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Dragon Breath Bug?

ShetlandApacheShetlandApache Posts: 404Registered Users
Hey guys,

I remember a note a few patches ago that said dragon breath had been recalibrated and would no longer snipe single units from directly above. This patch it can do just that again. When fired from directly above breaths will directly hit any single entity unit from above. If this is a bug, I hope it gets fixed. If this is intentional, i would argue that it should be changed as it encourages abusive gameplay. Thanks for listening!

Comments

  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    Damage was too much? It shouldn't do 0 damage.
  • AristodemosIIAristodemosII Posts: 111Registered Users
    But when your tanky foot lord dies to 2 dragon breaths there's clearly something wrong.

    I would generally argue that dragon breaths are a tad too overtuned. From maximum range into the flank, they delete 50% up to 90% of an infantry unit depending on its armour. Considering that dragons have 3 charges of this, that's too much.
    Common sense applies.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,482Registered Users

    Hey guys,

    I remember a note a few patches ago that said dragon breath had been recalibrated and would no longer snipe single units from directly above. This patch it can do just that again. When fired from directly above breaths will directly hit any single entity unit from above. If this is a bug, I hope it gets fixed. If this is intentional, i would argue that it should be changed as it encourages abusive gameplay. Thanks for listening!

    you can dodge the breath.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,419Registered Users
    Its simply working like missile.

    5-10m range its obviously like 100% in-the-face-hits

    Long range, they spread. Has always been that way, prolly will be thereafter in the very long future.

    Anyway dragons have always been insanely and absurdly overtuned. Pretty much makes giant looks like $800 unit lol. Untouchable units from certain factions.
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,482Registered Users
    edited August 2019
    yst said:


    Anyway dragons have always been insanely and absurdly overtuned. Pretty much makes giant looks like $800 unit lol. Untouchable units from certain factions.

    like which factions exactly? Currently Dragons are strong vs:

    - Beastmen
    - VC
    - Chaos

    OK vs:
    - Greenskins
    - Dark Elves
    - Empire
    - Tomb Kings
    - Bretonnia
    - Lizardmen

    (these factions have either a strong missile presence to make flying in the air difficult, or slow/snare effects or both).

    Bad vs:
    - Coast
    - Dwarfs
    - Skaven
    - Wood Elves

    Looks to me like a balanced unit.

    Compare them for example to OPzzeils:

    Strong vs:

    - Chaos
    - Greenskins
    - Dark Elves (autowin)
    - High Elves
    - Tomb Kings (autowin)
    - Bretonnia
    - Lizardmen
    - Dwarfs (autowin)

    I don't see Dragons as OP at all sorry and the reason is that they are relatively slow in the air, have a very big hitbox and 80 armor at most (which isn't a high value when you watch some stuff out there such as Arachnarok 150 armor, Stegadon 120 armor, Leviathan 150 armor). HP for Dragons is also on the low side with only Star Dragon having a slightly below average value 6300 HP compared to Necrosphinx with its 6800 HP, or Rotting Leviathan with 7400, Ancient Stegadon 7400, Arachnarok 6800 HP.

    This is not to mention weaker Dragons such as Forest or Black Dragon, in that case the HP pool is even lower and fairly low for a monster.
    Post edited by Green0 on
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 122Registered Users
    Sounds like that person was using dragon breaths wrong.

    Step 1, bring 2 dragons.

    Step 2, hide in the corner.

    Step 3, make sure you get all 6 breaths in.

    Step 4, Don't let your pitiful token force get routed until the timer says 5:00 to go.

    every one knows that....
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 122Registered Users
    edited August 2019
    @Green0 Squiggs > Jezzails and trolls.
    Stop changing the subject, and using da ladz....
    Oh, or their is always the OP spider riders...
    Post edited by Slade_X on
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,482Registered Users
    edited August 2019
    Slade_X said:

    Sounds like that person was using dragon breaths wrong.

    Step 1, bring 2 dragons.

    Step 2, hide in the corner.

    Step 3, make sure you get all 6 breaths in.

    Step 4, Don't let your pitiful token force get routed until the timer says 5:00 to go.

    every one knows that....

    aside from this being a tactic that only scummy players use, Dragon breaths on moving targets are very, very bad.

    @Slade_X I don't think Arachnaroks are OP, only the RoR version is, I am just saying that ground monsters or other monster types have been generously compensated for the lack of breath attacks by either increased stats (generally more HP and armor) or other perks (regeneration, free heal or BvL).
  • Slade_XSlade_X Posts: 122Registered Users
    bore off green
  • ystyst Posts: 6,419Registered Users
    edited August 2019
    Green0 said:


    I don't see Dragons as OP at all sorry and the reason is that they are relatively slow in the air, have a very big hitbox and 80 armor at most (which isn't a high value when you watch some stuff out there such as Arachnarok 150 armor, Stegadon 120 armor, Leviathan 150 armor). HP for Dragons is also on the low side with only Star Dragon having a slightly below average value 6300 HP compared to Necrosphinx with its 6800 HP, or Rotting Leviathan with 7400, Ancient Stegadon 7400, Arachnarok 6800 HP.

    This is not to mention weaker Dragons such as Forest or Black Dragon, in that case the HP pool is even lower and fairly low for a monster.

    Not sure what u mean by weak, forest and black have by far some of the strongest breath vs inf in game. Forest have 45% resist or so with poison and magic. Forest dragon can tank ap shots, cannons, guns etc, MORE than a khemrian warsphix who have a frikking 60% (+2733 more hp lol..) go figure.

    Anyway not too fuss about it, if CA deem 3x3 unit wiping free breath ok, so be it. Shame tho only benefits those 3 factions the most. Shame frost wyrm r an absolute trash on melee faction that doesnt complements it, chaos dragon is a complete no show. Its up to vamps to utilise it to the max.

    Also dragon hitbox arent even big at all. A volley of gunners do 400-500 dmg dragon, which does EXACTLY the same to a terradon. Now, the dif is dragon have 25% resist while terradon sits on 15%. Also while ones on 30 armor the other at 60-70, u can do all the math yada yada on the trivial 5 regular dmg. Overall the dif is barely significant at all. They practically at most just have a hitbox bout 25% larger than terradon. Which is quite shocking considering they r at least 250%+ the size of them.



    $1800 20% resist + poison forest drag VS
    $2000 khemrian sphix Lord

    Breaths have pretty much always been free. Afterall when it first came out dragon have 0 breath and it was added for; guess the difference.
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,482Registered Users
    edited August 2019
    yst said:

    Green0 said:


    I don't see Dragons as OP at all sorry and the reason is that they are relatively slow in the air, have a very big hitbox and 80 armor at most (which isn't a high value when you watch some stuff out there such as Arachnarok 150 armor, Stegadon 120 armor, Leviathan 150 armor). HP for Dragons is also on the low side with only Star Dragon having a slightly below average value 6300 HP compared to Necrosphinx with its 6800 HP, or Rotting Leviathan with 7400, Ancient Stegadon 7400, Arachnarok 6800 HP.

    This is not to mention weaker Dragons such as Forest or Black Dragon, in that case the HP pool is even lower and fairly low for a monster.

    Not sure what u mean by weak, forest and black have by far some of the strongest breath vs inf in game. Forest have 45% resist or so with poison and magic. Forest dragon can tank ap shots, cannons, guns etc, MORE than a khemrian warsphix who have a frikking 60% (+2733 more hp lol..) go figure.

    Anyway not too fuss about it, if CA deem 3x3 unit wiping free breath ok, so be it. Shame tho only benefits those 3 factions the most. Shame frost wyrm r an absolute trash on melee faction that doesnt complements it, chaos dragon is a complete no show. Its up to vamps to utilise it to the max.

    Also dragon hitbox arent even big at all. A volley of gunners do 400-500 dmg dragon, which does EXACTLY the same to a terradon. Now, the dif is dragon have 25% resist while terradon sits on 15%. Also while ones on 30 armor the other at 60-70, u can do all the math yada yada on the trivial 5 regular dmg. Overall the dif is barely significant at all. They practically at most just have a hitbox bout 25% larger than terradon. Which is quite shocking considering they r at least 250%+ the size of them.



    $1800 20% resist + poison forest drag VS
    $2000 khemrian sphix Lord

    Breaths have pretty much always been free. Afterall when it first came out dragon have 0 breath and it was added for; guess the difference.
    I do agree with some points in your post, such as Frost Wyrm needing more LD - that said, Frost Wyrm is not a bad unit at all, it's a Sun Dragon with slow aura and Frostbite. Slightly weaker stats, but also more armor and magical attacks. Like I said, it could use at minimum +8LD, maybe +10.

    About breaths, well I guess I can agree they are "free", but when it comes to monsters like this, their performance on the ground can be hit or miss. Monsters like Kholek, with their higher armor, better animation and generally better turning speed and mass are generally more reliable on the ground. Iirc, a Star Dragon has only 2600 mass, a Kholek has 5000. Pretty impressive, huh. When it comes to Dragons, it's very hard to do a 1v1 test and conclude something about them, just like it would be when judging Kholek. The best way to judge whether Dragons are balanced or not is by watching a large number of games and seeing how many are won or lost. I see Dragons lose a fair amount so I doubt they are very OP if OP at all. The only exception is the Star Dragon, which acts a bit like a Kholek in 1v1 duels, the issue though is that HE kinda need it in this state at the moment to prevent abuse from stuff like RoR Arachnarok, Kholek and so on which would otherwise beat about everything in HE roster.

    Anyway, this is digressing. I think breaths require a bit of setup, you need to pin good units in melee, opponent needs to bring expensive infantry, and you also have downtime where the enemy Kaiju is killing uncontested while your Dragon is in the air. I do agree that if you get 3 perfect breaths, it's very strong, however based on review of numerous games my experience tells me that this is generally very hard to achieve.
  • AristodemosIIAristodemosII Posts: 111Registered Users
    I have to agree with YST here that breaths are probably working as they should. From long range => low accuracy => delete infantry units; from short range => high accuracy => delete single entities. You can usually get the gold value out of your dragon, or even more, only through breaths. Dodging them can be very hard too when combat is already going for you got only about 1 second to react.
    Common sense applies.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 8,088Registered Users
    I think breaths are in good spot now, you clearly pay for them in the cost of the monster. They got counter play also and can be punished.

    If you letting a dragon breath on flank of your units without moving or punishing the dragon well than yes they are strong.

    I mean a BT can take out 4 hellcannons if you let it shoot them.

  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 8,088Registered Users

    I have to agree with YST here that breaths are probably working as they should. From long range => low accuracy => delete infantry units; from short range => high accuracy => delete single entities. You can usually get the gold value out of your dragon, or even more, only through breaths. Dodging them can be very hard too when combat is already going for you got only about 1 second to react.

    You got way more than 1s to react, if you dont notice the dragon going towards your units than thats a visial issue, even once you click it there are about 3s to move. Unlike wind spells breaths go forward from the dragon.

    It not hard to punish a dragon going for a breath.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,411Registered Users
    yst said:



    Not sure what u mean by weak, forest and black have by far some of the strongest breath vs inf in game. Forest have 45% resist or so with poison and magic. Forest dragon can tank ap shots, cannons, guns etc, MORE than a khemrian warsphix who have a frikking 60% (+2733 more hp lol..) go figure.

    1. forest dragon takes way more damage from basic archers than warsphinx. 2 volleys from 4 HE archers with net takes forest dragon to nearly half hp; on a warpshinx each volley is about 800 damage (so 1600 ish from 2 volleys). Also forest dragon has nearly half the armour of warsphinx 50 vs 95, so your first claim is wrong.
    yst said:



    Also dragon hitbox arent even big at all. A volley of gunners do 400-500 dmg dragon, which does EXACTLY the same to a terradon. Now, the dif is dragon have 25% resist while terradon sits on 15%. Also while ones on 30 armor the other at 60-70, u can do all the math yada yada on the trivial 5 regular dmg. Overall the dif is barely significant at all. They practically at most just have a hitbox bout 25% larger than terradon. Which is quite shocking considering they r at least 250%+ the size of them.




    $1800 20% resist + poison forest drag VS
    $2000 khemrian sphix Lord

    Breaths have pretty much always been free. Afterall when it first came out dragon have 0 breath and it was added for; guess the difference.


    2. that "test" must have been super super unlucky rng for sphinx. i just did this 5 times, warsphinx won all 5 win average of around 3000 hp left.
    View post on imgur.com
    But yes u right that breaths are fine. VC, coast, norsca, chaos, WE, DE, HE dragons/terrorgheists don't need any changes to breaths.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,411Registered Users

    Hey guys,

    I remember a note a few patches ago that said dragon breath had been recalibrated and would no longer snipe single units from directly above. This patch it can do just that again. When fired from directly above breaths will directly hit any single entity unit from above. If this is a bug, I hope it gets fixed. If this is intentional, i would argue that it should be changed as it encourages abusive gameplay. Thanks for listening!

    try shooting dragons with archers or guns if they try to sit on top of your lord to breathe. They will get perma-staggered and won't get the breath off.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 8,088Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    yst said:



    Not sure what u mean by weak, forest and black have by far some of the strongest breath vs inf in game. Forest have 45% resist or so with poison and magic. Forest dragon can tank ap shots, cannons, guns etc, MORE than a khemrian warsphix who have a frikking 60% (+2733 more hp lol..) go figure.

    1. forest dragon takes way more damage from basic archers than warsphinx. 2 volleys from 4 HE archers with net takes forest dragon to nearly half hp; on a warpshinx each volley is about 800 damage (so 1600 ish from 2 volleys). Also forest dragon has nearly half the armour of warsphinx 50 vs 95, so your first claim is wrong.
    yst said:



    Also dragon hitbox arent even big at all. A volley of gunners do 400-500 dmg dragon, which does EXACTLY the same to a terradon. Now, the dif is dragon have 25% resist while terradon sits on 15%. Also while ones on 30 armor the other at 60-70, u can do all the math yada yada on the trivial 5 regular dmg. Overall the dif is barely significant at all. They practically at most just have a hitbox bout 25% larger than terradon. Which is quite shocking considering they r at least 250%+ the size of them.




    $1800 20% resist + poison forest drag VS
    $2000 khemrian sphix Lord

    Breaths have pretty much always been free. Afterall when it first came out dragon have 0 breath and it was added for; guess the difference.


    2. that "test" must have been super super unlucky rng for sphinx. i just did this 5 times, warsphinx won all 5 win average of around 3000 hp left.
    View post on imgur.com
    But yes u right that breaths are fine. VC, coast, norsca, chaos, WE, DE, HE dragons/terrorgheists don't need any changes to breaths.

    It wasnt lucky rng it was another one of yst fixed tests where he likely doesnt attack with 1 unit or something, his known for it.

    I dont think dragons are any issue currently and neither are gooses or hydras, the only OP unit from those is the star deagon and it has absolutly nothing to do with its breath but rather its stats.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,482Registered Users


    I dont think dragons are any issue currently and neither are gooses or hydras, the only OP unit from those is the star deagon and it has absolutly nothing to do with its breath but rather its stats.

    you know this since we discussed it extensively, worth posting on forums so that more people acknowledge in what context this is said.

    Star Dragon is OP but so are 10-15 other monsters in the game (especially RoR ones).
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 8,088Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    I dont think dragons are any issue currently and neither are gooses or hydras, the only OP unit from those is the star deagon and it has absolutly nothing to do with its breath but rather its stats.

    you know this since we discussed it extensively, worth posting on forums so that more people acknowledge in what context this is said.

    Star Dragon is OP but so are 10-15 other monsters in the game (especially RoR ones).
    Yep i agree i dunno anout 15 but maybe 7 others or do totally.

    Star dragon
    Queen spider
    Soulcrusher
    Necrohumancatwithwings

    To name a few
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Posts: 1,114Registered Users
    Green0 said:


    I dont think dragons are any issue currently and neither are gooses or hydras, the only OP unit from those is the star deagon and it has absolutly nothing to do with its breath but rather its stats.

    you know this since we discussed it extensively, worth posting on forums so that more people acknowledge in what context this is said.

    Star Dragon is OP but so are 10-15 other monsters in the game (especially RoR ones).
    Star Dragon is not OP. Huge size -> very comfortable target for shooting and it can be very effectively surrounded by antilarge units ( especially cav&monstrous inf. ) 2400$ for monster in roster with minimal investment size of 500 &. In "clean" situation he performs just as he should. It is some tools that can be hard to counter on such units.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,891Registered Users
    One additional factor is that SD has huge stats without being a ror, so it can benefit from the cheveron bug on top of a very high stat baseline. It might not be perceived as strong if that bug is fixed.

    Otherwise redesigning it as a 2200 dragon wouldn't be a bad option imo.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,419Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    so your first claim is wrong.

    Referring to AP shots.

    Even with regular shots khemrain only blocks 70% ish with armor. Forest drag blocks 38%+20%+25%. Given air maneuverability, absolutely winner.

    68 speed vs 90 speed in dodging is pretty clear cut. U be lucky to even land 15% of arrows fired on a drag. Add in terrain, turn speed, its obvious which one r better
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,891Registered Users
    But if both dodge perfectly nothing hits and they are identical! :wink:
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