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Warhammer Races & Ethnicity

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  • brago90brago90 Registered Users Posts: 516
    Simple, warhammer fantasy is mainly focused on the European public and has many years behind it (Games whorkshop was founded in 1975) so that in the vast majority of its products the ethnic inclusion was a total and absolute stupidity as a concept since that It is a current of thought coming from the hand of modern intolerant people.

    In short, there are no black factions of importance because at that time no one cared about blacks as a target audience.
    The closest thing to that is the black orcs and they are literally a genetic experiment made out of slaves that went wrong and currently govern a lot of madmen obsessed with killing and eating things.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 21,144
    edited July 2019
    The ethnicity of good races simply represents the main target market.
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,081

    Also interesting to note how "more diversity" created the female generals controversy in Rome. People were up in arms and CA didn't back down with the "historically authentic not accurate" argument.
    In hindsight the whole thing was totally unnecessary since female generals would have a huge role in the Warhammer series, and no one would have a problem with it because it´s a FANTASY SETTING!

    CA was also going overboard with it in the Vampire Coast DLC, also the Empire and Bretonnia are similar to their real life counterparts, that means that a Female Empire Captains don't much make sense.
  • Rithrin216Rithrin216 Registered Users Posts: 109
    Tayvar said:

    Also interesting to note how "more diversity" created the female generals controversy in Rome. People were up in arms and CA didn't back down with the "historically authentic not accurate" argument.
    In hindsight the whole thing was totally unnecessary since female generals would have a huge role in the Warhammer series, and no one would have a problem with it because it´s a FANTASY SETTING!

    CA was also going overboard with it in the Vampire Coast DLC, also the Empire and Bretonnia are similar to their real life counterparts, that means that a Female Empire Captains don't much make sense.
    Because they had a fat lady? One lord you don't like is not going overboard.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,081

    Tayvar said:

    Also interesting to note how "more diversity" created the female generals controversy in Rome. People were up in arms and CA didn't back down with the "historically authentic not accurate" argument.
    In hindsight the whole thing was totally unnecessary since female generals would have a huge role in the Warhammer series, and no one would have a problem with it because it´s a FANTASY SETTING!

    CA was also going overboard with it in the Vampire Coast DLC, also the Empire and Bretonnia are similar to their real life counterparts, that means that a Female Empire Captains don't much make sense.
    Because they had a fat lady? One lord you don't like is not going overboard.
    It's not just about the lady from the body positive campaign, both of the female legendary lords in the Vampire Coast DLC was highly controversial, and there was a lot of female generic captains.
  • Sparkwarrior777Sparkwarrior777 Registered Users Posts: 164
    Me: huh this hasn’t turned into a flame forum about race yet.

    My mind: give it 20 more posts

    But I’m all honesty I would actually be fine if they added diversity in other games but in warhammer it is already a set up universe let’s not change that. Just Give us what has already been put into it. With minor creative liberties.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,081
    brago90 said:

    Simple, warhammer fantasy is mainly focused on the European public and has many years behind it (Games whorkshop was founded in 1975) so that in the vast majority of its products the ethnic inclusion was a total and absolute stupidity as a concept since that It is a current of thought coming from the hand of modern intolerant people.

    In short, there are no black factions of importance because at that time no one cared about blacks as a target audience.
    The closest thing to that is the black orcs and they are literally a genetic experiment made out of slaves that went wrong and currently govern a lot of madmen obsessed with killing and eating things.

    You don't like the black orcs? and how about the savage orcs, you don't like them as well?
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 21,144
    @Tayvar They were only controversial to the minority who chose to find them "controversial".

    Myself I always find it peculiar when in a game with war obsessed fungus, magical evil Vikings, & Dinosaurs riding Dinosaurs that females participating in war is deemed to "not make much sense".
    Thanks CA for working with Epic Games to give us Troy for free!
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,473
    I will say this, i have seen GW paint all kinds over the years (incl a few asian looking DEs)
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,081
    @Vanilla_Gorilla did you saw how big and muscular are those magical evil vikings, did you? :)
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,473
    And GW has done alot of ogres over many editions very "european" and then alot were inspired by "mongols".

    To say the setting is easy to adapt is an understatement.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,081

    And GW has done alot of ogres over many editions very "european" and then alot were inspired by "mongols".

    To say the setting is easy to adapt is an understatement.

    Now the Ogres has an mongolian theme, but GW choose to keep ignoring Cathay for the most part.
  • Khaine1godKhaine1god Registered Users Posts: 431

    Spouting intelectual fallacies dosen t make for a good argument .I have seen enough of both sides of the spectrum to know both are creasy and the only different's between thme is that sjw are the cause and the anti-sjw are the reaction.Most of us here tried to answer the op with out starting a mess,because the way he formulated his question can be considered a dog whistle.

    And you know the funny part?Every one even me tried to keep it neutral and not mention sjw/anti-sjw who are the most prominent and loud groups.And he you are pointing fingers, allocating blame and pointing at the enemy tribe.

    "I'm Totally Triggered Now. Black Orcs are owed reparations." "Race Obsessed Times" Those aren't neutral and it's only from one side. Depending on the platform you'll mostly hear from one side since they form an echo-chamber there. Twitter has more of one side and gamers and youtube more of the other. The reasonable people here are the ones acknowledging that Warhammer was made in a different time when representation wasn't on the minds of those creating games and other forms of media since creators weren't as diverse then and our society was less integrated. But now representation/diversity appears to be at the forefront in a lot of media because this is all fairly new. But people will just dismiss it as being "obsessed with race" and think that race was less of an issue in the past because they were never confronted by it and never had to think about it, so it was easy to ignore.
    "I'm Totally Triggered Now. Black Orcs are owed reparations'' Those where eviden t jokes and baits that you evidently bit.
    ''Depending on the platform you'll mostly hear from one side since they form an echo-chamber there. Twitter has more of one side and gamers and youtube more of the other''

    Twiiter i can agree but youtube i very diverse from far leftists,centrists,classic liberals and conservatives,they are viewd as an echo chamber only by those on the far left because there so left everything is far-right to them(going by american politics).''


    ''The reasonable people here are the ones acknowledging that Warhammer was made in a different time when representation wasn't on the minds. The reasonable people here are the ones acknowledging that Warhammer was made in a different time when representation wasn't on the minds of those creating games and other forms of media since creators weren't as diverse then and our society was less integrated. But now representation/diversity appears to be at the forefront in a lot of media because this is all fairly new. But people will just dismiss it as being "obsessed with race" and think that race was less of an issue in the past because they were never confronted by it and never had to think about it, so it was easy to ignore''

    The only thing diverse about today ideea of diversity is skin deep no more no less.Many try to justifie it and suger coat it but if you go at it layer by layer its only skin deep ,it creates a very bad iddea of race/ethnicity awerness that creates problmes where there where no problems and presents no valide solution becuse the problems are represented by non interchangeable characteristics,thats why you hear these so called''champions of diversity'' pointing out the need of diversity in places where it is not needed because there original material(games,ip,fanatsy universe) in there minde is ''problematic''through there eyes becuse it presents a problem to there(onlye there) ideea of diversity.

    Warhammer is a veery diverse universe if you do not look at through the persepective of todays rose tinted lenses of diversity,witch acts like no movie,ip,fantasy universe etc.was ''divers''before 2014(the year this so called ''diversity'' trend gained traction).The biggest example are the elves.By todays standerds of ''diversity'' the elves are not divers because ther all tall ,somewhat pale,skiny,fit pointy eared humanoids.Witch is bs,they look the same but there coltures,way of thinking,religion,fighting style is vastly differante.That is diversity.
    The biggest example of ''bad'' diversity today is the new netflix series that will adapt the Witcher fantasy unvirese.The chreators of the series canhged a character that is female white skinded with red head sorceres named Triss into a black haired ,african woman.A existing cahracters that had its skin color and hair color changed but there personality ,morality,motivation stayed the same.And that form of diversity is pushed by the people(including the media and big corporations) who champion and push diversity today and they also think there doing the right thing by implementing ''diversity'' like that.
  • uriakuriak Registered Users Posts: 3,421
    Seriously, why start from the idea that the topic is like nitroglycerin or something ?

    GW just went with fantasy elements from the times and the normal medieval fantasy. When they wanted to introduce other cultures they indeed included non human species (or undeads) We have since then mapped a bit of their influence about possible other cultural metaphors (HE as british empire) but they were certainly mostly elves as introduced by Tokien and others.

    Then I suppose they decided to include some other human cultures to "fill the voids" but never explored more than necessary and decided to roughly fit the most basic idea of ancient culture + fantasy tropes to them. Hence the old cathay, araby, Nippon, pygmees, amazons descriptions.

    About dwarfs, there is indeed a more complex backstory but they didn't really dwelved on it. I think they wanted to stay true to a monolithic approach about them and maybe, describing proto dwarfs (or proto elves) wasn't easy. I mean with the Old ones lore, there is less of an organic origin to them, and since their feature is having a continuous culture spanning millenia (sure if the individuals live centuries...) it's hard to imagine dwarfs with a vastly different look.
    Then come the chaos dwarfs, but it feels a bit like a random combination, with an assyrian theme to fit a fire/malefic deity.

    For greenskins, they did explore the concept of several variants, especially with goblins. Forest goblins, marshes, night goblins, hobgoblins and steppe goblins have indeed several looks and at least for hobgoblins are physiologically different. Then we have snotlings, gnoblars... GS are certainly the other species that can be divided into very distinct cultures and "ethnicities" if you wish. Honestly I would find very cool if with their update, at least the savage variants could be further explored, I haven't read anything about jungle goblins, but it's not a long stretch to think they share a lot with forest goblins (spiders are an ideal creature for jungle factions, too)
  • Khaine1godKhaine1god Registered Users Posts: 431

    @Tayvar They were only controversial to the minority who chose to find them "controversial".

    ''Myself I always find it peculiar when in a game with war obsessed fungus, magical evil Vikings, & Dinosaurs riding Dinosaurs that females participating in war is deemed to "not make much sense".

    ''

    Just because you can dose n t mean you should.And Warhammer has more then enough capable female characters,heroes,and units(give me the sisters of sigmar https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Sisters_of_Sigmar ) that offer actual diversity ,and still need to be implemented.You can have CA make your female empire captain just like that,the same cahracters,nothing new or original,that has no sense from the empire cultural perspective,and the perspective of the universe aka the height of tokenism for a minority of people(a minority just like the naysayers) with a ''diversity'' fetish.

    Every one would be on board for creative diversity here and there should it be implemented well and makes sense.I hate it when people use Cylostra Direfin as an example because she is a very warhammery character.Greedy narcissist singer with glory dreams cheated by fate and then ''saved''(turned into a vengeful ghost) and used by hungry god as a puppet for his own ends.
  • sandercohensandercohen Registered Users Posts: 259
    White representation in the game is based on the fact that the relevant races are heavily inspired by historical European cultures. The Empire is clearly inspired by the Holy Roman Empire, Wood Elfs by Gaelic/Irish culture, Dwarfs somewhat on Scottish culture, Bretonnia on Frankish culture and so on. It just wouldn't sit right with me if these races suddenly started showing up with diverse skin colors, so I'd prefer them to remain white. I just cant imagine a black high elf mage or anything like that.

    Perhaps these kind of topics would cease popping up once factions like Araby, Chaos dwarfs (Eastern looming Dwarfs) or even Cathay are included. I would be equally dismayed if Araby would suddenly show 50% white faces. It just wouldn't feel right unless there is a specific lore reason (such as mercenary companies) for doing so.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,081

    @Tayvar They were only controversial to the minority who chose to find them "controversial".

    ''Myself I always find it peculiar when in a game with war obsessed fungus, magical evil Vikings, & Dinosaurs riding Dinosaurs that females participating in war is deemed to "not make much sense".

    Just because you can dose n t mean you should.And Warhammer has more then enough capable female characters,heroes,and units(give me the sisters of sigmar https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Sisters_of_Sigmar ) that offer actual diversity ,and still need to be implemented.You can have CA make your female empire captain just like that,the same cahracters,nothing new or original,that has no sense from the empire cultural perspective,and the perspective of the universe aka the height of tokenism for a minority of people(a minority just like the naysayers) with a ''diversity'' fetish.

    Every one would be on board for creative diversity here and there should it be implemented well and makes sense.I hate it when people use Cylostra Direfin as an example because she is a very warhammery character.Greedy narcissist singer with glory dreams cheated by fate and then ''saved''(turned into a vengeful ghost) and used by hungry god as a puppet for his own ends.
    The Sisters of Sigmar Order was destroyed, but maybe they would find a way to revive that Order.
  • amon_chakaiamon_chakai Registered Users Posts: 224
    I honestly had no idea there was a gender/body-image related issue with the Vampire Coast until now. A quick google search revealed a reddit thead where the OP was a "female gamer" complaining about "oversexualization" of female characters who are "submissive to the men of the story".
    Needless to say, some of the replies are golden.

    https://reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/ar02b9/total_war_warhammer_2s_surprisingly_positive/
  • brago90brago90 Registered Users Posts: 516
    edited July 2019
    Tayvar said:

    brago90 said:

    Simple, warhammer fantasy is mainly focused on the European public and has many years behind it (Games whorkshop was founded in 1975) so that in the vast majority of its products the ethnic inclusion was a total and absolute stupidity as a concept since that It is a current of thought coming from the hand of modern intolerant people.

    In short, there are no black factions of importance because at that time no one cared about blacks as a target audience.
    The closest thing to that is the black orcs and they are literally a genetic experiment made out of slaves that went wrong and currently govern a lot of madmen obsessed with killing and eating things.

    You don't like the black orcs? and how about the savage orcs, you don't like them as well?
    Along with Skavens and dark elves the green, or not so green XD, skins are my favorites. So black orcs and wild orcs like me.

  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,081

    I honestly had no idea there was a gender/body-image related issue with the Vampire Coast until now. A quick google search revealed a reddit thead where the OP was a "female gamer" complaining about "oversexualization" of female characters who are "submissive to the men of the story".
    Needless to say, some of the replies are golden.

    https://reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/ar02b9/total_war_warhammer_2s_surprisingly_positive/

    Complaining about Witch Elves while being okay with Norscan Mr. Fanservice was always funny. :)
  • FenristhegreatFenristhegreat Member Registered Users Posts: 475
    steph74 said:

    Like this?

    These are my Bowmen of Oreon






    Had CA produced this for the market I would have been furious because it's un-loreful.

    That you wanted it and created it for yourself is wonderful. Well done!
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Registered Users Posts: 2,576
    In the "Master of dragons" book it describes a high elf colony in the badlands, and the elves living there have darker skin due to the constant exposure to the sun.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 11,397
    Dwarfs and WE are not even inspired by European culture, they are basically copy and paste out of Lord of the Rings and classic Fantasy novels.

    High Elves are basically a mix of British Colonialism and antique Athens. Dark Elves represent the American Colonies and Sparta. This historical context together with LotR elements are the base for both factions.

    So yeah looking at the whole Warhammer world, it is a mix of History, myths together with elements of classic fantasy like LotR.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 20,339
    Needless to say, this T&C requirement has not been meant. Thread is closed.

    5.2a Country, faction and culture threads have a regular tendency to break our forum rules. If a certain culture, faction or country is not included in the game it is purely due to design reasons and not due to any other factor such as politics or prejudice.
    5.2b All history is, to some degree, the received view of those who record, recount or interpret it. When discussing culture, faction or country we expect a very high calibre of rationale. Expressions of nationalism or racism will not be tolerated. Any thread that has deviated from its course will be closed.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
This discussion has been closed.