Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

The five kinds of TW players

2»

Comments

  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,351Registered Users
    Every faction plays the same because we simply have only one boring unit roster for everybody.


    You mean like in Shogun 2 because we only had only one culture group ?
    Or you mean like in Rome 2 : Wrath of Sparta because we only had one culture group ?
    (Which is a point that's been raised time and time again but you know, why not, it's not because it's been said many times that it became wrong or anything)

    I mean, what are or even were you expecting really ? Yuan Shao to pop out the DRAGONFLAMMENWERFER to fight off Lu Bu's DEATHMETALUNICORNS while Liu Bei and Cao Cao would ride onto the sunset on their FLYING CARPETS (with bombs obviously) while drinking rice wine ? (Disclaimer : For all the history maniacs out there, I'm not familiar with alchool, even less so with ancient chinese beverages, so please don't nitpick on that)

    Like see the units CA gave to every faction in this ? That was a PAID DLC in Shogun 2. And it does bring a bit of diversity to anyone willing to play the game instead of just trying to cheese with whatever they can. At which point you just take cavalry, trebs, archers and Ji's (because high AP + anticav) and let's go - or you just apply the "Legend™" strategy and give up on battles (aka bring 4 stacks with random militia units and hit that autoresolve button) because they are the same since at least Med2 (Form line, engage with archers, flank with cavalry, rinse, repeat. which is why I like Romance more than Records... strong individual generals (like our boy Lu to the Bu) do tend to spice up the battles)
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,465Registered Users
    edited August 2
    Honestly Shogun 2 is already a decade ago and should not be the standard anymore when it’s about diversity. It was a good game back then but after Rome 2 and Warhammer it is just boring and bland in my opinion. I never really liked Shogun 2 because every faction was literally the same except of the colour.

    And well Wrath of Sparta... Seriously??😂
    Is that the standard CA should focus on?
    WoS is literally the worst DLC for Rome 2 and was just a big fail. The reasons for that? Exactly, every faction had the same units what made the campaign boring.
    I have 2500 h in Rome 2 and played Wrath of Sparta maybe for about 5h before I get bored of it...

    So these two are the worst examples you could make.
    ToB was a flop because most players complained about the missing unit diversity and that every faction played the same.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,351Registered Users
    You're not answering the question.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,465Registered Users
    edited August 2
    What I miss in terms of Unit variety is just different local troops. We already have Yi archers so why not a whole Yi roster with different stats and reskin. That’s pretty much how Hoplites were designed in Rome 2... spartan hoplites, Libyan Hoplites, Persian Hoplites, skythian Hoplites, Carthagian Hoplites, Massilian Hoplites, desert Hoplites, Illyrian hoplites, normal hoplites, Etruscan hoplites...

    So every Warlords in 3k could get a different unit roster representing the province they start in. I‘m sure Soldiers in the hot southern jungle areas had a different style then Soldiers in the hard steppes.
    All the faction specific Units are designed like that but this is not enough and just a missed opportunity. Yuan Shao has His special Ye Infantry unit. It would make him more interesting when he would get: Ye cavalry, Ye Archers, Ye Milita, Ye spear Guard and so on.
  • markp27markp27 Posts: 1,296Registered Users
    edited August 2
    Rewan said:

    You're not answering the question.

    The simple fact is China was not one culture during this period of time. The north and south were very different culturally. The north was breeding bigger and faster horses, creating more heavy cavalry to compete against northern tribes. The south west of the country comprised of tough hill fighters and short stout horses, which became the Shu's Flying Army. The south of the country was made of tough bandit and pirates. They learned to fight not just on land but the water too.

    The Japanese were a lot more similar, as they are so much smaller than China.

    Roman legions were founded in Rome then sent to where they needed to be. Again limiting cultural diversity.

    I would of liked to have seen the diversity of China fully exploited.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,351Registered Users
    edited August 2
    Persian Hoplites, skythian Hoplites, Carthagian Hoplites, Massilian Hoplites, desert Hoplites, Illyrian hoplites, normal hoplites, Etruscan hoplites


    ... but they all play the same and overall kinda do look the same. What happened to your point about "being boring"
    Like seriously ? That's it ? The only thing you're complaining about is that they actually look boring LOOKING ? (Not even boring gameplay wise)


    Please tell me I'm wrong.

  • markp27markp27 Posts: 1,296Registered Users
    Rewan said:

    Persian Hoplites, skythian Hoplites, Carthagian Hoplites, Massilian Hoplites, desert Hoplites, Illyrian hoplites, normal hoplites, Etruscan hoplites


    ... but they all play the same and overall kinda do look the same. What happened to your point about "being boring"
    Like seriously ? That's it ? The only thing you're complaining about is that they actually look boring LOOKING ? (Not even boring gameplay wise)


    Please tell me I'm wrong.

    You are wrong. It is the gameplay aspect too. If they diversified the troops in each province then you would see it all change. Looks of troops, the way troops act etc. So much range is possible in this period. Do you imagine the jungle fighters of Nanman would behave the same as Northern tribes of Shu who were hill fighters? Every region used and had different tribes, who helped the local lord.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,465Registered Users
    edited August 2
    The one big improvement for 3k is that it is gameplay wise nearly perfect! Honestly I love the game and don’t want to hate on it.
    But every faction having the exact same units is boring...
    Sparta was one of the most popular factions because of its unique units (and of course because it’s Sparta). I mean yeah Spartan Hoplites were just a historical correct reskin with op stats but that added so much flavour to the faction.
    If Carthage would’ve had the same units like Athens because „hoplite = hoplite“ it would be boring and everybody would’ve raged against that.

    I can just speak for myself but those different units make the game still so interesting for me. Every faction has different units and a different focus in warfare.

    Sparta is pure infantry
    Athen is pure naval Battle
    Macedonia is pure pikes and cav
    Egypt Is a well rounded up mix with a focus on desert warfare
    Odrysian Kingdom is pure Peltasts
    Parthia is pure horse archers

    In 3k every faction is exactly the same in battle, doesn’t matter if it’s Big Dong or Sun Jiang.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,351Registered Users
    You are wrong. It is the gameplay aspect too. If they diversified the troops in each province then you would see it all change. Looks of troops, the way troops act etc. So much range is possible in this period. Do you imagine the jungle fighters of Nanman would behave the same as Northern tribes of Shu who were hill fighters? Every region used and had different tribes, who helped the local lord.


    Wasn't talking to you buddy since you unfortunately go over things that are beyond my expertise. Well I mean except the fact that if CA ever wanted to release the amount of work you seemingly expect from them it would take them two or three more years to do it (which I hope is the lifespan of 3K content so hey, good enough)


    If Carthage would’ve had the same units like Athens because „hoplite = hoplite“ it would be boring and everybody would’ve raged against that.


    But they do have the same units, one or two points difference in melee attack and a different name doesn't make a different unit. Be it Rome 2 or Attila you pretty much only have 3 playstyles :

    - Line Infantry / Archers / Flank Cavalry with most Greek + Rome + Most barbarians and Germanic/Rome/Eastern faction in TW:Attila

    - Balls to the walls with factions like the Odrysian kingdom (which aren't considered greeks in the game by all means) or the Celts in TW:Attila

    - Relying heavily on hit and run tactic with cavalry (Trademark of an EASTERN not greek - even if they are hoplites those aren't greek hoplites - faction like Parthia or the Nomads, be it in Attila or Rome 2)

    Athens ? You mean the roster with pretty much nothing except 3 free chevrons on their naval troops. I mean the campaign bonuses are pretty much the only thing that makes a difference between them and Syracuse.
  • markp27markp27 Posts: 1,296Registered Users
    edited August 2
    Rewan said:

    You are wrong. It is the gameplay aspect too. If they diversified the troops in each province then you would see it all change. Looks of troops, the way troops act etc. So much range is possible in this period. Do you imagine the jungle fighters of Nanman would behave the same as Northern tribes of Shu who were hill fighters? Every region used and had different tribes, who helped the local lord.


    Wasn't talking to you buddy since you unfortunately go over things that are beyond my expertise. Well I mean except the fact that if CA ever wanted to release the amount of work you seemingly expect from them it would take them two or three more years to do it (which I hope is the lifespan of 3K content so hey, good enough)

    The problem is they may not have that long to fix these issues, with steam now having ROTK 14 up in it's store as coming soon. Many players will be going back to that if CA does not complete more work in the main game. From the info provided it sounds as though they have vastly improved ROTK in terms of how factions work and given them greater diversity based on your characters.
  • BreadboxBreadbox Posts: 780Registered Users
    edited August 2
    There is plenty of regional differences in troops, but precisely none of it is taken advantage of.

    The south has almost no warhorses at all. But they are known for being great sailors, proficient in fire attack, having access to unrelenting mountain warriors. They are also known for using more short weapons over polearms.
    They are definitely at a disadvantage on land, but their numerous rivers and subtropic climate help them to resist northern armies.

    Yuan Shao and Gongsun zan are located to the north, they are the earliest known warlords to incorporate significant nomadic elements in their large cavalry forces.

    Barbarian factions? Watch me awkwardly slice off the edge of the map as to exclude them completely.

    Etc etc

    Guess what aspect of it is portrayed? Buggery all, those ‘unique unit’ that every warlord gets is barely a reskin. The elite white horse companion of Gongsun zan, literally just a renamed bow cavalry.

    Not going to mince words here: It’s **** trash, no visible effort at all. Everyone everywhere is the same, but hey, have seen this literally who over here? He can burp thunder and fart earthquake. It’s time stop, stop trying to sell a setting with nobodies, Sima Who? He died immediately without accomplishing anything but he’s actually really cool if he tried.
    Maybe try to capture what made the world diverse/interesting at that time. The amount of **** dynasty warrior influence here is immense.

    /rant
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,465Registered Users
    I know those units are just reskins but they still do look different and have Different armour, Different helmets and so on...

    It simply adds flavour to the faction having its own local units with a different look. Skythian Hoplites have a Skythian look while they are still Hoplites for example with a spear and a shield. Those esthetics are one of the major selling points in total war games.

    You are right, Syracuse and Athens are exactly the same and that was the reason why everybody was complaining about them. “Why should I play Syracuse and not Athens they are the same?”

    Of course we could get just one hoplite unit for everybody and one sword unit for everybody and the game would still work. But it would be boring...

    Honest question, are you happy with the unit roster and their clone design? That’s actually the biggest concern most players have with 3k and „local provincial troops“ would just increase the uniqueness of the different factions.
    When we just look at Battles, Zheng Jiang and Liu Bei are identical except of their 2 „unique“ units.

    After the 3. campaign I nearly autoresolved my way through the other 5 because they are all the same. You fight the same boring Milita unit all over and over and over and over again. You can’t tell me that this isn’t boring 😂
  • mitthrawnuruodomitthrawnuruodo Junior Member Posts: 1,660Registered Users
    edited August 2
    You forgot about the sixth kind -

    Whiner: Does not matter what it is, I will make a hundred posts complaining about it.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 18,653Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Moved to TW Chat.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • BoombastekBoombastek Posts: 2,017Registered Users
    According to this i naive optimistic cynical realist.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Posts: 4,117Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    It doesn’t matter how old a game developer is and how much experience it has if they employers are bad.
    Just compare the quality of 3k with other historical titles, especially Rome 2. (I know the launch was horrible but that’s not my point)

    Faction Diversity and unit design in 3k are terrible. Honestly I love the game but all these militia clones look just bad compared to Rome 2 units, so that was definitely a big step backwards.
    Every faction plays the same because we simply have only one boring unit roster for everybody.

    The rise of the republic DLC costs 17€ and has more unit diversity than 3k. The units are thousand times better designed then all these bland 3k minions. Just look at the heavy Etruscan Hoplite unit and then compare it with a unit of Ji infantry.... every soldier inside a unit looks exactly the same, even special units like Xiliang Cava have no variety.
    I spent hours with just looking at the beautiful designed units in Rome 2 but in 3k... every unit looks horrible and bland.

    Everybody complained about the bad unit design and missing variety in ToB, but in 3k it is even worse. It seems that CA is setting the standard lower and lower with every game.

    Furthermore is CAs marketing worse then ever before, they just killed warhammer 2 with a bad DLC schedule and now it seems that they do the same with 3k.

    Unit diversity is a single element. Diplomacy is almost worthless in R2 while it is far more useful in 3K Shogun 2 has the worst unit diversity yet is still considered a popular game.

    Just by looking at the reviews on Steam you can see how much more popular 3K is.

    CA's marketing isn't fully decided by the marketing team. If the programming team tell them they can't release DLCs as fast as the first game then that's out of the marketing departments hands:

    -The fan who understands the video games world better than Sega and CA's marketing team due to their extensive experience of looking at forums and listening to Youtubers. If only CA would listen to this genius they'd have 0 issues.

    -The fan who is a business expert due to his many Google searches of management/business styles that they feel will, again, solve CA's issues.

Sign In or Register to comment.