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Suggestion: Limit number of elite units

WappenquaulWappenquaul Registered Users Posts: 1
edited July 2019 in General Discussion
Playing Three Kingdoms, I have just noticed something that bothers me about the recent Total War titles (sometimes it takes a bit...):

I'm playing my first campaign at the moment and have stumbled into a few battles that I couldn't win because my units were simply outdated. Now, that is of course fine, but I noticed the other army consisted almost exclusively of elite units (I forget the name, but they are all unlocked at the ends of the reforms-tree).

Somehow that began to bother me. I updated all my armies to consist of almost exclusively these expensive units. I then remembered how this was handled in Empire and Napoleon (and I think was dropped since then, but I may be wrong): elite units were limited to a certain number - you couldn't have more than, say, 4 of them.

I understand the impulse to not limit the player in enjoying late-game armies and adding in some variety. You don't end up using the same units from beginning to end but upgrade them continually. But it also broke my immersion somewhat and I think it limits the excitement of having elite units when they are unlimited.

I remember in Napoleon I thought carefully about how I should distribute the limited elite units in my armies - they were actually very valuable. In Three Kingdoms, last night, I felt like they are just the next level of units that I will now have to use almost exclusively - no need to mix it up much. ToB handled it a bit better too, I think, because through the recruitment system you couldn't just spam the higher tier units that easily and speeding up their availability came at a considerable and noticeable economic cost (primarily food). I feel like there is no such limit in Three Kingdoms. At least the Records mode should put some limitation on here to make the units feel unique and valuable.


  • SaitohSaitoh Registered Users Posts: 262
    Eh I already don't use elite units much. They cost 8x as much to recruit as militia, are only roughly 2x as good, and die to trebuchets same as militia. The elite heavy cav is honestly so slow I'd prefer light and medium cav even if the dragons costed the same amount. As it is you're paying 4x as much for something that isn't actually any better than the militia version, it's just easier to use (you can wedge through the front instead of having to flank).
  • Warlord_Lu_BuWarlord_Lu_Bu Registered Users Posts: 2,317
    I disagree with this suggestion... no limits on units please... I absolutely hate that. Let the state's economy decide whether or not a person can afford "Elite" units, not some mechanic.

    I've already proposed a more interesting idea for units to all start out as Militias... and then through experience and victories (or defeats) they gain experience and the right to use better gear... giving us (the player) more customisation to our armies, rather than just having Clone Wars soldiers that we can disband and throw away at a whim.

    Continuing on about that, I wish CA retained the unit Armourers, Weapon smiths, Bow crafters and Herders that increased the quality of weapons, armours, bows and horses visually and stats-wise, allowing us to "upgrade" our soldiers with higher tier equipment.

    Imagine leveling up an army of militia troops, from level 1 to 10 and they are still using their base equipment... then you capture a Weaponsmith and can grant those level 10 troops superior weapons, while leaving the level 2s and 3s without that equipment (if you don't have money to spare).
    "I am the punishment of Tengri, if you had not sinned, he would not have sent me against you." - Chenghis Khan Temujin
  • RO37RO37 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 527
    edited July 2019
    I'd be in favor of making the elite units capped, but just make them significantly better than they are.

    Right now, it seems like the difference between elite heavy cavalry and medium cavalry is barely noticeable. In fact, with the speed loss, I tend to prefer medium cavalry, especially given a significant cost difference.

    I wisb the end game units felt more impactful, but cap the number you can field at like say 6 or so, so you can field a full retinue of elite heavis in one army, or split them up to keep balance.

    I also have fond memories of the Imperial Guard units from Napoleon TW.
  • Fear_The_WolfFear_The_Wolf Registered Users Posts: 3,678
    Honestly take the recruitment system from ToB and apply it here, a replenishing pool of units, and a lot of the problems get more or less balanced out. The hiccup about units being basically color coded could be side stepped by having the militia units be limitless.
  • shattishatti Registered Users Posts: 426
    this game is built around characters
    too many things went far away from immersion, u just have to look for mods
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,276
    Elite units are already soft capped by economy and the fact that their performance can not (unlike Warhammer) act as a replacement for good tactics.

    Honestly, 3 Kingdoms has done elites better than other TW games; elite spam can't replace proper use of units and elites can't just he used ti replace frontline units.

    If an enemy has pumped an army full of elites, it generally means that the rest of their armies have suffered as a result, so once that army is taken down you'll have few problems with anything else that they would throw at you.
  • Grimgor_the_CAkeGrimgor_the_CAke Registered Users Posts: 1,722
    I myself prefer cap and there are usually tons of mod to make game easier but sadly not the other way around. So I always end up role-play my way in-game perhaps until I see something abnormal from the AI (such as using an all elite army).
  • Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Registered Users Posts: 3,361
    I'm not too fond of the idea of a hard cap on the number of elite units you can have in your faction at any one time. I'd much prefer a more organic way of limiting their number. I think CA should bring back Food Upkeep for units that they introduced in ToB and expand on it a bit, I always thought that was great idea.
    Tier 1 Militia units require 1 food, tier 2 professional soldiers require 2 food, and tier 3 elite units require 3 or 4 food, etc.

    To go off topic for a moment; armies need to be well-fed to fight effectively. Having a lot of armies means they use up a lot of your food, which means less food for the general population, meaning your population will grow slowly.
    Conversely, having very few armies means a surplus of food for the general population, helping your cities to grow and expand faster and encouraging you to invest more into your infrastructure to support your growing population, which helps expand your economy, which helps you field more better and bigger in your future wars.

    It would require an overhaul of the food and population mechanics in the game, but it's something I think would be a great improvement.

    Failing that, then I wouldn't be overly opposed to a hard cap on elite units.
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