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Legendary lords battles:Gor-Rok the Great White Lizard vs Tetto'eko Astronomer of the Constellations

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  • forthekey67forthekey67 Registered Users Posts: 146

    In many ways Tetto'eko is the better suited for DLC but I think CA will want to bring in another saurus instead (especially since we first heard about the second round of lord packs in response to the "no Gor Rok" backlash).
    The ideas in the OP could definitely form the basis of his campaign mechanics.

    One obvious way to spruce up Gor-Rok in battle that I haven't seen mentioned is to give him a Troglodon mount. It would stand out from Kroq-Gar and avoids the useless foot lord problem.

    That would only work if they made Gor-Rok standard infantry size as most lore suggests he's much larger than that. Having him on a Troglodon, a smaller carnosaur, might look weird if they do go with him being monstrous sized.
    Isn't the Troglodon the same size as a carnosaur?
    You're right though, can't make him too much larger than a standard saurus or it wouldn't work.
    My guess is he will have a bulkier and more imposing model but not necessarily much bigger than most LLs are.
    Iokko said:

    In many ways Tetto'eko is the better suited for DLC but I think CA will want to bring in another saurus instead (especially since we first heard about the second round of lord packs in response to the "no Gor Rok" backlash).
    The ideas in the OP could definitely form the basis of his campaign mechanics.

    One obvious way to spruce up Gor-Rok in battle that I haven't seen mentioned is to give him a Troglodon mount. It would stand out from Kroq-Gar and avoids the useless foot lord problem.

    I see your point but there are ways to make foot lords good, and i don't mean just making them tanky (which gor rok should definitely be though)

    Think about morghur, noctilus, aranessa, skrolk, ikit and so on, characters with a lot of utility, summons, buffing or hexing abilities, AoE damage or effects, direct damage or bombardments, etc.

    So, just as an example, what if to go along with the tank theme, gor rok's shield gave AoE armour and charge defense vs all? Or maybe melee defense instead of armor, though that would be much stronger.

    Gor rok is also stubborn, so maybe he can considerably increase leadership around him, focusing even more on that tough, grindy melee playstyle.

    Just a few thoughts here, I'm sure we can come up with similar ideas for Tetto Eko or nakai or anyone else really.
    They should certainly give him support abilities regardless. Maybe some sort of charge deflection would be interesting?
    The problem with these melee tank characters is that you can only make them so good on foot. In the end no matter how strong an ability they have it can't make up for the loss of mobility. This is worse in the lizardmen faction, where the infantry is slow and all the other characters are riding around on dinosaurs.

    Even if Gor-Rok was strong on foot it still makes sense to put him on a troglodon for campaign progression purposes.
    All DLC lords recently have been getting mount options, I don't think CA is going to change that if they can avoid it.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,729
    I thought the troglodon was supposed to be slightly smaller lore wise? I mean, the model was just a convert so if they go by that it shouldn't be much different, but I thought from the lore it was supposed to be a little smaller.
    SiWI: "no they just hate you and I don't blame them."
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 22,312
    Posts with inappropriate in off topic personal comments posts removed or edited along with several comments quoting in a response, with the appropriate warnings given. Discuss the thread topic without rancor or personal bias, or don't comment.
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  • LabriaLabria Registered Users Posts: 1,971
    Gor-Rok should stay foot lord. He is too big for mount. This will be weird.

    Tetto'eko is more fit for Troglodon mount ever with his chair. After all, we have only Skinks with Troglodon mount.
    Dwarfs need Slayer Lord pack: https://imgur.com/x74HxxU
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Crossil

    I'm disrespectful only to those who are disrespectful towards me. only to you and those like you when you don't allow any discourse outside of what you think should be allowed. If you look back you will see i changed my tone with Arthas because he was willing to be civil and human with me.

    I've already said i don't want to throw the lore out the window, you are turning me into a caricature so you can dismiss what i'm saying.

    "What makes you think I haven't argued against some of these things?" I wasn't assuming that you haven't, quite the opposite. I was pointing that out to illustrate that you are the kind of person who adheres to the lore more than CA and GW actually do.

    I was pointing out these examples to show you that CA does break these kind of rules regularly and that its ironic that you would throw suggestions of Nakai out the window because "CA cant do that" but then at the same time you admit that you also criticise CA for doing that exact kind of thing regularly. in other words: CA regularly does things that you think they shouldn't be able to do, yet you are still speaking out against things they 'cant do'.

    There is a distinction to be made here between:

    -The lore/fluff and the world (which i know and respect)

    -The rules of the old defunct board game (my knowledge varies and it acts more as guidelines for translation into WH2)

    -and the games (which i know and respect)

    I do know the lore and I check it regularly when having this sort of discussion. Talking to you has made me realise something though: that lore purists like yourself are well versed in the rules of the old board game, yet you don't seem to understand the Video game half as well and don't seem to have looked into the video game as much as I have. You also don't seem to acknowledge or care about the trends of the company, limitations of the medium and how they are willing to and often have to change things in order to implement it.

    Our debate on something like Nakai isn't even about Nakai; its about how you are not looking at something like this from a practical standpoint, a business standpoint, from a standpoint of empathy for the fans or anything like that. You don't care about any of that or any of the people who might want that. you do not respect the reality of the situation or the ideas, desires or contributions of others in the community; you only seem to care about these old board game rules and your personal investment in them.

    You keep saying that I want to throw everything out the window for my own selfish desires, but the truth is that I really do like to try and justify things in the source material and as you would have seen in my other threads: I will put prioritise something if the lore justifies it more, so long as its also justified in game and an overall better option and so on.

    As an example: remember we discussed Wissenland and I was saying how Averland is less justified in getting mountainous regions and Wasteland as suitable climates because of the Lore and landscape of the province. I said to you that Averland could still get these climates if it was implemented because an Averland campaign would necessitate it gameplay wise, but WIssenland is justified in its lore, Landscape and gameplay to get these climates. That is an example of us being on the other side of this kind of debate. I'm still fine with Averland getting those climates as suitable and with us potentially getting Averland as a playable faction at some point, but I prioritise and favour Wissenland because its more justified via its lore and brings far more to the table. So you see: this is not only an example of me respecting an opinion of yours that differs from mine; its also an example of me prioritising lore lore justification and gameplay justification over just a gameplay justification.

    The difference between us is that I respect ideas that require some flexibility when translating them to the game. I respect Vampire coast, Vad being there and all those different design decisions. I understand that WH2 is a totally different game from TT and what that means for translating things from one to the other. I respect it when people want something that is in the lore but doesn't function exactly as it would in WH2. But you do not; and you actively tirade against other peoples ideas, against CA's design decisions and in essence, people like yourselves have bullied the discourse into tiptoeing around you or have forced people to change their minds because "wow i guess that wouldn't be well to do".

    That's why I have been somewhat hostile, I'm not actually angry and I'm not intentionally trying to upset you, I am being defiant against your own disrespect of me and of all those in the community who have ideas you dislike. In essence: I don't respect opinions that inherently don't respect others and their opinions. I am not tolerant of intolerance, no matter the shape or form.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • IokkoIokko Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 967
    Labria said:

    Gor-Rok should stay foot lord. He is too big for mount. This will be weird.

    Tetto'eko is more fit for Troglodon mount ever with his chair. After all, we have only Skinks with Troglodon mount.

    Agreed about gor-rok. I'd be ok with tetto 'eko getting a Troglodon mount, it would be cool if the whole palenquin went on top. Of. It actually.
    Stating opinions as if they're facts in your signature and adding "Change my mind" doesn't make them facts, change my mind.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Draculasaurus

    Warhammer describes loads of Lords and heroes in a similar manner to Nakai where they are like "some say hes just a spirit or god made manifest"

    as I said before, his lore also states that he has not pledged to a master since his last one died, implying he has the agency to do so and its made very clear that he is smarter than most Kroxigors since he doesn't need handlers and understands how to use his weapon (with other Krox don't). It is also said that hes one of the ones who travelled out to Albion to help claim and maintain it. I don't see how he would have gotten to the point of travelling with them without having the desire to do so, without helping in more ways than just killing people.

    I don't think it would be a stretch to make him intelligent to some degree. even if hes no genius and more of an emotional creature like half way between a person and an animal, that could still justify his inclusion as a Lord.

    We know that skinks worship him, some think his weapon contains the spirit of one of the Lizardmen gods, he is assisted by the jungle which actively acts like an ally to him, moving trees and that out of his way. not only is there precedent there for him leading skinks and for the beasts of the jungle to help him at the jungles behest but there is plenty of room to add mechanics in for him.

    He could hide when encamped like the Beastmen, he could have no impedance when moving outside of roads in Lustria, he could get buffs to fighting in the jungle, you could add deep jungle maps (like the wood elves have for forests) and give him buffs to fighting in them. you could have some jungle spawn on top of him when he is routed to let him escape (apparently the jungle reaches out to him if hes defeated and helps him escape). he could have the jungle encase him in foliage giving him stalk like skarsnik's ability, so much potential there.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771

    @Draculasaurus

    Warhammer describes loads of Lords and heroes in a similar manner to Nakai where they are like "some say hes just a spirit or god made manifest"

    as I said before, his lore also states that he has not pledged to a master since his last one died, implying he has the agency to do so and its made very clear that he is smarter than most Kroxigors since he doesn't need handlers and understands how to use his weapon (with other Krox don't). It is also said that hes one of the ones who travelled out to Albion to help claim and maintain it. I don't see how he would have gotten to the point of travelling with them without having the desire to do so, without helping in more ways than just killing people.

    I don't think it would be a stretch to make him intelligent to some degree. even if hes no genius and more of an emotional creature like half way between a person and an animal, that could still justify his inclusion as a Lord.

    We know that skinks worship him, some think his weapon contains the spirit of one of the Lizardmen gods, he is assisted by the jungle which actively acts like an ally to him, moving trees and that out of his way. not only is there precedent there for him leading skinks and for the beasts of the jungle to help him at the jungles behest but there is plenty of room to add mechanics in for him.

    He could hide when encamped like the Beastmen, he could have no impedance when moving outside of roads in Lustria, he could get buffs to fighting in the jungle, you could add deep jungle maps (like the wood elves have for forests) and give him buffs to fighting in them. you could have some jungle spawn on top of him when he is routed to let him escape (apparently the jungle reaches out to him if hes defeated and helps him escape). he could have the jungle encase him in foliage giving him stalk like skarsnik's ability, so much potential there.

    I think you missed the part where I said I would be fine with Nakai as a LL.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,111
    edited August 2019
    @SeanJeanquoi Heh. As far as I'm concerned you can tiptoe away because your obsession with the game just showcases where your priorities lie. You don't care about the lore, only making up stuff from little details that were never a reality there. In truth you only care about whatever pet project you made for yourself at the given time. Whenever you realize this you'll understand my position and the position of those that were invested in it before this video game ever came to be. The one thing I do everywhere I go is respect source material, but you do not.

    Call me evil as much as you want but don't think you can just go around and act like whatever you made up is by any metric accurate, in fact, your lack of response on Nakai criticism(and complete lack of sources on your side) and instead focusing on attacking me just showcases my point. The fact you consider yourself a noble protector of poor forumers who I bully by telling them that what they propose wasn't that way in the lore, again, just shows where your priorities lie, trying to argue from some moral grounds rather than discussing the subject matter.

    But if you want to discuss it by how CA has been adapting races as well then Nakai again won't happen. 8th edition armybooks have been followed as to which characters were adapted into the game. As in, characters that had models and rules in those armybooks. An arguable exception being Ghorst who took place of Konrad who in turn couldn't lead forces alone because he lacks magic(So it's rules that blocked him). The only other character would be Alberic but the last Bretonnian armybook only had Fay Enchantress, Louen and Green Knight.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Crossil I don't know how many times I can say I don't just want to make stuff up. I never said you were evil, don't be ridiculous.

    You've said that before in a prior post "pet project" how is Nakai my pet project? He's a lord I wanna see, one that garners the ire of people like you every time he's brought up so we are forced to discuss him more. I like him and what he could bring to the table, I do not obsess over him and try to come up with ideas for his campaign all the time. The archetype for his campaign came naturally to me, as do the ideas for possible mechanics. Like with anything, I'm drawing from the lore and considering the translation into WH2.

    I also want to see new factions ranging from Cathey, Kislev and the Amazon's to Chaos divided, Ogre kingdoms and stuff like that. I want to see new lords like Neferata, some new bretonnian lords and some more updates for them. I'm looking forward to the updates for the GS, Empire, Beastmen, Wood Elves and I've got ideas for what could go into them.

    I really like WH2 and I want it to be the best game it can be, I don't see how me caring about a spacific thing (in this case Nakai) invalidates anything. You're just trying to get under my skin with that comment and it ain't gonna work.

    We're here on the WH forums and your saying I'm obsessed with the game?...I'm not in any way obsessed with it. I'm a fan of the series and I understand how adaption works.

    CA have used plenty from older army books and the monsterous archanum. They have openly stated that 8th edition isn't their only source and that they pull from other areas (you are sidestepping the fact that CA takes libraries with 8th edition material as well.

    Sources for what exactly? What do I need to source that you don't already know about? I have actually used info from the games and talked about stuff straight from the lore too. I've been looking back over it as we talk.

    "Lack of response to Nakai critisizm" are you joking? Have you been on this thread recently?

    I'm not just talking about the forumers, I'm talking about the fandom of WH in general and fandoms in general. I'm not trying to act like some would be hero, I'm simply not going to play ball and I'm going to call you on your BS.

    I'm not avoiding the subject matter, we have discussed it at length. I am trying to point out that this isn't even about Nakai, it's about how you take ownership over the lore and what should and shouldn't go in.

    "That's my position and the position of those that were invested in it before this video game ever came to be. The one thing I do everywhere I go is respect source material, but you do not."

    Lol yeah, there in lies the problem mate. I'm a believer, you're a zelot. I do respect the lore, you claim it as your own and want to make sure everyone abides by every word, regardless of the reality.

    You and people like you were into the board game long before the game came out. You understand the board game but not the game. You respect the board game but the game less so. You want it transcribed word for word but GW and CA can't do that and don't want that. You are more strict and conservative with it than the writers of the source material and the owners of the IP that's ludicrous.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Draculasaurus

    I know you said that, I wasn't trying to berate you or anything.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,111
    edited August 2019
    Then cite your sources for what you propose. If you're so hellbent then actually show me where is it written what you propose. This is something you're fundamentally incapable of doing as far as I can tell.

    I looked at everything I could find and the only place I've seen stating Nakai chose anything is on the wikia and in your statements. You couldn't possibly be only using wikia as your source, right?

    Give me books where you read these things. Give me pages that tell me what he is. We have went through all this and every account of Nakai paints a familiar picture of a monster driven by instinct and divine providence that never stands in command of anyone and can only be directed in a retconned-out-of-existence storyline by the most powerful living Slann who would be easily capable of commanding a dinosaur to guard a city, not even command it.

    Tell me where it's written that he chose to not affiliate with anyone, as in that it was more than his instinct that drove him somewhere. Give me the book, give me the page. I offer mine if you want.

    The only one who makes this more than about Nakai is you. I honestly don't care for your moral grandstanding.

    The problem I have with your "drawing from the lore" is perfectly exhibited with Nakai. He is a Green Knight of the Lizardmen and his appropriate role is that of a Legendary Hero. Then you say nah, they should do him like this for some obscure reasoning and then list some small details as justifying very overblown mechanics. Then you argue that CA can do whatever and it doesn't matter that I have lore objections while you still claim it's loreful.

    No, what you want to say is that your claims are "lore inspired" not "loreful". Nakai was built to be a "Green Knight" character, with that specific modus operandi and he was never supposed to be more. You willingly ignore his central characteristic, ignore that such characters aren't put in command of factions for a reason and willingly say he is not just another Kroxigor that can't speak based on some selective reading of the lore. Sure, CA and GW can go and do whatever they want but that doesn't change that what they do would be in line with older lore. Nor does it change that what you propose is ALSO against it, in fact if you need to defend your position by saying they can do anything despite the lore then think about just what you're arguing for. Not the lore.

    How about another example? River of Echoes, an underground river connecting Tilea and Wissenland that's controlled by MIRAGLIANO is in your book justification for giving WISSENLAND underway-like stance.

    Think about what you're saying. A single feature held by one faction can be used to justify giving another faction one of the most overused mechanics in the game that they can use everywhere.

    Tell me that makes any sense and isn't just a pet project with a very specific goal in mind.

    Edit: Oh, yeah, I also never played TT or read the lore before this trilogy, just so we're clear. I'm doing this to respect source material and prevent people from having false hopes.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,232
    I like them both, so win win at least for me.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Crossil

    sorry, I was busy all yesterday.

    again, its not that I'm hellbent, its that talks of Nakai bother people like you and so we are forced to talk about it way more. As I said: I have other things I would love to see included. I've even been working on other ideas recently, none of them Nakai related. if anything: hes sort of old hat to me because I've wanted him a long time and haven't been working on or contemplating anything relating to him in months. (almost a year now I think).

    sure, I can cite some things if you want: "he was left masterless after the city's destruction during the Great Catastrophe. Since then, Nakai has not pledged himself to a single city, instead wandering where the Great Plan deems his presence necessary"

    Information on him can be found in the 7th and 8th edition army books, the Lustria campaign book and his rules which were released by GW but never made tournament official, because they didn't make a model for him (this isn't as damning as it might sound, since many things, even the Hellpit Abomination, didn't have models until 8th edition or still lack models).

    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Nakai

    http://sgabetto.free.fr/Telechargements/nakai.pdf

    as I stated prior: the quote I gave you heavily implies agency, even though it doesn't say "Nakai got dat big brain" it does say that he can pledge himself to a city and master. as I said before he also knows how to wield his weapon and doesn't require handlers.

    there is great mystique around his lore, intentionally so. the Skinks believe he is a manifestation of the jungle itself, some believe that the LM warrior god Quetzl inhabits his weapon and that the god speaks to Nakai through it; guiding him, or possibly that the god controls Nakai and uses him as his tool.

    but the idea that Nakai is a Tool of Quetzl is only "claimed" to be the case. in the same paragraph, it says that the blade has "attained an almost awareness". in context: this idea of awareness and blocking some blows for him is supposed to be a part of the magic imbued within it and is suggested to have come about because of the bond Nakai has with his weapon, it "having felt Nakai's hand for all its existence".

    as I stated before: mystifying claims like these are pervasive through out the Warhammer lore. then there is also the fact that the LM have been getting dumber every spawning, that the first spawning yielded the smartest of them and that Nakai is a first spawning albino. Gor'rok is also a first spawning albino and his lore makes note of his intelligence. Nakai might not be as smart but he was created under similar circumstances.

    How intelligent he really is and how much autonomy he has is somewhat uncertain, but it is made obvious that he is smarter and more autonomous than a dim witted beast, and there is enough here to suggest that he is, at least half way between a beast and a person, if not more so.

    Its entirely possible that he is just the spirit of the jungle or the tool of Quetzl or that he is half beast. if any of these turn out to be the case: do you not want a LM god proxy ruling a faction? do you not want the spirit of Lustria herself leading a faction? some have compared him to Throgg and I think you could justify that too, on the half beast side of things.

    CA could absolutely work with any of those angles, as they could all work in their own right.

    The Green Knight becomes a lord in the End Times, which is presumed to be the setting for game 3. even within the lore and the board game, these things are subject to change.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Crossil

    I only brought him up here because I was pointing out how Gor'rok would be Outclassed as a potential pick due to Nakai, Kroq Gar and Gor'Roks similarity to the generic LM lord and hero.

    I'm not moral grand standing, I was explaining why it is we are having this issue. I was pointing out that you're ideology and zealotry is the issue here and its a problem many gamers display in many different fandoms.

    "what you want to say is that your claims are "lore inspired" not "loreful" "

    a few comments ago i said this:

    "There is a distinction to be made here between:

    -The lore/fluff and the world (which i know and respect)

    -The rules of the old defunct board game (my knowledge varies and it acts more as guidelines for translation into WH2)

    -and the games (which i know and respect) "

    the reason I pointed this distinction out is because: the lore is not the video game. the video game is not the board game, and (most importantly) the board game is not the lore!

    this is the crux of the issue in a way. many people such as yourself want WH2 to adhere to both the board game and the lore at the same time, acting like they are the same thing when in reality: they aren't.

    the board game, just like the video game: is lore inspired...not loreful...the only way for either to be loreful is if they were books GW approved and published like the actual fluff.

    now, I know that the board game may have come first in this instance, as apposed to how things like this usually happen. however, the point stands that the board game is a morphing and adaption of this world of Warhammer that they created through blurbs and novels and so forth. the board game isn't a perfect representation of the lore either really and WH2 is the same.

    WH2 is another game that is attempting to adapt and morph the world of Warhammer into a different medium just like the board game did. This means changing certain things or rearanging them slightly (like putting teclis in lustria for example for the sake of gameplay)

    WH2's vortex campaign is entirely new, some of the factions and units are brand new, faction locations and justification for them being there are new and so on. this is a WH game but its being adapted into a TW game with a new kind of premise. these LL characters dont function in the lore as they do in WH2 nor do they function in the board game exactly as they do in the lore.

    WH2 as a game is Lore inspired and not Lorefull. same with the board game.

    even within the lore and Board game, what is and isn't lore changes with every edition, into new periods like the end times and so on. there is alot in the older editions that was retconned or reworked because the writers wanted to take it in a different direction or because it was kind of offensive in some cases. then you have the end times and the storm of chaos.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,413
    edited August 2019
    @Crossil

    in Regards to the River of Echoes: Alith Anar is a great example of an equivolent to this that already exists in the game. Alith cant use underways but he has his shadow realm which could have been implemented in a way unique to him but for the sake of simplicity: CA gave him the underway mechanic (for the record I would love a rework of Alith Anar's mechanics and campaign).

    I was doing the same with WIssenland: they are noted for travelling through and living in mountainous regions in the lore. most of the province is focused on mining and they are also said to make use of tunnels like the River of Echoes, to travel through Mountainous regions when they become impassible.

    Similar to Alith: there are a number of ways they could utilise this idea, I would prefer it be different. but realistically they could also turn it into an underway mechanic for them if needs be. there is plenty there to justify it.

    "Oh, yeah, I also never played TT or read the lore before this trilogy, just so we're clear. I'm doing this to respect source material and prevent people from having false hopes."

    I'm afraid your prior comments betray you. (including your comments within this post that I'm quoting). You don't seem concerned with other people getting there hopes up at all. you seem to want to flaunt your knowledge of the lore and use it as a weapon to crush the ideas and hopes of others that don't sit well with you.

    you seem almost completely averse to any creativity when it comes to discussing possible future inclusions. to me? simply listing off things CA could include without explaining how or why is a very anaemic way of making a case for something. that kind of input can be useful but really its not great at communicating to CA or other people what could be done and how it could be interesting.

    "Tell me that makes any sense and isn't just a pet project with a very specific goal in mind." this is exactly what I mean and I don't really understand it. you dismiss suggestions as "pet projects" regardless of how rooted in the lore they are or how well thought out they are. its like you don't want people making any well thought out suggestions of any kind. I'm curious: what would you do? what would meet your criteria? and what suggestions have you brought to the table that would be considered proper?
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 13,111
    edited August 2019

    @Crossil

    sorry, I was busy all yesterday.

    again, its not that I'm hellbent, its that talks of Nakai bother people like you and so we are forced to talk about it way more. As I said: I have other things I would love to see included. I've even been working on other ideas recently, none of them Nakai related. if anything: hes sort of old hat to me because I've wanted him a long time and haven't been working on or contemplating anything relating to him in months. (almost a year now I think).

    sure, I can cite some things if you want: "he was left masterless after the city's destruction during the Great Catastrophe. Since then, Nakai has not pledged himself to a single city, instead wandering where the Great Plan deems his presence necessary"

    Information on him can be found in the 7th and 8th edition army books, the Lustria campaign book and his rules which were released by GW but never made tournament official, because they didn't make a model for him (this isn't as damning as it might sound, since many things, even the Hellpit Abomination, didn't have models until 8th edition or still lack models).

    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Nakai

    http://sgabetto.free.fr/Telechargements/nakai.pdf

    as I stated prior: the quote I gave you heavily implies agency, even though it doesn't say "Nakai got dat big brain" it does say that he can pledge himself to a city and master. as I said before he also knows how to wield his weapon and doesn't require handlers.

    there is great mystique around his lore, intentionally so. the Skinks believe he is a manifestation of the jungle itself, some believe that the LM warrior god Quetzl inhabits his weapon and that the god speaks to Nakai through it; guiding him, or possibly that the god controls Nakai and uses him as his tool.

    but the idea that Nakai is a Tool of Quetzl is only "claimed" to be the case. in the same paragraph, it says that the blade has "attained an almost awareness". in context: this idea of awareness and blocking some blows for him is supposed to be a part of the magic imbued within it and is suggested to have coma about because of the bond Nakai has with his weapon, it "having felt Nakai's hand for all its existence".

    as I stated before: mystifying claims like these are pervasive through out the Warhammer lore. then there is also the fact that the LM have been getting dumber every spawning, that the first spawning yielded the smartest of them and that Nakai is a first spawning albino. Gor'rok is also a first spawning albino and his lore makes note of his intelligence. Nakai might not be as smart but he was created under similar circumstances.

    How intelligent he really is and how much autonomy he has is somewhat uncertain, but it is made obvious that he is smarter and more autonomous than a dim witted beast, and there is enough here to suggest that he is, at least half way between a beast and a person, if not more so.

    Its entirely possible that he is just the spirit of the jungle or the tool of Quetzl or that he is half beast. if any of these turn out to be the case: do you not want a LM god proxy ruling a faction? do you not want the spirit of Lustria herself leading a faction? some have compared him to Throgg and I think you could justify that too, on the half beast side of things.

    CA could absolutely work with any of those angles, as they could all work in their own right.

    The Green Knight becomes a lord in the End Times, which is presumed to be the setting for game 3. even within the lore and the board game, these things are subject to change.

    Let's start here. So, like I feared, you're quotting the wiki. I checked its sources and non of the sources states he "has not pledged himself to a single city". That is probably a misquote from the books followed by you further misunderstanding it and extrapolating from the incorrect quote.

    Therefore I reject your claim. In fact my source that I quoted before(8th ed. armybook, section about Kroxigors) states he is a creature. Lustria campaign book(which sources at the bottom claim as the source of the quote) only cites him as fighting against Clan Pestilens. No source to back up your claim.

    The Green Knight became a lord in lore that isn't canon in TWW, that is in further characterization. Green Kinght in his implemented characterization is still an LH and so is Nakai.

    Furthermore, Green Knight could technically be argued as capable of leading armies but it still wouldn't be in line with his characterization, which is also why people have grumbled about Grombrindal being an LL, technically possible but not fitting. This, however was agreed to be because CA didn't plan to make LH while developing Grombrindal yet. Nakai however fits only one role. There were also arguments I and others put forward about Kroak being made an LH or Queen Bess like unit despite him being a fully capable lord and LL if his rules were followed. Guess what happened in the end, lore argument prevailed.

    @Crossil

    I only brought him up here because I was pointing out how Gor'rok would be Outclassed as a potential pick due to Nakai, Kroq Gar and Gor'Roks similarity to the generic LM lord and hero.

    I'm not moral grand standing, I was explaining why it is we are having this issue. I was pointing out that you're ideology and zealotry is the issue here and its a problem many gamers display in many different fandoms.

    "what you want to say is that your claims are "lore inspired" not "loreful" "

    a few comments ago i said this:

    "There is a distinction to be made here between:

    -The lore/fluff and the world (which i know and respect)

    -The rules of the old defunct board game (my knowledge varies and it acts more as guidelines for translation into WH2)

    -and the games (which i know and respect) "

    the reason I pointed this distinction out is because: the lore is not the video game. the video game is not the board game, and (most importantly) the board game is not the lore!

    this is the crux of the issue in a way. many people such as yourself want WH2 to adhere to both the board game and the lore at the same time, acting like they are the same thing when in reality: they aren't.

    the board game, just like the video game: is lore inspired...not loreful...the only way for either to be loreful is if they were books GW approved and published like the actual fluff.

    now, I know that the board game may have come first in this instance, as apposed to how things like this usually happen. however, the point stands that the board game is a morphing and adaption of this world of Warhammer that they created through blurbs and novels and so forth. the board game isn't a perfect representation of the lore either really and WH2 is the same.

    WH2 is another game that is attempting to adapt and morph the world of Warhammer into a different medium just like the board game did. This means changing certain things or rearanging them slightly (like putting teclis in lustria for example for the sake of gameplay)

    WH2's vortex campaign is entirely new, some of the factions and units are brand new, faction locations and justification for them being there are new and so on. this is a WH game but its being adapted into a TW game with a new kind of premise. these LL characters dont function in the lore as they do in WH2 nor do they function in the board game exactly as they do in the lore.

    WH2 as a game is Lore inspired and not Lorefull. same with the board game.

    even within the lore and Board game, what is and isn't lore changes with every edition, into new periods like the end times and so on. there is alot in the older editions that was retconned or reworked because the writers wanted to take it in a different direction or because it was kind of offensive in some cases. then you have the end times and the storm of chaos.

    The difference being that the games only make differences when lore can't be translated 1:1. I explained this as well. CA has characters they can implement and sometimes have to change some aspects. You are pushing a character where he doesn't belong and changing the few aspects of him that are generally agreed on. The only such case that it happened is with Sartosa and there were problems with that that I wasn't the only one who objected to them.

    The same with TT. Not everything from the lore could be translated there and not everything can be translated into this game. But there are boundaries to just how much off the rails you can go and you don't seem to see any.

    The entire premise of Nakai being better than Gor Rok is built on drastically changing what little lore there is about Nakai and not even bothering to develop Gor Rok. Thank god people understand that Nakai was never built to be an LL unlike some hard headed individuals.

    @Crossil

    in Regards to the River of Echoes: Alith Anar is a great example of an equivolent to this that already exists in the game. Alith cant use underways but he has his shadow realm which could have been implemented in a way unique to him but for the sake of simplicity: CA gave him the underway mechanic (for the record I would love a rework of Alith Anar's mechanics and campaign).

    I was doing the same with WIssenland: they are noted for travelling through and living in mountainous regions in the lore. most of the province is focused on mining and they are also said to make use of tunnels like the River of Echoes, to travel through Mountainous regions when they become impassible.

    Similar to Alith: there are a number of ways they could utilise this idea, I would prefer it be different. but realistically they could also turn it into an underway mechanic for them if needs be. there is plenty there to justify it.

    "Oh, yeah, I also never played TT or read the lore before this trilogy, just so we're clear. I'm doing this to respect source material and prevent people from having false hopes."

    I'm afraid your prior comments betray you. (including your comments within this post that I'm quoting). You don't seem concerned with other people getting there hopes up at all. you seem to want to flaunt your knowledge of the lore and use it as a weapon to crush the ideas and hopes of others that don't sit well with you.

    you seem almost completely averse to any creativity when it comes to discussing possible future inclusions. to me? simply listing off things CA could include without explaining how or why is a very anaemic way of making a case for something. that kind of input can be useful but really its not great at communicating to CA or other people what could be done and how it could be interesting.

    "Tell me that makes any sense and isn't just a pet project with a very specific goal in mind." this is exactly what I mean and I don't really understand it. you dismiss suggestions as "pet projects" regardless of how rooted in the lore they are or how well thought out they are. its like you don't want people making any well thought out suggestions of any kind. I'm curious: what would you do? what would meet your criteria? and what suggestions have you brought to the table that would be considered proper?

    Alith Anar has waged a shadow war against the Druchii for thousands of years. He has eluded them despite operating almost exlusively in Naggaroth. I don't know how much lore you think they based it on but it's similar to the Beastmen Pathways in reasoning. Both of which, in my opinion, would be better to distinquish mechanics wise from the rest of the underway stances(and one more distinction for the Worldroots) but that's another discussion. The Shadow King is known as such for a reason.

    Wissenland doesn't own or utilize any kind of underway like pathways in the mountains. The bit about them living in rocky terrain is far flung from underground dwellers like Dwarves, Skaven and Greenskins, undergrouns highways like the Wood Elves and hidden passageways and shadow guerrila-like warfare of Beastmen and Alith Anar. And it also utilizes a river that they don't control as further justification.

    Yes, I have problem with your reasoning because it innovates with bits that are irrelevant in the grand scheme of what these characters and factions are. Wissenland is not known for some kind of underground colonialism or otherwise. The little mining that humans do is nowhere near what underway stance represents in the game.

    I don't think this is well thought out. I think it's thought up with a specific purpose. That is to make a faction overbuilt despite those aspects either being irrelevant or outright overblown in your narratives.

    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT

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