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TWH3 needs more Campaign layers. Diplomacy, Civilians/Refugees, Seasons and more...

CosmicMoanCosmicMoan Registered Users Posts: 37
As of now, the campaign features in TWW are very bare-bones as most people would agree.

1 -Diplomacy is quite frankly redundant in the mid-/late-game because you're better off just conquering anyone whom you can't confederate. Your allies would drag you into wars that you do not wanna be a part of and you don't really have clear information on why faction x likes/dislikes faction y.
Trade agreements are a nice way to have money early on but apart from the extra gold, they don't feel like they offer much more than that to most factions. Now with HEs and TKs it feels a lot more impactful because you have certain improvements gated behind a resource, which incentives the player to start trade agreements for reasons other than just getting money.

Currently, factions that are described and well known as being schemers and relying more on subtly/manipulation, don't feel like that at all. I can think of 4 factions where the intrigue of the court system could fit to them. Vampire Counts, Skaven, The Empire and Chaos. The proxy wars system in 3k would suit these factions perfectly imo. At least for the Legendary Lords where it makes sense. Cao Cao in Three Kingdoms is what Mannfred/Karl Franz should be in TWH. Diplomacy should be a fun feature to spend time on, not something to glance over. I rarely get into a defensive or military alliance with someone unless I'm 100% that getting dragged into their wars won't mess up my campaign.

I've had many scenarios where I would've loved to offer myself as a vassal to a powerful faction, at least temporarily so I have a fighting chance against a powerful enemy, then grow to becoming strong enough to break free from my master's bonds. Vassalage is a fun mechanic that I rarely get to see in TWH, as long as it's not something crazy like a strength rank 8 Middenlang becoming the vassal of a strength rank 23 Grimgor. Trading regions is just a must have at this point. I'd be shocked if that and capital moving don't make a return in WH3.

Also, allow us to block trade routes again via raids. This can have heavy penalties on diplomacy but adds more strategic options for the campaign.

So to sum it up, would be great if gifting ancillaries, capital moving, region trading, offering vassalage, proxy wars and giving treasury per turn would make a return for WH3. The clarity offered in the diplomacy screen of 3k is also something I think would greatly benefit WH3. Explain what certain AI personalities are prone to do, show what the consequences of my decisions are gonna be, show me more info on why x faction hates/likes y.

2 - The spy system is something I think could be a lot of fun for factions for which it makes sense to have. Humans could use this among each other, that also includes Chaos Factions that can infiltrate human society. Vampires can infiltrate human society and other vampire societies. Dark Elves and High Elves can enter any elven society. These races could really benefit from this system and it would be super thematic for them. It can add an extra and subtle form of spreading your corruption as a vampire/chaos worshipper. These spies can take the form of a faction's regular general model, but once discovered you see them as their true self. The wind of shadows is known to be used for such occasions in order to create illusions.

If moddable people could give this feature to other factions whom they think it could be fitting.

I also think that agents who are known well known for being the perfect spies should be invisible on the campaign map unless an opponent starts a spy network or patrols a region. Kinda like hot spies worked in Shogun II. Eshen Assassins, Witch Hunters, Lahmian Vampires and Khainite Assassins should be invisible on the campaign map. Again, this is all to promote the player to choose a stealthy/scheming approach and to also be wary and paranoid of enemy agents.

3 - Seasons. I really don't see a reason for seasons not to make it into the game other than it being time consuming to implement it into such a large map like ME. It adds something for the player to adapt to depending the time of the year and it can create a lot of fun and compelling situations. WEs would have a unique campaign experience among other factions due to the cycle of Orion's rebirth. The mods Grimhammer and Zarkis' Wood Elves have done a great job of implementing this immersive feature into the game and it has made me always launch attacks whenever Orion returns and return to the forests in the winter as if I'd actually be going on wild hunts.

I know one of the reasons CA said that they skipped on seasons was because they don't wanna make characters age, cause it would suck if your Karl Franz would die of old age for example. But this is fantasy. You can have both a sense of time passing while not having your characters age. Having seasons, apart from adding an extra form of game-play where the player has to change the way they play depending on the season, is also perfect for adding to narratives. TWW is a game that really pulls the player into the rich world of Warhammer. Being under siege by the forces of Chaos during a cold winter while fighting with tooth and nail to keep your stronghold just sounds awesome and I've already had a lot of cool scenarios like this in Three Kingdoms.

4- More narrative events and CIVILIANS/REFUGEES. One problem that I've had with the events in TWH is that they don't feel like they're actually happening. It's mostly just numbers that either give you buffs/debuffs. What if there were the option for more player interventions/AI actually taking actions during an event. I really hope CA introduces to WH3 are more impactful events that can change the course of a campaign. As of now, the campaign in WH feels very...dead.. An awesome new feature could be refugees. I had this idea after I played an ambush battle in three kingdoms where I had the option of sending my troops to a designated part of the map in order for them to flee the battle. Since in 3k you also have civilians in siege battles, why can't we get them in Warhammer? Imagine having not just your regular land battles, river battles, siege battles, but also RESCUE missions where you have to defend civilians by holding the enemy before they can get to all of them. Or where as an evil faction you occupy the rescue area and have more captured units after a victory. This could also add extra penalties for a faction if they lose too many civilians, and lead to rebellions. Not much happens in the campaign.

Here are some examples of what events we could get to spice up the campaign and make it feel more alive and also to change the course of a campaign.

- Have events where you get a warning of a growing Brayheard in x province which you have a few turns to prepare for.
- An event where a specific skaven faction that you're at war with has released a highly contagious plague on your empire and that THAT same faction actually uses this opportunity to their benefit by sending their armies at you or that they spawn a small stack which grows every turn for the duration of the plague.
- An earthquake which damages your region, but unearths a lost Lizardmen artefact. The closest AI lizardmen faction gets ordered to reach that treasure in order to obtain it for themselves and return to their region after that, but the player/other factions have the choice of taking that treasure for themselves. They will get into war with that Lizardmen faction for taking one of the artefacts of their old ones.
- When an AI faction sends their Black Arc near a coastal region of a neutral/enemy faction, they fire up an event where from it small armies can spawn every x turns. The player/AI faction has to destroy/make the Black Arc flee in order to end the Dark Elf pirate raid. The player can also get this event as a random low chance dilemma if they have a very high strength rank.
- An event which can occur if a general of yours is in a region with low public order for too long/has low loyalty. They get accused of wanting to overthrow you and if the suspicions are true and no action is taken, they form their own rebel faction to face you.
- A town of yours which is suspected of having chaos worshippers in it where you have to send a lord to investigate. Depending on the severity of the cult's taint/size, you have a choice 3 choices:

a) leave the town be. your lord will not be happy with this and depending on the severity of the chaos corruption might split into their own faction after one turn in order to destroy the town with its denizens (let's say above 50%).
b) kill every civilian, your lord would gain a negative trait that lowers public order and leadership within a small aura around them. You also lose a small amount of public order for a few turns in the province which you did the massacre.
c) if above a high amount of chaos corruption, you have the option of fighting against a chaos army spawned in that region via a gate and get as many refugees as you can into a designated area of the map in order to save the populace and gain a positive trait on your lord + a positive effect for that region.


And the most exciting events can be these mid-late game "End Times" style events which can completely shift the course of a campaign, such as:

- A greenskin faction which becomes so strong that they band all other greenskin factions together to launch an attack towards a set direction. It'd be a threat on a global scale.
- A late game timer where if the player doesn't capture x and y settlement, the skaven are gonna launch a doomsday device that will send shards of Morrslieb across the globe, increasing skaven corruption everywhere and adding attrition to armies + damaging buildings in random regions due to meteor strikes.
- The Undead trying to summon Nagash into the world where they ACTUALLY have to send their armies to place X and Y in order to get the necessary ritual requirements in order to summon Nagash. If the player doesn't intercept these armies and just leaves them to capturing the settlement/killing the army/gaining the treasure that they need, they'll allow them to get closer to summoning the Great Necromancer, which would lead to a world ending event where everyone can unite to defeat him once and for all.
- An event where Arkhan/any of Nagash's loyal followers has made preparations on heading to the Black Pyramid in order to cast a spell which could spread vampiric corruption across the entire world unless they're stopped and the pyramid is destroyed/captured.

Now of course for all these "end times-esque" events which are on a timer, the player would need to have enough turns to get there on time to do anything. A 10 minute interval would be unfair to a player who starts in Naggarond for example if they'd have to go all the way to the Black Pyramid. The player should also have the choice to ignore these events, but if they do ignore them, their campaign becomes gradually more difficult. It would be like trying out an in-game enabled hard mode. Of course, not all of these apocalyptic events have to happen in the same play-through nor do they have to happen simultaneously.





Comments

  • CosmicMoanCosmicMoan Registered Users Posts: 37
    Another idea for refugees that I forgot to mention.

    When a faction with a legendary faction leader dies, their faction goes to another of their same race with the highest strength rank/if no other faction of the same race remains, they head to another faction that follows their same alignment. That faction then has two options. Accept the refugees in and suffer factionwide public order debuffs, or kill them and gain a negative trait for the faction leader, or leave them, so they will stay dead unless they get revived at some point by another faction. If the faction with the dilemma is of the same faction that is asking for aid, they can confederate the remaining forces of that faction, but they will gain the regular confederation debuff. Here's an example:

    If Karl Franz's faction is destroyed, he and his remaining followers will head to a still existing Empire faction (let's say Nuln) where they will become Nuln's refugees. Nuln can either give them a settlement or control them as an army and can capture a settlement with the refugee army in order for the defeated faction to return once again. Or they can simply confederate them.

    If there is no Empire faction left and Karl Franz was the last one that got defeated, he will go to either the Dwarfs, Kislev, Bretonnia or the High/Wood Elves instead, if any of them remain. This will guarantee that a defeated player faction can still return as long as they have someone who can accept them as refugees.

    For the evil factions it can work the same way. Vampires can offer their allegiance to the dark elves/vice versa. The only factions I don't see accepting refugees for their own personal gains are Lizardmen, Greenskins and Horde factions.

    DrunkFlamingo has already made a great mod that does something similar. I just think there's a lot of potential in adding such a feature to TWW3. It's another way of having those lords that you can't get to confederate on the other side of the map in case they get killed or to potentially have these lords around in the late game.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,183
    Many things in the campaign was simplified because they are less fitting for a non-human factions.
  • TumbleTumble Registered Users Posts: 555
    3 kingdoms diplomacy and some proper siege/ settlement battles and I'm happy. Imagine how great it would be on a dwarf campaign for example to secure trade deals with items that you have crafted!
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,034
    This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think you have to be careful about overwhelming people with too many features to manage.

    For example, while most people seem to like it, I feel like they went a little overboard with character management in Three Kingdoms. You hire characters as generals, you manage character assignments, you put characters in charge of commanderies, you arrange marriages and select heirs, you promote characters to higher positions, you assign characters as spies, you manage all these characters skills, you equip all these characters with gear, you manage their satisfaction and then you have to make sure their traits align properly.

    For seasoned players this may seem trivial, but for me it was a little much.

    It's fine to add new features, but you need to ensure that it's not an overwhelming amount of micromanagement every turn.
  • EarthDragonEarthDragon Registered Users Posts: 416
    I don’t much care for seasons as this isn’t a game which has a “yearly” time reference or limit, just turns. Having season like effects as random events would be welcome, but there really isn’t a solid reason to force extra map layering.

    Trade could definitely be spruced up beyond just “I need spices for this dagger!” More meaningful interactions would be welcome.

    Most of these systems need to stay streamlined though. The focus of this game is the combat. While trading and demanding territories would be most welcome (if I can pay you 2000 for that city to complete the province, I may go that route) maneuvering armies on the campaign map and in the battle instances needs to remain the focus.

    Fleshing our systems already in place would be my preferred place to start on many of these as well. Some factions have terrible and awfully shallow tech trees. Improving on these would be most welcome.
  • angry_rat_loverangry_rat_lover Registered Users Posts: 1,342
    I really want to see that but CA is well... CA you know, too much work

    Soon
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,183
    Jman5 said:

    This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think you have to be careful about overwhelming people with too many features to manage.

    For example, while most people seem to like it, I feel like they went a little overboard with character management in Three Kingdoms. You hire characters as generals, you manage character assignments, you put characters in charge of commanderies, you arrange marriages and select heirs, you promote characters to higher positions, you assign characters as spies, you manage all these characters skills, you equip all these characters with gear, you manage their satisfaction and then you have to make sure their traits align properly.

    For seasoned players this may seem trivial, but for me it was a little much.

    It's fine to add new features, but you need to ensure that it's not an overwhelming amount of micromanagement every turn.

    Yes an less complex games are easier to play, but I don't think that the main reason that the campaign was simplified in the Total War: Warhammer Trilogy is to make the game easier for new players.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,540
    Personally I'd like to see a lot more doodads on the campaign map that you can interact with like you can with ruins and shipwrecks.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,183

    I really want to see that but CA is well... CA you know, too much work.

    It's harder to reuse mechanics for Total War: Warhammer Trilogy, so it's really would take more work.
  • BonutzBonutz Registered Users Posts: 2,933
    Another simple feature from 3K that NEEDS to be a part of every Total War moving forward is the Make This Work button. Such a simple but godly feature.
  • CosmicMoanCosmicMoan Registered Users Posts: 37
    Tayvar said:

    Many things in the campaign was simplified because they are less fitting for a non-human factions.

    Yeah but I've already explained how said features can work for other factions. Apart from the diplomacy and spy system ideas, all other features can enrich the campaign experience for other factions. And with CA's creativity (no pun intended) creating exciting events shouldn't be that much of a daunting task.
    Jman5 said:

    This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I think you have to be careful about overwhelming people with too many features to manage.

    For example, while most people seem to like it, I feel like they went a little overboard with character management in Three Kingdoms. You hire characters as generals, you manage character assignments, you put characters in charge of commanderies, you arrange marriages and select heirs, you promote characters to higher positions, you assign characters as spies, you manage all these characters skills, you equip all these characters with gear, you manage their satisfaction and then you have to make sure their traits align properly.

    For seasoned players this may seem trivial, but for me it was a little much.

    It's fine to add new features, but you need to ensure that it's not an overwhelming amount of micromanagement every turn.

    Yeah but non of what I suggested would reach that level of clutter and complexity. I dont think the character system would fit in warhammer anyway and I agree TWH doesn't need the level of complexity that 3k has, but seasons, refugees etc.? These wouldn't be too much to ask for in my opinion and could be very refreshing for the WH franchise. These aren't really any complicated features either. Just add more decision making and change how a player has to make their next moves. And the spy system would really only apply for certain races. I don't think Empire should be able to send a spy to greenskins for example.
  • CosmicMoanCosmicMoan Registered Users Posts: 37
    Bonutz619 said:

    Another simple feature from 3K that NEEDS to be a part of every Total War moving forward is the Make This Work button. Such a simple but godly feature.

    You mean the option in diplomacy to intimidate someone with war if they don't agree with a proposal?
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,183

    Tayvar said:

    Many things in the campaign was simplified because they are less fitting for a non-human factions.

    Yeah but I've already explained how said features can work for other factions. Apart from the diplomacy and spy system ideas, all other features can enrich the campaign experience for other factions. And with CA's creativity (no pun intended) creating exciting events shouldn't be that much of a daunting task.
    Yes, but it's likely more complicated than you think, for example blocking skaven's trade routes is not going to be easy, considering that skaven can smuggle things from the underground, and then there is the whole balancing mortal and immortal lords, which is possible as dominions 5 can attest, but it would take a lot of work, and same goes for a real supply lines mechanic, that should not have much of a effect on undead armies, and gifting ancillaries? it much easier to make it work when all factions are humans, as well as humans from basically the same culture, then the ancillaries could be reused and then factions are not able to get a ancillary that would make zero sense for them.
  • CosmicMoanCosmicMoan Registered Users Posts: 37
    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Many things in the campaign was simplified because they are less fitting for a non-human factions.

    Yeah but I've already explained how said features can work for other factions. Apart from the diplomacy and spy system ideas, all other features can enrich the campaign experience for other factions. And with CA's creativity (no pun intended) creating exciting events shouldn't be that much of a daunting task.
    Yes, but it's likely more complicated than you think, for example blocking skaven's trade routes is not going to be easy, considering that skaven can smuggle things from the underground, and then there is the whole balancing mortal and immortal lords, which is possible as dominions 5 can attest, but it would take a lot of work, and same goes for a real supply lines mechanic, that should not have much of a effect on undead armies, and gifting ancillaries? it much easier to make it work when all factions are humans, as well as humans from basically the same culture, then the ancillaries could be reused and then factions are not able to get a ancillary that would make zero sense for them.
    As already mentioned. ageing doesn't have to be a thing in WH cause it's fantasy. We can have seasons without characters dying from old age.

    I don't see why Skaven wouldn't be excluded from this hindrance. It would be something unique to them.

    What you say about the ancillaries though, I can understand. I think it would make most sense and be less taxing for the devs to make a faction only have the option of trading ancillaries with the same race. So elves can trade with other elves, humans/vampires with humans/vampires, dwarfs with dwarfs. Chaos and Skaven would probably be able to trade ancillaries with anyone imo and if I remember correctly warpstone is something is always sought after by all factions.

    But yeah, I can see why you're sceptical about this, cause it'd take a lot of effort to make this work. But I honestly think TWW3 HAS to introduce a lot improvements and highly requested features (within reason) in order to make the 60 dollar price worth it. Making the map larger, adding 4 races and a few QoL changes won't cut it.
  • TumbleTumble Registered Users Posts: 555
    wishlist of features:

    1) "make this work" diplomacy
    2) trade ancillaries, weapons etc
    3) trade provinces of unfavourable climate
    4) gold tribute for number of turns

    5)defendable farm structures and the sort as seen in 3k and other TW games
    6) larger siege maps for capital cities, comparable to 3k.

    7) character duels
    8) appoint lords or heroes as governers for a region (to empower edict or additional effect)

    9)destructable and ignitable terrain like in 3k
  • CosmicMoanCosmicMoan Registered Users Posts: 37
    I'm all for destructible and ignitable terrain.
    And I fully agree with points 1-4, 8-9.

    I've honestly given up hope on them revamping siege maps. It is too monumental a task at this point if they had to change every siege map in the game and it would take time from other aspects of the game that they could improve.

    What they can do is add some improvements to sieges like changing tower attack radius, that enemies don't flee inside your city, increased leadership for defenders when defending in the city/town etc.

    Character duels might sound cool, but it's the same problem that you have to create animations for every character model. Meaning that Karl Franz is gonna need duel animations for being on foot, on his horse, on a flying horse and then deathclaw vs Mannfred on foot, on hhis horse, his flying horse, his dragon. But then you have someone like Thorgrim, Cauldron of Blood for Hag Queen, Mountless LLs who'd need animations with every other model unique to them (I don't see kholek, grimgor, queek and sigvald sharing the same animations.

    If they were to introduce duelling to the game, I have a strong feeling it would take development time off of more urgent improvements to the campaign. Unless they just surprise somehow.

  • Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 1,400
    I really want "trading regions" back. Really annoying if one of your best allies/trading partners is holding the last remaining region in the province you want.
    Also more live on the map please, like roads appearing once you have constructed Black Roads for example.

    Something I would not mind having it back, would be buildings also providing maluses. I am talking about Income Buildings reducing Public Order or Growth Buildings reducing income. A bit like it was back in Rome2(I have not touched Attila or 3K so no idea if it is there as well).

    I do not want too much, though, since it can easily become too much.
    "In brightest day, in blackest night,
    No faction shall escape my sight.
    Let those who think deniers are right
    Beware my power--Faction Lantern's light!"

    Everythime a faction/race is excluded from the trilogy, these games become smaller. RIP Araby and others.
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