What do you want to see from a Southern Realms unit Roster?

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

As you may know, I've been working on a 'updated missing characters and units' series of posts over the past few weeks but obviously I'm having to wait out the storm of this DLC. I've been updating my lists and working on new ones but I can't continue until all the new stuff has been revealed and released.

So instead I was inspired to move onto the next thing I had planned: a southern realms army list for Tilea, Estalia and the Border Princes.

The problem is: there's no real official list of their units. I've collected units from lore snippets and DoW but it's all very tucked away and I don't want to miss anything.

So I thought I'd throw it out to the forums while I work on it to see if you know anything I don't.

I've also been drawing from these fan made army books:

https://issuu.com/m4cr1ii3n/docs/warhammer-armies---estalia_20100908_225012
https://issuu.com/m4cr1ii3n/docs/warhammer_armies_-_dogs_of_war

And I've been trying to run background checks on all of the units but it's all very esoteric.

So I ask you, what units do you know of, what ones are legit and what do you want to see from Southern Realms?

My roster so far:

Edit: (this isn't everything I've collected and it's not representative of a final list. This is meant to be a representation of southern realms core units, excluding Dogs of War that are available to everyone like Armoured orcs, High elves etc. Feel free to mention these if you wish)

Generic lords and heroes

- Priestess of Mirmidia

- Inquisitor (witch hunter/arch lector combo)

- Diestros (dualist fencer)

- Hired assassin

- Mercenary general

- Hireling wizard/battle magi

Infantry units

- Terico Pikemen

- Rodeleros (sword infantry)

- Black Watchmen (halberd heavy infantry)

- Sisters of fury (Shield maidens of Mirmidia)

- Pit fighters

- Mercenaries of Fortune

- Mountain bandits

- Slayer Pirates (Dwarfs)

- Halflings

- Vespero's Vendetta (assassin's)

Missile units

- Grenadiers

- Royal guard (heavy armour arquebusiers)

- Bandit Skirmishers

- Braganza's Besiegers (crossbows with a shieldwall/turtle)

Cavalry units

- Knights of the blazing sun

- Order of the righteous spear (Anti-Large spear cav)

- Stradiots (light missile cav)

- Conquistadors

Beast units

- Fire Bulls

- War Dogs

- Giants / Albion Giants

Flying units

- The Birdmen of Carazza (crossbowmen with da Vinci gliders that fly)

- Griffin / Pegasus Riders

Artillery units

- Bronzino's Galloper Guns (light artillery that can be fixed to the back of carriages)

- Ballista

- Scorpion

- Ribaults

- Halfling Hot Pot

Vanilla_Gorilla · August 2019

Flamboyance.

I want motherlovers who go out to battle wearing their most expensive garments. I want Midas the Mean riding a big old chariot carrying his gold standing next to his food loving buddy. I want a full roster of rebels, losers, outcasts, and the Hungry (you forgot Ogres OP

) banding together in the search of a quick buck, a long fight, and somewhere to stay for the night.

Xenos7777 · August 2019

As a lore-abiding roster, I think Cataph's Southern Realms mod + working pavise shields + working pikemen phalanx + birdmen of Catrazza would be good enough.

But it CA invents new lore, I would really love a clockpunk flavour, with clockwork automatons and Da Vinci turtle tanks.

Talmorean · August 2019

Asarnil the Dragon Lord as a LL.

OdTengri · August 2019

SeanJeanquoi said:
The problem is: there's no real official list of their units.

Yes there is, you can find it in Warhammer Chronicles 2004 and the 5E rule book. I expect those sources to make up 70-80% of their roster.

Again @SeanJeanquoi Your inability to find sources leads you to make strange posts purposing odd things.

Vanilla_Gorilla · August 2019

Xenos7 said:
As a lore-abiding roster, I think Cataph's Southern Realms mod + working pavise shields + working pikemen phalanx + birdmen of Catrazza would be good enough.

But it CA invents new lore, I would really love a clockpunk flavour, with clockwork automatons and Da Vinci turtle tanks.

I think it'd be fair to update them to 8e. Before they were discontinued the plan was (Lets say likely was because I'm too lazy to find a source) to use them to add the races that didn't have books. Things like not-samurai would've been added in a theoretical book, or at least would be logical inclusions.

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

@OdTengri

I have read through their stuff but most of it is RoR and units from other factions which I'm trying to avoid.

OdTengri · August 2019

SeanJeanquoi said:
@OdTengri

I have read through their stuff but most of it is RoR and units from other factions which I'm trying to avoid.

Then how is it you missed over half their units.

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

@OdTengri

When I make threads like this I am open about the fact that I'm just throwing it over to you guys to get your opinions and so you can offer something I might not know.

The list is a work in progress. I'm not presenting to you my final findings, I am working on my final findings and asking you on the side.

I don't see how this constitutes 'an inability to find sources' when this thread is litterally me saying "I'm working on it seperate from you guys but do you have anything to add?"

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

@OdTengri

'how did you missing half their units'

If you are referring to Dogs of War/RoR units like Leopold's Leopard company, Pirazzo's lost Legion, Ricco's Republican Guard then those are RoR/dogs of war, which I am intentionally trying to leave off to the side for now because "my list so far" is supposed to be their core units and roster. I'm not going to leave these units out entirely.

There are a plethora of units I didn't mention In my 'what I've got so far' because it was supposed to be a ballpark of what I'm working with and what I could see being their core units rather than special ones, DoW and units comprised of other races such as Elves, Greenskins Etc.

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

@Vanilla_Gorilla

I think I'm with @Xenos7 here. I'd really like for CA to make the Southern Realms their own distinct faction with Italian and Spanish alt history themes, pirates and bandits, rather than filling up their roster with every other factions races.

The RoR and Dogs of War could be a unique mechanic with unique units for hire on top of a solid SR faction.

MisterSquid · August 2019

I'd like to see the Marienburg Land Ship as a "centerpiece unit" for the Dogs of War. It'd be nice to see another large war machine unit, and it's not "techy" enough that it'd feel out of place in the Southern Realms. While I know it's technically an Empire unit, Marienburg tends to play fast and loose with what the Empire is and it's not unreasonable IMO for them to sell them to Southern Realms armies.

OdTengri · August 2019

SeanJeanquoi said:
@OdTengri

'how did you missing half their units'

If you are referring to Dogs of War/RoR units like Leopold's Leopard company, Pirazzo's lost Legion, Ricco's Republican Guard then those are RoR/dogs of war, which I am intentionally trying to leave off to the side for now because "my list so far" is supposed to be their core units and roster.

NO, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about their entire Generic Army list that you can find in Warhammer Chronicles 2004. I forget what White Dwarf they where in.

I forget what this was all in response to, I just saved it a long time ago so if it doesn't make total sense that's why.

_____________

I feel that you do this in 4 stages and you have to ask yourself several questions. First you have what could be considered their "Core List", this is what I'd call their core units.

Core

Lords

Mercenary General A (Melee)
Mercenary General B (Melee/Ranged Hybrid)

Heros

Mercenary Captain A (Melee)
Mercenary Captain B (Ranged)
Paymaster
Hireling Wizard

Units

Pikes
Armoured Pikes
Paymaster's Guard (Armored Halberds) (Older versions let them take Heavy Plate)
Duellists Dual Weapon (Tilian Duellists)
Duellists Sword n' Shield (Estalian Rodeleros)
Duellists Pistols (Sartosan Pirates)
Duellists Throwing Knives (Borderland Cutthroats)
X-Bows
Light Cav
Light Cav w/Bows
Heavy Cav
Havy Cav w/Lances
Cannons
Halfling Hot Pot

_________________
Then Second you have to decide what to do about their access to other race's units. They could field unit equal to some low tier units from the races of the Dwarfs, Norscans, Halflings & Ogres. For me its obvious that the halflings and the ogres have got to make the cut. The Halflings aren't available to any other faction so might add them here and make the Halfling hot pot not so lonely, maybe add a special building to the moot so the Empire can recruit them in campaign. They might even want to dig up a unit or two from the old halfling army list. The Ogres on the other hand are a natural fit, one is a race that regularly hires itself out and mercenaries and the other is a faction that hires nothing but Mercs and their standing army. Also the Ogres are meaty and give us the possibility of T3-4 Units. In addition to using the DoW listing for ogres they should also make an DoW Ogre Maneater variant available to both the DoW and the Ogre Kingdoms when they launch. I could see the case for dwarfs/norscans but mostly they don't offer much low tier options that are duplicate things already in the list though I could see the case for using them to justify more creative units. Honorable shout out to dwarf miners as "prospectors" though. Will call this the "Diversity Roster", take this as a maybe.

Diversity Roster

Units

Halfling Poachers
Halfling Goat Riders
Dwarf Prospectors (Miners)
Ogres
Ogres w/GW
Ogre Pirates (Ogre Pistols)

__________________
Third you down grade some RoR units to make some new generic units. Not all of these makes sense like Tichi Huichi's Raiders, but some like Braganza's Besiegers or Bronzinos Galloper Guns make a good deal of sense. Here's a few possibilities.

RoR Downgrades

Units

Braganza's Besiegers -> X-Bow w/Pavise (Light armor, Heavy reserved for the Besigers)
Bronzinos Galloper Guns -> Galloper Guns?
Birdmen of Catrazza -> Birdmen?
Long Drongs Slayer Pirates -> Dwarf Pirates?

_________________
Fourth, should they have rifles? I mean they have Pistols and Cannons. They are friendly and trade with both the dwarfs and the Empire. Sure they never had them in their own army list in 6th ED but it seems like they'd have them. So if you say yes to guns, then they should have hand gunners, also since the pavis is already in use in Tilia maybe the also have Handgunners w/Pavise.

Say Yes to Guns?

Units

Handgunners
Handgunners w/Pavise

Torcer said:
I've seen many state they want DoW as a Horde and while I'm all for more hordes in this game, I don't know what their overall goal would be.

I would have liked to have seen them as potentially a horde in the Vortex Campaign where they would replace the Vortex Intervention armies and you as the player would have been hired by the various "Vortex Players" to raid and pillage their rivals. They would have some sort of special diplomacy system to cover them being hired by other factions that both the AI would use to hire you as them or that you could use to hire them as allies as another faction. The whole point of the campaign would be to make a tone of money and sack the 7 "cities of gold" the faction capitals of the other races. (Lizardmen, Skaven, High Elves, Dark Elves, Vampire Coast, Tomb Kings, and "Araby")

In ME I expected them to be a more traditional faction that could still lend its services to others at a price, I also thing that all of the Estalian/Tilian cities should all be made into one province city states with 10-12 building slots each owned by a different faction of course. Not sure how they should handle the border princes, probably the same but with fewer building slots. The border princes should start with a random "Rouge Faction" controlling each settlement except for Akendorf where Leopold the Black Should Start. The Roge Factions with their weird mish mash of other faction units really fits the Borderlands.

OdTengri · August 2019

Here's some more info compiled by @Red_Dox

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/189962/dogs-of-war-compilation

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

@OdTengri

Perhaps I should have prefaced something: I was trying to avoid overlap with other factions, I was looking at and for unique units to them (although I did put Knights of the blazing sun in there).

I had seen all of them (aside from a few variants like hunter halflings, Halfling goat riders, ogre pirates, dwarf prospectors) already...which leads me to another point: most of what you just listed is variations.

I could have said light melee cav, light missile cav, melee Halfling, huntsman halfling but then that would have bloated the list which was meant to be just a ballpark.

As I said to Vanilla_Gorilla: I'm wanting to focus on the core units from southern realms that makes them unique in and of themselves without adding in all the other races units, then I will add the other races units on top where necessary or on the side (which is what I think CA should do)

Still, I appreciate the input and thank you for bringing to attention the ones I mentioned that I had not seen yet.

OdTengri · August 2019

Here is another fun one. Real Obscure stuff.

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/245954/dow-units-that-were-left-on-the-drawing-board#latest

tyrannus · August 2019

Units from other races should be in. That's their thing. Gimme slayer pirates and ruglud crossbow boyz.

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

@OdTengri

I think Southern Realms should be:

Spanish/Italian with some alt history fantasy units + pirates + bandits

And then dogs of war should be something off to the side but still similar (southern realms units could all potentially be in the DoW roster)

This way: Tilea, Estalia and the Border Princes could be their own unique faction with DoW elements

The New world Colonies and Sartosa could be unique pirates

And then you could have roaming DoW armies as you suggest + RoR for hire for some other factions potentially.

So the 4 lords for Southern Realms/DoW DLC could be split between the settlements in the SR themselves, a pirate faction in port Reaver with a Sartosa rework and finally a Roaming army lord.

That would be my ideal.

OdTengri · August 2019

How did you miss all the Duelists, The Armored Pikemen, The Paymater, The Paymasters Guard.

I mean I know that their generic list has wonderfully generic names like

X-Bows
Light Cav
Light Cav w/Bows
Heavy Cav
Havy Cav w/Lances
Cannons

But those are all units that are part of their official army list, and if you've simply renamed them to give them a bit of personality you need to some how designate that.

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

@OdTengri

I didn't miss them (except for the dualists who I thought were just heroes). Like I said I didn't want to bloat the list.

Also, the paymaster doesn't seem to actually fight and I was wondering if he would be pure support that can't fight or take damage or would he be something left to the lore. Considering the list has 5-6 lord and hero options I left him to one side.

I did spruce up some of the generic units by using their RoR counterpart or more special names (spear cav and Cannons/light artillery)

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

@tyrannus

I guarantee you the reason CA has put them to one side is because until recently they weren't given as much creative freedom as they have now (and are going to need in the future) and because the DoW units include every single faction.

I'm not saying they shouldn't get DoW but DoW should be something added on top of a solid unique roster for them, otherwise CA might as well just add a bunch of DoW units for their respective factions.

Commissar_G · August 2019

@OdTengri thanks for finding that summary. Brilliant compilation of... hard to find with google... info.

Vanilla_Gorilla · August 2019

SeanJeanquoi said:
@Vanilla_Gorilla

I think I'm with @Xenos7 here. I'd really like for CA to make the Southern Realms their own distinct faction with Italian and Spanish alt history themes, pirates and bandits, rather than filling up their roster with every other factions races.

The RoR and Dogs of War could be a unique mechanic with unique units for hire on top of a solid SR faction.

We'll have to differ then. I see fantasy not italy as bland. DoW's potential comes from its mercenary nature.

PoorManatee6197 · August 2019

In my opinion DoW should be something like:

Every unit from their armybook and the ones that appeared in white dwarf as RoR (briganzas besiegers, anacondas amazons and all the other units we know and love)

Then a core army based on generic Tilean (and maybe Estalian) units: Light/heavy pikemen, pavise crossbowmen, mercenari captains, duelist ...

And finally some units of every other race of the warhammer world, because this is a mercenary army: Halfling archers, dwarf adventurers, Norscan pillagers, exiled samurais...

Crajoh · August 2019

For Southern Realms, My personal preference aligns with the TEB mod. I like the LLS and Their starting locations and I like the Pike and Pavisse/crossbow heavy units. Conquistadors, paymaster body guard, etc also make it more unique.

For RoR I would like to see CA explore more of da Vinci’s inventions, Birdmen, etc.

For DoW, the Southern Realms should either get auto access through a unique build chain which allows Southern Realms to use the units and also get money when they hire them out.

Or if DOW are their own semi- horde then Southern Realms should get a discount on hiring or priority to hire.

RikRiorik · August 2019

Galloper Guns, Land ships, basic amd advanced units drawing on the aesthetics of Ricco’s Republicam Guard, the Alcanti Fellowship and that pavise crossbow unit. But also the likes of Vespero’s Vendetta for more agile and less armoured troops.

Basically I want the Regiments of Renown to form the basis for different units but to have a semi coherent aesthetic that half resembles Roman armies yet still somewhat retains their diversified mercenary look.

RikRiorik · August 2019

I am somewhat disappointed actually that the Empire got War Wagons woth artillery. Only because I was of a mind to have fast moving artillery as in Galloper Guns be a special thing that set the Southern Realms somewhat apart.

Also I don’t care what lore you have to maim, kill, burn or twist to have Land Ships be a Southern Realms unit but I NEED them. And the Southern Realms needs it’s own marquee unit. Having them be in the Empire would be neigh on redundant and would be a waste. But for me they are the pinnacle of the beautiful absurdity that is the Warhammer aesthetic and to me they so so fit the Southern Realms. I’m actually a bit sad that Marienburg and the Wasteland are now firmly included in the new Empire mechanic because I wouldn’t have minded if Marienburg was included in the Southern Realms. I know there are lots or lore purists out there who’d disagree on both Marienburg and Land Ships but I have no problem bending or extrapolating a bit from the lore from time to time if I think it fits.

OdTengri · August 2019

RikRiorik said:
I am somewhat disappointed actually that the Empire got War Wagons woth artillery. Only because I was of a mind to have fast moving artillery as in Galloper Guns be a special thing that set the Southern Realms somewhat apart.

Agreed felt like a nail in the coffin for both Kislev and DoW, but who knows maybe they did it to help spread production costs across multiple projects.

RikRiorik said:
Also I don’t care what lore you have to maim, kill, burn or twist to have Land Ships be a Southern Realms unit but I NEED them. And the Southern Realms needs it’s own marquee unit. Having them be in the Empire would be neigh on redundant and would be a waste. But for me they are the pinnacle of the beautiful absurdity that is the Warhammer aesthetic and to me they so so fit the Southern Realms. I’m actually a bit sad that Marienburg and the Wasteland are now firmly included in the new Empire mechanic because I wouldn’t have minded if Marienburg was included in the Southern Realms. I know there are lots or lore purists out there who’d disagree on both Marienburg and Land Ships but I have no problem bending or extrapolating a bit from the lore from time to time if I think it fits.

I agree that Marienburg would have made a great DoW city. They aren't a part of the empire and they are described a frequently using Mercs as part of their defense.

Don't fret about them being a part of the Empire Mechanic, Sylvania is too and they are in the hands of the Vampire Counts. They could do the same with Marinburg/DoW down the road.

SeanJeanquoi · August 2019

@RikRiorik

@OdTengri

From what I've been reading it seems like the Southern Realms is where GW had a lot of fun and in jokes like with Bologs the albion Giant, Curious Geaser, the way Leonardo De Miragliano Died and so on.

this reflects in their units a bit too with the Halfling Hot Pot so I think the Land Ship would feel far more at home in the Southern Realms than it ever would in the hands of the Empire.

I don't think the War Wagon is an issue because the DoW units means that the Southern Realms are going to be sharing units with other factions anyway, regardless of what restrictions they put on the mercenaries.

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