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Vampire counts range units

rafantomasrafantomas Posts: 415Registered Users
Why do Vampire counts reject shooting anything? No catapults, bows, guns, acid,etc
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  • FossowayFossoway Posts: 2,015Registered Users
    edited August 17

    Why do Vampire counts reject shooting anything? No catapults, bows, guns, acid,etc

    Because the VC undeads are basically puppets that lacks the intelligence and dexterity to manipulate anything more complex than basic weapons. Tomb Kings on the other hand retains their souls (or at least part of it) - they are not puppets, just undead humans with some various degree of sentience depending on how well their body is conserved.

    Well, technically, Nagash's undead do have some catapults, but he's the most powerful necromancer, so let's forgive him this breach of the rules.
  • rafantomasrafantomas Posts: 415Registered Users
    edited August 17
    And what about spikes? maybe spikes or nails can be used as ranged weapons. Dead bodies catapults maybe? A huge mobster throwing dead bodies to enemies ?

    Crossbownes!
  • Bogdanov89Bogdanov89 Posts: 535Registered Users
    Vampire Counts do have ranged weapons but they are used by the human population/slaves.

    VCounts are supposed to have some human troops as well (AFAIK) but so far they only got crossbowman and handgunner.
    Check out the Community Bug Fix Mod on the Steam Workshop.
  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Posts: 1,347Registered Users
    edited August 17

    Vampire Counts do have ranged weapons but they are used by the human population/slaves.

    VCounts are supposed to have some human troops as well (AFAIK) but so far they only got crossbowman and handgunner.

    Sylvania does, not Vampire Counts as a whole. It was never really a part of the TT roster for VC in general.
  • MarkerMarker Posts: 759Registered Users
    edited August 17

    Why do Vampire counts reject shooting anything? No catapults, bows, guns, acid,etc

    Terrorgheist does have some though :wink:

    And if u want to play a ranged undead army, Vampire Coast or Tomb kings is the way to go.
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Posts: 1,252Registered Users
    edited August 17
    Ranged weapons are useless, just drown your enemies under corpses :grimace:
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Posts: 1,589Registered Users
    edited August 17
    It's excused in the lore but the main reason is to make an interesting army with a clear weakness/hole in their roster.

    Kind of like how Dwarfs have no cavalry, Vampire Counts have no ranged units.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,637Registered Users
    edited August 17
    Basically as been said above by Nitros14, it's due to balance and flavor mostly.
    But its also stated in Lore that:
    - reanimating undead to make them ranged power is problematic due to higher animation requirement and quality of the troops, plus equipment requirements.
    - living troops usually aren't treated well, equiped or trained and used mostly as last resort or for specific niche stuff
    Top both aspects with Vampires (and Necromancers for some reason) being more conservative regarding their tactics and Counts being more oriented on sheer numbers and melee and magic pressure.


    Meanwhile, I won't say that Counts didn't have ranged units.
    They had Skeleton Crossbowmen (Storm of Chaos), Skeleton Archers (Blood Dragons 6th edition) and Sylvanian Levy (Empire troops - Carsteins 6th edition) in TT, plus Zombie Dragon, Terrorgheist and Mortis Engine possessed binded ranged damage dealing effects.
    In TW:WH they also have towers, which possess ranged force.
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  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Posts: 1,347Registered Users
    Now, if you bring up why Vampire Coast zombies can't draw a bow and loosely aim, but Vampire Coast Zombies can put gundpowder down a barrel, a bullet down a barrel, aim the barrel and fire the trigger, you have a fair place where the lore contradicts itself.

    There is probably some lore that says that Luthor Harkon used Lizardmen artifacts to make superior zombies or some nonsense, but the real answer is that zombie pirates are cool, and pirates need guns. Also the army list that CA based the Vampire Coast on is pretty old and probably predates all that lore about the different parts of the soul.
  • steph74steph74 Junior Member Posts: 897Registered Users
    I personally don't like the Vampirates. Too "modern". Empire has some basic gunpowder, like renaissance era.

    Vampirates have muskets which are 2 centuries later and don't fit well... They should just use weapons invented and produced by others, not develop their own.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 1,677Registered Users

    Now, if you bring up why Vampire Coast zombies can't draw a bow and loosely aim, but Vampire Coast Zombies can put gundpowder down a barrel, a bullet down a barrel, aim the barrel and fire the trigger, you have a fair place where the lore contradicts itself.

    There is probably some lore that says that Luthor Harkon used Lizardmen artifacts to make superior zombies or some nonsense, but the real answer is that zombie pirates are cool, and pirates need guns. Also the army list that CA based the Vampire Coast on is pretty old and probably predates all that lore about the different parts of the soul.

    The lore doesn't contradict itself at all. The lore quite clearly states taht the reason that normal undead (zombies and skeletons) can't use ranged weapons is because tehy are literally soulless automaton husks only directed by the will of the necromancer.

    Zombie Pirates are different, since a vestige of their soul remains in them, which allows the Necromancer to use less of his own power in animating them. Sometimes the Zombie Pirates are also not a result of a Necromancer at all, but rather a result of curses (the old 'cursed gold' trope for instance). That is also why the Zombie Pirates of the Vcoast actually have voicelines.
  • sandercohensandercohen Posts: 144Registered Users
    The justification that shooting arrows from bows is too complex for undead automatons to handle never made any sense to me.

    If you can march in perfect synchrony, if you are able to use sword and shield, deflect blows and arrows, brace against cavalry charges, find paths relatively autonomously, ride skeletal steeds and so on, then I don't see how you can't use bows and arrows, handguns or crossbows. I mean accuracy isn't even that much of a concern when you can simply darken the skies with arrows, it's not like skeletons operate individually, they operate in regiments of 90 - 120 strong.
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,109Registered Users
    Is operating a crossbow really harder to accomplish than using sword and board? No. Not to any degree of skill, anyway. Both require more dexterity than your standard Roomba has to use vaguely well, even though neither needs the training of a longbow, arguably. However...

    If you have zero knowledge of how to use a sword and shield, you can still carry them and flail your arms around a bit. If you don't know how to use a crossbow, flailing your arms around won't be quite as effective.

    Anyway, it's a fantasy game with logic sometimes taking a back seat.

    Writing extensive amounts of lore for a grand-scale fantasy world that spans to encompass a massive table-top game has its challenges, I imagine. Standing up to logical scrutiny of all kinds is likely asking too much.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,637Registered Users

    Now, if you bring up why Vampire Coast zombies can't draw a bow and loosely aim, but Vampire Coast Zombies can put gundpowder down a barrel, a bullet down a barrel, aim the barrel and fire the trigger, you have a fair place where the lore contradicts itself.

    But, Vampire Counts can. They just don't do that often and more on rare ocassions, because quality, rarity and problematic nature of such troops are downsides for them and zombies/skeletons spam is more fitting for their tactics.
    Ranged units for Counts were presented in 6th edition and supplements (after TK and Counts splitted) and weren't excluded from Lore perspective even after (though were excluded from TT armybooks). But here I assume, it happened for bigger flavor and distinction between Counts and TK and to make emphasis on magic, monsters and chaff bigger.

    As for Coast, as CaesarSahlertz said, it's stated in Lore that, if we talk about Harkon, Coast uses different type of magic compared to Counts (more precise and powerful, which maintains integrity of souls and bodies to bigger degrees, that's why they are zombies and not skeletons and that's why they can talk more like Wights or TK troops) and troops are basically flow into Harkon hands with all equipment (and those, which don't could be found in seas or at the seashores).
    In TW:WH that was extended to other LLs, but for different reasons (Aranassa and Direfin due to "Gods" involvement and Noctilus due to his Maelstrom), unificating and expanding idea of Sea/Ocean elements and their mythology and culture.
    Some aspects were empowered and expanded further, like Zombies could actually shoot well without damaging themselves and instead of teraformation of areas or alongside with it (if to take corruption into account or natural effects from Undead presence in Lore) they could basically summon support wherever they want by teleporting it via magic tools.
    steph74 said:

    Empire has some basic gunpowder, like renaissance era.

    Vampirates have muskets which are 2 centuries later and don't fit well... They should just use weapons invented and produced by others, not develop their own.

    All the weapons, which used by Coast produced by others (DoW, Empire, Cathay etc). Either we don't see some of these weapons in rosters of existing factions for some reason (mostly due to a reason that they are used for sea contacts only or maybe there are some balance, flavor, need reasons on top of that) or these factions not presented in game at least for now.
    As for muskets - I don't know almost anything about weapons, so not a big expert and I don't see big difference apart from some visual elements between rifles/handguns of Empire and rifles/handguns of Coast, but from what I understand, they present rifles in general and their visual presentation may be some specified variant or just incorrect visualization.
    On top of that, as far as I understand, Wiki states that muskets is a pretty free term and may include many long rifles with a flintlock in general from different centuries.

    Anyway, it seems that pointing at something being anachronistic element in such complex fantasy is a bit wierd, especially with taking into account that this fantasy world, while being based on ours and seems to have some timeline restrictions still never states them and presents elements from older and modern times with different history and changes as result. We have lots of elements like warp weapons or volley guns, rocket batteries, steam tanks, which seem didn't exist or existed in more modern time or/and with different implementation.
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  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 1,677Registered Users

    Is operating a crossbow really harder to accomplish than using sword and board? No. Not to any degree of skill, anyway. Both require more dexterity than your standard Roomba has to use vaguely well, even though neither needs the training of a longbow, arguably. However...

    If you have zero knowledge of how to use a sword and shield, you can still carry them and flail your arms around a bit. If you don't know how to use a crossbow, flailing your arms around won't be quite as effective.

    Anyway, it's a fantasy game with logic sometimes taking a back seat.

    Writing extensive amounts of lore for a grand-scale fantasy world that spans to encompass a massive table-top game has its challenges, I imagine. Standing up to logical scrutiny of all kinds is likely asking too much.

    The bolded part is LITERALLY the explanation for as to why the undead automatons can use melee weapons and not ranged... Like... Literally.

    It is not like skeletons and zombies are using their weapons with any amount of skill or finesse and they are, in fact, quite often merely flailing their arms about.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 19,630Registered Users
    The "too mindless to use a ranged weapon" explanation only covers zombies and skeletons. Ghouls might be too feral, but Grave Guard, wights and vampires should be able to use ranged weapons as they retain more of their personality in death.

    This is really less a lore and more of a gameplay balance quirk. The strong and reliable healing and summoning of the vampire counts is balanced by not letting them deal damage without risking their own HP.

    VCoast actually shows why this was necessary as they were god-tier for quite a few patches since they gravely (har-di-har) violated this balancing element.

  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Posts: 1,109Registered Users

    Is operating a crossbow really harder to accomplish than using sword and board? No. Not to any degree of skill, anyway. Both require more dexterity than your standard Roomba has to use vaguely well, even though neither needs the training of a longbow, arguably. However...

    If you have zero knowledge of how to use a sword and shield, you can still carry them and flail your arms around a bit. If you don't know how to use a crossbow, flailing your arms around won't be quite as effective.

    Anyway, it's a fantasy game with logic sometimes taking a back seat.

    Writing extensive amounts of lore for a grand-scale fantasy world that spans to encompass a massive table-top game has its challenges, I imagine. Standing up to logical scrutiny of all kinds is likely asking too much.

    The bolded part is LITERALLY the explanation for as to why the undead automatons can use melee weapons and not ranged... Like... Literally.

    It is not like skeletons and zombies are using their weapons with any amount of skill or finesse and they are, in fact, quite often merely flailing their arms about.
    Yes. That's why I wrote that. Like, literally.
  • sandercohensandercohen Posts: 144Registered Users
    edited August 19
    Except skeletons do not just 'flail their arms around.' Like I said they can recognize when they're being shot at by arrows and raise their shield in response, they brace for cavalry charges, they block blows, they can somewhat path-find autonomously, they march in perfect unison to the point that no human regiment can mirror it, and so on. Unless the necromancers monitors each and every movement they make (which is unlikely) it's not a sufficient reason why they don't use bows.

    That's not even mentioning other undead entities like grave guard and wight kings, who retain a much bigger portion of their souls and even have the ability to speak (at least wight kings do) so they should be able to use ranged weapons if they so choose.

    It would've been a better justification if Vampire Counts just consider it pussified weapons and don't use it out of principle, or even have some laws against it.

    I'm not saying we should add undead ranged units to the VC by the way, just that the justification for NOT using them never made sense to me. I think not having ranged tools as the counts (except as a flavour pick in campaign) is actually a good thing as it practically defines the faction at this point.
    Post edited by sandercohen on
  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,863Registered Users
    I guess there is also a tactical element involved. For an army that relies on causing fear engaging in melee may be the better choice.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,637Registered Users

    The "too mindless to use a ranged weapon" explanation only covers zombies and skeletons. Ghouls might be too feral, but Grave Guard, wights and vampires should be able to use ranged weapons as they retain more of their personality in death.

    This is really less a lore and more of a gameplay balance quirk.

    Well, sort of agree about zombies, skeletons and ghouls.
    And indeed agree that Wights, Necromancers and Vampires should be able to use ranged weapons.
    This has some issues with explanation indeed, imo.

    From what I've heard:

    - Wights are often still not good enough for precise movements and better in melee.
    Also I heard agrument that they are too ancient (though Wights could be made from more modern elite troops or from specific races like Dwarfs) to understand how to use these type of weapons or these type of weapons (like bows) are destroyed after time, so Vampires/Necromancers need to provide weapons for them. With that said, I think it's easier to make some strong bow with ammunition, rather than Shield+Sword or Great Weapon

    - Vampires become very blood hungry and furious during fight and prefer to fight in melee, rather then shoot from distance. Some were turned many years ago and quite conservative regarding their tactics. But then, if that definitely fits Strigoi Bloodline and maybe Blood Dragon Bloodline (which is ironical, if to take into account that Harkon is most famous Vampire, who uses ranged weapons and he's Blood Dragon; on top of that 6th edition Blood Dragons were the only one, which had Undead Archers in official armybook), but then we have Carsteins and of course Lahmian/Necrarchs, which are less famous for their fury/blood hunger and martial arts

    - Necromancers probably just too specfied on magic arts, rather than any form of personal fighting. Why they don't create some ranged machines then (sort of non-stationary towers) or use more precise magic or use human troops (since they potentially fit better in human society, than most vampires) - still under question


    VCoast actually shows why this was necessary as they were god-tier for quite a few patches since they gravely (har-di-har) violated this balancing element.

    Here I would disagree.
    I think issue was caused by faction balance being around lack of healing sources to the point that it seemed that Coast should be functionally fine without any LoV caster with their units big HP pools and I assume idea why LoV wasn't such a big deal as concept in this approach, was due to a fact that Coast is more about going wide and more about ranged, rather blobing.
    That's what I thought at first place as well, though I still thought that IoN should be more restricted/less useful/cost-effective for Coast (especially with LoD integration).

    In reality in some cases potential abuse from uncapped IoN was even bigger for Coast, compared to Counts due to balance around "no healing sources" and bigge HP pools on average, plus ranged support being strong on its own and some units overperforming regardless any balance concepts.
    In current state IoN integration seems to be more balanced for Coast, but it damaged Counts powers/flavor a lot and I would prefer direct nerfs being reverted and cap being more mild, but Coast getting cost increase for LoV casters and IoN WoM cost increase exclusively instead.

    Except skeletons do not just 'flail their arms around.' Like I said they can recognize when they're being shot at by arrows and raise their shield in response, they brace for cavalry charges, they block blows, they can somewhat path-find autonomously, they march in perfect unison to the point that no human regiment can mirror it, and so on. Unless the necromancers monitors each and every movement they make (which is unlikely) it's not a sufficient reason why they don't use bows.

    I honestly don't know, if Skeletons raise their shields or summoners do this for them/programmed this commands in their fractured minds to make minimal unique interactions and being controlled as a whole in other aspects (unison thing).

    As for rest, I mostly agree as I said in this post above.
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  • WyvaxWyvax Posts: 1,762Registered Users
    I suspect that the reason that zombies and skeletons can't use bows or guns is because fine motor movement is beyond the scope of reality for armies. Think about puppeteering a marionette. You can make one swing a sword, dance and limbo, but you can't make it fire a bow or play an instrument. Same is true for masses of undead puppets I imagine. A skilled necromancer could probably make a small company of skeleton archers or even a five piece band if he wanted to. But it's vastly more efficient to focus all that energy into a far larger group of thralls and send them en masse at the foe.

    As for the wights including the Grave Guard and Black Knights, well they were elite melee fighters in life so why would they suddenly switch to using a bow or rifle in unlife? Black Knights for instance are KNIGHTS, knights don't fight from afar like an honorless peasant, just ask the Bretonnians. As to why the Vampire Coast does use guns, the answer is comparable. Their zombies are technically wights too (lizard trinket magic, Maelstrom power and curses from sea deities). And sailors, especially pirates knew their way around the barrel of a gun and cannons.

    Lastly, the purpose of ranged weapons was too kill as many of the foe before they could reach you to kill you in melee. When you can snap your fingers and make all of your casualties get up and get back into the fight, then it's not like you really need the advantage of ranged or advanced weaponry then, especially when every foe that dies can be swapped to your side. Nagash was beating the Skaven at a war of attrition that way, so much so that they decided diplomacy was the only option left.

    As for Tomb Kings undead, they all do exactly in death whatever they did in life, whether that's firing bows, sweeping floors or drinking wine that they cannot taste or keep from spilling out of their ribcages.
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