple should do more. use ur kaio-ken. it will help. o:)
    i've watched that video. it's somewhat helpful. but i want to watch matches against more 'skirmishly(?)' build(like WE's cheese spam troll build)
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users


    HE VS NC

    well, I hope u like this.
    or u can take a look at twich tv, it is difficult to find what you want, but there is a lot of good data. :)
    now, I have to go, good luck
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,150Registered Users
    edited July 12
    - People lose to kite once while beating it another 3-4 times:

    "KITE CRAZY OP PLS NERF THOSE HORSEMENS ARCHERS!!!111!"

    - People lose to Waagh Greenskins or to Norsca Mammoth rush with an all melee army from their side:

    "this is perfectly fine, my opponent defeated me fairly even though my melee units didn't stand a change from the start"


    So how exactly is kiting cheese? It looks to me that melee rush is cheese if anything since the outcome is determined from the start when 2 melee armies fight each other and there are no tactics involved.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    keroro7 said:


    HE VS NC
    well, I hope u like this.

    It is extremely infavorable map for skirmish build. I doubt that on open map you have chance vs HE skirmish with this build.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,697Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    - People lose to kite once while beating it another 3-4 times:

    "KITE CRAZY OP PLS NERF THOSE HORSEMENS ARCHERS!!!111!"

    - People lose to Waagh Greenskins or to Norsca Mammoth rush with an all melee army from their side:

    "this is perfectly fine, my opponent defeated me fairly even though my melee units didn't stand a change from the start"


    So how exactly is kiting cheese? It looks to me that melee rush is cheese if anything since the outcome is determined from the start when 2 melee armies fight each other and there are no tactics involved.

    I think it's the frustration of feeling you got forced into nonparticipation and feel that the opponent was toying with you because as long as the kiter doesn't make mistakes he won't lose (if his build has sufficient damage potential and he can shut down the mobile elements of your build).

    Not saying this is right but I can understand the feeling and it's not a good one. You can feel kind of humiliated and undressed. You can try to avoid the situation by doing the same yourself, or bringing a strong ranged build. That's what most of us do and for most part that's fine, but I can also see this is in a way pushing for extreme builds on both sides.

    I have defended -10% ammo on skirmish cav (only cav!) to force a little more substance before and I still think it could be beneficial over all for how the game plays. Nothing I am on the barricades about though. At the end of the day I think it's mostly a philosophical question for the developers. How much killing potential should the "uncatchable" skirmishers have? It's not in a bad spot right now imo, if it's too much it's only by Max 10% I think.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,150Registered Users
    edited July 12

    Green0 said:

    - People lose to kite once while beating it another 3-4 times:

    "KITE CRAZY OP PLS NERF THOSE HORSEMENS ARCHERS!!!111!"

    - People lose to Waagh Greenskins or to Norsca Mammoth rush with an all melee army from their side:

    "this is perfectly fine, my opponent defeated me fairly even though my melee units didn't stand a change from the start"


    So how exactly is kiting cheese? It looks to me that melee rush is cheese if anything since the outcome is determined from the start when 2 melee armies fight each other and there are no tactics involved.

    I think it's the frustration of feeling you got forced into nonparticipation and feel that the opponent was toying with you because as long as the kiter doesn't make mistakes he won't lose (if his build has sufficient damage potential and he can shut down the mobile elements of your build).

    Not saying this is right but I can understand the feeling and it's not a good one. You can feel kind of humiliated and undressed. You can try to avoid the situation by doing the same yourself, or bringing a strong ranged build. That's what most of us do and for most part that's fine, but I can also see this is in a way pushing for extreme builds on both sides.

    I have defended -10% ammo on skirmish cav (only cav!) to force a little more substance before and I still think it could be beneficial over all for how the game plays. Nothing I am on the barricades about though. At the end of the day I think it's mostly a philosophical question for the developers. How much killing potential should the "uncatchable" skirmishers have? It's not in a bad spot right now imo, if it's too much it's only by Max 10% I think.
    well I feel that blobbing is obnoxious to play against and too strong. Skaven blobbing, Ironbreaker boxing, Phoenix Guard resistance stacking, Norsca camping 2 Mammoths and 3 Fimirs. Everyone hates something different.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    I think it all comes down to bad army selection from people, they can deal with kite and other elements if they take units that are good vs those but they don't want to and instead of improving their own army they want to impose their way of playing onto their opponents.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited July 12
    tank3487 said:

    keroro7 said:


    HE VS NC
    well, I hope u like this.

    It is extremely infavorable map for skirmish build. I doubt that on open map you have chance vs HE skirmish with this build.
    no. I told him the real answer, and I told again what he wanted to hear.

    If you notice, do not tell me this. :( o:)
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,697Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    - People lose to kite once while beating it another 3-4 times:

    "KITE CRAZY OP PLS NERF THOSE HORSEMENS ARCHERS!!!111!"

    - People lose to Waagh Greenskins or to Norsca Mammoth rush with an all melee army from their side:

    "this is perfectly fine, my opponent defeated me fairly even though my melee units didn't stand a change from the start"


    So how exactly is kiting cheese? It looks to me that melee rush is cheese if anything since the outcome is determined from the start when 2 melee armies fight each other and there are no tactics involved.

    I think it's the frustration of feeling you got forced into nonparticipation and feel that the opponent was toying with you because as long as the kiter doesn't make mistakes he won't lose (if his build has sufficient damage potential and he can shut down the mobile elements of your build).

    Not saying this is right but I can understand the feeling and it's not a good one. You can feel kind of humiliated and undressed. You can try to avoid the situation by doing the same yourself, or bringing a strong ranged build. That's what most of us do and for most part that's fine, but I can also see this is in a way pushing for extreme builds on both sides.

    I have defended -10% ammo on skirmish cav (only cav!) to force a little more substance before and I still think it could be beneficial over all for how the game plays. Nothing I am on the barricades about though. At the end of the day I think it's mostly a philosophical question for the developers. How much killing potential should the "uncatchable" skirmishers have? It's not in a bad spot right now imo, if it's too much it's only by Max 10% I think.
    well I feel that blobbing is obnoxious to play against and too strong. Skaven blobbing, Ironbreaker boxing, Phoenix Guard resistance stacking, Norsca camping 2 Mammoths and 3 Fimirs. Everyone hates something different.
    I am not going to get deep into this discussion, I'll just say that it's not quite the same thing. I know Lotus use to say this but I think it's a bit of a uncompromising view of the matter. I can definitely feel empathy for (especially newer players coming from campaign) running into 100% kite builds. It's not only a newbie thing though, I know several elite players have also spoken up for this. It shapes the way the game plays for good or bad. Between two good players skirmish vs skirmish can actually be very enjoyable micro competition. I play mobile builds in many matchups because I feel I need to in order to stand a chance and I enjoy it vs good players that brought armies not vulnerable to it.

    The game is the way it is right now and nobody should be overly shamed for playing it within these boundaries I think. However, I am open for the possibility that the game would have been more enjoyable for more people if it was balanced so that skirmish cav needed slightly more support to carry a win. I am not really advocating it, I think it's pretty good the way it is, but I don't dismiss out of hand that it could be better for the majority. I am totally open for that possibility, and I can definitely feel empathy for anyone who did not prepare to be kited. It's more humiliating, emotionally, because it's slow, it's painful and there's nothing you can really do about it if the opponent is better than a certain threshold. And if you endure and push through, you are wide open to be draw kited at the end. Not all players do that, but it exists and is part of the problem. That option will always be there. It's not the most time efficient way to grind QB, but it is the safest if you have no honor...
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,150Registered Users
    edited July 12

    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    - People lose to kite once while beating it another 3-4 times:

    "KITE CRAZY OP PLS NERF THOSE HORSEMENS ARCHERS!!!111!"

    - People lose to Waagh Greenskins or to Norsca Mammoth rush with an all melee army from their side:

    "this is perfectly fine, my opponent defeated me fairly even though my melee units didn't stand a change from the start"


    So how exactly is kiting cheese? It looks to me that melee rush is cheese if anything since the outcome is determined from the start when 2 melee armies fight each other and there are no tactics involved.

    I think it's the frustration of feeling you got forced into nonparticipation and feel that the opponent was toying with you because as long as the kiter doesn't make mistakes he won't lose (if his build has sufficient damage potential and he can shut down the mobile elements of your build).

    Not saying this is right but I can understand the feeling and it's not a good one. You can feel kind of humiliated and undressed. You can try to avoid the situation by doing the same yourself, or bringing a strong ranged build. That's what most of us do and for most part that's fine, but I can also see this is in a way pushing for extreme builds on both sides.

    I have defended -10% ammo on skirmish cav (only cav!) to force a little more substance before and I still think it could be beneficial over all for how the game plays. Nothing I am on the barricades about though. At the end of the day I think it's mostly a philosophical question for the developers. How much killing potential should the "uncatchable" skirmishers have? It's not in a bad spot right now imo, if it's too much it's only by Max 10% I think.
    well I feel that blobbing is obnoxious to play against and too strong. Skaven blobbing, Ironbreaker boxing, Phoenix Guard resistance stacking, Norsca camping 2 Mammoths and 3 Fimirs. Everyone hates something different.
    I am not going to get deep into this discussion, I'll just say that it's not quite the same thing. I know Lotus use to say this but I think it's a bit of a uncompromising view of the matter. I can definitely feel empathy for (especially newer players coming from campaign) running into 100% kite builds. It's not only a newbie thing though, I know several elite players have also spoken up for this. It shapes the way the game plays for good or bad. Between two good players skirmish vs skirmish can actually be very enjoyable micro competition. I play mobile builds in many matchups because I feel I need to in order to stand a chance and I enjoy it vs good players that brought armies not vulnerable to it.

    The game is the way it is right now and nobody should be overly shamed for playing it within these boundaries I think. However, I am open for the possibility that the game would have been more enjoyable for more people if it was balanced so that skirmish cav needed slightly more support to carry a win. I am not really advocating it, I think it's pretty good the way it is, but I don't dismiss out of hand that it could be better for the majority. I am totally open for that possibility, and I can definitely feel empathy for anyone who did not prepare to be kited. It's more humiliating, emotionally, because it's slow, it's painful and there's nothing you can really do about it if the opponent is better than a certain threshold. And if you endure and push through, you are wide open to be draw kited at the end. Not all players do that, but it exists and is part of the problem. That option will always be there. It's not the most time efficient way to grind QB, but it is the safest if you have no honor...
    I don't agree at all with this, let's take HE-Skaven as an example. In this matchup, due to the number of bodies Skaven can put on the field, I don't think a unit like Ellyrean Archers, which is the "staple" of kiting often, is a good pick at all. They are expensive and believe it or not even very good players take damage on missile cavalry from basic archers, because there's firing delay, and so on. Firing from max range or while on the move typically carries penalties also that make the unit generally cost-inefficient so as long as you can keep the unit moving with a 400g archers, you can counter them even if you don't technically kill them.

    So what makes kiting builds strong vs, say, Skaven as HE? The fact that you are able to choose engagements. Why are you able to do so? Because most Skaven players skip on good units and spells in order to overload on the "goodies". Spells like Howling Warpgale, Poison Gutter Runners and Rat Ogres can all play a MASSIVE role in controlling the battlefield and denying the kiting HE the advantage they seek. Of course, you have to realize that when you play vs a kiter, his targets are slightly different than the usual "melee rush right click once". He generally wants to get rid of your archers, units with mass (e.g. Rat Ogres) and casters (to deny you Howling Warpgale or summons), as well as artillery as fast as possible because all these units counter kiting. It's your job then to throw bodies in his way and give him bad targets to mess him up, for example Clanrat Spears or poison and shoot at his Noble chariots.

    More generally, EVERY kiting faction has a weakness that makes kiting very easy to counter if you allocate some funds to countering it. Of course a kiting army is never out of the picture, which is a reasonable remark to make, but I feel that a non-kiting army isn't out of the picture either.

    For example, I don't know if you watched the recent Lotus vs Energyzed DE vs Lizardmen on ECL on Turin's channel. Energyzed brought a bit of a counterbuild which in spite of countering kiting had decent chances vs other armies also. He misplayed his cavalry, chameleons and Skink Chief and still it was a very close game. Had he played slightly better, I believe he would have won and his list wasn't mass cav + archers, quite the contrary it had 5 Saurus Warriors which are allegedly the most vulnerable target for kiting lists.

    Globally, HE kiting is weak due to no real AP aside from stuff like Dragons, so overload on those Fimirs or Rotting Leviathans vs HE. DE missile cavalry doesn't have 360 shooting, also has terrible melee stats and as such, units like Chaos Warhounds counter them very well, 400g chasing 650g and preventing it from firing.

    WE armies are vulnerable to cavalry, artillery and silver shields in general. While I do think WE have some of the strongest kiting in the game, they too can be beaten though I agree if played perfectly WE can prove very hard to beat (but, even in tournaments, I rarely see even very good players play very perfectly so this argument is moot).

    Beastmen kiting is vulnerable to Terror and is also short-ranged and unarmored.

    Norsca and Chaos, again short-ranged and fairly one-trick-pony rosters.

    tl;dr: every faction that can kite you has weaknesses to its kiting elements. If a faction with 360 AP missile cavalry, poison arrows, strong shock cavalry, healing and strong monsters existed, yes it would be OP. To this day, no such faction exists though.

    The idea that kiting is obnoxious is only in the eye of the beholder. I could tell you that I find it really obnoxious when I'm VC and the opponent is HE and brings a Phoenix Guard box and camps a forest, or if he brings a Deathstar build as Norsca, or "pseudo corner camps" with Dwarfs. All of these strategies are arguably more potent than kiting but I guess for a newbie they look fine because they have the impression that, as VC, say, "all you need to do to counter Phoenix Guard boxing is bring more AP next time" when this is a blatant lie. Analogously for Dwarf example, let's say you are Chaos and you go vs mass Gyrocopters + Ironbreaker box, people will tell you "just bring a Hellcannon", Final Transmutation or Marauder Throwing Axes but I assure you this is again an illusion. There is this idea that a certain streamer popularized that melee armies are 100% fair even though if we both build melee-only armies, I pick say Norsca and you HE or DE I win about 90% of the times which means there's nothing actually fair about melee.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    tl;dr: every faction that can kite you has weaknesses to its kiting elements. If a faction with 360 AP missile cavalry, poison arrows, strong shock cavalry, healing and strong monsters existed, yes it would be OP. To this day, no such faction exists though.

    To be fair WE do have 360 AP missile infantry with a 42 speed(good luck catching it with infantry, even such infantry like nonRoR crypt Ghouls would fail to catch them if not manage to land a hit for poison). Plus units with poison arrows, good shock cavalry(a little bit squishy, but quite hard hitting and affordable), healing and dragons.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,697Registered Users
    You miss my point completely green. I understand the game, as you know, thank you.

    All I have to say on the topic is in my post above and I nowhere say that kiting is not a valid play style or that it should be removed.

    Think abstract and embrace that the game may not be perfect today. Maybe it is, but then why are we here? Maybe skirmish cav is perfect, that could very well be, but I am pretty sure that QB restrictions are not perfect. In any case, I think there is room for improvement, both for elite players and for mainstream players. Both are important.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Green0 said:


    tl;dr: every faction that can kite you has weaknesses to its kiting elements. If a faction with 360 AP missile cavalry, poison arrows, strong shock cavalry, healing and strong monsters existed, yes it would be OP. To this day, no such faction exists though.

    To be fair WE do have 360 AP missile infantry with a 42 speed(good luck catching it with infantry, even such infantry like nonRoR crypt Ghouls would fail to catch them if not manage to land a hit for poison). Plus units with poison arrows, good shock cavalry(a little bit squishy, but quite hard hitting and affordable), healing and dragons.
    What is WE's good shock cav? i need to find them
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users


    What is WE's good shock cav? i need to find them

    Wild riders. They are squishy. But good melee stats and charge(and Forest Stalker) for such price. Plus 85 speed let you choose engagements. As SHOCK cav they are good.

    If he did imply good heavy cav or good AL cav, he should have said it. And such things WE do lack. But as shock cav wild riders are good.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    edited July 12
    tank3487 said:


    What is WE's good shock cav? i need to find them

    Wild riders. They are squishy. But good melee stats and charge(and Forest Stalker) for such price. Plus 85 speed let you choose engagements. As SHOCK cav they are good.

    If he did imply good heavy cav or good AL cav, he should have said it. And such things WE do lack. But as shock cav wild riders are good.
    They not, they rather weak currently, they not good as shock cav at all, for their price they probably 50g overpriced.

    Good melee stats? they got worse melee stats than sisters of thorns, CB is much lower than shock cav.

    As shock cav they are very bad, they ok as a medium cav unit but if you ever try using them as shock cav you sure won't do much with them at all.

    Have you actually used them in game 2?

    Even CA doen't classify them as shock cav.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited July 12


    Good melee stats?

    Dunno considering what stats similar priced Black knight Lances have. It is quite decent. They do lack armor and as result are quite squishy(For exchange gaining tonns of different buffs like Frenzy, Forest stalker, Vanguard deployment).
    But they do hit hard for such price.
    Of course it is not even close to bret god tier of OPnes lvl.


    Have you actually used them in game 2?

    Yeah, when tried different builds with Helm Glade Lord. But Net>Helm.
    They are MUCH better than Black Knight Lances.
    Maybe it is just Black Knight Lances are so bad that i consider similar priced mediocre cavalry to be decent.
    Post edited by tank3487 on
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,729Registered Users
    tank3487 said:


    Good melee stats?

    Dunno considering what stats similar priced Black knight Lances have. It is quite decent. They do lack armor and as result are quite squishy(For exchange gaining tonns of different buffs like Frenzy, Forest stalker, hide in forest, Vanguard deployment).
    But they do hit hard for such price.
    Of course it is not even close to bret god tier of OPnes lvl.


    Have you actually used them in game 2?

    Yeah, when tried different builds with Helm Glade Lord. But Net>Helm.
    They are MUCH better than Black Knight Lances.
    Maybe it is just Black Knight Lances are so bad that i consider similar priced mediocre cavalry to be decent.
    Well if you think BK lances are bad but WR are good we have very different opinion.

    They actually don't hit hard they hit decent, they also got very low HP and 40 armour so they take tones of dmg in return from any infantry that have decent mass.

    There is no reason to bring them in WE armies over glade riders and sisters now other than the limit of 5 missile cav stopping you doing so.

    WR were very good in game 1 i will totally admit that but between their nerfs and HP buff to infantry WR who relied on their at that time good CB and mass were performing quite well.

    Now i think in game 1 they were bit to strong but now are bit UP, so in my view are in need of a buff. But to call them strong shock cav i totally disagree.

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users


    Well if you think BK lances are bad but WR are good we have very different opinion.

    I like WR more.
    And consider BK lances mediocre. As result WR > mediocre. Again maybe it is just my wrong perception. I play mostly Norsca/VC so in this price range there is only BKL that fit. And between them and WR i would choose WR.


    They actually don't hit hard they hit decent, they also got very low HP and 40 armour so they take tones of dmg in return from any infantry that have decent mass.

    Maybe i make mistake, but i believe WR have same hp as BKL per model, so it is not low, it is mediocre. Significant less armor, better speed and Phys Resist.
    Good speed help faster engage/disengage and free choice of engagement. Light cav speed with shock damage of lance cavalry. Do not foget that they have Frenzy. So much better MA, much better WS(with better AP ratio), better CV, better melee interval i believe.

    They are not heavy cav, not elite cav. But fit role of Shock cav quite good.
  • jin4325jin4325 Posts: 18Registered Users
    edited July 12
    ok don't be serious about my opinion
    Just enjoy this game with skilled players.
    I feel disgusting about kite build and call them cheese because i'm noob ;)
    But, Though kite build is not cheese, it make noobs like me feel so disgusting.
    And I think it is natural there is some 'rock-paper-scissors game' things in MP games, but i think leaving kite sapm build as currently it is makes extreme 'rock-paper-scissors game' like Hearthstone.
    And i think there is no hope for adjusting kite-build because of some good-skilled players.
    I don't mean that is bad.
    But it's enough to make noob like me never play totalwar again.

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