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Can we Please Revamp White Lions?

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  • WyvaxWyvax Posts: 1,626Registered Users

    Wyvax said:

    Doomstacking is an issue to be sure but remedying it doesn't fix a broken unit, it just prevents spamming them. Fixing doomstacking would not have fixed the OP release Doomflayers for instance, neither will it somehow buff a mediocre unit.

    Here's the thing, in multiplayer White Lions are serviceable units because all you need to do is click a button and boom, 800 gold traded for mid tier AP infantry in a one-off battle. That's a fantastic deal.

    No.

    If you approach your army composition like that in MP, you are likely to just lose because there are a lot of things to consider like what race you are facing, what kind of units they can bring, what kind of support they have and the map your are fighting on. It's never just "800 gold for mid tier AP infantry" unless you play at a very low tier and don't know what you are doing.

    In MP you have to think about what you put in your army. In SP you just spam the elite tiers and call it a day.
    In campaign it's nowhere near as simple. To get White Lions of Chrace you need to devote several turn times and income into a niche building, choosing to build it over buildings that benefit your economy or provide more unit options. In the end you have the ability to recruit WLC and Great Eagles (another meh unit), both of which suffer immensely in autoresolve and provide mediocre returns in combat. And this after spending most of the game running the same militia grade stacks, but just before unlocking high end teir four and five units. In the end you devoted your time and resources towards niche units you probably won't use again in the campaign unless you are determined to RP. The returns you get for your investment are not worth it in the long run. Horrible deal.
    If you turn WL into a T4 or T5 unit, the Grove will gain another tier (you don't really think they'll leave them at T3, do you?). So now you have to put it in a province capital (which means 66% on average less possible building spots) and it has to compete with five other high tier recruitment buildings since HE recruitment is quite atomized and spread over a lot of buildings already. That will be the Dragon Roost for Dragons and Dragon Princes and the Handmaiden the Sisters of Avelorn and then you will probably go for the Archive line since that line gives you Swordmasters and mages. That means building WL becomes more drawn out and if they aren't noticeable better than Swordmasters not worth it. O yeah, and you also have to sacrifice a T3 spot prematurly in your capital, so you better like them eagles or the spot is wasted.

    So your argument makes the tier push look worse, not better.
    And then there's the lore and TT aspect. WLC are not cheap units, they're elite bodyguards. The fact that they're elves carrying great axes should be hint enough that they're no ordinary elgi. The reason that they're not reflective of there effectiveness and strength is solely because CA looked at their list and thought, 'they're lacking mid teir units, let's demote something', which is ridiculous when you realize that we have a race completely lacking range and another without magic and cavalry. The High Elves are all about quality over quantity, the design decisions behind the WLC are contrary to that and it shows big-time in the campaign.
    In this case gameplay > lore. As I pointed out, another infantry grinding elite unit would be redundant and you'd spam Swordmasters anyway simply because they have a more convenient building chain. If you make them way better than Swordmasters then they might be pushed to T5 and even more of a no-show.

    Fixing doomstacking would fix this simply then you could no longer stuff all your armies with 10+ swordmasters and half a dozen dragons. If you actually have to mix it up, you'll see mid-tier WL have a place.





    In regards to MP, I think those points kind of go without saying. So judging another player because I don't bring it up is a bit silly and makes a lot of assumptions. But as far as SP goes, just spamming a few elite types of elite units sounds awfully boring to me, you may as well not play. Whether early, mid or late game, I'm consciously tweaking each army for the enemies I plan to send them against. Barring events like the Everchosen Invitaional, campaigns will always be higher stakes and investment then any quick battle. Approaching it like it's a steam roller, while viable, just isn't fun.


    I agree with you on the Grove building and hypothetical chain. There simply isn't enough incentive to build one. Just as the White Lions of Chrace and Great Eagles need some love, so does the building they are recruited from. It just doesn't do enough right now. Though if said units can be made fun to use in campaign, I'd argue that's enough to make it a viable building.

    Gameplay is definitely more important than lore. But the choice to demote White Lions was unnecessary. They are a unit designed for planned obsolescence. That's what's most damning about them, and any unit with that design philosophy in mind really. It's not cool. Even in their current form I'd argue that they are mediocre at what they do, not enough base melee defense. The thing is that WLoC can be made into a great unit that reflects their TT/lore nature and doesn't overshadow SMoH or PG or vice versa. As we've pointed out before, make them the flexible middle ground between the two, with a couple of boons of their own such as high base damage, charge bonus and forest buffs. Keep the current White Lions (with defense buff) and make Chracian Hunters as others have said.


    They're underwhelming units in campaign. They're still underwhelming with the TT unit caps mod. They need buffs and tweaks to their auto resolve.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer
  • WazabazabaWazabazaba Posts: 20Registered Users
    High elves need a mid tier infantry. Doing Allariel’s campaign without white lions early is impossible. Spearmen and archers with no AP can not take the Phoenix gate from the Scourge of Kain’s Black guard. Having to sit there and twiddle your thumbs for yet another high tier unit makes the campaign boring and unnecessarily stagnant.

    I find it ironic that people argue that white lions not being high tier is not truthful to the TT. Yet they would instead endorse a new unit that never existed in the TT instead.

    What possible role would another high tier infantry serve? You want chaff killers? You have SMs. You want monsters hunters (which are all large) you have PG. The only role left is a jack of trades that is either over tuned and invalidates the other two or is worthless and will never see play anyways.
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